You don't have to be there in person. Just use a relay. As anything is wireless-enabled in SR4, you can use anything, really, and something wireless-enabled will always be near enough to your cyberware to use it for relaying a hack in an urban setting. You could just hack the lamp or storey display in an elevator the character happens to be in, the self-adjusting armchair, or the TV remote, and you're close enough to hack his cyberware without having to access through his commlink.


No, that just means you have to run a little brute force to find the correct ID codes for spoofing them. The bad thing about wireless is that it doesn't transmit point to point. Also, a wireless device cannot tellt he vector an order is coming from, so once you have decrypted the master control codes of that cyberware, you cann give it orders like you would a drone, and it wouldn't know the difference between your and legitimate orders.


Why spend hundreds of thousands of Nuyen on fixing a problem you can easily avoid by not having your cyber wireless-enabled? Like I said, diagnostics can easily be handled via datajack. WiFi-enabled cyberware makes zero sense, save for dedicated broadcasting devices like implanted commlinks.

Actually with the addition of the Retras Unit, for vehicles. I don't think all devices can be used to bounce signals. So unless they are standing within 1 meter of a Signal repeater or other retrans unit you can't hack them this way.

I've decided it would be possible to bounce signals off of anything without a Retrans Unit, but you would first have to hack that device, and then run your programs through that device. The result is whatever program you're running is limited by the properties of that device. A Retrans Unit allows a signal to efficiently bounce, so the only thing that changes in passing is the signal rating. So lamps, and TV Remotes will likely only have a system of 1 and make hacking cyberware pretty difficult if not impossible.

Information on Slaving is not available until Unwired comes out. For now they would just count as hidden nodes (4+ threshold, or 15+ threshold if you didn't know the person had cyberware)

Didn't you read the eamples on p 209-210?

IMO, the average person would be about as likely to turn off their commlink as a cellphone IRL - have you been to a church, movie, or just in traffic in the last decade?

In areas with functioning security, even hidden mode is forbidden.

Not everyone is going to have a commlink with a rating 6 firewall - and a firewall of 3 or 4 (average to above-average) isn't particularly tough to crack, even on-the-fly, nor are standard commlinks equipped with IC, nor is the standard equipped with an agent running analyze to detect intrusions, so I'm not sure where you're going with that argument.

Why would wireless-enabled cyber be easier to hack? Wireless-enabled IS NOT THE SAME as wireless being always-on. Just turn the bloody wireless off, and *poof* no security issues.

Why, yes, it would be hard to hack a security-minded person's commlink...and it would probably be impossible to hack their cyber - as long as it isn't impossible to turn the wireless off. Since my position is that you CAN turn it off, I'm not sure why you're arguing with me.

The retrans unit is for non-urban settings, like open ocean or deserts or wilderness, where other than the retrans unit, nothing is available to bounce signals on.


Yes, the rules say so too. Of course, I don't expect much of an ice layer in a ceiling lamp, so we're talking about seconds here.

Besides, while it may be impossible for the cyber to send signals more than a few meters, the cyber, as an active wireless device using SR standard wireless protiocols WILL accept any signal sporting the correct Idendification code, no matter where that signal is from. so yes, you could, once you have detected the cyber's signal from up close, hack the cyberware from anywhere, provided the cyberware is in YOUR broadcasting zone. Provided some unlucky person who stood a few seconds (it'd take some 10 turns for a good hacker to crack a standard encryption suite) close to a hacked bulb or vent or toaster oven have their cyberware's MAC code cracked, they can ten be hacked from anywhere provided they don't stray out of the attacker's primary commlink's coverage.


Because their cell phones don't project stuff into their brains via DNI. Their cellphones just annoy the hell out of other people, and many don't give much about that. If their hacked commlinks annoy or damage themselves, they will.

Which is where the whole matter of commlinks just doesn't make sense. It's such an invtitation to fuck with someone's brain, and in a world where matrix terrorism is a very real problem (and where scary technomancers make everyone panic), I have a hard time imagining people to just not care about their commlinks, whcih, again, are a direct gateway to their brains. It's a kind of mindlessness I cannot se happening. People don't walk around having pistols without safety put in the crotch of their pants either and pretend nothing bad will ever happen.


Sure, but then it would not make an awful lot of sense to have anyway, as any patinet who had to 'manually' turn on the wifi cyber components would have to be conscious and could as well just have the cyber be accessable by the diagnostics unit via commlink. And an emergency activation measure for unconscious patiens can just as easily be spooef as a perpetually-sending cyberware peice can. actually, it'd be easier, as that would have to be a standard signal you'd only need to pry from the cyberware producer or medical service providers and then could use on anybody, anywhere.

But if that were the case, then I wouldn't need the unit at all, because I could already bounce a signal off of the vehicle's wireless.. If you rule a signal can bounce off of anything wireless with no penalty than there is no need for a retrans unit. You just need wireless drones/vehicles.



You overlooked, the running your programs through the device. Its a rating 1 system lamp, so your hacking on the cyberware would be run at rating 1. These are handy for making it harder to track your connection due to rerouting through multiple devices, but its best done through higher rating devices.

Nor do commlinks usually - that's the point of image links in glasses or contacts, earbuds, and AR gloves.


sure they don't:

• A man, 20, showing off to friends after miscounting bullets, fatally shot himself in the head (Dallas, January). [Dallas Morning News, 1-26-08]
• A man who said he didn't feel safe walking his dog unless he had his gun with him, wounded himself on a walk (Palm Bay, Fla., February). [WKMG-TV (Orlando), 2-6-08]
• A convenience-store robber, 25, shot himself in the genitals when stuffing the gun into his waistband (Kokomo, Ind., January). [WRTV (Indianapolis), 1-15-08]
• A man, 26, checking on a disturbance near his apartment, shot himself in the buttocks (Scottsdale, Ariz., December). [KVOA-TV (Tucson)-AP, 12-13-07]
• An insurance company employee, 47, who brings a gun every day to hang in his cubicle, shot himself in both legs while handling it (Lake Worth, Texas, October). [Star-Telegram (Fort Worth)], 10-30-07]
• A man, 26, shot himself in the head while loading his gun at a firing range (Riverside, Calif., November). [Press-Enterprise (Riverside)], 11-24-07]

Rip that computer out of your car, yet? It's just as risky. I have NOT said the wireless should be capable of being remotely activated. Being paranoid about NON-remote activation of the wireless is pointless, as you'd already be in your enemies' clutches.

OK everybody, let's just assume the sheeple in the Shadowrun world run their cyberware with the wireless turned on.

Runners have the wireless turned off.

Paranoid people have each piece of cyberware running a rating 6 firewall.

Finally, the really paranoid people (Fox Mulder type) rip out the wireless completely.

Why? It's not wireless enabled. Cyberware according to people here (not nescessarily you), is, however. Also, for instance the oh-so-great wifi smartlink ONLY communicates with the gun wirelessly, and thus perpetually is active.


As I said, non-remote wireless only makes sense of you have no skinlink or datajack - both very common cybermods. Hence, it shouldn't be too common.


Still very possible to annoy you quite a lot - more than calls in cinemas, anyway.


Point. Though that will only slightly prolong the matter. And if in a hurry you can always use a higher-rating device. Not that these are rare, either.


I guess the retrans drones have a signal booster of some kind. They used to have in SR3, anyway. Otherwise, it just makes no sense. Which would fit in well with the general feeling of SR4's take on vehicles.


Okay, and where do paramilitary and police forces fit in? Or anyone who actually uses combat-oriented cyberware?

Alright, it sounds like we're arguing past each other again.

An average person has crappy security - a low rating firewall, possibly broadcasting cyber, whatever.

Properly paranoid shadowrunners/security forces would have a decent firewall, preferably with an agent or IC loaded for backup, skinlinks for anything that wasn't directly wired, wireless turned OFF by choice.

I think that the wireless capability should be there, since it can be incredibly useful. The ER doc isn't going to want your oxygen tank running while he's cauterizing wounds, for instance - and you probably wouldn't be conscious to turn it off - so there needs to be some way for him to do so while overriding unconcious DNI signals. The risk that someone who has you strapped to a table can turn your broadcasting on, so that he could do the same is so minor as to be ignorable...after all, they can already screw you any way they want to.

And how would that work? either the cyberware has some sort of manual switch that can be used by the ER doc - and then, why not just let it have a dedicated maintainance datajack? Essence-wise, that shouldn't make any difference ...

Or it's something that can detect specific wireless signals (the wifi-enabled cyber can always passively monitor for such a signal) and then open up wifi diagnostics - which offers amazing possibilities of abuse.


Aside from being somewhat informative during an ER treatment or for routine diagnostics, I still don't see how.

From what little I understand of the Matrix rules, I was under the impression that in order to hack something, both the hacker and the hackee have to be within the range of the weakest Signal rating. I didn't think it was possible to hack outside of the target's Signal range (even if you are inside the range of the device used to do the hacking). Am I wrong?

Well, yes - I'd lean toward an actual, mechanical switch or trigger to enter diagnostic mode, which would enable wireless.

Why? Because it effectively doesn't tether the patient futher. While recovering, he could get up and use the restroom without worrying about unhooking himself or tangling the lines with his IV. Physical rehabilitation would be easier as well.

Is it useful elsewhere? Outside of a quite limited selection of circumstances, no, which is why it would generally not be broadcasting (except for idiots.)

But the way the SR4 setting was set up, noone even thinks 'wires' anymore, they just assume it'll talk to anything when they need it to.

You're correct, so as soon as hermit's victim stepped more than 1 meter away from said lamp or toaster, the signal would be cut. And he'd have to hack another lamp. This works best on a victim who's unconcious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I don't know. It should be possible, following the laws of physics and common sense, at least.


Unless a datajack is present, yes, that's propably the method of coice. Of course, finding the switch might be a bit of a hassle in the turbulence in an ER ...


Well. Walking around when severely wounded and recovering isn't that much of a good idea. How would physical rehab be easier with wireless cyber, though?


Time for that Ripley quote again, I suppose ...


You'd only need the lamp for the comm codes that identify the commlink as the authorised master device to the cyberware. And if you use a lamp in, say, an elevator, your target will find it pretty hard to get ~1m away from the hacked lamp. As I wrote.

Possible, maybe, but I wouldn't want to use a streaming data transmission for something as picky as transferring code or script.

Where accuracy of data is important, so is the response from the target. Otherwise the sender has no way of knowing whether the packet of data arrived successfully or needs to be resent.
There is one Real Life™ situation where accuracy is important, but there is no feasible way to use a confirmation system that comes to mind right now. Data gathering satellite transmissions do not have the luxury of confirmation, and have large amounts of data that the ground would like as accurately as possible. The solution in that case is multiple redundancy with very extensive ECC data.

Back from the sidetrack, in low latency situations, like most terrestrial networking, that kind of added overhead is seen as less efficient than simple ECC checks and resending bad or missing data packets. Where real time is more important than accuracy, the confirm and resend system is minimized or ignored. Interactive hacking cannot be done without feedback from the target, and even a carefully scripted virus needs to arrive fully intact to do what it was coded to.

I see several problems with this. Let's starting with the TV remote. What TV remote? There are no TV remotes by SR4 because you can simply control your Trid set with your commlink. You already are carrying your commlink around everywhere you go, so it only makes sense that your commlink acts as the 'universal remote' for all your home appliances.

Why would the lamp have a wireless link? Or, are you talking some sort of wireless lamp that runs on batteries? Because it's a bit redundant for the lamp to be both wired and wireless at the same time. You'd have a wireless link for connectivity and a wire for electricity. Why not just continue the long standing tradition of having the plug-in be both for power and matrix connectivity? I know that wireless is the new thing and all, but the point in wireless is to keep the wires from getting in the way. If the object is stationary, and doesn't need to move, why wouldn't it be wired into a matrix/power connection?

Even if you did find something with a wireless connection, I would rule that you couldn't use it to spoof your way into someone else's cyber. Most wireless devices simply weren't designed for what you are proposing. You would be seriously crippled by the stats of whatever device you attempted to use to hack with.



I can't help but think of a little helpful 'advice' that I gave to someone a long time ago. If you're going to use physical mask to try to get into a girl's pants by pretending to be her boyfriend... make sure the boyfriend isn't in the room.

If you're going to spoof the commlink, don't you think that the commlink might notice? Here you are having a chat with one of the commlink's 'girlfriends', and she starts talking to your commlink, don't you think that the real 'boyfriend' should be out of the room, so to speak?

Once the cyberware starts listening to someone spoofing your commlink, it should try to confirm what it's doing. It would go something like this:

Spoofer: Sends out spoofed command as your commlink.
Cyberware: Attempts to 'talk back' to your 'commlink', not knowing that it's being spoofed.
Spoofer: Attempts to continue spoofing commands for the cyber.
Your Commlink: Having discovered the cyberware attempting to have a strange conversation about commands not given by your commlink, decides to order the cyberware to switch to a new communications code.

The end result is that every time the spoofer attempts to spoof the commlink, the commlink tells the cyberware to ignore the spoofer, and starts the spoofer back at square one. So, in order to spoof a commlink, you'd have to deal with the commlink before you spoofed the signal.

Here's something that can also be done. Set up your cyberware to have different 'modes'. 'Green' mode would be for safe areas where hacking isn't possible. (Like rooms painted with anti-wireless paint.) This lets your Doc access your cyberware for analysis. 'Yellow' mode would be for walking about around town. Which leads to warnings like: "CONDITION: YELLOW. That function is not accessible while the cyberware is in condition YELLOW." Finally, there would be 'Red' mode, which is combat mode. This means that the security would become even tighter when in combat. The commlink would even ask that all devices in the PAN respond to a different encryption code. (Warning: Switch to code RED, all devices switch to encryption 34A96SWTFZ389.)

I just see it as being very easy to protect cyberware from being hacked. Hopefully, once they release unwired they include more information about how to keep your wireless devices safe. Especially since a lot of people seem to think that it is easy when it shouldn't be.

I don't think people are saying it's "easy" to hack cyberware, just that it's "possible". Which is what it says in the book.

First command: change the cyber's MAC codes. That way, the boyfriend can yell all he wants, so to speak, the girl just won't listen. Nicely bypasses all these problems.


It would? Why? Matrix (optical signals) and energy (electrical current transmitted through something conductive) would be two kinds of wires, and wireless controls would replace the 'trix controls (to, say, have the lamp dim and shine at a commlink's wave).


Because RAW says so. Hey, I didn't make that wifi world up, so go blame the authors.


We've already said it would be a device rating of 1 we'd deal with. That'd only prolong the matter by a few dozen seconds, though.

Subscription and slaving is going to be addressed in Unwired, so I think we'll have a satisfactory answer soon enough.

errr... I have a totally different vision in my head for how wireless works for cyberware.

- I have always assumed that DNI was a direct interface from your brain to cyberware; I assumed the brain did NOT act as a router.

So looking through the camera of a Smarlinked weapon and having the image show up in your cybereye isn't using DNI; it's not sending the image to your brain which then sends it to the cybereye; the smartlink is talking right to your cybereye. That has nothing to do with DNI.

even if you have a sim module and have the AR piped right into your brain, the video signal doesn't go from
Smartgun > brain > commlink > sim mod > brain; it goes from
smartgun > commlink, which then sends sensory info to your sim mod and on to your brain

same with cybereyes or natural eye mods with an imagelink; the eye's sight is connected to your brain with DNI; the imagelink isn't getting images from your brain via DNI, it's getting messages from other equipment (usually your commlink, but if you're paranoid you might have your smartlink transmitting direct to your imagelink) and then you're 'seeing' it.

i could go on and on.

as far as security goes, you slave your 'ware to your commlink, and run in 'hidden' mode, and the chances of being hacked are nil. that's why hidden mode exists. if you don't need the wireless link, turn it off.

BUT I am rather confused as to why everyone (including the rulebooks) assumes that just because this wireless mesh network came into being that suddenly everyone's cyberware is actually wireless enabled.


Only cyberware manufactured -after- everything went wireless would actually have that functionality. Characters weren't born in 2070; they are currently living in 2070. A street sam who's been running the shadows for several years is likely to have some old 'ware in him.

Think of all the people in the real world who still use dialup internet because they don't think broadband is necessary, or it's too expensive. Those are the people who, while maybe having to replace their datajack with a wireless matrix version, wouldn't have bothered to shell out the nuyen for a wireless enabled pacemaker.

At chargen, I require my players to record -when- they had a certain peice of 'ware installed; that determines whether it's wireless enabled or not. Also I ask them whether they had any implants from the old wired VR matrix, and when/where/how their character may have gone about getting the 'ware replaced with a new commlink.

Except that changing a MAC code requires superuser privileges, and no one should be running around as the superuser or using the superuser code in public. So, now you're both spoofing a commlink and you've attempting to gain superuser privledges. That's going to take more time than you think.



Actually, that's your interpretation. From the way I read things, the wired backbone is what's gone. The RAW also doesn't state that wires are gone, in fact it says that there are still wired networks. Plus, you were talking about lamps, elevators, and arm chairs. I don't know about you, but I have a hard time believing that everyone just threw away all of their lamps, elevators, and arm chairs to go buy wireless when it would be so much easier to leave them plugged in and run them to a new wireless device.

I think you just have a much different view on the wireless matrix than I do.



Except that you would be limited by what that rating 1 device could do. I for one wouldn't allow it in my games, and I would expect that those who do would give you a steep penalty for attempting such a complex task with such a primitive device. So, instead of a few 'dozen seconds' I would expect a few hours.

Extra secure facilities, yes. Few and far between, thogh, because they're so damn uncool.


Guess what, I do too, but that's what it says in the BBB. You don't like that, go blame the authors, please.


Since it doesn't increase the basic time, that's not how the rules work. Whetehr or not you'd house rule that isn't relevant for this discussion (though I DO see your reasons for that and would do the same).


... in the relevant node, yes, wghich in case of the cyber would be the cyber, not the commlink. Since the cyber needs a mac code to identify itself, if you make it send a wrong one, it's gone from the commlink's network.

Sorry I just reread my post and I should have said Paranoid people have wireless turned off AND running a rating 6 firewall.

As to the answer to you question: I would put them in the Paranoid category. They want their medic buddies to be able to work on them if they got shot up.

This assumes that the cyberware/bioware did not get damaged in the wounding process, and the wireless abilities are impaired at best or not working at worst.

To me any Emergency personnel would have measures/devices in place to figure out what added extras a patient has, prior to treatment.

Look here in the forums, you have persons skin linking a emotitoy to prevent it being hacked, is that paranoid? no merely a player planing for Murphy and his cousins.

Again this a "Gee Wizz Idea" from the developers/FreeLancers that have little understanding of current technology etc.

WMS

Personally I find the very notion of having to debate this silly.
To explain:
What is being debated is regarding Shadowrunners ger being hacked. Whether it be cyber, commlink or other gear.

1. The gear in the book is not written or presented as an IN-Game catalog. (as per some of the olders SR2 books were written).
2. The gear is written for the players to purchase for their characters.
3. No shadowrun characters that I know of (aside from non-mainline style games) are going to be legit. They are shadowrunners and therefor not legit.
4. Why would the game/ gear be written with enormous loopholes:
4a. Only persons that have done alot of playing or reading will think about skinlink so they cannot be hacked from a lamppost.
4b. Why would gear be written so a beginning player who doesnt know anything can get fucked because he didnt by skinlink or firewall 6 for his fucking heated socks?

Answer is that it wouldnt/ or shouldnt. If hacking was supposed to be so damned easy from any pissant sized device (that coincidentally number in the millions in your abode alone) then the gear that is written for illegal folks. Ala the characters to be played would have that built in already.

*And* a note or paragraph somewhere would state that *NON* shadowrunners *NON* Security do have active wireless networks with stock firewalls of 3-4 and so can be easily hacked.


Note:
By "so easy" I mean, If I(personally) were to crank out an SR4 character with some cyber, knowing what I know. Which is basic information. And say, Hermit were to put out a starting Hacker, I would be a puppet. No matter where I went or how I hid.

The gear/ cyber I get for my character from character creation should not be automatically a wide upen fuckjob, just because I didn't know to do X,Y and Z. That doesn't make for an enjoyable game.

All gear should have inherent basic defense and a simple device does not, as per RAW (wireless device hackability) and as per descriptions by some posters.