calling out hermit, Rigger vs Pilot Options

[Jaid]

seems like the trend lately is to start up challenge threads to prove a point, and this one is getting on my nerves.

so hermit, you keep on going on and on about how autopilots are better than riggers in SR4. well fine, bring it on. you tell me what you're doing with the pilot, show me some numbers, and i will tell you how an actual rigger will blow it out of the water.

[Nightwalker450]

The autopilots aren't necessarily better, but they are cheaper than creating a rigger. Its the same as the whole hacker in a box agent, you have the rigger in a box pilot.

But since arsenal ruled (can't remember page) that pilots are unique to devices, and only have limited capability to switch between different ones. They are not quite as flexible (granted even the rigger needs multiple skill groups). So not quite as bad as the hacker in a box.

[Synner]

The autopilots aren't necessarily better, but they are cheaper than creating a rigger. Its the same as the whole hacker in a box agent, you have the rigger in a box pilot.

I'd just like to note before proceeding the single most important rule regarding Agents/Pilots that I've seen overlooked: at chargen both are capped by Availability at Rating 4. Both are of course available for standard Availability and nuyen costs in play. Other limitations regarding both Agents and Pilots will be addressed in Unwired.

[hermit]

Agents can act as autopilots, can't they?

Anyway, AS I HAVE SAID IN THAT THREAD, the pilot might lack 2 Dice to the rigger (due to the Rigger's VCR Bonus), but that's about it, and that would be a maxed-out rigger - an average Rigger (Response 3, Skill 5) pilotng the drone would lose out big time. Out of the box, the drone would be notably better if not rigged. If you max out Drone and Rigger, they are MARGINALLY better.

Since you don't mention them, I take it as a agreeance on your part that the Driver Streetsam, Technomancer and Adept Rigger are superior to the mundane rigger.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

It seems to me that if you want a phenomenal dice pool, you go with the rigger. But in most situations, you only need a decent dice pool, and so there's a ton of drones flying around with just their pilot. Just depends what you need.

But do you really need to go calling people out? I know it's a trend, but that doesn't mean you have to continue it. It just seems a little confrontational to me. I'm sure Hermit's not the only one with an opinion on this, nor is he the only one who can come up with numbers showing how useful a pilot program could be. It's not really an area of the rules I'm personally as familiar with as a lot of people are, and I'd be interested in hearing anyone debate the pros and cons of pilot programs, not just one guy who has to be defensive because a thread was started specifically to put him in the hot seat.

[Nightwalker450]

I'd just like to note before proceeding the single most important rule regarding Agents/Pilots that I've seen overlooked: at chargen both are capped by Availability at Rating 4. Both are of course available for standard Availability and nuyen costs in play. Other limitations regarding both Agents and Pilots will be addressed in Unwired.

I'm looking forward to those limitiations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Agents can act as autopilots, can't they?

No it takes a pilot, not an agent

Anyway, AS I HAVE SAID IN THAT THREAD, the pilot might lack 2 Dice to the rigger (due to the Rigger's VCR Bonus), but that's about it, and that would be a maxed-out rigger - an average Rigger (Response 3, Skill 5) pilotng the drone would lose out big time. Out of the box, the drone would be notably better if not rigged. If you max out Drone and Rigger, they are MARGINALLY better.

+2 Dice for VR, and a -1 Theshold from the CR For basically 7 dice difference. But a pilot can drive "adequetly" for most people, but my riggers are usually street car racers so "adequetly" doesn't cut it for me. And seattle traffic is so terrible, you need a 6 just to get to the supermarket (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Since you don't mention them, I take it as a agreeance on your part that the Driver Streetsam, Technomancer and Adept Rigger are superior to the mundane rigger.

I think the idea is that, Adepts and Technomancers are fairly expensive, same with a street sam. So the Rigger will have more tricks as Synner stated, with Electronic Warfare, and moderate hacking skills to protect his drones from being attacked via matrix.

[Jaid]

Agents can act as autopilots, can't they?

Anyway, AS I HAVE SAID IN THAT THREAD, the pilot might lack 2 Dice to the rigger (due to the Rigger's VCR Bonus), but that's about it, and that would be a maxed-out rigger - an average Rigger (Response 3, Skill 5) pilotng the drone would lose out big time. Out of the box, the drone would be notably better if not rigged. If you max out Drone and Rigger, they are MARGINALLY better.

Since you don't mention them, I take it as a agreeance on your part that the Driver Streetsam, Technomancer and Adept Rigger are superior to the mundane rigger.

ok, first off, like i said, you evidently don't have a clue what you're talking about.

the rigger can make use of response 5 at chargen. the drone pilot cannot. there's 1 die. the rigger can use a control rig. the drone pilot cannot. that's 2 more dice. the rigger can use hotsim. the drone pilot cannot. that's 2 more dice. the rigger can use skills at 6, the drone pilot can use only up to 4. that's another 2 dice. the rigger can use specialisations, the drone pilot cannot. that's another 2 dice. the rigger can use control rig boosters to gain an additional 1-3 dice to their DP. the drone pilot cannot. the rigger can use a simsense booster to get a 4th IP. the drone pilot cannot. so right there i'm looking at 8+ dice that your drone pilot isn't going to get, at chargen or otherwise. that is not insignificant, even by Cain's ludicrous definition of a significant increase.

as far as rigger sams, good luck with that. the rigger will likely have multiple vehicle skills at 4 (with specialisations) plus gunnery plus a control rig plus either control rig boosters or simsense booster. the sammy? i don't think so. he'll have a decent dicepool for one, maybe 2 vehicles, but if he's taking a ton of vehicle skills to match the rigger, then at that point the sammy is also a rigger imo. because hey, guess what, the rigger can also pick up some combat 'ware and a gun skill or two, and now he's going to have similar dice pools to what the sammy has in combat also. he won't be a street samurai (unless your definition of street sam only includes "can shoot a gun reasonably well") but he'll have a sold dicepool, just like the street sam will have vs. the rigger.

now then, on to rigger adepts: sure, they'll likely beat a mundane rigger. guess what? the gunslinger adept is better with guns than the street sam. an infiltration adept is better at sneaking than the covert ops specialist. the adept face can laugh at the mundane face's comparatively tiny dicepool. this is not a rigger vs rigger adept issue, it's an adept vs mundane issue. the difference is that while the adept will throw a couple more dice, he's paying 2-3 times as much for it. possibly more.

the technomantic rigger? sure, stronger than the mundane rigger. but the difference is that the mundane rigger can actually be useful in other areas... the technomantic rigger? he's not gonna be useful outside of his specialty. that's why the technomantic rigger is in fact better, it's because it's on the very short list of things that the technomancer actually does reasonably well.

[Synner]

Agents can act as autopilots, can't they?

No.

Anyway, AS I HAVE SAID IN THAT THREAD, the pilot might lack 2 Dice to the rigger (due to the Rigger's VCR Bonus), but that's about it, and that would be a maxed-out rigger - an average Rigger (Response 3, Skill 5)

Your math is incomplete, as has been shown. I've seen some rigger builds in playtesting that can be a pretty scary. I've seen rigger's dicepools beating out the best drone Pilot out of chargen by 8 dice or more.

Though I'm left wondering why an "average rigger" who lives by his vehicles and drones would have a Response of 3. Even the Sample Characters in the corebook, which people keep telling me are sub-optimal, have better than that on their gear lists. Why would an average rigger have less? The whole point of a rigger is that your vehicles and drones are the tools you work and live by—and you're suggesting a decent rigger is not going to upgrade/mod the hell out of them?

[Nightwalker450]

the rigger can make use of response 5 at chargen. the drone pilot cannot. there's 1 die.

Actually the drone can have a response 5, you just have to upgrade it. It will only need a response of 4 though because its pilot can only goto 4 at chargen. (Response only affects drones in how high their pilot can go). But since most drones would probably be deemed at least "security" if not "military" (excluding emo-toy)

then it likely already has a Response 4.

Either way the other things you listed more than smash the drones dice pool in comparison to the rigger.

EDIT: Quick question for Synner, does a rigger need both his commlink and the drone to be at rating X response, or only the drone? Since the rigger uses the devices ratings? Right now I'm thinking he'd be limited by the lower of the two responses, since if his commlink can't keep up with the drone then its not going to do any good, and if the drone can't keep up with the commlink its also not going to work.

[hermit]

Your math is incomplete, as has been shown. I've seen some rigger builds in playtesting that can be a pretty scary. I've seen rigger's dicepools beating out the best drone Pilot out of chargen by 8 dice or more.

So then show me how, please.

Though I'm left wondering why an "average rigger" who lives by his vehicles and drones would have a Response of 3. Even the Sample Characters in the corebook, which people keep telling me are sub-optimal, have better than that on their gear lists. Why would an average rigger have less? The whole point of a rigger is that your vehicles and drones are the tools you work and live by—and you're suggesting a decent rigger is not going to upgrade/mod the hell out of them?

Sure, so let's say Response 5 and skill 5. Makes for a DP of 10, which is on par with a decent drone pilot. Okay, there's the +2 VR bonus and -1 Threshold, but that doesn't exactly count as fantastically superior. And again, what really rubs me the wrong way is the driver sam, not to mention the adept rigger and technomancer.

[Jaid]

Actually the drone can have a response 5, you just have to upgrade it. It will only need a response of 4 though because its pilot can only goto 4 at chargen. (Response only affects drones in how high their pilot can go). But since most drones would probably be deemed at least "security" if not "military" (excluding emo-toy)

repeat: the rigger can actually *use* response 5 at chargen. the drone cannot (not quite true, the drone would get an initiative score 1 higher to be honest, but close enough).

[Synner]

EDIT: Quick question for Synner, does a rigger need both his commlink and the drone to be at rating X response, or only the drone? Since the rigger uses the devices ratings? Right now I'm thinking he'd be limited by the lower of the two responses, since if his commlink can't keep up with the drone then its not going to do any good, and if the drone can't keep up with the commlink its also not going to work.

This is correct. It's also on my next list of FAQ updates (though I can't remember off the top of my head if this is in Unwired too). The rigger is limited to the lower of the two ratings.

Your math is incomplete, as has been shown. I've seen some rigger builds in playtesting that can be a pretty scary. I've seen rigger's dicepools beating out the best drone Pilot out of chargen by 8 dice or more.

So then show me how, please.

Jaid has already offered up (thanks in advance) a legal rigger build I've seen in playtesting:

the rigger can use a control rig. the drone pilot cannot. that's 2 more dice. the rigger can use hotsim. the drone pilot cannot. that's 2 more dice. the rigger can use skills at 6, the drone pilot can use only up to 4. that's another 2 dice. the rigger can use specialisations, the drone pilot cannot. that's another 2 dice. the rigger can use control rig boosters to gain an additional 1-3 dice to their DP. the drone pilot cannot. the rigger can use a simsense booster to get a 4th IP. the drone pilot cannot. so right there i'm looking at 8+ dice that your drone pilot isn't going to get, at chargen or otherwise. that is not insignificant, even by Cain's ludicrous definition of a significant increase.

That's at least an 8+ dicepool difference at chargen (without specializations) and 4 IPs. It's also significantly more than a specialized street samurai driver can get. Again YMMV.

[Jaid]

So basically the riger isn't really good at anything and outclassed in what he supposedly does well by a number of characters including your run-of-the-mill cybersam who invests in drivers school bit, but can as a starting character shine with a broader approach to stuff, until about 50 to 100 Karma, where the other mundanes start generalising too because thy don't have any more room left for getting more efficient in their respective special areas.

That's an awsome character concept! Sounds really fun to play. A stooge who can't do anything right but will work until everyone else is somewhat developed. Especially compared to the really crippled 3rd Edition riggers.

1) 50 to 100 karma is not trivial.

2) the drone rigger will remain better in his area of specialty. unless of course you define the rigger's area of specialty as driving 1 vehicle reasonably well, never mind using gunnery, EW skills, or even just driving more than 1 kind of vehicle. but heck, if you call that a rigger, then i'm calling my rigger with pistols 4 (semiautomatic +2) and agility 5(7) a street sam, and thereby rendering your entire street sam obsolete apparently. i mean, your streetsam is throwing what, like 3 more dice? good for him.

seriously. you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and it's really annoying to me to listen to you scream and whine about how arsenal is a failure of a book just because it apparently doesn't live up to your expectations of giving riggers a dicepool of 50 to play with. you don't seem to have any real ability to back up what you're saying, and i can't say i've particularly enjoyed your senseless negativity. heck, before i decided to start this thread, i was seriously considering muting you just so that i don't have to listen to you rant and rave about a problem that doesn't even exist. and once this thread is done with, i probably will mute you anyways, just so that i don't have to listen to your constant whining.

[Shadow]

Hey Synn, I think he is using "average" as stated by the book, which is an average rating/attribute/skill is 3.

I also think his point is that while of course a Rigger is better, a drone pilot can be "good enough" for a ton less money and expense than a full fledged rigger. More of a better from an economical stand point.

[hermit]

seriously. you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and it's really annoying to me to listen to you scream and whine about how arsenal is a failure of a book just because it apparently doesn't live up to your expectations of giving riggers a dicepool of 50 to play with.

Try getting some manners, then we maybe can discuss above kindergarten level. I never said that, I gave examples and reasons, wehreas you only brag about how you will disprove me and all you really get together are insults. Maybe reasoning would be a nice idea, but then again, that seems to be beyond your abilities (you're welcome to prove me wrong though).

1) 50 to 100 karma is not trivial.

I do play my characters for more than 3 or 4 runs. With an average of 5 to 7 Karma per run, and one run per two sessions, 50 Karma isn't a far-out goal.

That's at least an 8+ dicepool difference at chargen (without specializations) and 4 IPs. It's also significantly more than a specialized street samurai driver can get. Again YMMV.

Hot sim is suicide in a vehicle battle, as the damage the character takes will very soon negate any advantage it brings. Though I am unsure if vehicle and character damage mods stack with riggers in 4.
Specialisations are good for one-trick ponies and not versatile characters, whcih riggers are supposed to be.

the rigger can use control rig boosters to gain an additional 1-3 dice to their DP. the drone pilot cannot. the rigger can use a simsense booster to get a 4th IP. the drone pilot cannot.

An either/(or would be in order to not make people believe those are compatible, which Augmentation said they aren't (should that have been errata'd I'd be unaware of that).

That's at least an 8+ dicepool difference at chargen (without specializations) and 4 IPs.

No. That's 7 and 4IP (considering the rigger is maxed out for that vehicle and burns his versatility) or +8DP and 3IP.

Also, YMMV?

[Jaid]

Hey Synn, I think he is using "average" as stated by the book, which is an average rating/attribute/skill is 3.

I also think his point is that while of course a Rigger is better, a drone pilot can be "good enough" for a ton less money and expense than a full fledged rigger. More of a better from an economical stand point.

moneywise, a rigger is actually about the same.

a rating 4 pilot program costs 10k credits. the rigger costs 10k for a control rig, and 250 (not 250k, just 250) for a hot sim module. control rig boosters can raise the cost some more, as could a simsense booster, but both of those are fairly optional anyways. that would still leave the drone rigger at 4-6 more dice at no real increased expense. plus the rigger can just use pretty much any vehicle, whereas the drone pilot is limited to only it's specific type of vehicle.

[Jaid]

Try getting some manners, then we maybe can discuss above kindergarten level. I never said that, I gave examples and reasons, wehreas you only brag about how you will disprove me and all you really get together are insults. Maybe reasoning would be a nice idea, but then again, that seems to be beyond your abilities (you're welcome to prove me wrong though).

ok, so fine, *reason* yourself up some drone pilots that are better than the rigger i've pointed out is possible. *reason* yourself up an adept rigger that doesn't use all the same stuff as the rigger plus several points of magic. *reason* yourself up a technomancer rigger that is a well-balanced character who could reasonably be useful outside of the matrix in anything remotely resembling a variety of situations. *reason* yourself a street sam who can drive danged near anything the way a rigger should be able to with the kind of dicepool you're suggesting is so easy. yes, i am probably being more rude and confrontational than is strictly necessary. that doesn't make me wrong, it just makes me rude and confrontational.

I do play my characters for more than 3 or 4 runs. With an average of 5 to 7 Karma per run, and one run per two sessions, 50 Karma isn't a far-out goal.

so then 14-20 sessions is non-trivial to you? that's probably 4-5 months for most people here (probably more for some) and even then, the sammy still isn't going have branched out into the rigger's specialty most likely. if he's anything like a decent sammy, he'll probably be boosting all those core sammy skills that he could only bring up to 4 at chargen, picking up specialisations in everything he skipped earlier... unless, of course, you're designing a sammy/rigger, in which case you aren't comparing a non-rigger to a rigger, you're just comparing an X/rigger to a rigger/X (i find it hard to believe that you could spend the full 400 BP on being just a rigger, unless you start picking up all kinds of pilot exotic vehicle skills just to waste points)

[edit] you seem to have edited your post, or the forums didn't copy half of your post and didn't show me it earlier. either way:

Hot sim is suicide in a vehicle battle, as the damage the character takes will very soon negate any advantage it brings. Though I am unsure if vehicle and character damage mods stack with riggers in 4.
Specialisations are good for one-trick ponies and not versatile characters, whcih riggers are supposed to be.

the hotsim is going to bring your default defense dice pool up to 9, most likely. throw in a full defense if you wish, and you're no more likely to get hit than the sam. as far as the stun damage to the rigger, it can be ignored with proper gear if you wish, and this assumes the vehicle even takes that damage (which, considering you can mod the armor on a lot of things to be up to the levels where people complain you need special weaponry to even penetrate the armor at all and it's quite cheap to boot, isn't all that likely).

An either/(or would be in order to not make people believe those are compatible, which Augmentation said they aren't (should that have been errata'd I'd be unaware of that).

no errata, though probably a common house rule. don't want to say for sure on that though, it's not like i've done a poll or anything. nonetheless i did say *can*

No. That's 7 and 4IP (considering the rigger is maxed out for that vehicle and burns his versatility) or +8DP and 3IP.

sure, and neither of those are insignificant. the rigger still has plenty of versatility, but in his primary vehicle he will blow away the drone. in his secondary vehicles he will still have a few more dice, just not quite as many more.

Also, YMMV?

apparently so. what, pray tell, is a 'significant difference' to you? do we need to give riggers 10 IPs and +40 dice pool before they're good enough?

[hermit]

plus the rigger can just use pretty much any vehicle, whereas the drone pilot is limited to only it's specific type of vehicle.

He still needs vehicle skills at 6 for your equasion to work. And Hot Sim makes little sense in combat situations.

*reason* yourself up a technomancer rigger that is a well-balanced character who could reasonably be useful outside of the matrix in anything remotely resembling a variety of situations.

I don't care if he'd be antisocial and onelingual. Point is, he makes a rigger look like shit in what's supposed to be the Rigger's specialisation.

Besides, try reasoning up something substantial and not flawed examples yo have synner post. That'd make you seem a little less than an idiot who's just out bashing someone whom he doesn't like.

yes, i am probably being more rude and confrontational than is strictly necessary. that doesn't make me wrong, it just makes me rude and confrontational.

Yes, and this violates the terms and regulations of this forum, so maybe this thread oought to be closed. I don't really see the wisdom in poster bashing threads. Especially if it's indeed about bashing, as you do, and not anything resembling a reasoned discussion.

control rig boosters can raise the cost some more, as could a simsense booster, but both of those are fairly optional anyways.

Funny, since those form corner points in your "why riggers kick ass more than pilots" example ... besides, "some more" is around 100.000, which is quite something in SR4.

[Spike]

Wow, this thread turned bitter quick!

I just wanted to point out that a -1 threshold should be 3 dice, not two... though I suppose you could reduce its impact to reflect the inability to get extra successes.

And, frankly, I could have utterly misunderstood what he was talking about....

OH, and yeah: While a good rigger can stomp over a great drone's dice pool, the real differences, realistically, are in the inherent limitations of pure drones, not in straight up dice pool comparisons.

If you allow players to control their drones as extensions of their character (as a lot of people do) they come across as great replacements for a dedicated rigger. I see it all the time in games, from pets in D&D, to drones in Shadowrun.

"I'ma shoot this guy while my drone/dire wolf pet sneaks around the back and guts him."

"Great, roll for the shot and give me a sneak/stealth check for teh drone/pet"


Which just means anyone without a pet/drone is screwing themselves out of all those extra attacks. Its sloppy GMing.

[paws2sky]

And Hot Sim makes little sense in combat situations.

How do you figure?

[Drogos]

Just check the forum title (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Eyeless Blond]

Hey Synn, I think he is using "average" as stated by the book, which is an average rating/attribute/skill is 3.

I also think his point is that while of course a Rigger is better, a drone pilot can be "good enough" for a ton less money and expense than a full fledged rigger. More of a better from an economical stand point.

Well sure.

And skillwires can be "good enough" for when you don't want the expense of buying an actual skill.

And a bound spirit will do when you don't want to deal with hiring a whole mage.

And an Agent with a decent commlink is "good enough" when you don't want a whole hacker.

And a Steel Lynx is "good enough" when you don't want a whole streetsam.

And a cyberzombie is "good enough" when you don't want a whole nuclear bomb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jaid]

He still needs vehicle skills at 6 for your equasion to work. And Hot Sim makes little sense in combat situations.

evidently we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't care if he'd be antisocial and onelingual. Point is, he makes a rigger look like shit in what's supposed to be the Rigger's specialisation.

sure, but is the technomancer not allowed to have his own specialisation now? in this case, dedicated rigging is the TM's specialisation, many times moreso then the rigger. the rigger at least can do something else in addition to rigging.

Besides, try reasoning up something substantial and not flawed examples yo have synner post. That'd make you seem a little less than an idiot who's just out bashing someone whom he doesn't like.

what's flawed about them? like i said, show me that my examples are wrong. these aren't synner's examples, they're mine. the fact that two other people (one of whom is presumably very familiar with the rules, having been partly responsible for developing them) have come up with the same points to counter what you're saying doesn't suggest to you that you might be missing something?

Yes, and this violates the terms and regulations of this forum, so maybe this thread oought to be closed. I don't really see the wisdom in poster bashing threads. Especially if it's indeed about bashing, as you do, and not anything resembling a reasoned discussion.

that's nice. you gonna post something to disprove my points, or just keep complaining that i'm being rude while i disprove yours?

Funny, since those form corner points in your "why riggers kick ass more than pilots" example ... besides, "some more" is around 100.000, which is quite something in SR4.

ummm... either 15k credits or 65k credits. not sure how you're getting 100k here. granted, 65k is a lot (15k not so much) but there are other ways to get that 4th IP that drones can't get, which don't cost money (edge) or very little money (drugs should presumably work, or at least the rules don't prevent it. it makes sense that they would though, imo)

[edit] k, gonna be gone for easter dinner/visitors/etc for a while. so if i don't respond, it's not because i don't have an answer, it's because i'm gonna be elsewhere =P [/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Mar 21 2008, 05:50 PM

[Drogos]

Hermit...Are you Gallahad on another set of boards? Just a curiousity.

[Moon-Hawk]

Also, YMMV?

(assuming you were asking for the meaning of the acronym)
"Your mileage may vary"