Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: calling out hermit
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Jaid
seems like the trend lately is to start up challenge threads to prove a point, and this one is getting on my nerves.

so hermit, you keep on going on and on about how autopilots are better than riggers in SR4. well fine, bring it on. you tell me what you're doing with the pilot, show me some numbers, and i will tell you how an actual rigger will blow it out of the water.
Nightwalker450
The autopilots aren't necessarily better, but they are cheaper than creating a rigger. Its the same as the whole hacker in a box agent, you have the rigger in a box pilot.

But since arsenal ruled (can't remember page) that pilots are unique to devices, and only have limited capability to switch between different ones. They are not quite as flexible (granted even the rigger needs multiple skill groups). So not quite as bad as the hacker in a box.
Synner
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 21 2008, 04:11 PM) *
The autopilots aren't necessarily better, but they are cheaper than creating a rigger. Its the same as the whole hacker in a box agent, you have the rigger in a box pilot.

I'd just like to note before proceeding the single most important rule regarding Agents/Pilots that I've seen overlooked: at chargen both are capped by Availability at Rating 4. Both are of course available for standard Availability and nuyen costs in play. Other limitations regarding both Agents and Pilots will be addressed in Unwired.
hermit
Agents can act as autopilots, can't they?

Anyway, AS I HAVE SAID IN THAT THREAD, the pilot might lack 2 Dice to the rigger (due to the Rigger's VCR Bonus), but that's about it, and that would be a maxed-out rigger - an average Rigger (Response 3, Skill 5) pilotng the drone would lose out big time. Out of the box, the drone would be notably better if not rigged. If you max out Drone and Rigger, they are MARGINALLY better.

Since you don't mention them, I take it as a agreeance on your part that the Driver Streetsam, Technomancer and Adept Rigger are superior to the mundane rigger.
CircuitBoyBlue
It seems to me that if you want a phenomenal dice pool, you go with the rigger. But in most situations, you only need a decent dice pool, and so there's a ton of drones flying around with just their pilot. Just depends what you need.

But do you really need to go calling people out? I know it's a trend, but that doesn't mean you have to continue it. It just seems a little confrontational to me. I'm sure Hermit's not the only one with an opinion on this, nor is he the only one who can come up with numbers showing how useful a pilot program could be. It's not really an area of the rules I'm personally as familiar with as a lot of people are, and I'd be interested in hearing anyone debate the pros and cons of pilot programs, not just one guy who has to be defensive because a thread was started specifically to put him in the hot seat.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Synner @ Mar 21 2008, 11:17 AM) *
I'd just like to note before proceeding the single most important rule regarding Agents/Pilots that I've seen overlooked: at chargen both are capped by Availability at Rating 4. Both are of course available for standard Availability and nuyen costs in play. Other limitations regarding both Agents and Pilots will be addressed in Unwired.


I'm looking forward to those limitiations biggrin.gif

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 11:18 AM) *
Agents can act as autopilots, can't they?


No it takes a pilot, not an agent

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 11:18 AM) *
Anyway, AS I HAVE SAID IN THAT THREAD, the pilot might lack 2 Dice to the rigger (due to the Rigger's VCR Bonus), but that's about it, and that would be a maxed-out rigger - an average Rigger (Response 3, Skill 5) pilotng the drone would lose out big time. Out of the box, the drone would be notably better if not rigged. If you max out Drone and Rigger, they are MARGINALLY better.


+2 Dice for VR, and a -1 Theshold from the CR For basically 7 dice difference. But a pilot can drive "adequetly" for most people, but my riggers are usually street car racers so "adequetly" doesn't cut it for me. And seattle traffic is so terrible, you need a 6 just to get to the supermarket biggrin.gif

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 11:18 AM) *
Since you don't mention them, I take it as a agreeance on your part that the Driver Streetsam, Technomancer and Adept Rigger are superior to the mundane rigger.


I think the idea is that, Adepts and Technomancers are fairly expensive, same with a street sam. So the Rigger will have more tricks as Synner stated, with Electronic Warfare, and moderate hacking skills to protect his drones from being attacked via matrix.
Jaid
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 12:18 PM) *
Agents can act as autopilots, can't they?

Anyway, AS I HAVE SAID IN THAT THREAD, the pilot might lack 2 Dice to the rigger (due to the Rigger's VCR Bonus), but that's about it, and that would be a maxed-out rigger - an average Rigger (Response 3, Skill 5) pilotng the drone would lose out big time. Out of the box, the drone would be notably better if not rigged. If you max out Drone and Rigger, they are MARGINALLY better.

Since you don't mention them, I take it as a agreeance on your part that the Driver Streetsam, Technomancer and Adept Rigger are superior to the mundane rigger.

ok, first off, like i said, you evidently don't have a clue what you're talking about.

the rigger can make use of response 5 at chargen. the drone pilot cannot. there's 1 die. the rigger can use a control rig. the drone pilot cannot. that's 2 more dice. the rigger can use hotsim. the drone pilot cannot. that's 2 more dice. the rigger can use skills at 6, the drone pilot can use only up to 4. that's another 2 dice. the rigger can use specialisations, the drone pilot cannot. that's another 2 dice. the rigger can use control rig boosters to gain an additional 1-3 dice to their DP. the drone pilot cannot. the rigger can use a simsense booster to get a 4th IP. the drone pilot cannot. so right there i'm looking at 8+ dice that your drone pilot isn't going to get, at chargen or otherwise. that is not insignificant, even by Cain's ludicrous definition of a significant increase.

as far as rigger sams, good luck with that. the rigger will likely have multiple vehicle skills at 4 (with specialisations) plus gunnery plus a control rig plus either control rig boosters or simsense booster. the sammy? i don't think so. he'll have a decent dicepool for one, maybe 2 vehicles, but if he's taking a ton of vehicle skills to match the rigger, then at that point the sammy is also a rigger imo. because hey, guess what, the rigger can also pick up some combat 'ware and a gun skill or two, and now he's going to have similar dice pools to what the sammy has in combat also. he won't be a street samurai (unless your definition of street sam only includes "can shoot a gun reasonably well") but he'll have a sold dicepool, just like the street sam will have vs. the rigger.

now then, on to rigger adepts: sure, they'll likely beat a mundane rigger. guess what? the gunslinger adept is better with guns than the street sam. an infiltration adept is better at sneaking than the covert ops specialist. the adept face can laugh at the mundane face's comparatively tiny dicepool. this is not a rigger vs rigger adept issue, it's an adept vs mundane issue. the difference is that while the adept will throw a couple more dice, he's paying 2-3 times as much for it. possibly more.

the technomantic rigger? sure, stronger than the mundane rigger. but the difference is that the mundane rigger can actually be useful in other areas... the technomantic rigger? he's not gonna be useful outside of his specialty. that's why the technomantic rigger is in fact better, it's because it's on the very short list of things that the technomancer actually does reasonably well.
Synner
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 04:18 PM) *
Agents can act as autopilots, can't they?

No.

QUOTE
Anyway, AS I HAVE SAID IN THAT THREAD, the pilot might lack 2 Dice to the rigger (due to the Rigger's VCR Bonus), but that's about it, and that would be a maxed-out rigger - an average Rigger (Response 3, Skill 5)

Your math is incomplete, as has been shown. I've seen some rigger builds in playtesting that can be a pretty scary. I've seen rigger's dicepools beating out the best drone Pilot out of chargen by 8 dice or more.

Though I'm left wondering why an "average rigger" who lives by his vehicles and drones would have a Response of 3. Even the Sample Characters in the corebook, which people keep telling me are sub-optimal, have better than that on their gear lists. Why would an average rigger have less? The whole point of a rigger is that your vehicles and drones are the tools you work and live by—and you're suggesting a decent rigger is not going to upgrade/mod the hell out of them?
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 21 2008, 11:43 AM) *
the rigger can make use of response 5 at chargen. the drone pilot cannot. there's 1 die.


Actually the drone can have a response 5, you just have to upgrade it. It will only need a response of 4 though because its pilot can only goto 4 at chargen. (Response only affects drones in how high their pilot can go). But since most drones would probably be deemed at least "security" if not "military" (excluding emo-toy)

then it likely already has a Response 4.

Either way the other things you listed more than smash the drones dice pool in comparison to the rigger.

EDIT: Quick question for Synner, does a rigger need both his commlink and the drone to be at rating X response, or only the drone? Since the rigger uses the devices ratings? Right now I'm thinking he'd be limited by the lower of the two responses, since if his commlink can't keep up with the drone then its not going to do any good, and if the drone can't keep up with the commlink its also not going to work.
hermit
QUOTE
Your math is incomplete, as has been shown. I've seen some rigger builds in playtesting that can be a pretty scary. I've seen rigger's dicepools beating out the best drone Pilot out of chargen by 8 dice or more.

So then show me how, please.

QUOTE
Though I'm left wondering why an "average rigger" who lives by his vehicles and drones would have a Response of 3. Even the Sample Characters in the corebook, which people keep telling me are sub-optimal, have better than that on their gear lists. Why would an average rigger have less? The whole point of a rigger is that your vehicles and drones are the tools you work and live by—and you're suggesting a decent rigger is not going to upgrade/mod the hell out of them?

Sure, so let's say Response 5 and skill 5. Makes for a DP of 10, which is on par with a decent drone pilot. Okay, there's the +2 VR bonus and -1 Threshold, but that doesn't exactly count as fantastically superior. And again, what really rubs me the wrong way is the driver sam, not to mention the adept rigger and technomancer.
Jaid
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 21 2008, 12:52 PM) *
Actually the drone can have a response 5, you just have to upgrade it. It will only need a response of 4 though because its pilot can only goto 4 at chargen. (Response only affects drones in how high their pilot can go). But since most drones would probably be deemed at least "security" if not "military" (excluding emo-toy)

repeat: the rigger can actually *use* response 5 at chargen. the drone cannot (not quite true, the drone would get an initiative score 1 higher to be honest, but close enough).
Synner
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 21 2008, 04:52 PM) *
EDIT: Quick question for Synner, does a rigger need both his commlink and the drone to be at rating X response, or only the drone? Since the rigger uses the devices ratings? Right now I'm thinking he'd be limited by the lower of the two responses, since if his commlink can't keep up with the drone then its not going to do any good, and if the drone can't keep up with the commlink its also not going to work.

This is correct. It's also on my next list of FAQ updates (though I can't remember off the top of my head if this is in Unwired too). The rigger is limited to the lower of the two ratings.

QUOTE (Hermit)
QUOTE (Synner)
Your math is incomplete, as has been shown. I've seen some rigger builds in playtesting that can be a pretty scary. I've seen rigger's dicepools beating out the best drone Pilot out of chargen by 8 dice or more.
So then show me how, please.

Jaid has already offered up (thanks in advance) a legal rigger build I've seen in playtesting:
QUOTE (Jaid)
the rigger can use a control rig. the drone pilot cannot. that's 2 more dice. the rigger can use hotsim. the drone pilot cannot. that's 2 more dice. the rigger can use skills at 6, the drone pilot can use only up to 4. that's another 2 dice. the rigger can use specialisations, the drone pilot cannot. that's another 2 dice. the rigger can use control rig boosters to gain an additional 1-3 dice to their DP. the drone pilot cannot. the rigger can use a simsense booster to get a 4th IP. the drone pilot cannot. so right there i'm looking at 8+ dice that your drone pilot isn't going to get, at chargen or otherwise. that is not insignificant, even by Cain's ludicrous definition of a significant increase.

That's at least an 8+ dicepool difference at chargen (without specializations) and 4 IPs. It's also significantly more than a specialized street samurai driver can get. Again YMMV.
Jaid
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 12:54 PM) *
So basically the riger isn't really good at anything and outclassed in what he supposedly does well by a number of characters including your run-of-the-mill cybersam who invests in drivers school bit, but can as a starting character shine with a broader approach to stuff, until about 50 to 100 Karma, where the other mundanes start generalising too because thy don't have any more room left for getting more efficient in their respective special areas.

That's an awsome character concept! Sounds really fun to play. A stooge who can't do anything right but will work until everyone else is somewhat developed. Especially compared to the really crippled 3rd Edition riggers.

1) 50 to 100 karma is not trivial.

2) the drone rigger will remain better in his area of specialty. unless of course you define the rigger's area of specialty as driving 1 vehicle reasonably well, never mind using gunnery, EW skills, or even just driving more than 1 kind of vehicle. but heck, if you call that a rigger, then i'm calling my rigger with pistols 4 (semiautomatic +2) and agility 5(7) a street sam, and thereby rendering your entire street sam obsolete apparently. i mean, your streetsam is throwing what, like 3 more dice? good for him.

seriously. you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and it's really annoying to me to listen to you scream and whine about how arsenal is a failure of a book just because it apparently doesn't live up to your expectations of giving riggers a dicepool of 50 to play with. you don't seem to have any real ability to back up what you're saying, and i can't say i've particularly enjoyed your senseless negativity. heck, before i decided to start this thread, i was seriously considering muting you just so that i don't have to listen to you rant and rave about a problem that doesn't even exist. and once this thread is done with, i probably will mute you anyways, just so that i don't have to listen to your constant whining.
Shadow
Hey Synn, I think he is using "average" as stated by the book, which is an average rating/attribute/skill is 3.

I also think his point is that while of course a Rigger is better, a drone pilot can be "good enough" for a ton less money and expense than a full fledged rigger. More of a better from an economical stand point.
hermit
QUOTE
seriously. you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and it's really annoying to me to listen to you scream and whine about how arsenal is a failure of a book just because it apparently doesn't live up to your expectations of giving riggers a dicepool of 50 to play with.

Try getting some manners, then we maybe can discuss above kindergarten level. I never said that, I gave examples and reasons, wehreas you only brag about how you will disprove me and all you really get together are insults. Maybe reasoning would be a nice idea, but then again, that seems to be beyond your abilities (you're welcome to prove me wrong though).

QUOTE
1) 50 to 100 karma is not trivial.

I do play my characters for more than 3 or 4 runs. With an average of 5 to 7 Karma per run, and one run per two sessions, 50 Karma isn't a far-out goal.

QUOTE
That's at least an 8+ dicepool difference at chargen (without specializations) and 4 IPs. It's also significantly more than a specialized street samurai driver can get. Again YMMV.

Hot sim is suicide in a vehicle battle, as the damage the character takes will very soon negate any advantage it brings. Though I am unsure if vehicle and character damage mods stack with riggers in 4.
Specialisations are good for one-trick ponies and not versatile characters, whcih riggers are supposed to be.

QUOTE
the rigger can use control rig boosters to gain an additional 1-3 dice to their DP. the drone pilot cannot. the rigger can use a simsense booster to get a 4th IP. the drone pilot cannot.

An either/(or would be in order to not make people believe those are compatible, which Augmentation said they aren't (should that have been errata'd I'd be unaware of that).

QUOTE
That's at least an 8+ dicepool difference at chargen (without specializations) and 4 IPs.

No. That's 7 and 4IP (considering the rigger is maxed out for that vehicle and burns his versatility) or +8DP and 3IP.

Also, YMMV?
Jaid
QUOTE (Shadow @ Mar 21 2008, 01:06 PM) *
Hey Synn, I think he is using "average" as stated by the book, which is an average rating/attribute/skill is 3.

I also think his point is that while of course a Rigger is better, a drone pilot can be "good enough" for a ton less money and expense than a full fledged rigger. More of a better from an economical stand point.

moneywise, a rigger is actually about the same.

a rating 4 pilot program costs 10k credits. the rigger costs 10k for a control rig, and 250 (not 250k, just 250) for a hot sim module. control rig boosters can raise the cost some more, as could a simsense booster, but both of those are fairly optional anyways. that would still leave the drone rigger at 4-6 more dice at no real increased expense. plus the rigger can just use pretty much any vehicle, whereas the drone pilot is limited to only it's specific type of vehicle.
Jaid
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 01:11 PM) *
Try getting some manners, then we maybe can discuss above kindergarten level. I never said that, I gave examples and reasons, wehreas you only brag about how you will disprove me and all you really get together are insults. Maybe reasoning would be a nice idea, but then again, that seems to be beyond your abilities (you're welcome to prove me wrong though).

ok, so fine, *reason* yourself up some drone pilots that are better than the rigger i've pointed out is possible. *reason* yourself up an adept rigger that doesn't use all the same stuff as the rigger plus several points of magic. *reason* yourself up a technomancer rigger that is a well-balanced character who could reasonably be useful outside of the matrix in anything remotely resembling a variety of situations. *reason* yourself a street sam who can drive danged near anything the way a rigger should be able to with the kind of dicepool you're suggesting is so easy. yes, i am probably being more rude and confrontational than is strictly necessary. that doesn't make me wrong, it just makes me rude and confrontational.

QUOTE
I do play my characters for more than 3 or 4 runs. With an average of 5 to 7 Karma per run, and one run per two sessions, 50 Karma isn't a far-out goal.
so then 14-20 sessions is non-trivial to you? that's probably 4-5 months for most people here (probably more for some) and even then, the sammy still isn't going have branched out into the rigger's specialty most likely. if he's anything like a decent sammy, he'll probably be boosting all those core sammy skills that he could only bring up to 4 at chargen, picking up specialisations in everything he skipped earlier... unless, of course, you're designing a sammy/rigger, in which case you aren't comparing a non-rigger to a rigger, you're just comparing an X/rigger to a rigger/X (i find it hard to believe that you could spend the full 400 BP on being just a rigger, unless you start picking up all kinds of pilot exotic vehicle skills just to waste points)

[edit] you seem to have edited your post, or the forums didn't copy half of your post and didn't show me it earlier. either way:

QUOTE
Hot sim is suicide in a vehicle battle, as the damage the character takes will very soon negate any advantage it brings. Though I am unsure if vehicle and character damage mods stack with riggers in 4.
Specialisations are good for one-trick ponies and not versatile characters, whcih riggers are supposed to be.

the hotsim is going to bring your default defense dice pool up to 9, most likely. throw in a full defense if you wish, and you're no more likely to get hit than the sam. as far as the stun damage to the rigger, it can be ignored with proper gear if you wish, and this assumes the vehicle even takes that damage (which, considering you can mod the armor on a lot of things to be up to the levels where people complain you need special weaponry to even penetrate the armor at all and it's quite cheap to boot, isn't all that likely).

QUOTE
An either/(or would be in order to not make people believe those are compatible, which Augmentation said they aren't (should that have been errata'd I'd be unaware of that).
no errata, though probably a common house rule. don't want to say for sure on that though, it's not like i've done a poll or anything. nonetheless i did say *can*

QUOTE
No. That's 7 and 4IP (considering the rigger is maxed out for that vehicle and burns his versatility) or +8DP and 3IP.

sure, and neither of those are insignificant. the rigger still has plenty of versatility, but in his primary vehicle he will blow away the drone. in his secondary vehicles he will still have a few more dice, just not quite as many more.

QUOTE
Also, YMMV?

apparently so. what, pray tell, is a 'significant difference' to you? do we need to give riggers 10 IPs and +40 dice pool before they're good enough?
hermit
QUOTE
plus the rigger can just use pretty much any vehicle, whereas the drone pilot is limited to only it's specific type of vehicle.

He still needs vehicle skills at 6 for your equasion to work. And Hot Sim makes little sense in combat situations.

QUOTE
*reason* yourself up a technomancer rigger that is a well-balanced character who could reasonably be useful outside of the matrix in anything remotely resembling a variety of situations.

I don't care if he'd be antisocial and onelingual. Point is, he makes a rigger look like shit in what's supposed to be the Rigger's specialisation.

Besides, try reasoning up something substantial and not flawed examples yo have synner post. That'd make you seem a little less than an idiot who's just out bashing someone whom he doesn't like.

QUOTE
yes, i am probably being more rude and confrontational than is strictly necessary. that doesn't make me wrong, it just makes me rude and confrontational.

Yes, and this violates the terms and regulations of this forum, so maybe this thread oought to be closed. I don't really see the wisdom in poster bashing threads. Especially if it's indeed about bashing, as you do, and not anything resembling a reasoned discussion.

QUOTE
control rig boosters can raise the cost some more, as could a simsense booster, but both of those are fairly optional anyways.

Funny, since those form corner points in your "why riggers kick ass more than pilots" example ... besides, "some more" is around 100.000, which is quite something in SR4.
Spike
Wow, this thread turned bitter quick!

I just wanted to point out that a -1 threshold should be 3 dice, not two... though I suppose you could reduce its impact to reflect the inability to get extra successes.

And, frankly, I could have utterly misunderstood what he was talking about....

OH, and yeah: While a good rigger can stomp over a great drone's dice pool, the real differences, realistically, are in the inherent limitations of pure drones, not in straight up dice pool comparisons.

If you allow players to control their drones as extensions of their character (as a lot of people do) they come across as great replacements for a dedicated rigger. I see it all the time in games, from pets in D&D, to drones in Shadowrun.

"I'ma shoot this guy while my drone/dire wolf pet sneaks around the back and guts him."

"Great, roll for the shot and give me a sneak/stealth check for teh drone/pet"


Which just means anyone without a pet/drone is screwing themselves out of all those extra attacks. Its sloppy GMing.
paws2sky
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 12:21 PM) *
And Hot Sim makes little sense in combat situations.


How do you figure?
Drogos
Just check the forum title biggrin.gif
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Shadow @ Mar 21 2008, 10:06 AM) *
Hey Synn, I think he is using "average" as stated by the book, which is an average rating/attribute/skill is 3.

I also think his point is that while of course a Rigger is better, a drone pilot can be "good enough" for a ton less money and expense than a full fledged rigger. More of a better from an economical stand point.

Well sure.

And skillwires can be "good enough" for when you don't want the expense of buying an actual skill.

And a bound spirit will do when you don't want to deal with hiring a whole mage.

And an Agent with a decent commlink is "good enough" when you don't want a whole hacker.

And a Steel Lynx is "good enough" when you don't want a whole streetsam.

And a cyberzombie is "good enough" when you don't want a whole nuclear bomb. biggrin.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 01:21 PM) *
He still needs vehicle skills at 6 for your equasion to work. And Hot Sim makes little sense in combat situations.
evidently we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

QUOTE
I don't care if he'd be antisocial and onelingual. Point is, he makes a rigger look like shit in what's supposed to be the Rigger's specialisation.

sure, but is the technomancer not allowed to have his own specialisation now? in this case, dedicated rigging is the TM's specialisation, many times moreso then the rigger. the rigger at least can do something else in addition to rigging.

QUOTE
Besides, try reasoning up something substantial and not flawed examples yo have synner post. That'd make you seem a little less than an idiot who's just out bashing someone whom he doesn't like.
what's flawed about them? like i said, show me that my examples are wrong. these aren't synner's examples, they're mine. the fact that two other people (one of whom is presumably very familiar with the rules, having been partly responsible for developing them) have come up with the same points to counter what you're saying doesn't suggest to you that you might be missing something?

QUOTE
Yes, and this violates the terms and regulations of this forum, so maybe this thread oought to be closed. I don't really see the wisdom in poster bashing threads. Especially if it's indeed about bashing, as you do, and not anything resembling a reasoned discussion.
that's nice. you gonna post something to disprove my points, or just keep complaining that i'm being rude while i disprove yours?


QUOTE
Funny, since those form corner points in your "why riggers kick ass more than pilots" example ... besides, "some more" is around 100.000, which is quite something in SR4.
ummm... either 15k credits or 65k credits. not sure how you're getting 100k here. granted, 65k is a lot (15k not so much) but there are other ways to get that 4th IP that drones can't get, which don't cost money (edge) or very little money (drugs should presumably work, or at least the rules don't prevent it. it makes sense that they would though, imo)

[edit] k, gonna be gone for easter dinner/visitors/etc for a while. so if i don't respond, it's not because i don't have an answer, it's because i'm gonna be elsewhere =P [/edit]
Drogos
Hermit...Are you Gallahad on another set of boards? Just a curiousity.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 12:11 PM) *
Also, YMMV?

(assuming you were asking for the meaning of the acronym)
"Your mileage may vary"
Synner
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 05:11 PM) *
Hot sim is suicide in a vehicle battle, as the damage the character takes will very soon negate any advantage it brings.

Maybe if you're using vehicles out of the book, possibly, a tricked out armored drone or car less so. But then again what's the point of being a rigger if you don't trick out your gear? Also there are ways of negating modifiers from dumpshock too. Then again without hot sim the chances of getting hit go up significantly [edit: as apparently Jaid has pointed out].

QUOTE
Specialisations are good for one-trick ponies and not versatile characters, whcih riggers are supposed to be.

This is highly debatable and depends on where specializations are put to use. A rigger taking a Pilot: Ground Craft 6 (this covers everything from cars to all ground drones and crawlers) at chargen can still take different skills at 4 and then specialize those—for instance: Pilot Aircraft (Remote Operation) (this covers pretty much all aerial drones) and Gunnery (Ballistic) 6—that covers a lot of ground and I find it hard to believe you would qualify such a rigger as a one-trick pony.

The real issue is that you have to spend BPs on hacking skills, hardware and software or you're toast against a competent hacker - though the Program + Skill Matrix mechanic allows riggers to shift some BPs from Atts to resources.

QUOTE
An either/(or would be in order to not make people believe those are compatible, which Augmentation said they aren't (should that have been errata'd I'd be unaware of that).

You are correct it should have been either or, and, yes, Augmentation has not been errata'd.

QUOTE
No. That's 7 and 4IP (considering the rigger is maxed out for that vehicle and burns his versatility) or +8DP and 3IP.

I stand corrected. Though its actually: 7 and 4IP or 9 and 3IP (without specializations, which as I mentioned above, are not to be ignored).

Also you are mistaken about maxing out burning your versatilty since 6+ of those dice are not vehicle-specific.

BTW - Did I mentioned the Edge (pun intended) riggers have over Pilots?

QUOTE
Also, YMMV?

Your mileage may vary.
DireRadiant
I do have to admit that Hermit is correct when pointing out that Riggers in comparison to other characters that cannot Rig at all (SR3) are infinitely better then when Riggers compared to other characters/Pilot software who can Rig somewhat well (SR4).

12 Dice versus 0 > 12 dice versus 8

This also the case with Hacking in SR4.

I disagree with Hermit that it is a Bad Thing about being a Rigger or Hacker in SR4. I like the flexibility and variety that ensues in SR4 builds.
Whipstitch
Erm, don't forget that the VCR bonuses etc. don't just boost your driving skills, they boost your Vehicle Skill tests as well, so a Rigger with Pilot Ground Craft 5 w/Wheeled Specialization and Gunnery 5 w/Ballistics Specialization jumped into a tricked out vehicle can and will school your ass Mad Max style. Drones are fairly powerful in combat because they can ignore recoil so easily but are limited by their ratings. A jumped in Rigger with a mounted Heavy or Vehicle Weapon can paste even a Samurai fairly easy. Dodging fully compensated Full Auto Bursts being fired by a guy with a double digit dicepool isn't for the faint of heart. Fun part is the Sam doesn't even have a way of immediately telling which drone is an "average" threat and which one is about to throw down the full burst from hell.
hermit
QUOTE
Maybe if you're using vehicles out of the book, possibly, a tricked out armored drone or car less to. But then again what's the point of being a rigger if you don't trick out your gear? Also there are ways of negating modifiers from dumpshock too.

There's a cure for death in SR4? There's a way for cybered characters to be instantly healed with any chance of success? Admitedly, I am not that familiar with how healing magic works now in regard to the cybered character ... but if a drone piloted in hot sim is damaged, every time, the rigger has to resist that damage. if the drone is sot down, he ADDITIONALLY receives dumpshock. Also, the drone is damaged. Those double damage penalties eat up the edge a rigger has very soon.

QUOTE
I stand corrected. Though its actually: 7 and 4IP or 9 and 3IP (without specializations, which as I mentioned above, are not to be ignored).

Typo, my bad.

QUOTE
Also you are mistaken about maxing out burning your versatilty since 6+ of those dice are not vehicle-specific.

Sure, but 2 of them rely on ghot sim, which isn't that useful, as stated above. If using rigger booster nanites, you get a maximum of 2 IP, which is pretty crappy compared to a drone's 3 IP.

QUOTE
BTW - Did I mentioned the Edge (pun intended) riggers have over Pilots?

Sure, but Edge is to be spent wisely, and if you use it in veery fight, you're out really soon. Butyeah, that counts as an advantage.

My points on adept hackers and technomancers still stands, though. And I'm still feeling like riggers (mundane riggers) are next to useles compared against these, about evenly matched against a streetsam driver (basically, a combat-oriented character piloting a vehicle vuia AR, without VCR or rigger boosters), a bit better than evenly matched with a decent drone, and certainly lack definition as a viable archetype (the 'versatility' just means that they're supposed to be the fill-in stooge, from what I gather, it's just spinning it into a nice word).

QUOTE
Erm, don't forget that the VCR bonuses etc. don't just boost your driving skills, they boost your Vehicle Skill tests as well, so a Rigger with Pilot Ground Craft 5 w/Wheeled Specialization and Gunnery 5 w/Ballistics Specialization jumped into a tricked out vehicle can and will school your ass Mad Max style.

Like how? +2DP, -1 Threshold (minimum 1)? Whopee, that'll teach them ...

QUOTE
what's flawed about them?

The math, for instance.

QUOTE
the fact that two other people (one of whom is presumably very familiar with the rules, having been partly responsible for developing them) have come up with the same points to counter what you're saying doesn't suggest to you that you might be missing something?

considering these people who are very familiar with the rules missed the incompatibility of rigger boosters and simsense booste, that tells me something about how familiar they are with the rules indeed.

QUOTE
sure, but is the technomancer not allowed to have his own specialisation now? in this case, dedicated rigging is the TM's specialisation, many times moreso then the rigger. the rigger at least can do something else in addition to rigging.

Numbers (preferrably correct ones)? Or are you just going to repeat this?

QUOTE
Wow, this thread turned bitter quick!

As it mainly is about personal attacks, what do you expect?
Whipstitch
More like 4 dice. I know it's hard to wrap your brain around, but if you're going to be good at being a Rigger, it helps to take the appropriate advantages.
Synner
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 06:17 PM) *
There's a cure for death in SR4? There's a way for cybered characters to be instantly healed with any chance of success? Admitedly, I am not that familiar with how healing magic works now in regard to the cybered character ... but if a drone piloted in hot sim is damaged, every time, the rigger has to resist that damage. if the drone is sot down, he ADDITIONALLY receives dumpshock. Also, the drone is damaged. Those double damage penalties eat up the edge a rigger has very soon.

My point is there are ways/implants for the rigger to ignore their penalties modifiers. Just a high Willpower (5 should do) and a good Bio-Feedback Filter (6 costs you all of 6000 nuyen) is going to reduce most non-critical feedback damage to 1 or 2 Stun (if its more than that you're going to be dumpshocked anyway since most drones will have been totaled) and there are a number of ways of ignoring those modifiers. Plus hot sim gives a rigger a fair shake at not even getting hit, something that the specialist street sam driver won't have the benefit of.

QUOTE
Sure, but 2 of them rely on ghot sim, which isn't that useful, as stated above. If using rigger booster nanites, you get a maximum of 2 IP, which is pretty crappy compared to a drone's 3 IP.

Again I beg to disagree. Hot sim is very much an advantage if the game is played as presented and all the combat modifiers come into play. It not only significantly enhances the rigger's offensive dicepools, but gives him/the vehicle significant defensive dicepools too. Furthermore the impact of hot sim feedback can be limited by a number of different methods.

QUOTE
Sure, but Edge is to be spent wisely, and if you use it in every fight, you're out really soon. Butyeah, that counts as an advantage.

True. Edge is to be used wisely, but the point is rigger's get to use it when they need and Pilots don't. That makes all the difference.

QUOTE
My points on adept hackers and technomancers still stands, though. And I'm still feeling like riggers (mundane riggers) are next to useles compared against these, about evenly matched against a streetsam driver (basically, a combat-oriented character piloting a vehicle vuia AR, without VCR or rigger boosters), a bit better than evenly matched with a decent drone, and certainly lack definition as a viable archetype (the 'versatility' just means that they're supposed to be the fill-in stooge, from what I gather, it's just spinning it into a nice word).

From the discussion above I think all that's been established is:
  • that a rigger will be significantly better than evenly matched with a drone;
  • that rigger Adepts will be more effective but more specialized and less versatile;
  • that the specialized street sam driver (to be able to fill both roles) will be competition in the narrowest of vehicle choices;
  • and that no one's really sure how a technomancer rigger bears up except that its probably going to be a BP sink and expensive (like all technomancers).

The only way we're going to come to a conclusion here is if you post builds for those characters you feel threaten the rigger's dominance and we compare with some practical examples. Maybe Jaid can provide a rigger for a baseline comparison.

QUOTE
considering these people who are very familiar with the rules missed the incompatibility of rigger boosters and simsense booste, that tells me something about how familiar they are with the rules indeed.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, "these people" were falling back on something they know about future errata and simply happened to forget that it hasn't yet been posted... Stranger things have happened.
Fortune
Mundane Riggers were next to useless against Adept Riggers in SR3 as well ... in the Adept's area of expertise. Pretty much the same as SR4. The Rigger will typically have a broader skill base, but the Adept will be better in his specialty.
hermit
QUOTE
Mundane Riggers were next to useless against Adept Riggers in SR3 as well ... in the Adept's area of expertise.

Adept powers did NOT work in either the matrix or SR3's full-VR rigging (where vehicle skills were useful). A driver adept with an attuned vehicle was severely crippled against an SR3 rigger, even if you sink 500 Karma in either, because the rigger (VCR 3 assumed) rarely rolls against something other than 2, whereas the adept is hit with modifiers left and right. The adept's DP would be very impressive even compared to a very good rigger, but 20 versus 8 has no chance of generatinga s many successes as 12 against 2.

QUOTE
My point is there are ways/implants for the rigger to ignore those modifiers. Plus hot sim gives a rigger a fair shake at not even getting hit, whereas the specialist street sam driver won't.

Maybe my GM denied me boni then, but in my experience, this is how you get an SR4 rigger killed.

QUOTE
Or perhaps, just perhaps, "these people" were falling back on something they know about future errata and simply happened to forget that it hasn't yet been posted... Stranger things have happened.

Since there're only very few gamers within the guild of seers, jaid should consider himself extemly lucky. I know I am not so fortunate. Though errating that would give riggers a much needed boost.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Synner @ Mar 21 2008, 01:33 PM) *
Again I beg to disagree. Hot sim is very much an advantage if the game is played as presented and all the combat modifiers come into play. It not only significantly enhances the rigger's offensive dicepools but gives him significant defensive dicepools too.


Offensive dicepools, it is much easier (at least just to find the rules) to boost a pilots attack then it is to boost a riggers.
Pilot:
Pilot 6 (limited by response)
Autosoft 6 (limited by pilot)
12 dice

Rigger:
Sensor (Base Vehicle Sensor (1-3), or Vision Enhancements on a camera (1-3), or just assume target by radar (1-6), or varies by sensor?)
Gunnery 6 (This is easy with every mounted weapon being in one skill)
Specializations
Smart-Link
VR Bonus?

The sensors really throw riggers for a loop right now. We're just not sure how to go about upgrading them, and exactly how to use them when we need to. Pilots don't even need or use sensors to target. I'm not saying its broken, it just still confuses me frown.gif

QUOTE (Synner @ Mar 21 2008, 01:33 PM) *
Or perhaps, just perhaps, "these people" were falling back on something they know about future errata and simply happened to forget that it hasn't yet been posted... Stranger things have happened.


Now that's just cheating, but I always look forward to errata. In any gaming book I never expect the first printing to be flawless, especially with multiple writers. biggrin.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 22 2008, 06:04 AM) *
Adept powers did NOT work in either the matrix or SR3's full-VR rigging (where vehicle skills were useful). A driver adept with an attuned vehicle was severely crippled against an SR3 rigger, even if you sink 500 Karma in either, because the rigger (VCR 3 assumed) rarely rolls against something other than 2, whereas the adept is hit with modifiers left and right. The adept's DP would be very impressive even compared to a very good rigger, but 20 versus 8 has no chance of generatinga s many successes as 12 against 2.


You are aware that Adepts could also get implants in SR3, right? And they could Geas away the Essence loss as well to lessen or even nullify the impact on their Powers (which they cannot do in SR4). Adept Riggers in SR3 were basically Riggers with any appropriate Adept Powers stacked on top. They just plain kicked the shit out of mundane Riggers.
hermit
QUOTE
You are aware that Adepts could also get implants in SR3, right? And they could Geas away the Essence loss as well to lessen or even nullify the impact on their Powers (which they cannot do in SR4).

a) full VR + Adept powers = don't mix, for all I know of SR3's rules. But admittedly, I'm not an awakened character player, never have been, so I might be wrong. I'm very sude matrix and adept powers don't mix, though, because I once tried to build The Major in SR3.
b) Geasing away 5 points of essence loss is seriously crippling even to a high karma adept. Besides, such a concept is extremly hard to justify ingame and won't pass any GM, whereas adept hackers are explicitly mentioned in street magic, if I am not mistaken.
c) Thanks to much reduced essence costs, rigger adepts now are viable without being extremly crippled.
Mikado
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 03:05 PM) *
a) full VR + Adept powers = don't mix, for all I know of SR3's rules. But admittedly, I'm not an awakened character player, never have been, so I might be wrong. I'm very sude matrix and adept powers don't mix, though, because I once tried to build The Major in SR3.

Actually, IIRC, Adept powers in 3rd ed (and in 4th) could be used in full VR. But only certan ones. I don't have my books with me but I recall that the powers that boost skills could be used. Which would give an adept rigger many bonus dice to play with but only for one skill. Given a 6 magic and a 6 skill you could give an adept rigger +6 dice to 4 driving skills or 2 driving skills and gunnery. And in 4th they get better thanks to trodes allowing you to go hotsim (I don't recall that being the case in 3rd) now you dont have to waste power points on cyber....
hermit
QUOTE
Actually, IIRC, Adept powers in 3rd ed (and in 4th) could be used in full VR. But only certan ones. I don't have my books with me but I recall that the powers that boost skills could be used.

CERTAINLY not for computer, because I well remmeber me thinking that I'd have to break rules for my Motoko Kusanagi NPC. I'm unsure about driving skills, though those were a lot more fragmented in SR3 (I have sunk cloe to 300 Karma into having all that make good sense on 4 to 5 for my ancient rigger character).
Jaid
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 21 2008, 03:05 PM) *
Offensive dicepools, it is much easier (at least just to find the rules) to boost a pilots attack then it is to boost a riggers.
Pilot:
Pilot 6 (limited by response)
Autosoft 6 (limited by pilot)
12 dice

once again, there are no rating 6 autosofts. they go up to rating 4. that is all. if you want to make up equipment, then sure the drone can be better. additionally, that drone is further not chargen legal because it cannot have a pilot rating of 6 at chargen, the best the availability cap will allow is 4.

hermit, you're assuming that the vehicle will get damaged but not destroyed. most of the sedans in SR4 can get up to at least 16 points of armor... if anything damages the vehicle through that, the vehicle is probably totalled, never mind worrying about the rigger suffering from feedback. most drones you'll use in combat will be running 9 or 12 points of armor (depending on body 3 or 4). that will bounce most attacks that are not designed to destroy heavily armored things right off the bat (remember, DVs lower than armor rating are turned to stun, which does nothing against vehicles, and also remember that burst damage does not apply to penetrating armor).

so yes, really... as a general rule, for any well-armored vehicle or drone, the attack will either bounce off with no effect, or the drone is a twisted heap of smoking metal/plastic anyways and the ability to pilot said drone in the future is somewhat of a moot point.

furthermore, something as readily available as stim patches can negate quite a bit of stun damage modifiers, as can a number of drugs, and as can also something like an adrenaline pump (that being the most expensive solution). so yes, 3 IPs base, more if edge (or possibly drugs) are used. and really, the 4th IP is not that big of a deal most of the time, since a lot of fights will end by the 2nd or 3rd IP anyways.

i never said control rig boosters and simsense boosters could be used together. i didn't specifically mention them not working together, because you have mentioned it before, and i didn't feel the need to repeat myself. i assumed that since you have mentioned it, you don't need to be reminded of that fact.
hermit
QUOTE
most drones you'll use in combat will be running 9 or 12 points of armor (depending on body 3 or 4). that will bounce most attacks that are not designed to destroy heavily armored things right off the bat (remember, DVs lower than armor rating are turned to stun, which does nothing against vehicles, and also remember that burst damage does not apply to penetrating armor).

so yes, really... as a general rule, for any well-armored vehicle or drone, the attack will either bounce off with no effect, or the drone is a twisted heap of smoking metal/plastic anyways and the ability to pilot said drone in the future is somewhat of a moot point.

Yes, because dead riggers don't pilot things. Which makes Hot Sim a lot less attractive. The damage you take when hot-simming is physical, not mental, and this is NOT getting fixed with stimpatches.

QUOTE
i never said control rig boosters and simsense boosters could be used together.

Right, that was Synner quoting your example, but that could easily be read into it.

b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 05:50 PM) *
Yes, because dead riggers don't pilot things. Which makes Hot Sim a lot less attractive. The damage you take when hot-simming is physical, not mental, and this is NOT getting fixed with stimpatches.


It's Stun damage (per p. 239) unless they've changed it: any damage to the drone, apply half that much as Stun to the rigger (if in hot sim), resisted by Wil+Biofeedback.

Jaid
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 05:50 PM) *
Yes, because dead riggers don't pilot things. Which makes Hot Sim a lot less attractive. The damage you take when hot-simming is physical, not mental, and this is NOT getting fixed with stimpatches.

no, you're missing the point. the rigger is not taking damage when the vehicle gets hit most of the time unless the vehicle is also getting totaled. it's an odd effect of both hardened armor and high armor rating objects, that any given attack will either bounce off, or pretty much destroy the vehicle in question. there is very little middle ground in this generally speaking.

additionally, the damage from getting hit while jumped into a vehicle is stun damage. stun damage can be negated in many ways, and it doesn't matter where it came from; if it's stun damage, it's stun damage. a stim patch will negate stun damage that comes from a punch, and it will also negate stun damage that comes from rigging in full VR because they are not different. stun damage is stun damage is stun damage.

hot sim is still very much a viable route when it comes to rigging.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 21 2008, 02:05 PM) *
Offensive dicepools, it is much easier (at least just to find the rules) to boost a pilots attack then it is to boost a riggers.
Pilot:
Pilot 6 (limited by response)
Autosoft 6 (limited by pilot)
12 dice

Rigger:
Sensor (Base Vehicle Sensor (1-3), or Vision Enhancements on a camera (1-3), or just assume target by radar (1-6), or varies by sensor?)
Gunnery 6 (This is easy with every mounted weapon being in one skill)
Specializations
Smart-Link
VR Bonus?



It's more like this:

Best Drone Vs. Best Unawakened Rigger Shootout
6 Pilot
4 Targeting Autosoft

10 Dice

Best Rigger
Sensor: 3
Hotsim Bonus: 2
VCR Bonus: 2
Gunnery: 4-7
Specialization: 2

13-16 plus the ability to use Edge

Now, let's limit them to chargen legal

Best Chargen Drone

Pilot 4
Targeting 4
8 Dice

Best Chargen Legal Unawakened Rigger
Sensor: 3
Hotsim Bonus: 2
VCR Bonus: 2
Gunnery: 4-6
Specialization: 2
13-15 Dice plus the ability to use Edge.

It's not an insignificant margin and the only bottleneck preventing Riggers from busting things wide open is Sensors. Letting them have any more dice would be brutal, since weapon mounts already absorb recoil easily. A series of full auto bursts from a skilled and jumped in rigger is absolutely murderous. You can mow down multiple people per pass pretty easily if they're near eachother.
hermit
QUOTE
Best Drone Vs. Best Rigger Shootout
6 Pilot
4 Targeting Autosoft

+2 for a Smartlink mod to the sensors. Makes 10.
Whipstitch
Fine. Give it to the Rigger then as well, if you're going to go that route. I personally prefer to leave smartlinks out of it since we're talking about turret mounted weapons and almost purely electronic interfaces in the first place. It's not exactly clear whether or not you can have a smartlink in this case, and if anything, I wouldn't be surprised if the Rigger could have a smartlink but not the Drone. A drone is making use of a purely electronic method of targeting in the form of a Targeting Autosoft in the first place.
Jaid
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 06:32 PM) *
+2 for a Smartlink mod to the sensors. Makes 10.

and is possible for the rigger also, leaving the difference in the dicepool the same.
Ryu
Gunnery is a vehicle skill. Thats +2 from the rig on top of the things mentioned.

Dodge should always be specialised on ranged combat and is the most important skill for any rigger (unless the new FAQ will allow to dodge with vehicle skill), so it should always be the rating 6 skill. Skimping here might prove expensive.


Any vehicle you use should have at least response 5 (self-made for some 2k¥), and armor modification will have even rotordrones with an armor of 9.

So you are looking at Response+(handling)+4 = 9+ for base defense. With dodge, that becomes 17+ for full defense. You could add Reakt from Augmentation, for defense 11+/19+. The samurai should IMO rely on gymnastics instead of dodge, and will pay more for premade upgrade parts.

The defense roll just has to reduce net hits, full avoidance is usually not required. If the drone is destroyed, you take at most it´s full monitor/2 damage, resisted with willpower+biofeedback filters. That will leave 1-3 boxes of stun, but a samurai would have died in that place. A pilot 5 running on the same system has defense pools of 5/9, that is useful but can be destroyed.

Consequence: Unless the opposition brings heavy weapons or heavily augmented guards, you can rely on the pilot programs to defend an area. If you jump into a drone, you can bring as much firepower to bear as a samurai. That is the basis for the drone network I wrote about; whereever the opposition is coming from, you have a drone that you can jump into. Smaller spy drones can scout ahead, and as they are not armed, they can spend many actions on full defense in addition to being small and maneuverable on top of being stealthy, as in "not even touching the ground".
hermit
QUOTE
Gunnery is a vehicle skill. Thats +2 from the rig on top of the things mentioned.

Uhm, no? Source?

QUOTE
The defense roll just has to reduce net hits, full avoidance is usually not required. If the drone is destroyed, you take at most it´s full monitor/2 damage, resisted with willpower+biofeedback filters. That will leave 1-3 boxes of stun

The book says "damage", not "stun damage", which means physical damage, usually.

QUOTE
If the drone is destroyed, you take at most it´s full monitor/2 damage

Again, I looked that up, and the book said to resist the drone's full sustained damage, which then translates as 'damage', meaning physical.
Sma
Some numbers:

Drone:

Response 5, Pilot 4, Autosofts (Clearsight, Maneuver, EW, Targeting, Defense) 6 (for easier upgrading, later on), Smartgun, Firewall 6
Dicepools assuming Pilot limits the rating of the autosoft.
DP for Shooting things: 10
DP for seeing things: Sensor+4
DP for evading: 4/8+handling
DP for maneuvering: 8+handling -1 to thresholds (p.103 Ars, p159 SR4)
3 Passes + however many passes the "rigger" (who may or may not be a full magician or street sam) brings to the table
Cost: 31k in Software which we'll round up to 6 BP so he can goldplate the Smartgun.
Pros:
Assuming the drone tags along, he does not care about WiFi Blocking paint and is less concerned about jamming than a rigger sitting in the van remoting the drones.
If a hacker is available statting up a second drone of the same type costs nothing extra.
Controlling the drone costs one action whenever parameters change
Cons:
Is not a rigger.
Getting different drone will cost the full amount of BP/Money.
The drone has a dog brain.

Rigger
Piloting Skill (applicable drone) 5, Gunnery (applicable weapon) 5, Perception 4, EW 4 (which I'll waive the cost of since its pretty much a given that ever character will invest in this skill), Smartgun, Control Rig, Response 5, Hot Sim
DP for Shooting things: 18
DP for seeing things: Sensor +4
DP for evading: 9/16 +handling
DP for maneuvering: 16 +handling -1 to thresholds
IP's 3-4
Cost: 58BP for skills +16.750Y rounding down to a nice and easy 61 BP since he foregoes the goldplating.
Pros:
Better dicepools.
The drone is as smart as the rigger.
Similar drones do not cost extra.
Cons:
WiFi and Jamming is a bitch, alternatively looking for a safe spot to hide while you jump into VR isn't much better.
Having more drones does not scale as favourably as for the guy buying pilot programs since using a drone takes just about all your actions.

Upgrading the drone to an impressive all sixes yields the following DP's for an total cost of 40k or 8 BP
DP for Shooting things: 14
DP for finding things: Sensor+6
DP for evading: 6/12+handling
DP for maneuvering: 12+handling

For those 2 BPs the drone rigger can get a specialization in EW drawing even with the drone in the field he cares about, while still retaining pools that still are two to four points higher.

Make of that what you will.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 21 2008, 07:15 PM) *
Uhm, no? Source?


The book says "damage", not "stun damage", which means physical damage, usually.


Again, I looked that up, and the book said to resist the drone's full sustained damage, which then translates as 'damage', meaning physical.



Good god, I had already posted this fact myself several times already, both in bald faced statements and in the middle of my examples.

Page 125, BBB, first entry under the "Vehicle Active Skills" section is Gunnery. It's in the tables under the Vehicle Active skills too. Vehicle Control Rigs affect all Vehicle Active Skills while you're jumped in, so if it's a remote controlled turret connected to your vehicle/drone and you're jumped in and controlling the vehicle/drone through your VCR, you are entitled to your VCR bonus. If it's a mounted unwired weapon on a pintle mount, it's still considered the Gunnery skill, but in that case you either use Gunnery+Agility or you default to Agility if you don't have the skill.

As for the rest of what you're saying, you're wrong again.

Page 239, BBB
If a jump-piloted drone takes damage, however, a rigger operating with hot sim also risks injury from dangerous biofeedback. Each time the drone suffers damage, the rigger must also resist half that amount (round up) in Stun damage with a Willpower + Biofeedback Filter Test. If the drone is destroyed, the rigger is dumped from the Matrix and immediately suffers the effects of dumpshock (see p. 231).

Honestly, I don't know how much clearer than can make it. Drones/vehicles for all intents and purposes can be considered to have hardened armor since they ignore any damage staged down to stun, so all in all, jumping in isn't that terribly dangerous, and the vehicle will surely be destroyed well before you are knocked out. And if you're riding the vehicle yourself, odds are you're pretty boned anyway if the vehicle is ever demolished to begin with.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012