I thought you said something about spirits may only come from a single metaplane, and for all we knew GW might have even been trapped on that plane.

But, back to this current explanation... So when you all break out of your chinese prison, all your friends are going to ignore where they came from, beings and places they left behind, and immediately follow you to Denver? Umm... Okay, that sounds reasonable. NOT! When he escaped the metaplane, why would he even know he might need an army of spirits. Oh, yeah, 'cause great dragons know everything. Who cares if they have been isolated on a metaplane that seems to trap any and all astral travelers - even frickin' Great Dragons for thousands of years.

Here seems to be one point of contention we all do not agree upon: The metaplane that trapped Ghostwalker, and from what has been written about it, anything that went there.

This means total isolation from the home plane. You say a newly arrived spirit gives him a thorough update. I say how does anyone know the newly arrived came from your home plane, especially with the radical changes that have went on. Even if the spirit was from the same plane, the changes to the world it describes would make one believe it was not your home plane.

Ghostwalker cannot summon from the metaplanes. Period.

Another point that is hinky/silly is being able to survive on a metaplane for 5000 years, never running out of essence. And having your meat body surviving the physical world for 5000 years when the slightest damage kills it.


This id why these discussions are usually pointless. But, GW is a special case in being isolated on the metaplane, then almost instantly attacking upon "awakening". Before he took his astral jaunt, I am sure he was at the top of the food chain and had contingencies for known threats. On the astral, I do not realistically see how he can know or prepare for much of anything on this plane. According to the rules, it should be impossible for anyone from this lane to even meet up with him. He would know this, so anyone that comes along giving him updates on this plane has to be seen as passing misinformation.

So how exactly is he preparing for the way magic is now performed and modern technology? Is he automatically casting the higher drain codes for spells (especially illusion) because technological sensors were what he was used to? Ditto for the ones that are quickened or anchored.


Sorry, the being that gets in the hit needs to be the one to allocate Karma Pool to counter Twist Fate.


And this leaves at least an astral signature and probably an astral trail (if nothing else then of astral signatures as it is a sustained power.)


??? An impossibility? No. This also goes back to having a nice fat free spirit of your own. The free spirit is going to see him as easily as you seem to think he can hide from most searchers.

Aside from that tactic, the Masking test is opposed, and though it favors GW, it doesn't mean he will automatically win as you seem to want think. Throw in the hundreds or thousands seeking him and soon someone breaks the masking and then he doesn't have his great dragon stats to defend himself.


Different types of shapeshift, ones a power and the other is a spell, but can still be overcome the same way.


I have read this a bit on this thread. Can you point me to it? I skimmed Denver looking for it.


My numbers were taking into account all the sectors, not just Aztechnology/Aztlan. Since you didn't dipute the first number coming from a single mega, surely you are not going to say that deploying 10-20% of that number is leaving all their other possessions wide open for attack.

I am just going by how it is said Lone Star (therefore Security forces in general) responds. Then multiplying it by the several security forces that would get drawn into the events during Ghostwalkers rampage. Each sectors security forces, each megas security forces, each contracted security provider in each sector... Then throw in sightseers, some shadowrunners in Denver wanting to know what is going on and how they can take advantage of the situation...

Just to get this straight - cause I'm still trying to get my head around it - the Military's solution to combating great dragons is to empower a Free Spirit to the point that it can swat a great dragon. I'm willing to buy it, what I'm wondering is what they intend to do when the spirit decides to stick around and take over Denver (or wherever) for itself?

or maybe because his friends have been feeding him news about things he cares about--such as what happened to his old buddy Zebulon, whom GW apparently liked and trusted well enough that he parked his body nearby when he went off on his 5,000-year metaplanar jaunt. and, as a corollary, what Denver--Zebulon's stomping grounds--is like, who runs it, etc etc etc. obviously, he didn't learn everything, since that first missile apparently surprised the hell out of him, but he learned enough to formulate a fairly effective guerrilla campaign. as for whether or not your Chinese friends will follow you, well, that depends on how persuasive you are. i'll note again that GW is the greatest manipulator of spiritkind that the world has ever, and likely will ever, know. so i kinda think he could make the kind of spirit friends he needs.


i'm not ready to put all my faith in a few chapters from Shadowrun novel written from a human's POV.


most of the other GDs managed it.


you call it dragon fanboyism (or, rather, Fuchs does), i call it paying attention to how the rules work. someone with tens of thousands of karma, who has focused much of their immortal life on magic? they're going to figure out pretty quickly that they need to cast physical illusions to fool non-living things. mana spells only affect living beings, after all--it's not a huge leap. other issues can be dealt with similarly. as for getting information, see previous portions of this post.


i've seen nothing in the game that leads me to believe the megacorps have figured out that particular exploit. besides, jesus christ, who would want to? binding a free spirit is dangerous. as for searchers vs masking, i think GW would be willing to take my chances, given that the target number would be close to--if not well over--100. besides, so what--some punk mage or spirit breaks it, GW pwns them and shifts form again.


the one whose page number i remember is YotC page 73. the Pueblo rep, Pope, talks about behind-the-scenes militarization.


that still leaves the problem of perceived invasion. the different nations involved in Denver remained fractured even while GW was running around in their base killing their mans, and none of them were more worried about him than they were about sparking an international incident. pulling in thousands of mages and tens of thousands of spirits definitely counts.

all the extra spirits and astral forms--gawkers, etc.--just make it easier on GW. with them as cover, his own spirits can more easily scout around. and when your masking is as high as GW's should be, 10k astral observers are of almost no more concern than one. let's say ten guys, out of the 10k astral observers, spot him after he shapeshifts. they're going to be screaming "i see him, he's over there"--and so are the hundreds of guys who glitched on their astral perception rolls, plus the spirits GW left behind to sow confusion.

Don't listen to this man over here mumbling to himself!

Please, continue with this fascinating and perfectly logical idea.

But if you don't want Dragons and Elves why not play CP2020 (or 2030 or whatever it is they're up to now)? In that setting nothing but another megacorp challenges a megacorp. It's more Gibbsonesque and seems to be more in keeping with what you expect from a cyberpunk setting than what you're getting.

I think I stated at one time, that they make a deal. They find a free spirit that doesn't have an interest in this plane. It gets enormouse power for agreeing to do something over there that is relatively easy for it, then can go on with its enhanced life.

Example: bind a F2 great form free spirit. Explain the deal. If it doesn't want it, set it free. Find one that wants it.
Analogy example: you agree to potentially swat a fly on the moon (no cost or inconveniance to you) for a billion dollars, just no ever going to the moon again.

And I just had a thought that a spirit of the elements that has Magical Guard would probably be a good candidate.


See, this is a point that we cannot agree on, and you keep making it pivotal.

If he was so up to date, a missile should not have surprised him at all. Similar tech, like cannonballs, have been around for centuries, so it doesn't sound like he got a tech update for centuries. Following this line, what technological detection devices were around centuries ago? None, tht would inhibit magic or need the physical version of the spells. So we are left with another gap in defenses or GM/Dev caveat that great dragons will cast the highest drain spell just because it covers something they don't even know exists and have not been told exists.


Not the same. The others inhabited their bodies, so got the benefit of their Body attribute to resist damage. Meat bodies of the astrally projecting are defenseless and supposedly the slightest damage kills them.


The exploit of feeding karma to a spirit to increase its force? I'm not talking about the exploit of free spirit to free spirit, just investing a bunch of karma. A megacorporation has the assets to pull it off.

TN 100??? Maybe you should reread the Masking rules in MitS.


So running in Denver should be a cakewalk because there is not going to ever be enough astral backup or physical backup for that matter. That is not how I have ever seen or heard it played.


I have a feeling your probabilities of success and failure are off a bit, just by listening to how often critical failures happened in SR3. The rest of the post is about as optimistically biased.



The real purpose of Ghostwalker, for me, was to have me quit being interested in reading about the setting. It sounded silly, or like BS, and then other things too started sounding silly, or like BS. It has become a case of the developers trying to think up strange twists, or weird pairings as the SOP. When you keep saying I didn't see that coming to yourself, I think the whole system is hurt because you quit having any idea of what to expect and soon no expectations.

So the military are willing to risk the possibility that said spirit might be... how shall I put this... lying to them to get all that juicy karma?

"No sir, no interest whatsoever. I'll just take all that power you've given me, swat that silly dragon, and then buy myself a little metaplane somewhere, settle down and raise some little spirits of the elements. Seriously, you can trust me, sir. Would I lie to you?"

Let's not try to get some weird rules into the discussion, or else, Aztlan would since long have managed to conquer the world /(and kick Ghostwalker's hiney) with one blood spirit and their currently faulty energy drain rule.
Bloodzilla will always win.

i have a hard time imagining a F2 free spirit that wouldn't take this deal. i also have a hard time imagining a free spirit who would stick to the deal once they reached, y'know, F1,000,000 or whatever. and given that such a spirit existed, i have a hard time imagining it living long enough to reach F1,000,000 before some less-altruistic spirit came along and ate it in order to try and move in on its source of free karma.


it doesn't strike me as odd at all that there is a difference between hearsay and actually getting shot in the face with a missile. you'll note that he wasn't that surprised by it--he had enough shielding up to soak the hit without taking a scratch.


that's not quite how it works. how it works, according to SR3 page 173, under the section While You Were Out..., is that anyone who finds your body while you're astrally projecting can easily deal it a D wound. so, yes, if someone had found GW's body and gotten past whatever defenses had been left to protect it, they could have killed him. obviously, that didn't happen--just as it didn't happen to the other surviving GDs. it did happen to some dragons, maybe even GDs, as indicated by the legends regarding Sir George and the rumors of downcycle hunting by IEs.


i did. TN = magic. getting 100 magic only costs 11,439 karma, assuming no ordeals or groups. i suppose technically the TN would be between 90 and 99, tending towards 99, but still. added bonus, threshold = GW's grade - observer's grade. so, y'know, good luck getting the 78-87 successes you need to break his masking. i hadn't thought of that, earlier.

if you're stingier with the karma, it only costs 2,064 karma to reach magic 50; i'd give GW pretty good odds of not being spotted even at 28-37 successes required at TN 40-49.

(edited to reflect the fact that GDs start at magic 12, not magic 0)


i haven't heard it described as a cakewalk, but i recall several Denver sources (i'm wanting to say NAGtNA, but i'm too lazy to go dig it out) stating that the borders could be used to one's advantage.


a few hundred guys glitching out of ten thousand is optimistic? hell, maybe it is, i'm not a math guy. regardless, there are going to be a lot more people glitching than there are spotting him (it turns out, there are lots of numbers higher than zero!), and GW's spirits can still sow distraction amongst the observers.

I am so tempted to start an SR3 run in Denver right now... And make my runners be embattled for the long haul. After reading this topic, I have so many ideas (and a lot of unanswered questions).

MFB it might be optimistic, the maths part of my brain suggests a few dozen false positives, but apart from that good reasoning.

Does anyone here remember the last time MFB, Synner and I agreed on ANYTHING?

we all agree that i am awesome. but then, that's like agreeing on gravity!

I don't remember agreeing on you being awesome... awe...something, just not sure if it is awesome

oh and as for that gravity thing, it seems more like a passing fad. besides I think it might just be misread acceleration of curved space

For that... just look for Werewolf: The Forsaken "Hunting Grounds: The Rockies" - The Version of Denver in it was once controlled by a powerfull yet foul spirit called an "Idigam".

As far as I know, as long as Denver has existed (and maybe even longer), there have been stories and legends and myths about a 'Denver Spirit'.

But only at Bronco's games....

So every free spirit that makes a karma deal is willing to break its word? No wonder it's so hard for them to accumulate karma!

But I am assuming there are nigh infinite numbers of metaplanes, metaplanes that are like earth at the height of the roman empire, metaplanes like earth during Pirates of the Caribbean, metaplanes like the old wild west, metaplanes like prohibition Chicago, metaplanes like the 1970's, metaplanes like last week. Why should the spirit torque anyone off when it can keep its word and go to another metaplane similar to this one?

Still not good enough?

When the summoners bind it, it has to do what they say. They ask if it is going to keep its word.

Still not good enough?

When the summoners bind it, they point out they know its true name. If it decides to break its word, they will publish its true name worldwide, then everyone in the corporation/military/security organization will summon it at the same appointed time. Mundanes can summon by knowing the true name. Zebulon got shattered into a few pieces, this should break the spirit into enough pieces to not have to worry about it. Even if Zebulon was a fluke, knowing it happened once should be enough of a deterrent not to break its word when it need not. Then the prospect of continuing harassment...

I think the next sourcebook should be Spirit vs Dragon Wars: the End of the Scaly Menace.


Cool, then let's not get into even stranger mystic dragon special exclusion rules. The only weird rule I can see is giving karma to a spirit, which is pretty black and white. An organization doing it can feed a lot of karma to one spirit and grow it nice and fat.


First, it only needs to be about Force 100, Spirit Energy 100 to pretty much have the advantage on any Great Dragon. That is all attributes at 200. Pump it up to F/SE 1000 or 10,000 and it would be like swatting flies.

How is some other spirit going to horn in on the free karma? I am assuming the spirit is ordered not to use any karma until the organization allows it. They would want to keep it at F2 so that a magician could perform the conjuring ritual improving the donating ratio, that is only a wise use of resources. Another spirit needs to break through what security they have, mask its aura to look exactly like the org's spirit, all the while getting rid of said spirit without anyone noticing, or continuing to notice as it is fed karma. You are now grasping at straws if you think this has a chance of working. Oh yeah, it needs to know if, where, and when all this is happening.


If you cannot admit that killing someone astrally projecting is easier than killing someone sleeping, then our idea of the rules differs.


And I am going by the range stated for Great Dragons, not coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Even using your numbers, nice astral quest karma payoff, see above vs F100/SE100 and how easily it can be increased.


100/10,000=1/100 1 critical glitch per 100 beings. If you are using morons, maybe.
6*6*6*6=1296
So expect one critical glitch for every 1296 beings throwing 4 dice.
Expect one critical glitch for every 7776 beings throwing 5 dice.
Expect one critical glitch for every 46,656 beings throwing 6 dice.
Those throwing more dice are probably not going to critical glitch and have an even better chance of spotting.

Yes, I think your numbers are way frickin off.

or GW could simply use that spirit hack for himself, and run around with a contingent of f100 bound spirits. if a corporation can whip up such a spirit in the ~50 years since the Awakening, GW could have done so innumerable times during his long life. he doesn't have his own megacorp, of course, but it would be easy for him to cut a deal with a few backwater kingdoms every 50 years or so. to heck with a retinue--he'd have an army of them.


please point out where i said anything like that. what i actually said was that a) someone who is astrally projecting does not get instagibbed by 'the slightest damage', and that b) GW's physical body is likely to have been well-hidden and well-guarded.


so am i. DotSW page 180: "Great dragons are all initiates of considerable power and high grade (usually Grade 10 or higher, except for very young great dragons).... The exact limits of draconic magic (and metamagic) are left for the gamemaster to decide according to the needs of the adventure and the campaign." 10 is the low end, the high end is whatever works.


*shrug* like i said, there are still probably going to be a lot more people glitching than spotting him. hell, let's knock GW's initiate grade down to 15--he's quite possibly the most accomplished conjurer who ever lived, so i think giving him a whopping 5 grades above the minimum is fair. that means that only grade 3+ initiates need apply, and only those grade 3+ initiates who have 9+ magic (if you got cyberware and didn't geas it, thanks for playing). spirits need at least 3 spirit energy and 9 force, or they automatically fail--and since summoned spirits don't have SE, none of them get to roll. out of 10,000 theoretical observers at any one time--and to be clear, i'm giving you 10,000 Awakened, astrally-perceiving beings within visual range of an occurrence taking place in the midst of a bunch of skyscrapers; in reality, i doubt you could fit 10k people in visual range of the event, much less guarantee that all of them are Awakened and looking in the right direction despite all the destruction taking place--out of those 10,000 observers, how many qualify? let's say half (again, ridiculously generous).

that puts 5,000 people at the extreme outside who even have the opportunity to try and get between 5 and 9 successes--the vast majority of them tending towards 9--on a TN 27 test. anybody want to run the numbers and tell me how many observers will be able to break GW's masking, thereby getting the opportunity to spot him when he changes into a mouse (or whatever) and drops through a sewer grate before shapeshifting again? if it's more than 7, well, tisoz was right--fewer people will be glitching than breaking GW's masking, assuming he's only grade 15. i still don't see it being enough to matter; they'll just lose him when he drops out of sight through the sewer grate and then fail to break his masking when they follow him down the drain.

Damn, I forgot the whatever anyone can have, dragons can have twice that many rule.

Forget all the reasons that were just pointed out when I was arguing it could be done, because a dragon, especially the spirit specialist Ghostwalker, gets to ignore them, not worry about them, or just plain is so good it would not apply to them.

Humanity is stupid enough to take the risk of buffing super spirits. Supposedly dragons are smarter than that. Humanity has few other options, and is the one menace that much worse than the potential other? I do not believe even stupid dragons are going to create beings that are anywhere near as powerful as themselves much less more powerful.

GW had no need for such a contingent prior to the 6th world. Does he get to forget the rules of no astral conjuring? He figured out he needed some and whipped them up in the few moments between emerging from the rift and going on his rampage?

It just occurred to me that sitting in a jail cell for 5000 years should not earn hardly any karma, after all, it is less interesting than doing the laundry.


Damn, done in by the phrase whatever works. Who cares if it is out of line, unbelievable, or inconsistent with its own guidelines.


I'm figuring every magician worth his salt is going to have a bound free spirit in the F10-20/SE10-20 range. Every magician I have played or seen played that a GM allowed to happen had a band of them. Please note GM allowed, because they disrupt game balance in a heartbeat. But the point isuch spirits are going to have good chances of seeing through the masking.

Then there is the secret weapon mega spirit that GWs masking is going to get a big surprise when it makes that spirit laugh.

if it works for humans, it works for GW--and he'd have figured it out millennia ago, being the greatest conjurer evars. if it doesn't work for humans, then it doesn't work for GW either. pick your poison.


not really a concern. he's been around for two prior Awakened ages, plenty of time to have earned a kabajillion karma.


i'm not particularly concerned with things that a reasonable GM wouldn't allow. any reasonable GM would have managed to use those spirits to kill off the mages they're bound to already. and as far as the secret mega spirit, well, if it exists, it's one against and army. i think it will probably be otherwise occupied.

You know what I don't get about the Ghostwalker affair? How come we're all playing a game where you can't take things at face value, and yet everyone is perfectly willing to take Ghostwalker's takeover of Denver at face value.

In order to make my point I'm going to make some assumptions. They are:

1. Ghostwalker, being one of the oldest and most powerful great dragons, is without human peer in magic. Combine magical abilities with his natural toughness, and he can survive attacks from many different kinds of heavy weapons.

2. Ghostwalker is *NOT* invincible. He can not survive a prolonged confrontation with forces that have extremely powerful weaponry.

Given the first two assumptions, it would be impossible for Ghostwalker to conduct the campaign that he did against a 6th world city an win. However, we have to reconcile those assumptions with the fact that Ghostwalker did indeed walk into Denver, and won in a game of urban warfare.

For those of you who hate the concept of Ghostwalker winning with might and magic I give you assumption 3.

3. Ghostwalker had help in his conquest of Denver.

I mean, this *is* Shadowrun, after all. What's a great dragon rampage without shadowrunners secretly backing him up? The whole situation makes more sense once you start tossing in shadowrunners, mercs, bribed politicians, the politics of the Denver situation, the dirty dealings of the Azzies, and the aid of the nuts who believe in dragons as the saviors of metahumanity. Aztlan and Aztechnology have plenty of enemies that would love to see a Great Dragon kick them in the nuts. There could even be megacorps throwing in their secret support for the dragon in exchange for promises of help with magical research. (Although, hurting Aztechnology's market share can only help the other megas.)

Mainly I credit politicians for GW's win. Say whatever you want about military technology and capabilities. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, ruins the ability of military forces to win a battle like a politician. Nothing.

Not to beat a dead horse by bringing this topic back to the front page but I felt like the original question 'the wizzworm is doing what?' never really got looked at in all of the discussion on how the Denver takeover happened in the first place.

So I'll throw in my 2 cents on Ghost Walker's motivations for what happened as far as I understand them and what I see as his plans for the future. My memory is a bit fuzzy on some of this so forgive me for anything that's inaccurate in my post. I'll try to mark stuff I don't remember exactly with a (?).

First of all Dunk was Ghost Walker's brother. I don't remember rightly rather or not the two of them got a long but rather they did or not I figure that has to mean something in Dragon Culture. So Ghost Walker's brother gets killed and his death creates a rift that Ghost Walker later escapes through. The powers that be with in Aztechnology and Aztlan are the ones responsible for his brothers death (?).

So Ghost Walker escapes from his astral prison and probably the first thing on his mind is revenge. He kicks Aztlan out of Denver and basically takes over the city. But this is only the beginning I would imagine.

Before I get any deeper into this lets look at the motivations of Great Dragons overall. A lot of this thread has been based around what 'can' take out a Great Dragon. That's horrors and more specifically Verjigorm. Most of what the Great Dragons are doing now is based around that. They know what's coming. The immortal elves do as well. From a metaplot perspective it looks like Lofwyr is just doing what dragons do, massing great amounts of wealth and power. The truth is that there is a GD and IE conspiracy but it has little to do with some great power play. They're consolidating because again they know what's on the horizon. Dunk's great plan was to guide metahumanity in such a way that the world could be prepared for when the shit hits the fan. Lofwyr is using SK in much the same way, though his motivations might be more self-centered then Dunk's were the plan is still the same, deal with what's on the horizon. Because of technology the Great Dragons awakened into a world where it might be possible to actually fight the coming invasion head on rather then hiding out as has been done time and time before.

Now maybe I'm making some assumptions here and playing the plot device card but it seems to me that Ghost Walkers attack was very much targeted against those who killed his brother. He went in, kicked the Azzies out of Denver, and is now apparently just chilling out. But why Denver and why stop there? Why not rampage all the way down into Mexico? Why not take out those who are attempting to speed up the coming of what all the dragons fear as well as the very same group that killed his brother? He's biding his time and I think that's exactly his intentions. Denver would be a perfect staging point for a future attack on Aztlan and honestly if somebody doesn't do something about what the Azzies are doing everybody will get fucked.

Anyway, like I said, that's just my 2 cents on him and what his motivations are and also as I said it's been awhile since I read dot6w and even longer since I read Harlequenn's Back or associated story arcs.

Hi, long time lurker, first time thread-o-mancer. Wanted to add some pertinent information to the discussion (even though I missed it by about 15 days), beginning with the most informative post, the last one!

Indirectly, Dunklezhan's death was an incredible feat of blood magic, by Dunkie himself, used to create the Dragon's Heart, which would level out the "spikes" created by both Aztlan's incredible use of blood magic, and the effects of the great ghost dance that was opening ways to the furthest Metaplanes, bringing in things like the Shedim and the undescribed "Horrors". Any Shadowrunner should see this as pertinent information (if they knew it) because, if the world ends, their corp running days end as well. In a way Dunkie died both because of Aztlan and the Native American's abuse of magic.

Well, there was the army of spirits that followed him out of his prison. Oh yes! He had friends! He took out several Greater Blood Spirits in the process of kicking Aztlan out of the area, as well as severely depleting any military they might have had to take it all back with. In addition he was apparently hunting some unknown spirit types of considerable power.

Which is specifically what Ghostwalker did. Now remember, he wasn't making just a straight push from the rift to Aztlan, he did a lot of guerrilla tactics attacking seemingly random targets. You can be assured that each one of them housed some secret threat that metahumanity was still trying to figure out. Specifically places and people like the "Unity Policlub" president and headquarters, the Aztlan Council Hall, and the Pueblo Corporate Counil president. He didn't just attack these places, he brought arsenals of spells, spirits and awakened creatures to bear on what is now rubble.

There's a good amount of extra things to think on when it comes to ghost walker.

• The Sioux and UCAS ceased fire on Ghost Walker part way through his rampage, reportedly given orders from high up (Daviar, in the case of the UCAS). Someone pulled some major strings in GW's favor while Ghostwalker took out some highly places and powerful spirits and people. Now, none of the dragons were surprised by his appearance, or his actions, they each gave condolences as well as welcome greetings to someone they had apparently been awaiting the return of.
• He picked up his body somewhere in the Colorado mountains, so likely had a good stash there (We know Dunkie had at least a good dozen hordes in various places.
• He had a meeting, shortly after his appearance in Denver, with Daviar, Ryan Mercury, SilveryK, and some other powerful and strange chummers. He certainly built up his friend base quickly, and chose the right people (all of whom happened to be in Dunkies inner circle).
• As the minutes from the council members in Denver can attest, Ghostwalker has had considerable foresight in his decisions, and pulled more than a few strings to get where he is on top of Denver. Making the deal with the CAS to both oust the Aztlan military and transfer the remaining Aztlan lands to them in return. To those who say it was GW who broke the treaty of Denver, remember that it was Aztlan who broke it first by landing troops!

Now, this all goes into the discussion of "What kind of power does a new dragon have?"

As to Denver itself, GW's spoken intentions were to regain his land, much as Hestaby or several other Dragons made land grabs, his was just bigger. In doing so he significantly changed, not broke, the treaty of Denver. It was rewritten to exclude Aztlan, include Ghostwalker as the supreme ruler of Denver, and institute the Free Range Zone Troopers, turning a treaty that previously worked to tie several enemies together, into a free defense state more like the EU or America to it's states are currently, with Ghost Walker as a monarch/president rolled into one.


Most of my info was from the Year of the Comet (Always a fun read!), and a lot of it is quite interesting, even if a lot of the more indepth is just left at conjecture, it's usually accurate conjecture when it's in a sourcebook.


Now, a lot of you may be thinking "But I already read all that!" but some/many of the GMs out there will have already figured out ways that GW can be of some effect to a Shadowrun campaign. A lot of what happens next is open, remember it's only been ten years since he arrived, he's got to be building up his power base: Secret runs, sending out missions through a third party, trying to weaken opponents and build up both his mystical, physical, and temporal power base. Heck you might have done runs for him without even knowing it!

More like Thread Necromancer.