1) You got 12 hits with a pool of 20? That's a hell of a roll, a 1.3 in 100 kind of roll. Should we really be basing out comparisons on that?

2) Ryu hit you with a larger dice pool, and a similar initiative, two IP earlier. If you can't make your shot by IP 2, then you may as well go home; he'll have hit you three times by then.

Ryu hit me? I must've overlooked that ... should be dodgeable though. Tomorrow, however, too tired for maths now.

Sensor signal is about range. Medium drones can have radar rating 6 installed, with only audio and video on top of that. Should be overall rating 6. Where is the maximum level 4 sensors rule?

Anyways, the greatest limit at chargen is money.



I don´t see that great an advantage for the TM - the rigger can go hot-sim, too, has a control rig, a smartlink, and can use sensors extremely well. Rigging is a prolonged activity. Whenever combat starts, the TM powers up his sprite tricks. Thats one IP lost for the TM, on top of the one IP spend on driving to avoid a crash test. The jumped-in rigger has to consider if he can hit in passive mode (depends on negative mods).

Without support operation, the TMs dice pools are nothing to write home about. He will already be better off jumping in himself.

The rule as of Arsenal is that when making general Sensor Tests (such as when Targeting) you use the Vehicle's Sensor Rating.

Though it is not explicit, and will probably warrant a FAQ, this assumes that the Rating of all individual sensors (in the Vehicle's default Sensor Package) is equal to the Vehicle's Sensor Rating. "If a character improves the ratings of all of the individual components in a sensor package, the overall Sensor rating of the vehicle should also be improved accordingly" (p.105, Arsenal). Characters engaging in any "normal" use of Sensors, including in Combat, are assumed to be using the combined feed from the entire sensor package.

Per the rule on p.105, the option is left to the gamemaster to allow in specific circumstances the use of an individual sensor rather than the complete package/suite. This option is not intended for Combat since anyone of those single sensors would be hardpressed to provide a complete targeting resolution; but rather it is aimed at allowing the pilot/rigger the use of cameras, microphones, ultrawideband radar or even radar for the specific functions they are designed for (something which might be useful if that particular sensor is higher rated than the remaining ones, or if you simply want to film or record a conversation with the vehicle mounted cam or mike).

I understand this will require further clarification, particularly as regards combat, but that is the ruling as of Arsenal. And yes, there is an inconsistency in that you can strip your array down to a Rating 6 Radar and say that your Vehicle Sensor (the only one) is now Rating 6. This was noted, unfortunately too late to modify in the first printing but will likely feature in the first errata. Though I can't confirm at the moment the ammendment will like require that a Vehicle/Drone Sensor package include at least 1 Camera, 1 Laser Range Finder, 1 Motion Sensor, and Radar.

That approach has issues with capacity.

The main problem is that the given sensor ratings don´t fit with the idea of near perfect (ratingless) audio and video sensors. If the drone delivers audio and video data, a normal perception check should be in order. The given mechanics imply that radar is used, too - there are no environment mods. The published sensor stats even make sense if sensor refers mostly to radar rating - the pilot would drive by optical data, enhanced by radar (through corners and such). Would it need to perceive its surroundings with Pilot 3+Sensor 1, pedestrians would be open season (a DP of 1).

Consistency could be maintained by adding "optical targeting": Intuition+Gunnery / Pilot+Weapon Soft, using visual mods, requires gun-cam.

Huh, that's very odd. Synner, you seem to be implying that there is something in a vehicle's Sensor pachage that is separate from the individual sensors. Where is this written in the book, and, if that's so, what do you do to upgrade Sensors, beyond upgrading the individual components of the Sensor package?

Ugh, the more I read these rules the more they confuse and annoy me. Bah; I didn't like rigger rules in SR3 either.

From what Synner posted in the Cyclops thread, all the sensors in the standard vehicle package ie cameras etc will be getting a erratta for SR4 and Arsenal, will be getting additional ratings.

If all devices in a sensor suite have the same rating that makes the sensor rating. So with the promised erratta/additions you upgrade all the devices in a Sensor Suite rating 1 from rating 1 to what ever sensor rating you wish the sensor suite rating to be.

Now is that clear enough? Yes about as clear as concrete.

WMS

Ratings in cameras and audio recievers will likely reflect the number of enhancements that can be plugged in to the basic system (and the sophistication of the cameras underlying software/firmware and other functionalities) rather than simple quality. Depending on the sensor some ratings will likely affect range/signal and others function. The exact tweaks are still under discussion.


No Piloting or Sensor Tests are expected/required to get into a car and drive somewhere at a safe speed and following traffic rules (regardless of whether the driver is a human or a Pilot program), Tests are only called for when unusual maneuvers and situations come up. Should a pedestrian suddenly jump into the street in front of a Pilot 3 + Sensor 1 vehicle, then the vehicle might need to make a Sensor Test (if the gamemaster doesn't allow an automatic trade in) and then it makes whatever Piloting Test is required to stop.

As noted above the tweaks have not been finalized.

So is or isn't sensor rating capped at 4 now?

As I've mentioned above it need not be, because as written there's a loophole in the Arsenal rules. That said the errata will probably end up putting a cap at 6 for civilian vehicular systems (assuming the right mix of sensors). It shouldn't affect the example either way since whatever works for the TM works for the rigger.

My reasoning would be more that I've found the arsenal sensor rules awfully repressive and cutting ratings down too much in general, creating absurditiers like the emotitoy drone with an AEGIS cruiser's sensor suite, so it's good to know that is getting errata'd. And your wording implies that military sensor suites can still be effectively open-ended?

People are making waaay too much fuss about a typo. Regardless, all Vehicle Sensor packages are listed as they come out off the shelf. Military grade upgrades and modifications are indeed possible, though the scale won't be open-ended.

It would be nice if video and audio sensors used the same mechanics everyone already knows, and are the mainstay of drone piloting, together with either cheapo motion sensors or full-blown radar. Everything else is a feature.



You are aware of the signature mod table. The trade in requires a DP of 4, the RAW optimum is 3. This is allowed to be auto-piloted?

I shall attempt to wait for the errata now


The TM does not need a sensor rating, as he is firing his weapons with Command + Gunnery. Still, my points remain
- the rigger has similar dicepools due to higher skill and control rig
- the rigger fires first
- the rigger does not need an IP to control the vehicle
- whenever you are not controlling your drone, it is a sitting duck. The rigger has way more freedom on top of more IP.
- once the TM jumps in, too, he is not on even ground with the rigger due to missing augments

Any comments on the rigger skeleton I posted?

What typo? I do not get the rating limit of 4 at all. And I searched. Can someone point me?

I'm quite interested in these sensor rating modifications. As far as I can tell its difficult for a sensor rating to be above 3, unless you only have a radar in it. Atmospheric Sensor caps at 3 currently, and there are no ratings to cameras, laser range finders, or motion sensors. And Radar can't be what everything is based on, considering Radar won't fit in any vehicle except a car. The emotitoy has a sensor rating 3, but pretty much has no ratable sensors (I use camera, laser range finder, and motion sensor as standard for this size drone).

I'm waiting anxiously for more information on sensors/packages. I've devised ways for whats currently there to work, trying to stay within the rules (I use vision enhancement as rating for cameras), but clearer rules would make this alot easier.

SR3 had the following ruling on sensor components:

0: range finder, laser proximity sensors and ultrasound
1: all above, and video, radar, signature recognition software, low light, magnification (50 x sensor maximum)
2-4: all above, and infrared
5+: all above, and flare compensation

Note how effectively that defeats even improved invisibility against any vehicles. I houseruled that the radar's signal equals sensor rating back then, since I found no corresponding ruling for that and it's nicely in line with the magnification's ruling.

I only have the German BBB3, so p.135 won't help many people here, I guess.

*Bump*

Can we get on with the comparison?

Heh, got a little distracted with Sensors, didn't we?

The problem is, it is significant, extremely so, because the rigger and TM are using different rules. The rigger is using sensor-enhanced Indirect Fire, which is doubly dependent on Sensor rating, while the TM is using the Command rules, which don't use Sensors at all.


Despite this, so far we have hermit/Bishop firing on IP 4, with an impressive (and statistically unlikely) 12 hits using a dice pool of 20 for the attack, ending in 23P damage.

Ryu interrupted in IP 2 with a DP 22 attack. He didn't actually roll his dice, but assuming statistically likely results it's going to be 7.33 hits. I don't know what the damage is there, but it's also likely killer as well.

What part of the comparison is missing? Usage of Command is way inferior to jumping in as means of controlling a drone - as it should be. The lost IPs show that. If the TM jumps in, too, he can not make use of Support Operation any longer.

I´m still open to discuss the bare-bones rigger vs rigger-TM as char-builds.

Can't the TM dodge the attack? He's got some 20 dice, so dodging 7 hits should be possible ...?

But if sensores are indeed able to exceed 4, that kind of balances things out. Still, the fact that threading equals ~1,33 hits more remains, giving the Techno a distinct 4 dice edge.

But I'm open to either a bare-bones discussion or doing a more complicated maneuver.

The TM can dodge the attack while he is spending his IPs on controlling the drone. Then it does cost him the IPs as usual, as normal defense still uses Response only. So he can dodge if he wins initiative, yes. His "mere" 1.33 hits more are paid for by spending one IP per round on driving, and the first simple action on ordering "Support Operation". Once he does not shoot, the offense goes to the rigger.

One major advantage of my approach is the option for everyone on my net to use information-guided (in)direct fire. I have a all combat drones set up to fire on any target I aquire, and relay targeting information to the samurai, too. I do that on the first IP (2nd simple action), the TM needs a complex action for the same trick(Command Device action).

(And the TM can be subbed with a Rigger using Command Device. The approach is still not better at combat, even with +7 dice on top of usual command ratings. The TM can be a bad rigger for cheap (skill ratings of 1), but not compete with a good one without substantial rigging skills and jumping-in. As in actually having everything a good rigger needs.)

How does he have 20 dice to dodge? Can you break that down for me?

He uses Command to make the drone dodge, doesnt he? That's 10, +5 response (TM link = resonance) and +4 from that sprite of his. That's 19.

For Full Defense, you are Rolling Dodge+Command CF+Support Operation Service+Threading+Hot Sim bonus, so about 20 dice is appropiate.

In order to be entitled to make the drone dodge, you need to have spend the previous IP on controlling the drone. Command device itself is not a legal interrupt action, even if doing defensive interrupt actions for a Commanded drone is IMO kosher.

Actually I believe he would need to be holding an action. You are correct that Command device is not a legal interrupt action and this was a design decision - favoring full immersion "jumping in" over AR remote control. This is not to say a drone's Pilot can't do Dodge, its just that the technomancer or rigger Controlling it can't.

Forgot the skill.




Well, he has nothing to do on IP2, so ... I guess that counts as holding.



Or does it?


Okay, that makes sense (and gives a little boost to jumping in, though ... well, nowhere near what it used to be). So the drone pilot would have to dodge using it's autopilot + autosoft + sprite?

It would be Pilot + Defense Autosoft or alternately Sprite + Defense Autosoft. I'm don't believe there's anything the sprite can do to reactively help the drone Pilot under the rules.

just to clear things up, hermit...

it's not response + command + etc... command *replaces* response (or rather it replaces reaction, which is replaced by response for jumped-in drivers). so your dice pool for that was a little off. likewise (and the reason i quoted the above) it's not drone autopilot + autosoft + sprite. the sprite *replaces* the drone pilot. as such, it would be either drone pilot (+defense autosoft for full dodge) or sprite rating (+autosoft for full dodge) bearing in mind that the sprite cannot use a normal autosoft and a drone cannot use a sprite autosoft.

which is why when people say that machine sprites are awesome for piloting drones in combat, i look at them funny... to me, you're looking at rating 9 at least before i can agree with that (you need at least 3 between maneuver, targeting, defense, and clearsight imo... heaven forbid you should need more than 1 type of targeting autosoft for your weapon of choice [ares alpha anyone?] or if you should also need it to perform EW type actions.)

so yeah, unless you allow multiple pilots/sprites/riggers for one vehicle, i'm not impressed with sprites as far as drone controlling. don't get me wrong, the whole 'pick an autosoft' bit is awesome, but it's awesome because you can effectively give it almost any skill you could possibly imagine (of particular interest to the TM rigger should be the fact that there are canon engineering autosofts now, in that aircraft repair drone in arsenal)

arguably, the sprite could use the diagnostics power.

Though not reactively, it would have to be a) in the drone node (and not with the technomancer), b) it would have to be holding an action or c) it would have to have been told to maintain the Diagnostics power previously which it hadn't as far as I can tell in this scenario. Furthermore this is assuming the sprite is aiding the drone's Pilot, if it's in control of the drone rather than a Pilot then that the Diagnostics power is not an option since it isn't intended to aid the sprite itself.

Yes.

Sprites are best used to provide matrix security for the drone network, lowering the overall IC load. They can also make good spy drone pilots, especially since you can get "Pilot" 5 + Clearsight 5 to run on an off-the-rack Microskimmer, tasked to monitor the sensors (Perception Pool of 11 for 1k¥). And things like Remote Demolitions (Disarm) tests are way more comfortable with a Command of 12 going in. But straight-out combat rigging goes to the rigger. If you need to hold an action to dodge, you are out in rigger combat. Its sufficient that you need one IP for general piloting (or face a crash test).

hermit:

IP 2 (Simple, Simple)
Order Sprites 1 & 2 to jump into Lynxes and attack Van
Order Sprite 3 to Assist Operation (Command)

You're not holding an action to dodge with Command; you're ordering sprites around. Ryu basically caught you with your pants down, which means you only get Reaction(Response) to dodge, then Body+Armor to soak.

Oh, wait, the sprite/pilot's in control, as mentioned above. N/m that last sentence.

Question: *can* you let the pilot do some things, while you do others in the same drone? Let the Pilot do maneuvering, for example, while you spend your actions on Gunnery?

My standard reply is that if you've told your sprite to seize control it's not going to let go and let the Pilot take over for an action just because it's convenient for you. That said, I've allowed players to give more complex commands to a drone Pilot with a sprite inside the node (as in "support and assist the drone Pilot's actions and take control if necessary to preserve the drone").

In the given scenario, the diagnostics power is the obvious choice for the two lynxes, as it just adds boni to the pilot, so far as I understand.

Note that is only possible if the machine sprites (in the drones) are not Piloting. Furthermore, Diagnostics still requires a roll (sprite rating x2 and each hit adds 1 die to the Pilot's dice pool) and a task would have had to be expended before the scene for the sprite to be maintaining Diagnostics (as a continuing task) and for it to come into play in a defense roll.

This constant adjustment is another example of why I dislike this playtesting scenario, but it does go to show a technomancer is highly dependent on having his ducks all set up in a row before getting involved in the action. If he doesn't have everything pre-planned and all the deck stacked in his favor (every single time) he's screwed.

Point taken. If he does, though, he is pretty much unstoppable by even an advanced rigger character. Please note that this is a starter, zero Karma, oh-so-puny technomancer character, not one who has some 50 KArma under his belt.

But okay, let's try a different scenario. Say, a car race? Both riger and mancer have a standard-isse EC Westwind, mancer again has his 3 sprites and can thread beforehand?

Then we can try a random street race WITHOUT mancer being able to thread himself into godlikeness, see how that compares?

I beg to disagree, I think they're pretty evenly match even then - even the Diagnostics power of the machine sprites is only going to change the drones' dice pool by 2 dice on average.

I'm getting the impression you haven't played technomancers before because if you had you would know that 50 karma and even a couple of Submersions won't change the equation much.


Cool, as long as the rigger can have his 3 Rating 6 agents too.

Yes, I haven't played them much. And please also mind threading (if using the command CF). But yeah, when jumped in, he's on his own, pretty mich. Though a Resonance increase would significantly push the mancer. And that doesn't include allt he pimping they'll propably see in Emergence.


Rating 4, just like the mancer has to live with starter character restrictions, but sure, he can. I don't really see how they will be useful in a race that should be (for starters) purely about machine control, something you say riggers outclass technomancers in.

meh.

Probably just my fabled bad luck with the dice, but I remember horribly crippling my out of the box TM compiling rating 3 sprites. I don't have the stats on hand, but the build was fairly balanced around TM related skills and powers.

At least with a rigger your dice pool bonus is inherent, and not dependent on a few lucky or not so lucky rolls to get sprites and thread their CFs.

I found TMs to be rather screwed since in order to get decent persona stats they need to sink a lot of BPs into attributes, while the rigger/hacker can just buy the gear for a lot less.

Actually I said nothing of the sort. I said that a technomancer rigger build would beat a rigger by a minimal difference. I also get the impression that you're missing the point with the whole technomancer/rigger thing. The point is that they're two different types of rigger. They do the same thing in different ways and with different advantages and disadvantages and both generally bury the "mundane" opposition. Sort of like the way Shamans and Hermetics operated in previous editions and not unlike how a Face adept and face magician are two different types of augmented face characters.

Why would they be useful? Because they can attack the opponent's car/defend yours during the race.

For the record, the race is yet another bad playtest scenario simply because it amounts to a dice pool comparison - and has just been shown the comparative advantages and disadvantages of both types of riggers are not clear cut (ie. dicepools are useless when the circumstances or the planning doesn't allow for their use).

If you want a proper challenge then make it a chase scene through a heavy downtown traffic with a TM trying to intercept the fleeing rigger with any and all the assets at his disposal (and then run it the other way round).

Since riggers heavily depend on their attributes, buyable gear is less of an isse to them (and except for CFs, mancers can buy stuff like drones too, at the same cost). So yes, Riggers can adance more quickly and will hit their limit very soon, too. Little room for development there compared to the mancer rigger.


I varied between a race where the TM could plan ahead and one where he couldn't, to illustrate the difference there (and see what impact that'd have). But okay, let's try for the complicated scene then, though I'd like to have a few things clarified then, like how average npc vehicles are protected against hacking, whetehr or not they run on autopilot, manual or VR control, whether police drones/patrols are present, whether or not there are hackable pop-up barriers the mancer can use to stop the Rigger ...


If back in the day only Hermetics were allowed to initiate (because the shaman would have such insane boni through their totem and insta-summon-spirits, whereas the hermetic would have to expend lots of time and money on every spirit), then that would be a viable comparison.

To sum it up: My peeves with how Riggers are handled in SR4 are:
- Riggers can hardly advance. Their skills and programs are all capped at 6, 76 if you count bought aptitude edges. To mancers, there is no limit.
- Mancers can boost their program ratings to insane levels of 10 and (with some initiations) even higher, and can use sprites for even more DP boni. Granted, those are dependent on luck, but a +4 would be minimum. Riggers get a fixed and not so impressive bonus they can never increase.
- With Sprites and Threading, a single Rigger cannot ever hope to stop a Technomancer with some time to prepare himself.
- Since mancers can also use agents, drones and have them run programs and add to them via diagnosing sprites, better equipment won't really help Riggers anyway.

- Diagnostics may not be used on vehicles. See The Word, in the description of the power.

- Command is not even close to being an alternative for combat. One IP less due to piloting requirements, no dodge without holding an action, complex action for sensor tests, not being able to command other drones while controlling the primary one... and spending time on sp

- Sprites are limited by their autosoft collection, Pilots are more numerous and more versatile.


So where are we? The TM will ultimately have a few more dice if he uses a generally inferior way of piloting. I say ultimately because the BP for Resonance, Tasking Group and CFs have to come from somewhere. Rating 5 registered sprite-services are not easy to get for your current build, and a riggers time should be spend in the workshop. Then there is the whole business with karma costs for improving mental stats, CFs, resonance, Submersion...

Since you aren't particularly familiar with the technomancer rules I'm going to assume you're not factoring in the distinction (and costs associated) between Submerging and raising Resonance. Not only is Submersion karma intensive but all it adds is a Submersion grade and an Echo. Given the current batch of Echoes, the only way this is going to significantly affect the technomancer's dicepools is by subsequently raising Resonance (and since Resonance tends to start high anyway, that's pretty expensive). Furthermore given the lower skill and Att base the technomancer has if he starts raising skills, Atts, or buying CFs that is karma sunk into stuff that won't go into either Submersion or Resonance increases. Just look at your character on page 4.


Seriously? A well-rounded rigger skill-wise won't start at 6 (though he might have a couple of specializations), he'll start at 4 or 5 in several skills and he'll have a varied skill base that will cover pretty much everything he needs with ample room for growth. The technomancer development is open-ended (like a magician's) in theory. In practice, not so much. A starting technomancer has so many areas to catch up on that he's an even bigger karma sink than a magician.

I've been GMing a few characters for 3 years straight now and only one has saved up the karma to increase a skill from 5 to 6. There's a lot of griping about the hard caps in general, but they rarely come into play unless you start with a skill at 6 in the first place.


It's not just dependent on luck, there is most definitely a downside in Fading particularly at the ratings you're talking about. High rating complex forms are less impressive when you have to subtract damage modifiers from your dice pool.

As for the Diagnosis power, the sprites the technomancer you posted can call are going to be granting all of +2 dice on average.


Not true. By the same logic if the rigger has time to prepare he can give a technomancer a run for his money. Scores of agents Agents will keep the technomancer's sprites and agents busy and the rigger can have more of those than the technomancer will have sprites (well, he can until Unwired comes out). For every sprite the technomancer has the rigger can match it with a cracked agent. After a certain point it becomes irrelevant and simply a matter of escalation (currently, though not for long).


And riggers can have cyber and nano-implants that will cripple a technomancer's Resonance if he goes that way.
The technomancer can try to compete with a rigger in Matrix Atts, but as your character on p. 4 shows a rigger with 20000Y will beat him stat for stat. So the advantages that technomancers have is granted by diagnosing sprites (typically 2, possibly 3 dice to the technomancer's dicepool) and Threading (which is balanced out by Fading at the ratings you're talking about).

Re Threading and fading: My assumed minimum would be +2, increasing a CF to 7 or 8, depending on how much BP you poured into Resonance at chargen. Fading isn't that much of an issue there, even with sucky attributes (our sample had willpower 3, so he'd have to soak 2P with his 9 to 10 dice - perfectly possible if your dice don't hate you). Add to that +2 from a diagnosing sprite, and you have my minimum 4.

Re new stuff: Riggers can have two kinds of enhancments not available at chargen - the VR booster and the rigger booster nanites. Sadly, Those aren't compatible, so it's either or. But yes, this is the one thing a Technomancer has to achive differently: by Submerging once or by using sprite services adn threading for those extra dice.

Re Cracked Agents: Why can't a Technomancer have Legions of Agents either (until Unwired)? Buy one, crack it, Replicate, load it with a bought Attack program and use them for grunt duty, running them on his hardware commlink he needs to not stand out too much anyway? My point being: A Technomancer has access to all the stuff a Rigger has, minus cyberware, AND on top of that sprites and threading.

Re Submerging: Yes, I did assume the Technomancer would use it's 50 Karma for submerging, which would propably gain him (by subsequently raising Resonance) more net dice (by being able to thread better) than increasing skills alone. With 50 Karma, that would be +2 Resonance (to 7, costing 13 + 15 + 18 = 46 Karma) for our sample Technomancer.

Mwr? It appears that the sprite power in question works on devices, of which a vehicle is one, unless the vehicle is really really old.


I suspect that what you mean to say is that Command is not even close to being a good alternative to combat. And there might be an implicit "in my opinion" in there, too.


Could you elaborate on this, please? I, for one, am not sure what you're getting at.

Sprites only get one autosoft for every 3 ratings.
So rating 3, gets you maneuver...
Rating 6 you can add a weapon soft to that...
Rating 9, you can now have a defense autosoft as well...
rating 12, you can get clearsight so that they can scout...
Rating 15, Electronic warfare to use jammers...
Rating 18, If you have a secondary weapon to use...

Technomancer is long since dead, since they take number of hits x 2 for fading. So you'll rarely see a technomancer with higher than a rating 6 sprite, so it can drive and shoot, but can't dodge.

I must confess I have lost sight of the purpose of this discussion. We're debating whether a specific technomancer, with a specific amount of karma, spent in specific ways, will be good enough that he can be termed... better than a non Awakened rigger? WHY??? How is this question relevant to anything? Given lots of karma, Awakened people will always be able to outclass cybered people at something. That's the nature of Awakened characters. It has always been like that. It is not grounds for complaint.

And in the end, this is nothing more than a question of definition. You can put out numbers all you want. But numbers are meaningless out of context. You can debate what the numbers mean, but in the end, the only concrete meaning they have is their mathematical definition. Their qualitative definition, whether they are good numbers or bad numbers, is pure, unmitigated, unarguable opinion. Hermit doesn't like the numbers that a technomancer can get. But he can't prove that they're bad. He can only prove how he feels about them. He can prove that in situation x, a technomancer always wins versus a particular non-technomancer, but the idea that such a thing is bad is hermit's own opinion. Other people see the same situation and think that it's good. The basis for thinking whether it's good or bad is not scientific, it's not rational. It is based on a feeling of like or dislike. THAT IS ALL.

Therefore, THIS DEBATE IS UNRESOLVABLE. Whether you like the numbers or not, it is based on personal preference, based on an opinion of how the numbers "should" look that is absolutely ineffable. Which makes this entire debate futile, and makes me really wish that it would end. Now.

Now, this debate was split off another where I argued that the Rigger, as a character specialising in VR and AR control of devices, is not a viable character concept anymore because he can never hope to win against a technomancer character, even one of significantly less Karma, thanks to the restrictive hardcaps on attributes and programs. Now, lots of people came down on me and told me that just wasn't so, that Riggers still make sense as characters and do have a chance against a Technomancer character. People demanded proof, this debate ensued.

I never said it's universally good or bad (though I made no attempt to pretend I liked that, because I don't).

Neither of those results are fixed or guaranteed values. They fluctute and can be better or worse. Furthermore they're contingent on using Command to rig rather than jumping in - which all things being equal has been shown automatically puts you at a disadvantage. Once a technomancer jumps in he has a number of advantages and a different set of disadvantages.


The difference being, in a realistic situation, that riggers can count on those fixed modifiers while technomancers will not only have to often waste time calling on those sprite tasks (unless you don't mind burning those registered sprite tasks), but the results he gets are variable.


The point is that all that stuff takes time, resources, and nuyen. Assuming the technomancer has infinite amounts of any of those, particularly when they're gimped in all of them out of the box makes no sense because the rigger could be doing the exact same thing.

Yes, your technomancer could steal the drones, but then so could the rigger. Yes, your technomancer could crack the programs and get a commlink to run them on, but so could the rigger and so on and so on. The issue isn't that the technomancer can't do it, it's that if he is able to it in your game, then so is the rigger effectively cancelling that mechancial advantage out - what I'm getting at is that if that is the case then the rigger actually has a head start.

The problem with this argument is that if you assign arbitrary conditions to a situation you can't have a balanced comparison with a credible baseline for the characters being compared.


You math is off. All you've done for 50 karma is 2 initiate grades and 1 Resonance (to 6 not 7). To raise it to 7 you now need to expend a further 21 karma (for a total of 67). Now apply 67 karma to the riggers posted in this thread and you will see several DPs rising.

And what I'm getting at is that the TM has all his boni on top of being able to have the same stuff a rigger has. Rigger has agents, TM has agents and sprites. Rigger has vehicles, technomancer has vehicles with diagnosing sprites. Rigger has programs (max. level 6), Technomancer has CFs (max. level Resonance*2) and programs for menial tasks. Apart from a bit more sgear on startup, I don't see the Rigger's head start (except being able to work as another character type too, asay streetsam, but that won't help him much when rigging). Also, since TMs are being paid the same as riggers, usually, they have the exact same amount of nuyen to spend on the exact same stuff after chargen, so I don't really see them gimped regarding money.


Yes, my apologies. But those skills and attributes wouldn't be as central as Resonance, nor as effective as resonance 7, whcih effectively would allow the mancer to gain rating 7 programs, something riggers just can never have.


So the basic decision between rigger and rigggermancer would be whether you want to be comparatively low-powered, but that dependably, or gamble a bit, but on average have better ratings, if you take some care to prepare yourself?