Maybe if you're using vehicles out of the book, possibly, a tricked out armored drone or car less so. But then again what's the point of being a rigger if you don't trick out your gear? Also there are ways of negating modifiers from dumpshock too. Then again without hot sim the chances of getting hit go up significantly [edit: as apparently Jaid has pointed out].


This is highly debatable and depends on where specializations are put to use. A rigger taking a Pilot: Ground Craft 6 (this covers everything from cars to all ground drones and crawlers) at chargen can still take different skills at 4 and then specialize those—for instance: Pilot Aircraft (Remote Operation) (this covers pretty much all aerial drones) and Gunnery (Ballistic) 6—that covers a lot of ground and I find it hard to believe you would qualify such a rigger as a one-trick pony.

The real issue is that you have to spend BPs on hacking skills, hardware and software or you're toast against a competent hacker - though the Program + Skill Matrix mechanic allows riggers to shift some BPs from Atts to resources.


You are correct it should have been either or, and, yes, Augmentation has not been errata'd.


I stand corrected. Though its actually: 7 and 4IP or 9 and 3IP (without specializations, which as I mentioned above, are not to be ignored).

Also you are mistaken about maxing out burning your versatilty since 6+ of those dice are not vehicle-specific.

BTW - Did I mentioned the Edge (pun intended) riggers have over Pilots?


Your mileage may vary.

I do have to admit that Hermit is correct when pointing out that Riggers in comparison to other characters that cannot Rig at all (SR3) are infinitely better then when Riggers compared to other characters/Pilot software who can Rig somewhat well (SR4).

12 Dice versus 0 > 12 dice versus 8

This also the case with Hacking in SR4.

I disagree with Hermit that it is a Bad Thing about being a Rigger or Hacker in SR4. I like the flexibility and variety that ensues in SR4 builds.

Erm, don't forget that the VCR bonuses etc. don't just boost your driving skills, they boost your Vehicle Skill tests as well, so a Rigger with Pilot Ground Craft 5 w/Wheeled Specialization and Gunnery 5 w/Ballistics Specialization jumped into a tricked out vehicle can and will school your ass Mad Max style. Drones are fairly powerful in combat because they can ignore recoil so easily but are limited by their ratings. A jumped in Rigger with a mounted Heavy or Vehicle Weapon can paste even a Samurai fairly easy. Dodging fully compensated Full Auto Bursts being fired by a guy with a double digit dicepool isn't for the faint of heart. Fun part is the Sam doesn't even have a way of immediately telling which drone is an "average" threat and which one is about to throw down the full burst from hell.

There's a cure for death in SR4? There's a way for cybered characters to be instantly healed with any chance of success? Admitedly, I am not that familiar with how healing magic works now in regard to the cybered character ... but if a drone piloted in hot sim is damaged, every time, the rigger has to resist that damage. if the drone is sot down, he ADDITIONALLY receives dumpshock. Also, the drone is damaged. Those double damage penalties eat up the edge a rigger has very soon.


Typo, my bad.


Sure, but 2 of them rely on ghot sim, which isn't that useful, as stated above. If using rigger booster nanites, you get a maximum of 2 IP, which is pretty crappy compared to a drone's 3 IP.


Sure, but Edge is to be spent wisely, and if you use it in veery fight, you're out really soon. Butyeah, that counts as an advantage.

My points on adept hackers and technomancers still stands, though. And I'm still feeling like riggers (mundane riggers) are next to useles compared against these, about evenly matched against a streetsam driver (basically, a combat-oriented character piloting a vehicle vuia AR, without VCR or rigger boosters), a bit better than evenly matched with a decent drone, and certainly lack definition as a viable archetype (the 'versatility' just means that they're supposed to be the fill-in stooge, from what I gather, it's just spinning it into a nice word).


Like how? +2DP, -1 Threshold (minimum 1)? Whopee, that'll teach them ...


The math, for instance.


considering these people who are very familiar with the rules missed the incompatibility of rigger boosters and simsense booste, that tells me something about how familiar they are with the rules indeed.


Numbers (preferrably correct ones)? Or are you just going to repeat this?


As it mainly is about personal attacks, what do you expect?

More like 4 dice. I know it's hard to wrap your brain around, but if you're going to be good at being a Rigger, it helps to take the appropriate advantages.

My point is there are ways/implants for the rigger to ignore their penalties modifiers. Just a high Willpower (5 should do) and a good Bio-Feedback Filter (6 costs you all of 6000 nuyen) is going to reduce most non-critical feedback damage to 1 or 2 Stun (if its more than that you're going to be dumpshocked anyway since most drones will have been totaled) and there are a number of ways of ignoring those modifiers. Plus hot sim gives a rigger a fair shake at not even getting hit, something that the specialist street sam driver won't have the benefit of.


Again I beg to disagree. Hot sim is very much an advantage if the game is played as presented and all the combat modifiers come into play. It not only significantly enhances the rigger's offensive dicepools, but gives him/the vehicle significant defensive dicepools too. Furthermore the impact of hot sim feedback can be limited by a number of different methods.


True. Edge is to be used wisely, but the point is rigger's get to use it when they need and Pilots don't. That makes all the difference.


From the discussion above I think all that's been established is:

• that a rigger will be significantly better than evenly matched with a drone;
• that rigger Adepts will be more effective but more specialized and less versatile;
• that the specialized street sam driver (to be able to fill both roles) will be competition in the narrowest of vehicle choices;
• and that no one's really sure how a technomancer rigger bears up except that its probably going to be a BP sink and expensive (like all technomancers).

The only way we're going to come to a conclusion here is if you post builds for those characters you feel threaten the rigger's dominance and we compare with some practical examples. Maybe Jaid can provide a rigger for a baseline comparison.


Or perhaps, just perhaps, "these people" were falling back on something they know about future errata and simply happened to forget that it hasn't yet been posted... Stranger things have happened.

Mundane Riggers were next to useless against Adept Riggers in SR3 as well ... in the Adept's area of expertise. Pretty much the same as SR4. The Rigger will typically have a broader skill base, but the Adept will be better in his specialty.

Adept powers did NOT work in either the matrix or SR3's full-VR rigging (where vehicle skills were useful). A driver adept with an attuned vehicle was severely crippled against an SR3 rigger, even if you sink 500 Karma in either, because the rigger (VCR 3 assumed) rarely rolls against something other than 2, whereas the adept is hit with modifiers left and right. The adept's DP would be very impressive even compared to a very good rigger, but 20 versus 8 has no chance of generatinga s many successes as 12 against 2.


Maybe my GM denied me boni then, but in my experience, this is how you get an SR4 rigger killed.


Since there're only very few gamers within the guild of seers, jaid should consider himself extemly lucky. I know I am not so fortunate. Though errating that would give riggers a much needed boost.

Offensive dicepools, it is much easier (at least just to find the rules) to boost a pilots attack then it is to boost a riggers.
Pilot:
Pilot 6 (limited by response)
Autosoft 6 (limited by pilot)
12 dice

Rigger:
Sensor (Base Vehicle Sensor (1-3), or Vision Enhancements on a camera (1-3), or just assume target by radar (1-6), or varies by sensor?)
Gunnery 6 (This is easy with every mounted weapon being in one skill)
Specializations
Smart-Link
VR Bonus?

The sensors really throw riggers for a loop right now. We're just not sure how to go about upgrading them, and exactly how to use them when we need to. Pilots don't even need or use sensors to target. I'm not saying its broken, it just still confuses me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)



Now that's just cheating, but I always look forward to errata. In any gaming book I never expect the first printing to be flawless, especially with multiple writers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You are aware that Adepts could also get implants in SR3, right? And they could Geas away the Essence loss as well to lessen or even nullify the impact on their Powers (which they cannot do in SR4). Adept Riggers in SR3 were basically Riggers with any appropriate Adept Powers stacked on top. They just plain kicked the shit out of mundane Riggers.

a) full VR + Adept powers = don't mix, for all I know of SR3's rules. But admittedly, I'm not an awakened character player, never have been, so I might be wrong. I'm very sude matrix and adept powers don't mix, though, because I once tried to build The Major in SR3.
b) Geasing away 5 points of essence loss is seriously crippling even to a high karma adept. Besides, such a concept is extremly hard to justify ingame and won't pass any GM, whereas adept hackers are explicitly mentioned in street magic, if I am not mistaken.
c) Thanks to much reduced essence costs, rigger adepts now are viable without being extremly crippled.

Actually, IIRC, Adept powers in 3rd ed (and in 4th) could be used in full VR. But only certan ones. I don't have my books with me but I recall that the powers that boost skills could be used. Which would give an adept rigger many bonus dice to play with but only for one skill. Given a 6 magic and a 6 skill you could give an adept rigger +6 dice to 4 driving skills or 2 driving skills and gunnery. And in 4th they get better thanks to trodes allowing you to go hotsim (I don't recall that being the case in 3rd) now you dont have to waste power points on cyber....

CERTAINLY not for computer, because I well remmeber me thinking that I'd have to break rules for my Motoko Kusanagi NPC. I'm unsure about driving skills, though those were a lot more fragmented in SR3 (I have sunk cloe to 300 Karma into having all that make good sense on 4 to 5 for my ancient rigger character).

once again, there are no rating 6 autosofts. they go up to rating 4. that is all. if you want to make up equipment, then sure the drone can be better. additionally, that drone is further not chargen legal because it cannot have a pilot rating of 6 at chargen, the best the availability cap will allow is 4.

hermit, you're assuming that the vehicle will get damaged but not destroyed. most of the sedans in SR4 can get up to at least 16 points of armor... if anything damages the vehicle through that, the vehicle is probably totalled, never mind worrying about the rigger suffering from feedback. most drones you'll use in combat will be running 9 or 12 points of armor (depending on body 3 or 4). that will bounce most attacks that are not designed to destroy heavily armored things right off the bat (remember, DVs lower than armor rating are turned to stun, which does nothing against vehicles, and also remember that burst damage does not apply to penetrating armor).

so yes, really... as a general rule, for any well-armored vehicle or drone, the attack will either bounce off with no effect, or the drone is a twisted heap of smoking metal/plastic anyways and the ability to pilot said drone in the future is somewhat of a moot point.

furthermore, something as readily available as stim patches can negate quite a bit of stun damage modifiers, as can a number of drugs, and as can also something like an adrenaline pump (that being the most expensive solution). so yes, 3 IPs base, more if edge (or possibly drugs) are used. and really, the 4th IP is not that big of a deal most of the time, since a lot of fights will end by the 2nd or 3rd IP anyways.

i never said control rig boosters and simsense boosters could be used together. i didn't specifically mention them not working together, because you have mentioned it before, and i didn't feel the need to repeat myself. i assumed that since you have mentioned it, you don't need to be reminded of that fact.

Yes, because dead riggers don't pilot things. Which makes Hot Sim a lot less attractive. The damage you take when hot-simming is physical, not mental, and this is NOT getting fixed with stimpatches.


Right, that was Synner quoting your example, but that could easily be read into it.

It's Stun damage (per p. 239) unless they've changed it: any damage to the drone, apply half that much as Stun to the rigger (if in hot sim), resisted by Wil+Biofeedback.

no, you're missing the point. the rigger is not taking damage when the vehicle gets hit most of the time unless the vehicle is also getting totaled. it's an odd effect of both hardened armor and high armor rating objects, that any given attack will either bounce off, or pretty much destroy the vehicle in question. there is very little middle ground in this generally speaking.

additionally, the damage from getting hit while jumped into a vehicle is stun damage. stun damage can be negated in many ways, and it doesn't matter where it came from; if it's stun damage, it's stun damage. a stim patch will negate stun damage that comes from a punch, and it will also negate stun damage that comes from rigging in full VR because they are not different. stun damage is stun damage is stun damage.

hot sim is still very much a viable route when it comes to rigging.

It's more like this:

Best Drone Vs. Best Unawakened Rigger Shootout
6 Pilot
4 Targeting Autosoft

10 Dice

Best Rigger
Sensor: 3
Hotsim Bonus: 2
VCR Bonus: 2
Gunnery: 4-7
Specialization: 2

13-16 plus the ability to use Edge

Now, let's limit them to chargen legal

Best Chargen Drone

Pilot 4
Targeting 4
8 Dice

Best Chargen Legal Unawakened Rigger
Sensor: 3
Hotsim Bonus: 2
VCR Bonus: 2
Gunnery: 4-6
Specialization: 2
13-15 Dice plus the ability to use Edge.

It's not an insignificant margin and the only bottleneck preventing Riggers from busting things wide open is Sensors. Letting them have any more dice would be brutal, since weapon mounts already absorb recoil easily. A series of full auto bursts from a skilled and jumped in rigger is absolutely murderous. You can mow down multiple people per pass pretty easily if they're near eachother.

+2 for a Smartlink mod to the sensors. Makes 10.

Fine. Give it to the Rigger then as well, if you're going to go that route. I personally prefer to leave smartlinks out of it since we're talking about turret mounted weapons and almost purely electronic interfaces in the first place. It's not exactly clear whether or not you can have a smartlink in this case, and if anything, I wouldn't be surprised if the Rigger could have a smartlink but not the Drone. A drone is making use of a purely electronic method of targeting in the form of a Targeting Autosoft in the first place.

and is possible for the rigger also, leaving the difference in the dicepool the same.

Gunnery is a vehicle skill. Thats +2 from the rig on top of the things mentioned.

Dodge should always be specialised on ranged combat and is the most important skill for any rigger (unless the new FAQ will allow to dodge with vehicle skill), so it should always be the rating 6 skill. Skimping here might prove expensive.


Any vehicle you use should have at least response 5 (self-made for some 2k¥), and armor modification will have even rotordrones with an armor of 9.

So you are looking at Response+(handling)+4 = 9+ for base defense. With dodge, that becomes 17+ for full defense. You could add Reakt from Augmentation, for defense 11+/19+. The samurai should IMO rely on gymnastics instead of dodge, and will pay more for premade upgrade parts.

The defense roll just has to reduce net hits, full avoidance is usually not required. If the drone is destroyed, you take at most it´s full monitor/2 damage, resisted with willpower+biofeedback filters. That will leave 1-3 boxes of stun, but a samurai would have died in that place. A pilot 5 running on the same system has defense pools of 5/9, that is useful but can be destroyed.

Consequence: Unless the opposition brings heavy weapons or heavily augmented guards, you can rely on the pilot programs to defend an area. If you jump into a drone, you can bring as much firepower to bear as a samurai. That is the basis for the drone network I wrote about; whereever the opposition is coming from, you have a drone that you can jump into. Smaller spy drones can scout ahead, and as they are not armed, they can spend many actions on full defense in addition to being small and maneuverable on top of being stealthy, as in "not even touching the ground".

Uhm, no? Source?


The book says "damage", not "stun damage", which means physical damage, usually.


Again, I looked that up, and the book said to resist the drone's full sustained damage, which then translates as 'damage', meaning physical.

Some numbers:

Drone:
Response 5, Pilot 4, Autosofts (Clearsight, Maneuver, EW, Targeting, Defense) 6 (for easier upgrading, later on), Smartgun, Firewall 6
Dicepools assuming Pilot limits the rating of the autosoft.
DP for Shooting things: 10
DP for seeing things: Sensor+4
DP for evading: 4/8+handling
DP for maneuvering: 8+handling -1 to thresholds (p.103 Ars, p159 SR4)
3 Passes + however many passes the "rigger" (who may or may not be a full magician or street sam) brings to the table
Cost: 31k in Software which we'll round up to 6 BP so he can goldplate the Smartgun.
Pros:
Assuming the drone tags along, he does not care about WiFi Blocking paint and is less concerned about jamming than a rigger sitting in the van remoting the drones.
If a hacker is available statting up a second drone of the same type costs nothing extra.
Controlling the drone costs one action whenever parameters change
Cons:
Is not a rigger.
Getting different drone will cost the full amount of BP/Money.
The drone has a dog brain.

Rigger
Piloting Skill (applicable drone) 5, Gunnery (applicable weapon) 5, Perception 4, EW 4 (which I'll waive the cost of since its pretty much a given that ever character will invest in this skill), Smartgun, Control Rig, Response 5, Hot Sim
DP for Shooting things: 18
DP for seeing things: Sensor +4
DP for evading: 9/16 +handling
DP for maneuvering: 16 +handling -1 to thresholds
IP's 3-4
Cost: 58BP for skills +16.750Y rounding down to a nice and easy 61 BP since he foregoes the goldplating.
Pros:
Better dicepools.
The drone is as smart as the rigger.
Similar drones do not cost extra.
Cons:
WiFi and Jamming is a bitch, alternatively looking for a safe spot to hide while you jump into VR isn't much better.
Having more drones does not scale as favourably as for the guy buying pilot programs since using a drone takes just about all your actions.

Upgrading the drone to an impressive all sixes yields the following DP's for an total cost of 40k or 8 BP
DP for Shooting things: 14
DP for finding things: Sensor+6
DP for evading: 6/12+handling
DP for maneuvering: 12+handling

For those 2 BPs the drone rigger can get a specialization in EW drawing even with the drone in the field he cares about, while still retaining pools that still are two to four points higher.

Make of that what you will.

Good god, I had already posted this fact myself several times already, both in bald faced statements and in the middle of my examples.

Page 125, BBB, first entry under the "Vehicle Active Skills" section is Gunnery. It's in the tables under the Vehicle Active skills too. Vehicle Control Rigs affect all Vehicle Active Skills while you're jumped in, so if it's a remote controlled turret connected to your vehicle/drone and you're jumped in and controlling the vehicle/drone through your VCR, you are entitled to your VCR bonus. If it's a mounted unwired weapon on a pintle mount, it's still considered the Gunnery skill, but in that case you either use Gunnery+Agility or you default to Agility if you don't have the skill.

As for the rest of what you're saying, you're wrong again.

Page 239, BBB
If a jump-piloted drone takes damage, however, a rigger operating with hot sim also risks injury from dangerous biofeedback. Each time the drone suffers damage, the rigger must also resist half that amount (round up) in Stun damage with a Willpower + Biofeedback Filter Test. If the drone is destroyed, the rigger is dumped from the Matrix and immediately suffers the effects of dumpshock (see p. 231).

Honestly, I don't know how much clearer than can make it. Drones/vehicles for all intents and purposes can be considered to have hardened armor since they ignore any damage staged down to stun, so all in all, jumping in isn't that terribly dangerous, and the vehicle will surely be destroyed well before you are knocked out. And if you're riding the vehicle yourself, odds are you're pretty boned anyway if the vehicle is ever demolished to begin with.