Yeah, the thing with GitS is not that it's unrealistic (to the contrary, they thought out the implications of their world really thoroughly), it's the power levels. It's not like everyone can hack everyone; there are a few wildly talented hackers, some of whom are in Section 9 and some of whom are guys like the Laughing Man, who can routinely do crazy shit. Most people have zero hacking skill, and not terribly high (legitimate) computer skills.

Which is really how it probably is in SR, too. Hacking 5 "only" costs 20 build points? Yeah, so what? Build points are for characters, not pedestrians. Oh, but someone can just spend several dozen thousand nuyen on an Agent and a bunch of hacking utilities and run scripts? Well sure, but those aren't exactly easy to get -- which really is a big deal for ordinary people. Shadowrunners have by default opportunities that ordinary people just don't have, or at least aren't aware of. The average person would no more consider learning l33t h4xing sk1llz building a hacker-in-a-box than they would buy a friggin White Knight LMG. They would also not be any more likely to improve their firewalls or install ice than the everyday luser of today. I mean hell, most people wouldn't even update their antivirus software if they didn't get prompted. Oh hey, I downloaded this thing to make my cursor turn into a smiley face or a dragon and now my computer is imperceptibly slower, that's weird, oh never mind.

It's like how people and especially institutions don't give two shits about protecting information. Identity theft and fraud and copying credit card numbers and all that stuff is so damn easy and bank tellers are not highly trained anti-forgery experts -- hell, they're not even full-time employees usually! You think some poor schmuck whose job qualifications consist of "I can count, don't have a criminal record, and own my own suit" and makes only slightly more than the kid at In-n-Out Burger can tell, or gives a damn, if that's a real check? Not likely.

And with technology advancing, all that shit gets easier and easier. Why? Convenience, carelessness, economics. People trust computers to do stuff that they don't understand. Individuals don't think they're going to be targeted because they don't really have that much to steal (ha). Unless it's a huge, rampant problem, almost nobody bothers with it. Banks -- BANKS -- don't safeguard against fraud until they have been defrauded and say "oh, how do we prevent losing more money in this exact way again?". And security takes time, so when your business depends on processing faster than someone else, you can't double- and triple-check every interaction.
More secure stuff is protected by better firewalls and better ice, and the fact that some of that ice can actually kill you is probably considered a deterrent, and that's probably correct too. But aside from that, meh. The kind of thing that's the target of a run, yeah, secure, high firewall, ice, a white-hat or two overwatching or on call, trace the connection and send some goons there -- or blow it up. Some guy's car, not so much.

What, exactly, has posessing a decent faked SIN to do with gear being hacked?


Because apparently, the devs assumed the GM would discount these possibilities to fuck with PCs.


Except if you took precautions. which one should assume your character knows about.


That'd only make sense, yes, and a nice GM would propably tell you about how this works and what you need to do to protect yourself. I think there also is a nice table about that in the BBB somewhere (matrix chapter, for all I remember).

I'd like to add a point, I have a friend that used to do cable modem service/installs, he'd go into peoples houses, and see desktop PC's siting next to wireless routers, running off the wireless connection despite the fact that less then a foot of ethernet cable would have gotten them faster downloads and more security..

Is he completely certain that they weren't wired into the router and getting that speed and security? It's not like wireless routers don't have ethernet ports. Maybe they occasionally use a laptop in a different room or allow friends to hotspot there.

Nothing, you missed the point.
Legit as per a wageslave, normal legal SIN holder, npcs. Ya know the consumer that buys stuff without the thought of wireless hacking.




Maybe this is the intention, but generally to me that would be considered a trick. Not valid for an RPG.
That is akin to hosting a FPS with friends and not telling them to turn off the cheatcodes. Actually not even telling them about the codes, but using that against them.


One can assume the character knows all sorts of shit the player doesn't. Largely this is true as per the skills teh characters have that the palyers IRL do not. It however doesn't mean the player knows to put it on his sheet.
Which is my point.




Are you telling me you have never played a game that you knew little about?
Are you also telling me that if you indeed played a game like that, that you absorbed all the new information right off that bat, or that the GM was sure to tell you every nook and cranny of info?

Point being, is SR4 was written to garner more market share or to be more appealing to a larger market, then why in hell would it make itself even more complex by leaving loopholes to screw new players.

I have seen far more complex systems out there and I have yet to see one that plants an intentional 'screw the new player because he doesn't know' mechanic in it.

Make no mistake, though SR4 has streamlined many things from older versions, it is still not a simple game.

Because gang violence doesn't extend to the Matrix and the Corp doesn't care for it's employees working securely, to minimise losses due to matrix crime? Remember, this is a world where the net pervades anything and everything, and corps have had matrix wars and matrix-based crime has been around for at least five decades.


No. It's an implication of the ingame world that makes sense.


Which is where GM advice comes in. If the GM likes to use the world including those implication, it is nescessary that he informs newbies about these implications beforehand.


Well, the mechanics are there, you have to read the BBB. And yes, I am that sort of persont hat expects players to READ THE RULES. Or otherwise learn the hard way and lose a few characters in the process. Though I really, really recommend to read the rules.

In RL, security is, well, not all that great. Yes, for things that actually can cost large sums of money even. Not that it's trivially easy to commit fraud, but it's a lot easier than it could be -- because the majority of people don't have any security mindset at all. Even most of the people who do security as part of their job (the IT guy) are pretty much going to do what is "standard" and won't get them fired or sued. Probably they run a personal risk if they try to make things more secure.

I was at an ATM today and the screen told me to cover the keypad while I put in my PIN. Shit, it's 2008 and people need that pointed out to them. That's what security means.

Which even further supports gear to have built indefence. Note< I am not saying take away all the Hackers toys. What I am saying is SR3, Deckers had it tough they had a specific path to go. SR4 seems to have gone overboard, instead of giving a few toys and options to hack, they were given a dump truck of toys. "Everything is hackable and wireless. Oh btw did we mention that every single item has a computer in it? Yeah that #2 pencil is wireless... just so an ingenious hacker can use it to piggyback to the stapler then to the fan and the piggybank to hack aunt Berthas frying pan."



Again, I have no issues with that in game, but the BBB is not written as an in-game manual, neither is the gear section. *so* if all the gear in the gear section is for players to purchase for their shadowrunners and shadowrunners by nature are more intuned with security, then that gear should be equipped.

ie: if it is SOP then why put a player through the excercise of add 50 measly nuyen to his items to say it is skinlinked. For the chance that the GM can scour his Sheet and find that the player screwed up and didn't Skinlink his flashlight? I mean really.. wtf.




I am a GM having done if for a long damned time. However, I am particularly in this situation reading the Fing book. That doesn't mean I will know everything by the time I run. I also understand its my game and I can play how I want. However for the first few games at least I am running SRM until I get the hang of SR4.

I am not comfortable with the notion that something I glossed over or missed right out will screw the players over. That isn't condusive to appreciated the system. I also don't like the idea of reading a mission finding out that item I missed and telling the players to retroactivley 'purchase' or give them firewalls or skinlinks. Really hard to have an interesting game when they know something specific is going to happen because I had to prepare them for it.




Amazingly enough people in general don't recall everything. I am sure there are plenty of SR1,2, 3, 4 players and GMs that cannot pull every rule out. I would hazzard a guess that the vast majority cannot name every rule.


Again, If it becomes common that all runners are properly protected, (as the characters would know to do something you mentioned) then the system should reflect that. Not add complexity for the sake of it.

For example Commlinks: It is explained what they are, how they function and how common they are. However, it is not required and explained how and why, wand the likely outcome of not having a commlink. Now, this I do not mind as it is *one* item that is somewhat noted in nearly every section of the book.

It is not your 1-10 pieces of cyber and your 20+ items of gear. (I have 7 personal items on or near me right now that would all have to be taken into account) + everything else you could possibly imagine.

It is a matter of book keeping.

Its much easier just to write off 5k nuyen and just say everything is linked. And if it comes to that, why not put it in the Fing book.

No, but propably bundle sales.


I see you got the idea of the wireless matrix.


And since NPCs aren't all retarded cannon fodder, so will they. As a rule of thumb, what players can use can be used against them, too. Of course, it's important to keep fairness here - if players never call headshots and don't always hack cars to hit chasing police cars, the GM shouldn't start doing that. However, if the players do that, that it's fair game for the GM, too.


Sure, but most players know about, say, ritual sorcery searches and what a blood sample can do to them, don't they? This is just like that. One more thing that people who play SR4 have to take care of. Again, it wasn't my idea. It's just something you have to live with if you play SR4. Don't like it, stick to SR3.

'Of which I would be fine. At the point of character creation it makes little difference, bundle sale/ built in basic defense.
Like, "you must hack a commlink before hacking its slave node" to me that is built in defense. Spoofing MAC codes is not. and far too easy imo.



Yup, that is the crux isn't it and why I am spending quite a bit of time and effort to learn SR4. In order to give it mine and my players fair test. Else you damn skippy I'll be going back to SR3 and not another dime spent on SR4s stuff. Ashame since I have been an avid supporter of SR since release of SR2.

Let's hote, then, that Unwired adresses thatproblem and explains how exactly slaving works, hm?


I feel your pain. I'm still not quite sure if I want to go that way, myself, though Arsenal really threw me off.

Ok, here's the thing that fixes your hacking. It's not in the book, but it should probably be an example. Some of this has been stated, but I want to put it together.

Signal Range 0 = 1 meter. So to hack the cyberware you have to be within 1 meter of a cybersammy (I hope you're on friendly terms)

But we can bounce signals off of everything.
Only if they are public (or you have access to them) repeaters. I use a retrans unit, Seattle is covered by repeaters so everyone can work anywhere. But for the cyberware to communicate with the repeater you still have to be within one meter of it (signals must be able to reach each other).

But they're standing next to the toaster, I bounce a signal off of it.
You'll have to hack it in order to do that.

Fine I hack the toaster, and now hack from there.
Welcome to the toaster, Response/System rating 1. It can handle one program running through it at a time, do you want to hack or stealth? Hack with your program rating 1.

This is gonna take a little time
You're running no stealth, guess what system alerts. The sammy takes 3 steps to the left (or 1 in the case of the troll), and your signal is lost. Locate another toaster within the 1 meter range.

If you have to bounce through nodes to get to somewhere you will be affected by the rating of those nodes. You will only be able to run as fast as the slowest node. Try to connect to a server, then use that server to connect to another, and so on... Its crippling to whatever you are doing on the last one (hence why I work in the office even though I am able to work from home, our system is set up to require this kind of system hopping to connect)

Its not easy to hack a rating 0 signal, because you have to have a constant connection within 1 meter of it. Thats why the commlink is usually hacked first, it has a higher signal, and stays with them. Which is why you only need to firewall/protect one device, not everything.

Maybe I'm on the wrong path as to how Unwired will fix this discrepency, but this is the way I've viewed it... Note all of this is torn to shreds by a Technomancer who is not limited by the systems he's playing on. All hail the might of the Technomancer!

1 minor thing, signal 0 has a range of 3 meters iirc, not 1.

however, strictly speaking that's not how things work. would probably be helpful if it was, but then you'd have someone using a rating 1 commlink with high signal just so that you still can't hack their cyber even if you go through their commlink

Please forgive me if my points have been brought up in this thread or elsewhere. I've been reading this thread for hours and I haven't seen my points made.

From my understanding of the game and some common sense, here's what I think cyberware connections work.

In an example piece of cyberware, say a cyberarm, you have a DNI connection with the cyberarm. You think 'grab the cup' and your arm picks up the cup. This is not wireless. It uses your nerves. Does the cyberarm have wireless? Sure. Is it used to communicate with your body? No. Is it connected to anything to move the cyberarm? I don't see why it would, as the only thing you'd want to be able to control the arm would be the person's brain. What can this wireless connection be used for? Displaying sensor data to your PAN, for one. If your joint starts to wear out your cyberarm would wirelessly attempt to connect to your commlink and through your commlink try to communicate to you that you need maintenance on your arm, the SR4 version of a 'Check Engine' light.

There's lots of uses for wireless communication between cyberware. For example, a biomonitor. You have too high of a cholesterol so your biomonitor wirelessly connects to your commlink and from there to your AR displaying device (cybereyes, contacts, glasses, whatever) and gives you a warning about your health and suggests certain foods that can help and can even give you directions to the nearest health food store or healthy restaurant.

There's even better, every day Average Joe examples. If you're not a shadowrunner, just a typical 9-to-5er, you have access to a couple pieces of low class cyberware and you have a commlink and some contacts that allow you to experience AR. Do you want to shell out extra money so your contacts can use a skinlink to communicate with your commlink, or would you just go ahead and use wireless?

All this argument about wireless is a bit silly. Look at today's stuff. A laptop. Do you want people hacking your computer? No. Does that mean that when you're sitting outside a coffee shop you're going to huddle next to the wall and use a wired connection or are you going to be comfortable and use wireless? Yeah. Wireless. However, if you've got sensitive data on your laptop and you could lose your life or your job if that information got out, would you have wireless enabled? No.

Why couldn't that be transmitted via nerves, for instance as pseudoarthritic joint pain feeling? That'd make going to the cyberdoc all the mroe compelling as popups in your field of view reminding you that maintainance is due. Nobody listens to popups. Everybody listens to pain.


Actually, that is a reason to rip that bloody thing out. Or just switch that annoying function off. Even my rigger with her eating disorders wouldn't accept this (actually, she does and switches it off most of the time - you can build exactly the same with internal hard-wired DNI in both SR3 and SR4, in SR4 using a zero signal rating, wireless-disabled internal commlink as a router). I don't really see anyone except really tech-affine people using that as you say.


If you handle something remotely sensitive, data-wise, where you work, your employer will demand you do. Just as companies and governments start to do today (the use of blackberries and similar phone computers has been banned for french public servants, for instance).


Uhm, yes. Or I'd use a non-sensitive laptop. However, my laptop isn't direcly conected to my eyes, ears, brain and limbs, so ... duh?

If I was at a public access point then I would not be checking my bank account. In fact, unless I absolutely needed to check my email, I would not connect at all. I DON'T want ANYBODY to hack my computer... color me paranoid, but that's the way I am.

Personally, I'd call that reasonably security-conscious. But then again, I'm propably paranoid myself.

Because most people don't like pain. I'd much rather know that my car needs an oil change by seeing an indicator on my dashboard than to have some mysterious pain in my body.



I was talking personal life, not work. Also, I was talking about a typical 9-to-5er. Someone who works at a restaurant or manages the floor at a factory. The specific example I used I was also talking about after work anyway.



I thought I implied two different situations and two different laptops, but if you're using a sensitive laptop for personal fun time use then you're not very smart. Also, I was using a modern example to show a level of convenience. I'm quite aware of the difference between a laptop and a cybereye... duh?

Point is, cyber IS part of your body. And you don't have to like the error message. It should be compelling to act on it, though.


If you are used to a certain level of security on the job, you won't just let your guard down totally in private. And yes, a non-corp worer propably would care less about matrix security. Though even nowadays, implant manufacturers are considering security measures on implants to make hacking them more difficult (because, get this, it IS possible to hack medical implants and, say, kill someone by fucking with his pacemaker).


Okay, sure. Point is, I'd not use wireless on my personal laptop either because I won't have that hacked easily either. Because, while it may not be classified, there's bound to be stuff on there I care about and would hate to lose to some code kiddo who plays with worms.

As for the cyber: your commlink directly cnnects to your cyberware, so it's a lot more personal, closer to your self and your body and having it hacked will make your life a lot more hellish than a hack on your PC will, because while that might cost you some stuff you're attached zu emotionally, a commlink hack and cyber hacking can cost you everything, including your life, should the attacker play black death beetles into your brain.

As for implants heck you do not have to hack, just "acquire" a pacemaker programmer, they are not kept under lock and key. Just amplify the signal, and you can do it across the room.

My home desktop never dials out with out me allowing to, nor does it go and get updates with me knowing. I have a hardware and software firewalls, and many add inns to FireFox to keep alot of the script kiddie things from getting in.

Why, I have spent too much of my time resolving issues due to that happening with out the user being aware of it, a good part of my work time is spent resolving these issues.

No I am not paranoid, just been there seen that, my shadowrunner lock down wireless devices very hard.

WMS

Hermit, it's obvious you're fairly safety conscious, but you need to realize one very important thing. The average joe schmoe is NOT. I work in telecommunications right now up to and including dealing with wi-fi networks, and previously in the computer industry. It is absolutely friggin' ridiculous how many people don't bother to secure their computers, their networks or anything. They just don't care. It doesn't bother them that someone could hog bandwidth or hack into their network. Permeate society with wireless and that attitude will increase exponentially. There will be some, such as you and I and many others here on DS that secure their systems and make sure people don't get in. But we are in the minority, generally speaking. The general populace neither knows nor cares about what security they need and how to keep it updated. People are at risk every day because of apathy and ignorance, and that is not a trend that's going away. It's getting worse each and every day.

By 2070, finding an unsecured network or comlink won't be hard. Finding the secured ones will be.

Because it won't hurt them much (they think) if they don't bother. With cymmlinks being the gateway to (parts of) their bodies, things are a tad different. That's what I'm saying.

Where do you get from that, after two disasterous computer crashes, people will still not care? I just can't see that. People also started to care about, say, that nuclear power plants can be dangerous only after two blew up.


To be fair, it's pretty hard to kill or physically hurt or cripple someone by hacking their PC. It's quite easy with a commlink, especially if that person is cybered.

After two disasterous computer crashes that *no amount of security* could hinder or stop. In the Crash of 29 nothing could stop the Virus or Echo Mirage. In Crash 2.0 not even one of the most secure sites in the world, Shadowland, could withstand the crap that went on. So yeah, I do think the general populace would really be in a quandry regarding security.




I agree with Jhaiisiin.
Which goes back to my point of basic defense should be built in to the gear/ware.
I suppose a device rating of 3 may be considered basic defense, but even I know that is really a joke.
I do hope this is resolved with Unwired as the way it can be (everything is open and accessible) is just a bit much.
If this were an MMORPG the Hacker would be on the nerf block.

Because the North Americans were careless. In Europe, canon says, most nets were somewhat saved when Lofwyr shut them down forcefully. Praise the dragon, or something.


Which is why everyone panicks when Technos appear (considering they haven't read their own and the TMs stats and rules, they have no in-game reason to). They panic about that threat to their security because they don't care about that security at all? Highly unlikely.


Uhm, isn't Rating 3 pretty much like hoping an umbrella will stop bullets? And as the rules don't mention built in defense (yet), it's a bit of a drag to assume it for the world to fit your interpretation of it. Now granted, it's fair game in your campaign, but not nescessarily official canon stuff.

Norton/Symantec isn't a really good layer of security these days, but nearly everyone uses it. Good marketing will make up for lack of functionality. A person who knows about, wants or needs that security will get the extra software (read: firewall rating) necessary to beef up their security and reduce their risk. Most people don't fall into either of those 3 qualifiers.

Seriously, you give people way more credit than they deserve.

Uhh... hold that thought. I thought ICs - black or other - coudn't kill you unless you're on hot sim?

The way I got it, a hacker getting into your commlink has access to your personal stuff - he knows your name, address, your bank account data, what you drive, where you work, where you shop, what you eat... all of that real if he actually got a hold of your real link, as opposed to a "working" link with your fake sin on it.

If you've got cyberware attached (with wireless, either directly or via the commlink), there's a few more things he can do.

1. Cybereyes: Get feed from your eyes in his PAN, see what you see. Access your data files for anything you might have saved there.

2. Cyberears: see eyes.

3. Smartlink: get feed from your gun, fire your gun, change any mods on the weapon (single shot to burst...).

For most other cyber systems, I'd say he's limited to start diagnostics or re-set the 'ware to take it out of commission for a round or two until it's restarted again.

Or am I getting this wrong?

There are no definite rules out yet to cover that, so whether you are getting this wrong or not isn't possible to say.

Also, isn't there damage overflow any more?

There is damage overflow. Not sure what prompted the inquiry though.

Perhaps I should clarify: is there still Stun damage overflow into physical?

Yes, there is. But I don't think a hacker or agent can directly attack you unless you're on hot sim.

Sure does, but as far as I know, while Black Hammer will cause this (when it doesn't actually do Physical damage outright), Blackout will not.

Then dumpshocking the brain over and over again as you reset the cyberware should work to kill it, shouldn't it?

you can't dumpshock the brain by resetting cyberware. unless you're resetting an internal commlink, of course. or, i suppose, if the person is in the cyberware's node. either way, they'd have to be in full sim [edit] i mean full VR [/edit], AR wouldn't do (and i think it's reasonable to suppose that the default is for your commlink to start up in AR mode).

in the event that someone has a sim module (hot or cold) it is possible to kill them with black hammer. it's slower if they're in coldsim (you have to overflow their stun monitor first) but can be done.

My point being that the person always is "in" their cyberware, using them intuiotively in the same way as a full-immersion user uses the matrix.

There's nothing in the rulebook to that effect, no.

Because cyberware hacking has no rules at all, as of yet, for the vast majority of implants, yes. Emergence will hopefully fix that.

It could be there are no rules because it wasn't intended to be hacked, but that may be interpreting way too much into it.

As an aside, Corning is actually working on a way to transmit electrical power over a fiber optic link.

(Involves some sort of glass matrix structure running down the core of the fiber, I'm not sure how it is supposed to work exactly)

Another thought about skinlinks...

A laser can ionize the air along it's path, reducing electrical resistance of said air.

Would that be enough to transmit a modulated electrical signal?

Hacking someone's skinlink network by remote?


-karma

Sure, if you don't mind energy losses of around 90%, you can hook up the end of an optical cable to a solar cell.


Possibly, but a laser of sufficient strength would kill the person hit before you could do anything useful to them, I'm afraid.


Orn because they actually wanted stuff to put into Emergence ... which, the seers guild tells me, WILL cover this topic.

Just to get you on the right track its Unwired thats coming out with Matrix stuff. Emergence is the Technomancer plot/mission book that is already available.

I shouldn't post when I have had way too little sleep. Theoretically, I actually know that.

Theory ain't always the same is practice, is it? heheh

Not solar cell tech, some sort of internal glass latticework structure that electrons can flow down. Last I heard still in the experimental stage.

Primarily being developed for deep sea fiber so they don't have to bury a separate electrical cable to power the optical signal boosters that are necessary for long optic fiber runs.


-karma

You get dumpshock when you're running cold or hot sim and you get dumped from a node. You don't run sim to talk to your cyberarm (or 99% of your other ware, for that matter)... that'd be silly, because among other things running sim kicks in the ASIST override and prevents you from moving. You just control it via Direct Neural Interface. I'm not "jacked into" my cyberarm, I just send the signal from my brain that used to tell my meat arm to move, and the cyberarm picks it up and moves accordingly. So, no, there's nothing in the rules that specifically states you don't get dumpshock from having a "node" on your body get rebooted... but you aren't logged into that node using cold or hot sim at any point, so there's no reason to suspect that you'd get dumpshock from this any more than you get dumpshock from dropping the smartgun you were firing a moment ago to quickdraw another.

The way you kill someone with cyberlimbs doesn't involve rebooting them repeatedly, it involves punching them in the face repeatedly with their own arm

You got most of them. You forgot:

1. Cybereyes/ears: feed data to his Image Link/audio to make him see/hear things (or nothing at all), possibly using Edit to turn things "invisible" or make them see phantom objects. The best Edit attack is to simulate the Chaotic world spell, since there's a 50/50 chance the target will think "mage" rather than "hacker."

3. Smartlink: don't forget the ever popular "eject magazine" command.

Well heck, if you're gonna mod his vision to show one of the opponents is a mage, you may as well make sure he thinks your walking armored wall is the mage. Much better to have the enemy shooting your hardened street sam than your squishy hacker or mage.

Then it would be conductive glass, not optical energy transmission. But yeah, it MIGHT work of they get the conduct-o-glass stuff to work like a superconductor would.


Or project an image of a mage over a squadmate. Better to have the baddies shoot each other than the team, aye?

True, and a possibility. However, I figured they'd realize the guy next to them likely wasn't a badguy, and might suspect a trick, whereas the guys down range defintely are the bad guys, and he'll be more apt to believe the spoof. That's my take on it anyway.

so why not tell him that the wall (not the sammy, the actual wall of a building) is the mage? =D

The partially obscured mage who is obviously using a bad invisibility or camoflauge spell? Sure, whynot?