You've shown me nothing that proves a rigger won't stand on his own two feet as a concept. Do the builds and compare. A "riggermancer" is probably the most common type of specialist technomancer out there (because its easier on the points than hacker builds) but his advantage over a rigger has many downsides (some would say too many, enough to make the character unviable as a shadowrunner) and by no means a given or as instant as the advantages granted a rigger (it is at least partially contingent on calling sprites and being able to making proper use of them when necessary).


What you're missing is the part that technomancers suck outside the Matrix (or you're unaware of just how much they suck). Not only aren't they capable of competing when going manual, but since using drones and vehicles demands Skills besides Matrix Skills few technomancers can afford high ratings in those and still be able to keep their edge in the Matrix.

The street sam vs. cybered adept gunslinger comparison is very appropriate because the cybered adept gunslinger will be faster and have more dice than the street sam specialist in pretty much any combat situation (because he's spent just the right number of points on the "right" magical powers to make him an uber-shooter..


Not when anyone with 100k can give a technomancer a run for his money and a corp can field 100 riggers for any technomancer out there.


If you're going to use Starwars metaphors the correct one is that a technomancer rigger is the Emperor (including the fact that he's a decrepit old guy who couldn't swing a lightsaber if he tried) and they reduce riggers to Luke Skywalker levels where everyone else iin the world are stormtrooper-level, except for the odd Hans Solo character (the driver street sam and the adept hacker/rigger) that might show him up once in a while.

Why not? Just because it's nit their kinda stuff doesn't mean it'll work with the drones like usual, and the TM can access via admin account as a normal user would?


Please tell me how a Rigger can get a rating 12 program. Yeah, and if that's a control program and the mancer uses it to shove all kinds of drones around, what will the riger do, short of activating hellish ECM? Well, except insta-losing because all these drones come with 8 more dice than he can ever have in anything.


What's stopping the TM's other drones (those he stole previously) from attacking the Rigger's drones,a cting on command of the TM's 12 command program (where he'd be issuing commands at over 20 DP)? While he hacks the rigger's commlink and rips him apart?


The same as a primary rigger - nothing much.


Now, that's a cute metaphor, though it bears noting how useless Luke was when going against the emperor. Or Vader, for that matter. Luke wasn't good for anything except whining, crying and killing stormtroopers (I am leaving the novels out here, because I heared wild things about slayer Luke in them). Yeah, that's porpably me overstressing that a bit. Silly old me.


Allright, you're welcome to prove me wrong, but that's surely not in terms of dice pools or Thresholds.

depending on what you expect your rigger to have, there are areas where the mundane rigger will probably show up the technomancer rigger, synner.

however, those areas are more incidental type things... the rigger will probably drive, shoot, and dodge way better than the rigger can, and with a good variety of vehicles to boot (unless the TM is also trying to be a hacker). but the rigger will be able to fix/mod his own vehicles, probably pick up a few exotic vehicle skills, etc... the TM likely won't.

but definitely, when it comes to combat, the technomancer rigger really does outclass the rigger vastly. no mundane rigger is going to compete with a threading technomancer with high command CF and a few registered sprites. now if we're talking about stamina, the rigger comes in ahead once again... kinda like the TM vs Hacker. sooner or later, that TM is going to run out of sprite services, and when that happens the rigger will become competitive. until then, though, the TM is seriously going to outclass the rigger badly.

there is, however, one exception to that... a rigger operating an anthroform drone and using the special anthroform drone rules could probably compete with a TM rigger. properly twinked, that is. with an effective agility of 15 or something like that, the mundane rigger could probably compete at that point.

that said, i would say that any attempt by a pure technomantic rigger to subvert a drone is probably going to fail, barring extreme amounts of karma coming into the picture. if they've put the BPs into being a good rigger, they probably didn't have the BP to become a good hacker.

At this point the discussion is becoming academic. I'll wait till hermit posts his technomancer builds and a rigger build is posted in response.

hmmm... normally i'd just edit this into my post, but this thread is moving quick and i don't want it to get lost when people skip over it:

hermit: the command program is *actively* used. the technomancer can no more use command to order a drone around while hacking than a rigger could do the same thing while rigging (actually, both could do it, but the drone would just do nothing while they were hacking and probably get blown up when they aren't paying attention). when you are using the command program, you are remotely controlling the vehicle. you are *not* giving it any orders. think of it like a remote control airplane, and the command program gives you a really awesome remote control. the higher the rating of the command CF, the more crazy stuff the remote can do.

but basically, the important thing to understand is that you don't issue the command "go kill that enemy drone" with the command program... you don't even need the command program for that, in fact. and the drone will have the same amount of dice to try and do whatever it is you tell it to do whether you have 0 command or 50. the only difference is when you take over control of the drone directly without actually jumping in.

so yeah, the TM's drones will not have have dicepools that are so ridiculously crazy. if the TM happens to have a lot of high-rating machine sprites the TM may have slightly better dicepools for his drones (not to mention really hard to spoof/take over) but on the other hand, unless you have a rating 12 or so sprite it won't have all the CFs you likely want it to have anyways (i assume that targeting, maneuver, defense, and clearsight is pretty much the minimum you want for any given drone, personally).

where the problem is mainly is just that the TM is going to have out-of-this-world dicepools when personally controlling a drone, and that's going to make the rigger cry.

Non-technomancers cannot use complex forms. (Sr4, 233) Additionally, the complex form is a mental algorithm to allow the Technomancer to modify the Matrix. CF /= Program. Just as a TM can't teach a non-TM anything about hacking, their CFs don't function on other people's equipment. Sprites would be used for that, which is a time intensive process.The TM doesn't have a rating 12 program out of the box either. That comes with threading as I mentioned.
Your own example called for the TM not having any drones, but rather stealing ones from the rigger. Also, a rating 12 command will be useless unless you have subscribed the drone to yourself. To fake the order, you will need to use Spoof.
The TM's command pool is separate from the drones' dice pools for their actions. They use their pilot + autosoft ratings. Also, just as the TM can spoof a command, so can the rigger. Note: The spoof test is resisted by the drone's stats, not the TMs.Actually, the rigger will still have his drones compared to the TM who didn't have any. The Rigger is not bothered by a dead zone, he brings the signal for his drones with him. He won't be able to contact anything else, but his own stuff is fine.

Hermit, I think you need to take a deep breath an relax a moment. Nothing in my above post was meant to be an attack, but rather drawing similarities and differences between the two archtypes. It is apparent that you do not wish to be proven wrong in this, and I can understand the bulldog nature. But each time someone presents a counter-argument, you cascade away and come back from a different angle.

Please post what you see as a prime technomancer example with 400 BPs and a few ideas on how you would use that character. Then we can post a 400 BP rigger and ideas on how to use it. I think once the numbers are all on the table, everyone involved will be better able to discuss the matter with a concrete understanding of the capabilities that each side has.

Let's, for starters, take the unmaxmised run-of-the-mill technomancer from the core bookwith a few switched skills ... now, this is my first attempt with the TM rules, so it's propably flawed in some way.

B2, Dex2, Rea4, Str2, Cha3, Int5, Log5, Wp3, Res5, Edg2

Skills:
Dodge 3
Ground vehicles (remote operation) 2+2
Airplanes (Remote operation) 2+2
Percepton 2
Computer 4
Software 4

Skill groups:
Cracking 3
Tasking 3

Qualities/Flaws:
Resistance against signal spikes 10
Technomancer 5
Combat Paralysis +20
weak immune system +5

Complex Forms: Analyse 2, Armour 5, Attack 5, Spoof 5, Decrypt 5, Command 5, Sneak 5

Gear and stuff:
Three regged sprites (machine), two with two services, one with three.
Doberman drone w. Ingram WK
Doberman drone w. Ingram WK
Optic-X w. sens 3
10 combat Dragonflies

All drones with response 5 and a level 6 firewall as well as analyse 5 running, on the TM's connections list.

Miss anything?
Edit 1: added computer skill.
Edit 2 and 3: changed CF to legal, added software skill and played with stats a bit.

the electronics skill group. or at the very least, computer, which is the skill used for matrix perception.

i can build something later, gotta go for food atm.

Double-post for clarity:


I know. Just how does that stop them from using ordinary programs as minions?


Okay, misunderstanding. I said he wouldn't need money for drones on chagen as he can hppily steal whatever drone he sees and likes later in game. Not nescessarily directly rigged drones, but abducting perimeter security drones and whatnot, for ownership and modification.


He can install the same firewalls any rigger can, and analsyse programs, and to add on that, he can install sprites. Which the rigger cannot.


Sorry, didn't mean to be harsh or rude or something.

I am unclear how you are running Analyze 5 on the drones, unless it is a standard program. If it is a standard program, the TM has no skills to actually use or program it.

[Edit: Sr4, p 233 clearly explains the difference between Hacker and TM skills]

You'll need Software in order to thread. Also, you can't have Spoof or Command at 6, you are limited to 5 because of your Resonance of 5. (in game, you can thread those up above 5 but your fading will be physical).

It just runs, the TM buys and installs it like any user would. I see no problem there.


Sure? It said double Response was the max safe rating fpor threading in my book, and other examples hinted at that too?

I'll post my Rigger player's build shortly, once I can dig it up.

SR4, pg 237: "For Threading, the Fading DV equals the hits used for rating points. If the rating of the threaded complex form exceeds the technomancer's Resonance, the damage is Physical rather than Stun."

Which makes Threading valuable, but difficult to do to high levels. Also, you resist fading with Willpower + Resonance, so you'll have 8 dice to resist. Threading from a 5 to 8 would get you on average 1 box of physical (not much, true, but it adds up... :/ )

the TM archetype from the book is terrible. TMs either need to be optimised, or not made at all.

think i have an old TM rigger archetype kicking around somewhere... i'll see if i can dig it up.

My bad. Though 1P is acceptable for +3 DP (and a sprite service to uphold the CF).

That'd be good, I guess. And a 400 BP rigger for comparison would be nice too. The drone dwarf from the core book makes little sense, if you ask me, as he doesn't even firewall or ice his drones.

Not to quibble but where is that Combat Paralysis coming from?

Could you please post BP costs for the relevant mods to each drone? Note - for the purpose of this experiment, I'm sure no one has problems with assuming your registered sprites were acquired after chargen.


Programs in SR4 have to be actively run by a user (be it a hacker, TM, agent or IC). They don't run on their own, they don't do anything on their own. Technomancer complex forms more so, since they're brought into existence by the technomancer's mind.


See Tiger's quote from the book.

Yes but in a different thread, with a First Aide Kit rating 6, a Sprite, the TM can just use "mundane medical practice/skills" to keep on being the Uber Threading Energizer Bunny.

WMS

The core book.


Yes. It'd run on the Drone Pilot. The Tm could still command the Pilot around, couldn't he?


Maybe I wasn't clear enough about it, but I thought I already said that I'd been wrong there.

I'm very interested to see how threading helps the rigger. I use it all the time with my hacker TM, but I'm generally focused on one action at a time (Exploit or Browse or Analyze...) so no penalties. Sprites can sustain a threaded form for Rating x Combat Turn x Services owed. So for a level 5 sprite (darn hard to register unless you specialize in registering, like I did) you get 5 combat turns per service... 15 seconds... Great for hacking (although I prefer to use them to boost my CF rating straight up) but how does that play out in a Drone/Rigging situation, where time frames might last longer?

Note: I've done no rigging or drone stuff with my TM; I'm watching this thread with great interest hoping to learn some tricks.

ok, here's a mockup TM rigger. it's quick and dirty, but i think it's got most of the bases covered. this character relies heavily on sprites for purposes other than just controlling drones, so will likely have to invest in a couple of fault sprites (we'll just assume that there will be an errata to make fault sprites have analyse... Synner, there is such an errata in the works, i hope? and if not, *why*?)

anyways, i didn't go into a gear breakdown, but it should probably include a rating 4 agent/IC and some good programs (at least all the standard use programs, and probably armor and attack... others not so critical)

for the sake of discussion, can we suppose a couple of rating 5 machine sprites registered with 4 services each, and 1 rating 4 fault sprite with 3 services? this TM specialises in compiling and registering, and it's free, so more would probably even not be unreasonable, but just for the sake of discussion =P

=================

Race: Human

Attributes (150 + 65 resonance = 215):
B 1
S 1
A 1
R 1
C 5
I 4
L 4
W 5

Ess: 6
Edg: 2
Res: 6

Qualities: (-20)
Technomancer: (5)
Codeslinger(Control Device)(10)
Allergy(Sunlight, moderate) (-10)
Sensitive System (-15)
SINner(criminal) (-10)

Skills (144):

Compiling 5 (machine +2)
Registering 5 (machine +2)
Electronic Warfare 1 (communications +2)
Hacking 1 (spoof +2)
Computer 1 (analyze +2)
Software 4 (threading +2)
Dodge 3 (ranged +2)
Pilot Groundcraft 4 (remote operation +2)
Pilot Aircraft 4 (remote operation +2)
Pilot Anthroform 4 (remote operation +2)
Gunnery 4 (ballistic +2)

Complex Forms (30 BP):
Analyze 6
ECCM 6
Command 6
Spoof 6
Stealth 6
Biofeedback Filter 5

Contacts(5 BP)
Fixer C3/L2

Resources (26 BP)
(this would take me forever: i'm not going into specifics. suffice to say, he has a non-trivial amount of gear invested into drones and such).

==================

(you will no doubt notice that this character is pretty much completely useless outside of being a TM rigger.... this could be slightly mitigated by cutting resonance to 5 and all CFs, freeing up a whopping 30 BP for meatworld attributes/skills. yippee. you could also cut back some more on his mental attributes, but those are also his matrix attributes, which are kinda important...)

The idea would be a fast, hard strike with superior skill. Thread up the command program as much as possible and use a sprite to further boost forther, have the drones, possibly two supported by machine sprites that analyse them or something, attack the same target at once and kill it. The focus would be the rigger's combat drone, or the rigger's van with the rigger inside, if possible to find.

@ Jaid

Why not make the sprites rating 6? With Resonance 6, you can safely summon and compile them.

Hermit--I don't think we made it clear earlier, you only use Command when remotely controlling something and even then only for specific tasks. (Driving through an obstacle course would be Command + Pilot: Ground Craft) If you are trying to subvert or take command of a drone, that's a different CF.

Can you layout for me in actual actions, what you want to do? Describe them as physical actions more than die rolls. This way we can see how the course of events is flowing in your mind and we can break down step by step, the various actions required for everything.

An example would be:
I'm controlling the Steel Lynx remotely. It climbs out of the van and runs toward the security guards. While it runs, I order the sprites to crash the the guards' commlinks so they can't call for help. Once the lynx has closed to 50m, I stop it and open fire, full burst spraying wide to keep the guard from dodging.

Two pages while I GM one session? Lets see if I can catch up.

Support matrix operation (command) can give you a +5 DP, drainless threading gives another +2. That very nice, if expensive.

The rigger cannot compensate for the rating 12 command program, so he has to jump-in to make a difference. That gives a +2 from the vehicle control rig,

After chargen, the rigger starts to make response 6 chips. The TM can do it, too, but does not gain one die from that. Net disadvantage -4. In compensation, he receives the ability to command his drone network simultaneously, and might spend 65k¥ to have 4 IP. The real equilizer is that the rigger spends way less BP on the matrix, and therefore has way higher rigging skills, even while spending 50 BP on ressources. Response 5 + skill 4 + specialisation + vehicle control rig is 13 dice, you are not better without skill.

On network defense: Use IC set up to "attack any user but me". Your drones are rating 6 nodes, should be sufficient for 2 IC programs in "user-controlled" mode. Yepp, the TM will always come in. No, it won´t be pretty.



Let me use this occasion to express how displeased I am with Command not being a function of the controlled node. I see and we use it as an aspect of the controlled nodes OS, which does kill Command as a CF except for silly purposes, and Support Operation (Command), too. I would be very pleased to hear that I´m wrong and that what we are doing is not a houserule.

I am assuming the TM uses drones he stole from other people against the runner - drones he, as of this scene, posesses himself, and can command as he sees fit.

Fine, so ...

Mancer, knowing Rigger's around, gets a ping from his optic-x. Rigger's van, protected by two steel lynxes, is sighted!
Mancer orders his swarm - two lynxes with ingram WKs and a Roto with the same weapon - to attack. Before attaching his two machine sprites to the lynxes, he threads his command cf, going beyond safe limits, and then orders a full assault, directing the roto directly as to hit rigger's van from above with support from his third sprite ...

and, for the sake of discussion, here's a rigger. he's a lot more rigger-specialised then i would normally do, and his gear is getting a bit expensive to keep him competitive in the meat somewhat as well (something the TM only dreams about). he's by no means a rigger/sammy, however... don't worry about that hermit. and i would really hesitate to call him a rigger/hacker as well, since his dicepools for hacking will be terrible.

perhaps most interesting is that he is going to have a very low resource pool for drones etc compared to the TM rigger above. still, if we figure ~8k more on himself, that's still ~80k worth of vehicles/drones, which is respectable.

=====================

Race: Ork (20)

Attributes (160 + 20 edge = 180)
S: 3
B: 5
A: 3(5)
R: 3
C: 2
I: 4
L: 4
W: 5

Ess: 3.85
Edg: 3

Qualities: -35
Addiction (moderate) -10
SINner (criminal) -10
Spirit Bane (plant) -10
Weak Immune System -5

Skills (148):
Pilot Groundcraft 5 (wheeled +2)
Gunnery 5 (Ballistic +2)
Pilot Aircraft 4 (vectored thrust +2)
Pilot Anthroform 4
Pilot Watercraft 2
hacking 1 (spoof +2)
computer 1 (analyse +2)
Dodge 3 (ranged +2)
Infiltration 1 (vehicle +2)

Pistols 3 (semiauto +2)
Con 1 (fast talk +2)
Etiquette 1
Perception 1 (visual +2)

Contacts: (5)
Fixer C3/L2

Resources: (47 BP)

Items of Note:
Commlink (R 5 Sys 6(5) F 6 S 5) 11,000
==> All Programs, Rating 6 (7 common, 15 hacking) 94,200
Control Rig Booster II 10,000


Cyberware
Control Rig (5,000) .5 ess
Skillwires III (6,000) .6 ess
Nanohive I (5,000) .75 ess
Skillwire Expert System (3,000) .1 ess

Bioware
Muscle Toner 2 (16,000) .4 ess

Money Remaining: 87,800 (about 18.5 BP worth)

==================================

as usual, this is just how i would probably do it there are some things that could be changed fairly easily, but i think this covers it pretty decently. main concerns include getting 'wires for the skillwires, lack of build/repair skills (but there's some non-rigging stuff that could be cut quite easily too, to be fair). if he was to be less 'prepare for the future' oriented, he could save quite a bit on programs as well

you will also notice i didn't give him a simsense booster... this was a conscious choice on my part. if needed, he can use edge, or depending on the GM, drugs =P

If the Technomancer gets to steal his drones/vehicles (and then modify them before the encounter ... Not to mention getting free Sprites as well)) then the Rigger should get to do the same and not have to waste BP on them.

So the step by step breakdown would be: (anyone can feel free to call me out here if I skip a step)

IP 1 (complex)
Thread Command (Software+ Resonance) with net hits adding to Rating
Resist Fading (Willpower + Resonance) DV (# of hits used from Threading) This is Physical damage if the new Rating exceeds Resonance.

IP 2 (Simple, Simple)
Order Sprites 1 & 2 to jump into Lynxes and attack Van
Order Sprite 3 to Assist Operation (Command)

IP 3 (Complex)
Close Distance (Command + Pilot: Aircraft)

IP 4 (Complex)
Fire WK (Command + Gunnery)

Note: Because you are controlling the Device with the Command program, firing the weapon is a Complex Action. By Jumping into the drone or allowing the Pilot to function, you can fire 2 Long Bursts (Simple/Simple) Also, any actions that you take not utilizing the Command CF will be at -2 DP.

Does anyone want to take a crack at the 4 IPs for the Rigger?

That's what I assumed, though mancer did buy himself his gear, so I guess rigger has to, too.

Fine, let's roll for mancer then ...

IP1
Software+ Resonance: DP6+4+2=12: 09 08 07 05 04 04 03 03 02 02 01 01 -> 4 hits
Willpower + Resonance: DP 5+6=11: 11 11 05 05 04 04 03 02 02 02 01 -> 4 hits - no damage

IP2
(no rolls)

IP3
Command + Pilot: Aircraft: DP 10+4+6=20: 13 10 09 08 05 05 04 04 03 03 03 03 02 02 02 01 01 01 01 01 -> 6 hits

IP4
Command + Gunnery: DP 10+4+4+2=20: 14 11 11 10 10 05 05 05 05 05 05 05 04 04 03 03 03 02 01 01 -> 12 hits -> 23P damage on rigger's van. Armour piercing, because mancer means it.

there's a difference between safe and not taking physical

the TM in question is only throwing 11 dice to resist fading, iirc... the average rating 6 sprite is gonna be tossing around 12 dice to resist registering, which means on average 4 hits or 8 DV. that's a lot of fading to resist, and if the sprite throws out, say, 2 more hits? (which is not particularly unlikely). could be resisting 12 DV. that ain't pretty, stun or otherwise. it's got a good chance of leading to stun overflow, and physical damage is not a happy thing for our bod 1 technomancer, as i'm sure you can imagine

for the purposes of chargen, it doesn't matter whether the gear was stolen or purchased. it's not how you got it, it's what you have.

of course, if we're looking at this as if they've each done, say, 4 runs since chargen and have a few extra drones now, that's fine too.

just a side note, i didn't use it but if you wanted to get the costs even lower for the mundane rigger you could also use second-hand 'ware. he has the essence to spare for it

I can't find my damned rigger player's sheet for commlink, drone, gear and vehicle stats, although he only spent around 97k on 'em. I do know he just stuck with Analyze & Biofeedback as his major rating 5 programs and depended on Edge, Attack 3, Armor 3, Agent 3 plus a Rating 1 Encephalon, Rating 5 Firewalls and a Hacker teammate to protect his toys.

His attributes and 'ware look like this though:



He's pretty mean now since he and the Hacker are a few runs in and started pooling money on owning more drones and he's got about 8 karma worth of Specializations purchased in Ballistics, Wheeled Vehicles, Visual Perception and Ranged Dodge. He'd also clearly hose the TM if they ever got in a meat confrontation. Were I making the character, I wouldn't have gotten the Move-By-Wire or Nano-System, since roughly 20k for misc. stuff, 40k for his modded shin-hyung and 40k for his steel lynx, flyspy and commlink was an extremely tight squeeze. The character makes a lot more sense when you consider he relies heavily on his Agent, Hacker friend and Edge to back up his painfully average 8 dice in Matrix combat. With 12 dice in matrix perception though he's quite capable of detecting and challenging the average hacker/drone, so that's good. It's just the expensive Agents and Specialists he struggles with. Unfortunately my players collaborate a li'l too well on resources for me to use them as good examples, since the samurai and face bought a steel lynx each at character creation as well since they're confident the Hacker, Rigger and their Agents can pool together to defend things when necessary.

heh, well the mundane rigger and TM rigger i posted above were each actually put together in about 5-10 minutes each, to be honest =P

so i'm certainly not going to say they're the ultimate version of what they do... in fact, looking back, i think i missed electronic warfare for the mundane (hmmm... shuffle around some skills maybe, or something, pistols 2 (semiauto +2) should be lots i'd say) but at least since they were both designed by the same person it's not a question of one or the other being way more optimised =P

and yeah, the mundane definitely could've just ignored a lot of the CFs entirely, but unlike the TM who can use sprites for a lot of stuff, he's gonna be using his agent(s), if any, to do all kinds of stuff.

Just checking if it was the baseline or a home brew, because the basic version affects all types of Combat (including Vehicular combat) and you might want to swap it out.


Yes. Though that would be assuming the typical limitations on the Pilot's Rating at chargen (4). Otherwise the TM would have to buy a higher rating Pilot in play (5 costing 12500 and 6 costing 15000).


I was posting while you posted your reply.

Okay. Happens.


Sure, but even a rating 4 pilot would help the mancer a bunch, I think ... as would decent analyse programs.


Oh ... definitly, it should go.

Since your system and response are 5's, your programs won't run higher than 5. Save some money now by not buying them at 6s (unless of course you want to save money later by having them at 6 when you upgrade your commlink).

Either way, the programs should be capped at 5's for the examples.

i mentioned that (not explicitly) in the comments before and/or after. this is just the rigger 'planning ahead' for when he gets his hands on a rating 6 agent/IC and a rating 6 response chip =P (of course, i could always try and do something lame like running those programs from a credstick (device rating 6), but i don't want to risk orbital bovine bombardment )

Pretty sure that Threading & fading don't take up an IP. So Techno should get an action this IP. From the FAQ:

Tiger Eyes--Fair enough. I considered Threading to be equivalent to loading a program (complex action) or the resonant analog to casting a spell (complex action). If the FAQ says no action is required, we'll slide it back and combine what I labeled IPs 1 & 2.

Allright, rigger's car suffered 23P damage with AV ammo. Will we assume this as a kill?

First questions that comes to my mind when i see those characters with ones in all physical attributes are:

1.How do you expect them to survive after the char-gen
and
2.How do you explain them surviving in the dystopin sixth world to beginning of the game.

Brain can keep you alive where stats can't...
Have you ever played a character with 1 Body?
I have, several, in fact, and only 1 of them died...
And a body of 6 wouldn't have saved that one...

I can´t find what number of drones is suddenly used by the example, I thought there only was a single Lynx. If there are multiple drones, assume I was already jumped into the primary one and issued attack orders instead of jumping in. Note the indirect fire rules from Arsenal, target aquisition is shared)

The rigger (already jumped into C&C drone):

IP 1 (Simple, Simple)
Jump-In
Aquire Target (Perception 4 + Sensor 6 + Attention Coprocessor 3); estimate +4DP

IP 2: (Complex)
Fire Weapon System (Aquisition Bonus 4 + Gunnery 4 + Spec 2 + Sensor 6 + Control Rig 2 + Smartlink 2 + Hot Sim 2) DP 22


Threading is +2, maybe +3 without drain, so the TM will do so. Support operation costs an important simple action. Controlling the drone costs a complex action, while the rigger gets to use his "body" for free.

Taking into account you're obviously doing a "firing range exercise" where no movement, no cover, no visibility modiifers, no recoil (all of which would have impacted the dicepools) and the target car is standing still and has no armor to speak of, then then yes that would likely be a kill. That's okay since you're "just" trying to compare dicepools. Pretty futile exercise though, modifiers come into play all the time and characters in live situations handle modifiers differently.

Okay, for applicable modifiers - le'ts assume the van would drive. Cover can be negated pretty much with vehicles on city streets when using a flying position, I guess (what will the vehicle find cover under, street car wires?). I'll assume mancer isn't an idiot and has recoil compensation on his vehicle's weapons to compensate for at least one long burst. I'd assume the same for rigger. Applicable Modifiers would be:

- 2 (attacker is moving)

Are there really no more modifiers for a moving target?

Anyway, Sensors 6? Like how? Maximum sensors according to arsenal is 4. Or do you use the sensor's signal for perception tests (which would be odd but balance out the maximum level 4 rule a bit).

I reiterate, without context, this is a firing range exercise - all good and dandy if you're just into comparing dicepools.

In a "live" scenario though, it could be argued that if the drone is high enough not to have to deal with cover modifiers at street level, the defender should have a chance of picking it up on his sensors and blowing it out of the sky first (or at least shooting at it out of a window), so maybe the only way the rotordrone could have gotten that close undetected in the first place would be by flying low over traffic which mean some cover modifiers would be in effect. As for other possible cover, without context we don't know if the driver on the vehicle could veer under an underpass, into a parking garage, or behind a passing truck, etc.

When I suggested a car chase scene, I meant a car chase scene. One where, for example, the technomancer is trying to intercept a rigger courier, whether it's on a freeway or a busy Downtown street. A scenario where the Technomancer's skills would actually be pitted against a rigger's skills in a typical combat scene, where both parties would be forced to use multiple dicepools, different skills, and having to divide their attention between multiple actions (ie. driving, sensors, and attacking/defending).

Otherwise, this example is about as useful as comparing the dominance in combat of a samurai and a dedicated sniper (assuming the sniper is waiting in ambush). The sniper gets to take aim, prepare his shot, pile on the modifiers, and then shoot at the samurai. That may be a good way of comparing sniper builds dicepools, but it won't prove a thing about their dominance in combat (since in the same situation the samurai would get the exact same results plus or minus a couple of dice).


Plus any visibility modifiers, which are again contingent on non-existent context.


All standard visibility, cover, and movement modifiers (for both the attacker and defender) apply plus the specific Signature modifiers on p.162. I don't believe there are signature modifiers applicable if this isn't a souped up rigging vehicle.

Uhm, Drone attacks are what I consider a typical rigger attack, but I may be biased. Also, the drone can fly high, spot rigger's car, go low over a building's roof and then sweep the street, minimising it's own exposure to enemy fire. of course, rigger can possibly fire back, as he should expect that maneuver.

Also, I guess rigger can dodge now, can he? Which would be dodge + response?


Would make sense if a moving target had the same DP mod, though my GM screen (english) doesn't mention that, it only mentions moving attackers.

Allright, fine, let's try a car chase, though that'spropably a lot more complicated.

Drone attacks are a typical rigger attack. However, what you are describing above is the equivalent of an ambush or a firing range situation and could be compared to my sniper example above. While great to compare dicepools between different builds of attackers the "ideal conditions" of the experiment are biased towards the attacker.


If it takes you even one IP to close range to attack then that's enough of a break for a defending rigger to detect (if he already hasn't) the incoming drone and either take evasive action (Evasive Driving), shoot back, or warn everyone else in the vehicle to shoot back. If the target/driver were Average Joe Face or the specialist Street Sam driver they'd just be plastered though so it is a valid example in its own way—it's just not much of a comparison because the rigger's going to achieve the exact same thing.


Those modifiers also include, for instance, the type of burst fire attack you're using which may or may not impact the defender's dice pool. Uncompensated recoil also factors in. There may or may not be visibility modifiers at play.


There are indeed more factors that play in and not just different dicepools and the need to spend IPs on other efforts - for instance the technomancer using sprites will have to spend actions ordering them to do certain things.

Sure, as Riggers have to order autopilots and agent programs around. Only that Sprites offer some very powerful options that really tip the balance against a Rigger. Sprites can, for instance, attack drones and make them have failures, something Agents cannot.


For the above mentioned example, I've assumed at least an effective RC of 5 on the White Knight, because RC on vehicle-mounted weapons is quite easy.


Of course he can, the drone was flying hige for some time. He can even expect that type of maneuver and use that IP to activate his gun turret, greeting the drone with a hail of bullets the TM will have to evade. After all, it's a pretty obvious attacl maneuver by an obviously armed drone.


Well, the driver character will propably have decent sensors in his vehicle (now, do you use Sensors' signal or the Arsenal Sensor level for tests?) and an autosoft that scans the environment for him running on the vehicle's autopilot, so he should get a warning or something, shouldn't he? Though admittedly, he will suck more than either rigger or mancer in that respect. Joe Average propably won't, but then again, Joe Average isn't a Shadowrunner.