Dumpshock Forums > calling out hermit

DMK

Mar 31 2008, 08:13 PM

I've found this thread quite fascinating, so I thought I'd join in. Here's my take on a starting Rigger. This guy is probably going to be a backup character for my current game. (Probably backup #2. We don't have a Magician right now, so he'll be backup #1.

)

One thing to note: I don't own Augmentation, so no goodies from there.

Main sheet:

[ Spoiler ]

Main Vehicle:

[ Spoiler ]

Steel Lynx Drone

[ Spoiler ]

C-D Dalmation Drone

[ Spoiler ]

Man, I hate making high nuyen characters in some ways. Takes a long time to work out how you spent the money...

Ryu

Mar 31 2008, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (Aaron @ Mar 31 2008, 07:29 PM)

Mwr? It appears that the sprite power in question works on devices, of which a vehicle is one, unless the vehicle is really really old.

I suspect that what you mean to say is that Command is not even close to being a good alternative to combat. And there might be an implicit "in my opinion" in there, too.

Could you elaborate on this, please? I, for one, am not sure what you're getting at.

Vehicles are explicitly forbidden in the german version of the Diagnostic rules. Make of that what you will, we are far away from errata 1.5 in german last I knew.

I gave reasons why Commanding is generally inferior, and I think those are pretty hard limits.

The thing on Sprite limits was already answered for me. My pilots also use to have some matrix softs running, like Analyse and ECCM.

Jaid

Mar 31 2008, 08:29 PM

QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 31 2008, 02:51 PM)

Therefore, THIS DEBATE IS UNRESOLVABLE. Whether you like the numbers or not, it is based on personal preference, based on an opinion of how the numbers "should" look that is absolutely ineffable. Which makes this entire debate futile, and makes me really wish that it would end. Now.

actually, had you read the whole thing, you would be aware that a number of misconceptions have been cleared up in this thread. it is entirely possible to resolve this, because hermit is not being an unreasonable idiot... he's actually listening to the points that are raised, he's examining the data, and his opinion *has* changed. if people's misunderstandings about how the rigging/vehicle rules work (and technomancer rules too, i suppose) then this debate has served a purpose. it is not futile, because it is accomplishing useful things.

QUOTE (Synner @ Mar 31 2008, 03:22 PM)

Furthermore they're contingent on using Command to rig rather than jumping in - which all things being equal has been shown automatically puts you at a disadvantage. Once a technomancer jumps in he has a number of advantages and a different set of disadvantages.

i do feel it is important to note here that using command *also* has advantages. sure, full dodge is not a possibility, but the TM's basic dodge pool (which, in this case, will be command rating, and not dodge) is going to be pretty impressive if he has time to prepare and use sprites. fading can be mitigated with a good machine sprite and a first aid autosoft, to some extent. the main problem is that the TM won't be able to have these up all the time; when he's ready, he'll be scary as can be. when he's not ready, he's not *as* impressive as the rigger, but he's still not exactly horribly screwed either.

QUOTE

You math is off. All you've done for 50 karma is 2 initiate grades and 1 Resonance (to 6 not 7). To raise it to 7 you now need to expend a further 21 karma (for a total of 67). Now apply 67 karma to the riggers posted in this thread and you will see several DPs rising.

just a nitpick, but the sample TM i provided actually has resonance 6 to start... or is there a different TM that we're using? (not arguing the point, really... pretty much just the details. i would also argue the TM should be boosting his command CF alongside his resonance if he wants to be purely a TM rigger and not expand into other areas, which would increase the command-using TM's dicepool as well)

Larme

Mar 31 2008, 08:52 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 31 2008, 02:02 PM)

Now, this debate was split off another where I argued that the Rigger, as a character specialising in VR and AR control of devices, is not a viable character concept anymore because he can never hope to win against a technomancer character, even one of significantly less Karma, thanks to the restrictive hardcaps on attributes and programs. Now, lots of people came down on me and told me that just wasn't so, that Riggers still make sense as characters and do have a chance against a Technomancer character. People demanded proof, this debate ensued.

This is also an unresolvable question. What does "viable character" mean? You might define viable character as able to win always against everyone, others might define viable as good enough to be playable and fun. The answer to this question is not numbers-based, it only depends on how you want to define your terms, and overall on how you want to play. You CAN'T prove whether a character type is viable, unless there is a commonly accepted definition of viable, which there never will be in this kind of contentious topic. Though there are certainly facts being flung back and forth, the facts cannot amount to proof. Nobody can win. Ergo, kafkaesque exercise in futility.

QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 31 2008, 03:29 PM)

actually, had you read the whole thing, you would be aware that a number of misconceptions have been cleared up in this thread. it is entirely possible to resolve this, because hermit is not being an unreasonable idiot... he's actually listening to the points that are raised, he's examining the data, and his opinion *has* changed. if people's misunderstandings about how the rigging/vehicle rules work (and technomancer rules too, i suppose) then this debate has served a purpose. it is not futile, because it is accomplishing useful things.

That's a fair point. Insofar as you're trying to change someone's mind, any debate can be deemed useful. But as to coming to a correct answer, when there isn't one, it can't be done. There is no right answer here because you're dealing with a fluid problem defined by fluid standards. The best you can hope for is that people will change their minds, but even though hermit may have conceded some points, that really doesn't mean the thread is getting anywhere, does it? His position is still essentially the same after 8 pages, isn't it time to just shake hands and agree to disagree?

Jaid

Mar 31 2008, 09:02 PM

QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 31 2008, 04:52 PM)

That's a fair point. Insofar as you're trying to change someone's mind, any debate can be deemed useful. But as to coming to a correct answer, when there isn't one, it can't be done. There is no right answer here because you're dealing with a fluid problem defined by fluid standards. The best you can hope for is that people will change their minds, but even though hermit may have conceded some points, that really doesn't mean the thread is getting anywhere, does it? His position is still essentially the same after 8 pages, isn't it time to just shake hands and agree to disagree?

no, because like i said, there's a lot of stuff that's coming out that hermit didn't know, and he *likes* riggers to begin with, and has actually read through the rules on them. heck, even i've learned a thing or two (hadn't considered that it wouldn't be possible to interrupt full dodge when using command program, for example), and i consider myself to know the rules on this area fairly well.

as such, i do think that this thread serves a purpose. if nothing else, hermit doesn't go around bashing riggers in every tangentially related thread anymore, because there is a place *here* to discuss that sort of thing, without sidetracking any other threads.

certainly, as the OP, i don't feel that this thread is going nowhere; you want to see a discussion that goes nowhere, trying the cain challenge threads. this thread, on the other hand, is going places... it's answering questions, it's providing examples of some widely misunderstood sections of the rules, it's highlighting the advantages of various archetypes... all kinds of good stuff going on here.

Ryu

Mar 31 2008, 09:13 PM

I have learned here, too.

Larme

Mar 31 2008, 09:16 PM

QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 31 2008, 04:02 PM)

certainly, as the OP, i don't feel that this thread is going nowhere; you want to see a discussion that goes nowhere, trying the cain challenge threads.

Ok, you win.

DMK

Mar 31 2008, 09:17 PM

Just chiming in with a "me too": This has been really interesting. I'm still not sure what to think about Command vs. Sensor Targetting... it seems... off... to me that a threaded Command CF could give you better dice pools then being jumped in (as far as strictly firing the gun.) I can't think of a good way to put it constructively though. Maybe it ought to be limited by the actual rating of the "stat" it's replacing. *shrug*

hermit

Mar 31 2008, 09:17 PM

QUOTE

because like i said, there's a lot of stuff that's coming out that hermit didn't know, and he *likes* riggers to begin with

Yes, this thread has been quite intriguing for me. Also, having played a rigger since 1st edition all the way to today, yes, you can say I like rigger characters. Which might be why I am so ticked off at the technomancer dropping out of nowhere and - as I saw (and to a point still see) it, making riggers virtually obsolete.

Anyway, let's get back to comparing, shall we?

QUOTE

Vehicles are explicitly forbidden in the german version of the Diagnostic rules.

I know. Not in the English rules though, and those are the basis for this discussion. I've fallen into that trap too, twice, already.

Ryu

Mar 31 2008, 10:09 PM

On simple driving:
TM: general bonus from threading +2 (no drain), Bonus for being hot-sim +2, Base command rating of 12 with Support Operation Sprite, Skill level 4 with specialisation. 20 dice

Rigger: VCR +2, Hot-Sim +2, Same skill, Response 6 (immediately after chargen). 16 dice, Threshold-1 due to VR-piloting.

Both can get a car to stand on one wheel... no difference.

About Support Operation: You can not use it for prolonged activities. Your sprites do the service for 3secs/rating point. Watch those intervals on extended tests. I would not count modifiers that are not there the whole time.

hermit

Mar 31 2008, 10:11 PM

-1 Threshold is worthless in tests where just the hit number counts, like acceleration, like gunnery, like dodging ... correct me if I'm wrong and -1TH translates to +1 Hit there.

QUOTE

About Support Operation: You can not use it for prolonged activities. Your sprites do the service for 3secs/rating point. Watch those intervals on extended tests. I would not count modifiers that are not there the whole time.

Interesting point. This essentially takes sprite support out of hacking, or does it? Though we're still talking seconds here, so ...

Ryu

Mar 31 2008, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 31 2008, 10:17 PM)

I know. Not in the English rules though, and those are the basis for this discussion. I've fallen into that trap too, twice, already.

Ok, another thing I learned in this thread. Thanks for the heads-up.

Ryu

Mar 31 2008, 10:28 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 31 2008, 11:11 PM)

-1 Threshold is worthless in tests where just the hit number counts, like acceleration, like gunnery, like dodging ... correct me if I'm wrong and -1TH translates to +1 Hit there.

Interesting point. This essentially takes sprite support out of hacking, or does it? Though we're still talking seconds here, so ...

I was only talking about maneuver tests. I like the acceleration rules... somewhat less than other rules, but you are right. The TM speeds up faster.

Gunnery/dodging leads into an area where I concede the higher DP to the TM (who is a full-blown rigger, too), but say that the lost actions and options outweight the small advantage. A TM-rigger should focus on providing matrix security for a drone network, thats what he´s good at. But jumping in, the best thing he can do in combat, benefits from quite a list of augmentations.

Jaid

Mar 31 2008, 10:59 PM

oh, another comment... someone mentioned earlier about the TM needing to spend an action every turn controlling the vehicle while the rigger does not?

not true. the rigger still needs to spend an action controlling the vehicle, just like the TM.

it's cyborgs that don't need to spend an action controlling their vehicle.

Ryu

Mar 31 2008, 11:19 PM

I understood that "control like the riggers body" in the RAW on Jumping In meant naturally, without spending an IP. Can we have a verdict on this?

hermit

Mar 31 2008, 11:22 PM

So both rigger and TM have to spend an Action controlling the vehicle they've jumped into, but the TM had better DP when shooting, dodging, accellerating, better at controlling when using threaded Command (with some luck) and equal to the rigger in terms of vehicle controlling when jumped in, and though the TM cannot advance as fast as the Rigger can, he can advance steadily and endlessly while the Rigger hits that damn hardcap pretty fast and has to either branch out into a broader character concept (negating the idea of the mundane vehicle rigger in my book) or just stagnate and become obsolete.

Or have I misunderstood things?

Ryu

Mar 31 2008, 11:34 PM

No, you haven´t. The TM has to spend actions on getting Support Operations, and can´t do Full defense on an interupt, but he has more dice.

The rigger will only stagnate when he has skill rating 6 in Perception, Gunnery, Dodge, at least 2 vehicle skills, Matrix Combat, Electronic Warfare, Hardware... some good 100+ karma before you are forced to increase anything secondary. And you can increase Edge to simulate Experience.

Eyeless Blond

Mar 31 2008, 11:52 PM

and pick Aptitude if your GM will allow it. They can also pick up Reflex Recorders, Attention Coprocessors, and all those other perception boosters, Reakt, Qualia and PuSHeD genetic goodies, etc, though I'm not sure if Reakt will help with vehicle dodge.

hermit

Mar 31 2008, 11:59 PM

Well, yes. But after some 150 Karma, the TM will have most CFs at 7 or highter and thread himself to insane DP.

@Eyeless: No, Reakt isn't too helpful for Riggers, as mainly Response is used in it's place (if I am not mistaken, at least).

Which other perception boosters? And what do you mean by Qualia and PuShEd genetic goodies?

Eyeless Blond

Apr 1 2008, 12:15 AM

Qualia adds dice to Perception and Navigation; PuSHeD to mechanic and electronics skills. PuSHeD is especially useful for hackers, as it adds to the skill rather than the Logic attribute, so it helps even for hacking tests where Logic, and thus cerebral boosters, don't help.

hermit

Apr 1 2008, 12:48 AM

Ah, the geneware, something I don't have as present as I'd propably would like to have it. Yes, that gives some nice boosts, though not above one dice on logic, two on intuition (at the price of having a mosquito's attention span) and a +2 to reaction (that would be Reakt, Pushed, Qualia, Dynomitan). Nothing to really catch up with Technos, if you want to develop both characters over more than a few runs.

Larme

Apr 1 2008, 02:55 AM

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 31 2008, 07:59 PM)

Well, yes. But after some 150 Karma, the TM will have most CFs at 7 or highter and thread himself to insane DP.

Have you ever played a game that gets to 150 karma? I sure haven't, except on a MUX where you get karma for doing nothing, essentially. Honestly, at 100+ karma, mages should ALWAYS kick the crap out of mundanes. The mundanes can still be useful, because with that much karma they will have broadened their abilities quite a bit. But 100+ karma is mage town. That's true for TMs too. If mages rocking everyone at high karma levels offends you, all you can do about it is remove magic from your game. But if you don't, you're going to have to learn to live with it.

MaxHunter

Apr 1 2008, 05:16 AM

Firstly I have to state that I have learned a lot with this thread. I was about not to read it at all, considering Jaid's blunt confrontational attitude at the beginning, but I am glad I read on because I got some deep insight into an area of the game I feel weak, plus Jaid is starting to show some manners. :smile

@Larme: on high karma games. I have to disagree with you and I tell you why. I am currently GMing a couple groups and one of them has reached about 170 karma and is still going strong. We have made some calculations and these runners have about 18 runs under each's belts, some of them taking 4+ sessions to complete, with an average of two. Of course, only three characters have survived that long, there is one with maybe 100 karma and a pool of about 4 or 5 other characters who have died, have retired or split from that group. None of the players running those characters feels close to hitting the ceiling. I estimate that might start to resemble a problem at about 250 karma, if then. One of them is an adept, grade 2 initiate and now has just finished "polishing" his missing skills and is beginning to learn martial arts and maneuvers. He could still play for another 200 karma and would still be unhappy. The ork samurai had to invest heavy karma to remove flaws that were there from chargen and started to be crippling as the run's demands became harsher. (uncultured) He also needed new skills he had never considered when his career started. (disguise, diving, parachuting) All of those came into play more than once in their careers and it has been a wise decision to get them, even at the cost of perfecting skills (5 +2 at pistols, for example). Edge has been a priority for everyone too, and still these guys are at 4, 4, 5. The third one is a dwarf former company man who wasn't really min-maxed at chargen and had to pay to get more optimized. He is also now doubling as... a rigger; well, actually a designated driver, so there is a long road ahead. (I believe he has 2 +2 in ground craft, for example)

I certainly do not believe a TM could have survived until now -or would be viable now, even with a 150+ karma upgrade. They are just too focused, too expensive, too limited and need babysitting. I am not saying they would not be fun, not at all. What I strongly disagree with is Hermit's vision of the evil TM's owning everyone. From game experience what took these particular characters this far (and buried the rest) has been more smart choices, resilience and -primarily- their ability to react effectively when things did not turn out as they expected. The last two of these areas a TM would probably be lacking, DP to DP comparisons just don't cut it, there is a much broader picture to consider.

Plus, a great character only needs that: character. Being the best of the best at one limited aspect of the game is just bells and whistles IMO.

I still have the feeling I would not like to play with Hermit's GM, but I might be wrong, just a feeling.

Just to repeat myself: Great thread, many things learned.

Cheers

Max

hermit

Apr 1 2008, 07:51 AM

QUOTE

Have you ever played a game that gets to 150 karma?

Yes. It's fairly common among the people I play with to have characters with 200 or more Karma. some 400 isn't unheared of, and there also are a few four digit Karma characters around.

QUOTE

If mages rocking everyone at high karma levels offends you, all you can do about it is remove magic from your game. But if you don't, you're going to have to learn to live with it.

Keep magic out of this. Mages do different things than mundanes. Technomancers chime in on what mundanes can do and beat them at it. And Technos aren't mages, they work differently and are fairly unbalanced in just how powerful they are, combining the relative power of mages and the aspect of doing what mundanes do, only better, of adepts.

Ryu

Apr 1 2008, 11:29 AM

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 1 2008, 08:51 AM)

Yes. It's fairly common among the people I play with to have characters with 200 or more Karma. some 400 isn't unheared of, and there also are a few four digit Karma characters around.

Under those conditions, you are either awakened or a TM or you have to branch out.

Larme

Apr 1 2008, 11:30 AM

QUOTE (MaxHunter @ Apr 1 2008, 12:16 AM)

...

I'm pretty much on your side. I think you make some good points. I just wanted to say that the fact of a mage blowing mundanes out of the water at high karma shouldn't be cause for alarm ever. If they don't even do that, then obviously there's nothing to complain about

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 1 2008, 02:51 AM)

Keep magic out of this. Mages do different things than mundanes. Technomancers chime in on what mundanes can do and beat them at it. And Technos aren't mages, they work differently and are fairly unbalanced in just how powerful they are, combining the relative power of mages and the aspect of doing what mundanes do, only better, of adepts.

I won't keep magic out of this. Mages only do some things that mundanes can't, most pertinently astral stuff. But a lot of their abilities directly encroach on what mundanes can do, namely combat. Why should a sammy bother, if a mage can hurl a force 12 stunball and knock out all the enemies? Mages at high karma can spell themselves up to make samurai look weak by comparison. The downside? It takes a lot of karma to get there. And in the meantime, the samurai will rock everything. And the samurai at high karma can still be useful because though he is less powerful, he is more versatile. And what about Adepts? Virtually nothing they do is unique to Adepts. They duplicate sammies, but they have no hard cap like sammies.

Technomancers are just magical versions of hackers. They do what hackers do, only they start out worse and eventually (very eventually) become better. It's the same for Magicians, it's the same for Adepts. The thing you are whinging about is endemic to the system. It is a core dynamic of Shadowrun. The only way to solve this problem is to remove magic (and resonance) from the game. If you want to play a mundane, you have to accept that while they have advantages, they also have disadvantages. You're really not even complaining about their disadvantages though, you're just upset because one archetype, far in the future, can possibly become better than another (and people don't even agree with you fully on that, so it's questionable HOW much better they can become). Deal with it! If TMs are so great, play one! If you don't play one, maybe it's because they're not so great? It's not like someone held a gun to your head and say "play a mundane rigger," and now you're frustrated that riggers aren't good enough for you. You get to choose to play a mundane, and you get to choose how to deal with the consequences. You can house rule TMs out of rigging, you make make a TM, or you can just play the game without worrying whether some other archetype could be theoretically better than you.

Fuchs

Apr 1 2008, 11:42 AM

Not everyone wants to play a TM (or a metahuman), no matter how great they are.

Ryu

Apr 1 2008, 12:29 PM

The key problem in this case is not the TM vs. mundane character advancement. A TM can, from the get-go, create program ratings a mundane hacker/rigger can never hope to achive. And the Command mechanic allows to use this program rating with almost any skill. Once one has figured out how TMs work, basically all matrix mechanics break apart, too. See Support Operation used on the Attack CF, or on Stealth CF. It is beyond me how the wireless rules survived playtesting. Lets all hope for Unwired.

Once you have taken away Command Ratings that leave the expected scale of 1-6 with a factor of 2.5, the TM dominating the rigger in any way is OVER.

Larme

Apr 1 2008, 04:14 PM

QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 1 2008, 07:42 AM)

Not everyone wants to play a TM (or a metahuman), no matter how great they are.

And that's their choice. I'm sick of people saying choosing to play sub-optimal characters, and complaining that they're sub-optimal. Your character, your choice. The system doesn't concern itself with whether you refuse to play a TM, the system offers you mundanes and TMs and you choose which to play. You think one is totally better? Play it. Don't want to? That's your choice. It not the system's fault, and it is not grounds to complain.

ArkonC

Apr 1 2008, 04:28 PM

And even more, it's not as if the TM can easily become completely overpowered...
Even if you start with resonance 6, it takes 70 Karma to submerge to grade 4, and 102 karma to actually raise resonance to 10...
And then you still haven't improved a single CF...
A mundane rigger would improve a lot of DPs for that 172 karma...
I think people seem to think too much of the uncappedness of TMs (and mages and adepts for that matter)...
Yes, they are uncapped, but I've yet to see a mage with 12 magic, of a TM with 12 resonance for that matter...

hermit

Apr 1 2008, 04:48 PM

QUOTE

Under those conditions, you are either awakened or a TM or you have to branch out.

No, you aren't playing SR4, you're playing third. In third, you could boost skill for mundanes endlessly, giving you nice opportunities to waste tons of Karma (also, there's this supernatural attributes at horrendous cost rule that, for instance, would quite easily allow a night one mundane non-cybered characters to have 2 IP - Quickness 10, 10+1d6 always is two IP, pushing the attribute well below the supernatural maximum of 12, even).

Actually, most people I know have main characters with three-digit Karma scores, now that I think of it.

QUOTE

They do what hackers do, only they start out worse and eventually (very eventually) become better.

No. They start out equal and only get better, whereas the mundane will have very little development. Now, if you don't oplay characters beyond 100 Karma, fine, but don't go around proclaiming everyone who doesn't abide by your playing style is a moron.

QUOTE

And what about Adepts? Virtually nothing they do is unique to Adepts. They duplicate sammies, but they have no hard cap like sammies.

Actually, they DO have hard caps that keep them kind of in check (at least with Skill and attribute increases). Aside from Rigger adepts, Adepts have lost quite some power in 4.

QUOTE

I'm sick of people saying choosing to play sub-optimal characters, and complaining that they're sub-optimal. Your character, your choice.

Aww. I feel, like, so guilty now.

Seriously, if you can't stand the heat, don't stay close to the fire. In other words: If you don't like this thread, there's noone forcing you to participate in it.

QUOTE

The key problem in this case is not the TM vs. mundane character advancement. A TM can, from the get-go, create program ratings a mundane hacker/rigger can never hope to achive. And the Command mechanic allows to use this program rating with almost any skill. Once one has figured out how TMs work, basically all matrix mechanics break apart, too. See Support Operation used on the Attack CF, or on Stealth CF. It is beyond me how the wireless rules survived playtesting. Lets all hope for Unwired.

Nice one. QFT and all.

cryptoknight

Apr 1 2008, 04:54 PM

QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 1 2008, 11:14 AM)

And that's their choice. I'm sick of people saying choosing to play sub-optimal characters, and complaining that they're sub-optimal. Your character, your choice. The system doesn't concern itself with whether you refuse to play a TM, the system offers you mundanes and TMs and you choose which to play. You think one is totally better? Play it. Don't want to? That's your choice. It not the system's fault, and it is not grounds to complain.

So then, everybody should play a metahuman mage, adept or technomancer by what you said.

With that concept, why even have the cyberware or bioware, etc? Shadowrun should just be a game of magic... oh wait.. that's Earthdawn.

Why shouldn't a Street Samurai with 150 Karma be able to compete on some level with a mage with 150 karma? Same in the TM vs Hacker debate.

This is a Skill based, Build Point based system, this isn't D&D. A character built with 400 BP should be on an equal footing when looked at overall from any other character with 400 BP. And when you add Karma onto it later, a character built with 400 BP and having 150 Karma should be balanced to some degree with any other.

*shrug* sometimes I think that mundanes should have 9 essence instead of 6 as a balancing effect, or all magic/tm types should get stuck with sensitive system when they pick up a magic quality without getting any points back for it.

Tobias

Apr 1 2008, 05:07 PM

Not much to add to this, this has been good reading and has enlightened me to some rules I wasn't aware of. Mainly it has made me want to play a Mundane Rigger and get me Unwired ASAP preferably sooner.

Jaid

Apr 1 2008, 06:07 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 1 2008, 11:48 AM)

No. They start out equal and only get better, whereas the mundane will have very little development. Now, if you don't oplay characters beyond 100 Karma, fine, but don't go around proclaiming everyone who doesn't abide by your playing style is a moron.

i wouldn't say they start out equal at all. the technomancer is going to have to thread and/or blow services for all of the CFs he isn't allowed to start with. the hacker/rigger/whatever else mundane just needs to get his hands on a decent commlink, some decent skillwires, and the right programs, when it comes down to it, and will already be pretty solid with just that. assuming the hacker/rigger whatever doesn't just start with them all already.

TMs don't really start equal to their mundane counterparts. they're *way* too different to compare, imo. stronger or weaker will depend largely on what you want to do, and who's designing the characters.

hermit

Apr 1 2008, 06:21 PM

QUOTE

i wouldn't say they start out equal at all.

Equal (though with different approaches) in all vehicle control relevat skills. Yes, the mancers will propably not live up to the rigger sam in the real world, but I am talking about what riggers used to be ahead of others in.

Larme

Apr 1 2008, 06:34 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 1 2008, 11:48 AM)

Seriously, if you can't stand the heat, don't stay close to the fire. In other words: If you don't like this thread, there's noone forcing you to participate in it.

I'm not complaining about my choice to participate in this thread. I choose to participate, and I choose to lambast those with whom I disagree. This is dissimilar from what you seem to be doing: choosing to play a mundane, and then whinging about how that isn't the optimal choice. You dig your own grave. The system is neutral, you're the one who's using it badly. You're wishing that the system worked exactly the way you want it to. You're wishing that you could follow your normal preferences for playing a mundane rigger, and that the system would keep you on top of the heap, whether it's at 1 karma or 200 karma. I'm sorry that the system doesn't suit you exactly perfectly, but you don't have a valid objective criticism. You have a complaint based on a personal preference which is unique to you (and those few who share it) and not actually a problem with the system itself.

hermit

Apr 1 2008, 07:04 PM

Fine, you said your part and are free to go now.

Can we please get back on topic now? I think we were setting up a car chase scenario.

Now, I propose NPC vehicles having Firewall 5 minimum, since noone wants random car crashes due to bored code kiddies. Device rating = response = 3 on NPC random bypasser vehicles. Also, I'd treat all GridGuide-relevant devices as security, seeinga s how it was always emphathised what a black hole GG was ... hence, your average traffic lights would have a DR of 4 and firewall 6 running, with randomly patrolling Agents (4?) running analyse, wandering from node to node, checking for probblems, and dormant Lv4 IC agents with attack 4 in case an alarm is sound.

Comments, suggestions for the rest of the scneario? dense/low traffic? Hghway, back streets in Redmond, or suburbia?

Whipstitch

Apr 1 2008, 07:07 PM

The point being that Riggers can crush 90% of the gameworld in their chosen specialty and don't have to cripple themselves to get there. If you want to omgwtfpwnzor all comers in raw Matrix manipulation or remote controlled combat, then yes, you want to play a TM, since that's kinda what they do. Just don't be surprised if your TM is so weak meatside that he could get beaten up by a feisty housecat. Non-mundanes are the bleeding edge specialists now while mundanes are extremely competent and often have the Edge and bps leftover to sleaze through sticky situations outside of their specialty as well.

Ryu

Apr 1 2008, 10:11 PM

Well, riggers certainly can´t complain about a weak overall position on the food chain. Ask your samurai how they feel about security using optimised Dobermans and MCT Rotordrones.

Many campaigns reach the 100+ mark, thats about 20 games for many groups. What surprised me were the four-digit scores. I think I have never seen that. A real rigger will have attributes and secondary skills to improve before he thinks about the primary ones. The option of being a drone network controller is very strong, and you can do that with AR. Then there are way more rigging-related skills than those I listed. Our previous rigger char did not even have all *needed* skills at decent scores when he reached 170 karma. And most players like to branch out.

hermit

Apr 1 2008, 11:09 PM

My longest-played character has some 900 Karma used and about ... maybe 200 burned (Riggers are nuyen black holes). Played that one since ... well, a damn long time.

I know of a streetsam with some 1400 Karma (played for some 7 years, has really insane firearms skills), two adepts way beyond 1000 (one sort of optimised as sneak/thief and one very optimised as fighter/face), a mystical adept with some 900 Karma used, and a Wolf shaman with about 800. All played for at the very least 5 years in ongoung groups, through more than one campaign. But yes, those are rather extreme cases. Characters around 300 Karma are fairly common, though, for all I know and have seen.

QUOTE

Well, riggers certainly can´t complain about a weak overall position on the food chain. Ask your samurai how they feel about security using optimised Dobermans and MCT Rotordrones.

Sure. I guess I just have a problem with them not being the best in what they do anymore, no matter what. Well, as you put it, let's hope for Unwired.

Larme

Apr 2 2008, 02:57 AM

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 1 2008, 06:09 PM)

My longest-played character has some 900 Karma used and about ... maybe 200 burned (Riggers are nuyen black holes). Played that one since ... well, a damn long time.

I know of a streetsam with some 1400 Karma (played for some 7 years, has really insane firearms skills), two adepts way beyond 1000 (one sort of optimised as sneak/thief and one very optimised as fighter/face), a mystical adept with some 900 Karma used, and a Wolf shaman with about 800. All played for at the very least 5 years in ongoung groups, through more than one campaign. But yes, those are rather extreme cases. Characters around 300 Karma are fairly common, though, for all I know and have seen.

Heh, well if that's how your games look, I can see why you'd be upset at the hard caps of SR4. I think that isn't typical of most peoples' games, though. You know what I'd do if I played in a setting where people generally had 300+ karma, and the caps were really getting in the way? Take away the skill cap of 6. There you go, problem solved. That was easy huh?

Fuchs

Apr 2 2008, 07:16 AM

I played in similar games, and it's why I started to play without karma. Advancement happens by GM/Group consensus, and characters are judged for balance not by the amount of BPs or Karma used, but by actual effectiveness and power in the specific campaign.

Same effect, and no power creep.

hermit

Apr 2 2008, 11:05 AM

Both are viable if all players agree on houseruling lots of stuff, and you have no powergamers to keep in check.

DMK

Apr 4 2008, 04:31 PM

[WRENCH] There we go... back on-topic.

So, let's say that my sample rigger (I posted him on Page 9) is making a courier run through Seattle at 3am. He's got his Dalmation running oversight, with the Steel Lynx alongside for additional firepower.

We'll call the terrain Restricted (Light Traffic), giving a +2 to all Thresholds for vehicle tests. Not really sure what the Air Terrain should be like... anyone have any thoughts?

So... what's up first? Trying to detect Hermit's TM Rigger's drones?

hermit

Apr 5 2008, 10:25 AM

I'd think both attempt to detect each other. For fairness' purposes, let's assume similar vehicle ratings?

Synner

Apr 5 2008, 10:37 AM

Set this in a Downtown area (imposing minor restrictions on aerial movement) and make it evening/night time (imposing visibility modifiers). This makes it a medium difficulty scenario for both sides involved and a good comparison (since its neither an extreme open-field shooting range example nor an enclosed space close-quarters maneuvering example).

I agree with hermit, have both sides running sensor checks to detect one another (one looking for its target, the other watching for possible threats).

Additionally, the technomancer should clearly specify exactly what tricks if any he's already commanded from his sprites (though sustained use of the Diagnostics Power is a bad idea since he won't know when the opposition is showing up) and how many tasks he has left from each.

Finally, the rigger should also note what precautions he's got going (Agents/IC in particular).

hermit

Apr 5 2008, 10:41 AM

Makes sense. What about police and sensors, will they interfere or do we rule their response will come after the scene, if at all?

Synner

Apr 5 2008, 10:52 AM

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 5 2008, 11:41 AM)

Makes sense. What about police and sensors, will they interfere or do we rule their response will come after the scene, if at all?

To keep this relatively even and simple, let's say the police will take longer to respond than the encounter is likely to last (which I fully expect will be true).

hermit

Apr 5 2008, 11:38 AM

Okay.

Good. Now...

Step 1: Both try to detect each other.

Step 2: Mancer orders a sprite to boost his car, one to boost the vehicle's turret, and threads himself.

Step 3: Vehicle combat begins

Suggestions for Rigger to do, and suggestions how mancer might be more effective?

Synner

Apr 5 2008, 12:21 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 5 2008, 12:38 PM)

Step 1: Both try to detect each other.

Step 2: Mancer orders a sprite to boost his car, one to boost the vehicle's turret, and threads himself.

Step 3: Vehicle combat begins

Suggestions for Rigger to do, and suggestions how mancer might be more effective?

I'd suggest taking it one Step at a time. For instance, just Step 2 is going to cost the TM multiple actions which, assuming both sides detected one another, gives the rigger plenty of time to make some moves of his own.