So I posted this in another thread, but realized that was way off topic, so decided to start it's own thread for it. Now if someone else did a topic on this in recent memory (I checked the first 5 pages for topics that matched, but may have overlooked something), please just let me know and link me there to see if it's covering what I'm curious on.

So the big change from SR3 to SR4 was cable to wireless. And not just for matrix activities, but for literally everything on the planet it seems. One thing that got affected as well was the cyberware. Now suddenly it's all wireless as well. Smart links, matrix access, cybereyes, cyberlimbs, skillwires... Friggin' everything suddenly gets run off of wireless. And despite the short range of the signal (3m I think it is, unless I'm mis-remembering), that's just insane in my mind. Here you have a set of wires extending throughout your entire body that with the right input, control what you do and how you do it, and the interface is wireless?? Meaning some moron 15ft away (that's across the restaurant, mind you) can hack in and reprogram you as Little Bunny Foo Foo and watch you hop through the restaurant, while laughing his hoop off. How is this not crazy? When did someone decide that it was a good idea to run the metal and fibers in your body off of a highly vulnerable wireless signal that just anyone can get in to. (Granted it's not *quite* that easy, but I'm exaggerating to make the point more visible)

In the end, why would you choose to go wireless over DNI on a piece of 'ware, given how vital those items tend to be to your person?

Inquiring minds want to know.

I would always have ANY 'Ware in me have it's wireless turned off. I don't care it Wireless would make my life 10 easier, I DON'T need some snot nosed hacker turning off my 'Wire at the wrong moment. Sorry, but no thanks. Even my Commlink would be set to hidden mode and a cheap throwaway model would be my "Gateway" into the Matrix (not really, but with my Cybercommlink and Spoof, I can make everybody think it is). Cybereyes and Cyberears would be set to use DNI as well.

Heh, for any character of mine, if the cyberdoc actually *installed* the wireless components for my ware, I'd shoot him in the head, and make the next doc remove that part. "What part of 'No wireless' did you not understand?" *Bang*

I think there's definitely a common sense approach that needs to be taken here.

First off, I can't see how anything that is physically attached to the body isn't DNI automatically. Cybereyes are a good example. None of the basic functions should require wireless; they're attached directly to your brain. Even switching modes can be done through that link, because that's been established in previous editions.

Now an occular drone on the other hand is clearly going to use a wireless connection to send it's data back, once removed from the body.
Your smartgun uses wireless unless you skinlink it, or plug it in directly with a cable (and then cable into your commlink with a datajack to get the data to the eyes). That's why there are listed prices for Skinlink and Datajacks, they let you connect to stuff that's external to your body safely. So wireless in this instance is being used because it's easier, and marginally cheaper. Yes, just about every runner is probably going to get skinlink or a datajack, but that's because they are professional, and paranoid. Remember that the rules model the world, not the players. Just because a choice seems obvious, doesn't mean everyone is doing it, because some people are lazy.

Also let's consider something else about our wireless smartgun. I can fire it from across the room. Stop and consider how fricken cool that is. I can leave my smartlinked Ingram duct taped to the rail of a staircase, and watch through the camera of the smartgun system, whilst I cover the other direction. If I see anyone coming up the stairs, I can wirelessly tell the gun to start firing - Instant suppressing fire on that staircase whilst I'm facing the other way. How awesome is that? Sure, have a skinlink for when your are holding your gun, for added security, but who could go entirely wireless with options like that at their disposal?

Damnit. I have to admit that is very frickin' awesome. Darn you for coming up with reasonable, practical uses for wireless in a combat situation.

I would prefer to use a Grenade detonated via wireless, sensors are very cheap compared to a smartgun linked weapon, installed on the grenade, then when you see the foes enter the stairwell, BOOM.

WMS

As far as I can tell, much of the new Matrix has been influenced by real life. Common items are going wireless. The smartgun example, is just a logical progression of technology used in combat.

However, also being inspired by my real life job in data security, I don't see anything of serious value connected to a wireless access point. Not now, and not in the future. Data raids would likely still hit a wired network, one that is physically secure. Physical security is the root of all security.

Combat with wireless presents the same age old questions about security. Can you secure that wireless signal? Was the gun on the staircase physically secure? Is its firmware immune to a takeover attack? The resources needed to achieve those securities outweigh the benefit . So, conservative combatants would not use wireless as used in the example.

However, no risk no gain. Shadowrunners have to push the envelope. They are disadvantaged and have to take the long odds.

This reminds me of the story where they claymore mine is place facing one way, and the unit just trusts its still facing that way...

I want want a gun that I can fire without being there I put it on a drone.

As for my take on wireless:

Every piece of ware needs to be described how it is wired/used. I make sure to pay the extra .2 essence when I get a smartlink for the old palm induction pads. Sure, everyone can tell I have a smartlink when I give them a handshake, but it's something I trust. I think it is foolish that they would have completely thrown out non-wireless ware, and you might even be able to get it cheaper that way. Really though, I take every piece on a case to case basis.

One thing that I know for sure is that I do not have wireless enabled cyberlimbs. It is always DNI! I really don't believe it could be done any other way either. There is some ware too that has Signal 0, so that the signal is so weak you have to almost touch the person to communicate with the ware. Nanohive is one of these, and the way they describe it, you have to have wireless to communicate with the individual nanites. I'm not too worried about that, since if the nanites are spoofed, the hive will just revert it.

If I ever have some time I'll go over what ware is most dangerous and which traffic should be watched. Also which ware can be wireless or wired and perhaps some price discount. Not RAW of course, but someone should do it. Also, the weakest link as I see currently is Cybereyes, since for myself at least, Image Link is always on. (Pump up that Firewall)

Which is why it shouldn't be wireless.

Couldn't you get a skinlink for your smartgun and therefore avoid paying the extra 0.2 essence while also avoiding the wireless issue?

...that tears it, Vi's going shopping for grenades and learning Demo 1.

I generally consider that all active cyberware (i.e. not bone lacing) has both DNI and Wireless.

DNI because its just down right stupid not to. Plus, as cool as the idea of wireless technology is, DNI would be far more specialized and advanced, and I don't think it would be abandoned wholesale for wireless, even in 2070.

Wireless for a very practical reason: maintenance. Need to run a diagnostic on your cyberarm? Maybe upload a new patch that will make your fine motor movements even more delicate? Used to be you needed an incision or a skin port to hook up the wire, but not anymore. Wireless link, baby.

Now having said that, I would rule that you can turn your wireless on and off with a free action through your DNI and that anybody with a brain in their head will have their wireless turned off unless they are actively using it for maintenance.

Its also important to remember that a lot of cyberware is designed for and mass marketed to wage slaves and average shmucks that are generally at low risk for hacking. The ease of wireless upgrades and maintenance makes sense for most people, given that most people would likely never encounter a hacker, much less be in a situation where a hacker would benefit from hijacking their cyberarm.

Their bank accounts on the other hand are a different story, since they have intrinsic value to a hacker...

Who said Demolitions is a less than useful skill in SR4.

WMS

The thing with Cyber Eyes and Image Link, though, is that the pros far outweigh the risk. I am perfectly willing to risk exposing myself for the benefit it gives. It is one of the few wares I can say that about though.


Okay, skinlink: what the fuck is it? I mean really, how does it work? Is all of my skin now a fiber optic cable or some shit? I just can't buy that something that good would not cost essence or have a downside. For some reason, I just don't trust it. Plus, my characters with smartlink have had it since before the crash, and they're just used to it.


I think that is cool, though still, it could just as easily be accomplished by opening up the diagnostic panel (or whatever) on the limb and plugging it via fiber optic cable into a cyber-term (I assume there is still some kind of desktop computer?). Any wireless traffic that is not needed I try and prevent.


Not me, that's for sure!
Uncle Jihad: 3kg to send them to the sky, 6kg to send them to their god!

this

I visualize them as being a pad on the palm or wherever you need the interface to be that connects via touch to a similar pad on your skinlink-ready device. Old SR2/3 described it as an induction pad that things just fit together. Figure it's still like that. Not sure if it'd be optical transmission or direct contact electrical impulses or whatever, but I do figure that it'd be a very obvious alteration to the skin in the form of pokey bits and gold contacts or whatever showing up for you to plug into. (Pokey bits, that's a technical term, mind you.)

The book describes it as follows:

"Skinlink: With skinlink, a device is adapted to send and receive data transmitted through the electrical field on the surface of metahuman skin. Though limited to touch, skinlink communication has the advantage of being protected from signal interception or jamming."

It's something that you apply to an item; it's not cyberware.

See what happens when I don't have books with me? heheh So I guess technically you could set your skinlinked gun on your naked chest while laying down, and fire it at the door without touching it? Granted, it'd promptly skitter across the room and probably miss the target, but it'd be doable? That's.... interesting.

Heh, funny. Yes, technically you'd be able to do that, although I would warn kids not to try it at home.

Maybe I'm just narrow minded, but I don't see how that could replace a fiber optic cable. Does it have that kind of speed/throughput? Also, this is talking about sending things along an electrical field that is natural to the human body right? How do you deal with many devices using this at once?

Also, if this can replace the fiber optic cable of a smartlink, and you have trodes, you can be probably be black hammered by touch. That is far more a pain in the ass than it's worth.

The book is quite vague about this item, which is why I have a separate thread where I asked about some of the uses about it. So, your guess is as good as mine as to its limitations.

As for replacing the fiber optic cable, I have no clue. But, it's the near future, with more advanced technology. Why not? I don't even see how you enter the Matrix as it is, but the game says you can, so you do. So, if the game says skinlinks allow you to control electronic devices via the electrical field around your body, then why not?

As for getting hit with black hammer by touch, I don't see how that can happen. You have to be on the Matrix in the same node as the IC or hacker for that to happen. At least, in my limited understanding of the Matrix, that's what I think is correct. So, just because someone touches a skinlink to you against your will doesn't mean you can automatically get hit by attack programs.

That does bring up an interesting point. It seems like it'd be exceedingly difficult to get directed command transmissions to go through the human EM field to enact specific results to a device touching somewhere on the body. Maybe it runs with a combination of conscious thought and the awareness of the feeling of touch emanating from the position of the device.... If that's the case, how does one cope with the automatic brain filter that happens along the way when you just tune out a feeling. Example would be something resting on your leg, and you just forgetting it's there after awhile due to the consistent unchanging sensation. Seems like that could cause a complication. Easily resolved by moving, but still...

This is one of those "Brain trying to apply RL thinking to fantasy tech" things... Powering things through the body EM field is one thing. Directed communications and commands seems to be something else entirely.

Or you could skinlink your clothes also so you wouldn't have to be naked.

What's with this either-or talk?

Every piece of ware comes with DNI and internal connections to other ware by default, as well as wireless.
You are free to disable them, remove them, don't even get them - and even install Skinlink and manual switches.

If it's already got that DNI thing, your diagnostics and patches should be able to go through your datajack (you do have a datajack, right?)

Having both is redudnant (not necessarily a bad thing), but for the paranoid professional, wireless would be a *bad* thing (IMO), so only having the one would be better. Besides that, during transitions, technology often has the old and new way of doing things at the same time, but as stuff progresses, they phase out the old and only use the new, so many new pieces of ware may not have the option of DNI without custom work, and wireless would be standard, something that would cause my cyber characters to threaten violence rapidly. This is all personal preference though.

shadowrun do not go into those levels of detail because for most players it does not add anything to the experience. its the same reason why they dropped stuff like bandwidth and memory from comlinks. now you download anything in one round, no matter its size, and your software can be stored out on the net or on your comlink, the game does not care (unless your link to the outside it cut).

There might be a general misunderstanding.

DNI is an man-machine-interface, like the manual switch.
Wifi, Skinlink and internal wires are network interfaces.

So for using your ware, there is nothing better than DNI - technically, ever: you can't get more integration for implants than 'directly controlled by your brain'
Remote controlling your ware with your comlink is a step backwards.

Completely agree here. My guess is that from a fluff perspective, they couldn't get brainwaves to travel through a wireless signal without issues or something, and now that's cleaned up. It's weak, but it's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with.

And I wish they'd kept bandwidth and data sizes in game. It does affect the contents of the game, and if you didn't need it, they could just be ignored. "Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" I believe is how the saying goes.

...leave it to Microsquish to stick their name on it first. Why doesn't that surprise me?

Thats what I was trying to get at, but you said it a lot better than me.

But it's a non-issue as implants come with DNI and both Wifi and internal wiring by default.

I'd probably pull the wireless connection out, and skinlink it for maintenance. It's not exactly hard.

Hell, if y'all are worried about it in your games, just say that all this stuff comes from the factory with the wireless turned off (for security reasons), and "maintenance mode" enables it. Not that hard to do, and you run into less incidents with skript kiddies making people punch themselves in the face in restaurants.

Hehe In my game DNI, Wireless or both is an option, not standard in all DNI-type ware (such as cybereyes, limbs, reflex boosters, skillwires, etc etc) Yes, it's a houserule, but it just seemed silly otherwise. I usually default to DNI on certain things, because running your cyberarm via wireless when it's wired directly to your body seems plain silly.

nothing says you can control your 'ware by wireless, just that it has wireless installed.

so sure, your cyberarm has wireless. someone who hacks it can probably tell if your cyberarm is damaged. they can probably tell you what model it is, where it was installed (if installed legally), what devices are in it, and so forth. but make it punch your face? nope, there's no reason why it would ever do anything like that. and so that isn't included in the wireless interface. in unusual situations, they might be able to activate the devices inside, or make it redline. this would probably only be the case if, for example, the 'ware was specifically intended to be activated by someone else (if a slave had a cyberarm for example, the owner might be the one who controls the devices inside).

likewise with most other 'ware. wired reflexes won't be attached to wireless in the sense that they can be made to turn on or off, they'll be connected for simple stuff like whether or not you need to go get them adjusted though.

i would hazard a guess that any cyberlimb has a diagnostics system that can move each joint to check of issues.

would not take long for a creative hacker to come up with a subversive use of that...

still, this is one more area where if one think it adds to the game, allow it, if not then dont...

Wow, I'm totally remembering the Luddite ninjas thread.

Anyways, a big part of the problem (and why we have so much to talk about) is that the book doesn't really say how this shit works. This leaves so many weird implications, like hacking guns and cyber limbs and making them do whatever you want. What happened to the old shadowrun where you actually ran in the shadows? It seems like we are running under a big bright light and now we can't even get the mail without a hacker spoofing our data trail and running matrix overwatch. Seriously, they've gone a bit too far on their integration of wireless.

First rule of being a shadowrunner, STAY IN THE FUCKING SHADOWS.

Anyways, back to thread. With cyber, since they don't really say, I'm going to assume that it is still DNI but now with wireless functions (of which there would definitely be a market to remove). With skin link, I'm just throwing it out the window, you want to run image link on your glasses? Buy a Firewall to protect it. Also, if there aren't rules for it already, I'm gonna say that if you run Encrypt on your Commlink, it encrypts all communication through your PAN. Basically, I'm just gonna do it on a case to case basis.

What do you guys use skin link to keep secure? All I can think of is the Smartlink glasses to gun skin link. Anything else?

sure, the hacker can do all that, but is he doing so?

and if not, why?

Everything!

Medkit, grenades (skinlinked activation is a wonderful thing), vehicles, clothing, weapons, sensor packages, etc. Everything.

thing is that using skinlink alongside a trode or jack, one can in theory control anything with a chip in it thats adapted for skinlink.

I was kind of thinking this as well. If you allow your skin to ack as a network for all your goods, anyone who can access your skin can access your goods. Of course this probably wouldn't be a common worry, but it is a worry none the less.

But without the Skinlink, they'd be able to access your goods wirelessly anyway.

Not really... unless you REALLY pissed off the wrong corp. Then your life's not worth much more than dog drek.




AMEN!




Micro Sensors on my body, Commlink if it's not cyber, glasses (for recording everything you see), and ear buds if I have functionality like spatial reconizer and audio filters (turning on/off without having to futz with it). Pretty much EVERYTHING that is interacting with your PAN. When you're not on a run you can be a tad less paranoid... on a 'Run... assume EVERYBODY wants to screw you and make you have a Very Bad Day™. EMCOM protocols FTW!

Ah, but do you buy skinlink for every piece of gear? Or do you buy it once and it works for anything?

I'm thinking it has to be for every piece of gear. For 50 you can afford 20 or so for all your gear.

I have also been thinking whether the devices communicate through some "skin link router"(commlink?) or are they networked "ad-hoc" and each one communicated to each other one individually? Also, how do these things deal with ambient EM produced by the body. I am pretty sure this is constantly varying, however, I am not learned enough to know for sure.

skinlink is just a replacement for wires or wireless...

while the book says nothing about it, it seems that stuff is "broadcast" based.

so the sender (smartlink) just sends out a signal addressed to whoever its aimed at (AR glasses) but anyone else can also pick up that message and say if its for him or not.

the thing about the comlink is that its most likely the device in your collection that has the highest signal strength, and therefor the best candidate for acting as a gateway/router/whatever between your PAN (you collection of electronics, including any cyberware) and the rest of the world.

hell, i would not be surprised if there are news reporters in SR that basically report by routing his eyes and ears thru his comlink and to the news agents node, where its repackaged as needed before sent of to any subscriber.

or maybe someone runs a live "blog" of their life by just allowing anyone to log in and experience his simrig in real time.

hmm, maybe some of the mercs in the desert wars have a setup like that for those that want to experience war without actually risk being shot?

Just a quick reply on that 'firing the gun from the other side of the room': What, exactly, is that good for? Does the wirelessly smartgunned gun grow little wireless legs and adjust itself to target whomever you want to shoot from the other side of the room? Does it wirelessly compensate the recoil? Not likely. You can trigger a shot, yes, but you have zero influence on trajectory, and the gun is going to bounce through half the room afterwards.

Useful? Awesome? I don't think so. This is totally useless except in very special situations - like when your weapons have been taken by an opponent who is dumb enough not to switch their wireless off immediately (or eject the magazine). Situations most runners will propably go to great lengths to avoid. Also, firing the gun will not really help you much unless the gun's captor is holding it to his head (which is not very likely).

And for this not-quite-advantage you open yourself up to be hacked. Really clever.

If you set up the firearm to be pointing for the center of a doorway, while that's still not guaranteeing a hit, at the least it should give you a fair chance to hit someone who blunders through the doorway without realizing there's a smartlinked weapon aiming at it.

In game terms, the GM might allow a normal attack test, or inflict a small penalty (-1 or -2). That's as opposed to just throwing down the firearm pointing in the vague general direction of the door, where the GM might say there's no chance of hitting, or at the least you'll get a -6 or larger dice pool penalty.

Edit: If you use a shotgun loaded with shotshells, then the GM might even give you an attack test without penalty.