Bandlager!? Man, I have been to band camp, and there was no lager! None!

Well, someone has been going to the wrong band camps...

Wait, there are right band camps?
And just because I had a "Banddimebag" instead of a "Bandlager" doesn't mean it was lame. It was lame because it was band camp, and it needs no other reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

It wasn't a case of either/or for me when I went to band camp ... I had both! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Hehe, this is a great derailment, you got me thinking about what a conversation between people using UCAS fish would be like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

...yeah, Brett Farve was only 34 when he retired this year and in NFL circles he was considered "the old man of the gridiron" However with all the physical knocks he's taken in his career and stress he's dealt with both on & off the field, he looks like he's 20 to 30 years older.

Still, I wish I was his age again.

Think about Shadowrunning though and it kind of ties in. I mean, if you end up starting at say....21 for whatever reason(if not sooner if you end up starting from the street, Im saying 21 for someone who started some sort of real job around 18 and then ended up in the shadows. If you're still alive at 34, you've been through hell and back, more than likely and anyone i know tries to retire ASAP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Dear, oh dear..
..Don't hold back, why not tell us how you feel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Though, I'm not sure what your obsession with foam projectiles has to do with anything..
..Tho I can imagine that having to actually roleplay and justify your series of better-than-almost-anyone-else skills wouldn't be nice.




I assumed the incentive to acquire a high skill is similar to the one in the realworld - to be the better than anyone else at what you do, else why bother to acquire any skills at all ??

I don't think the path of a Mage/Adept has ever meant to be an easy one !!
That's the point of having access to abilities not available to the average person.
Playing a Character with a high Karma cost is the choice you make when generating a Mage, in the same way that you accept that being full of 'ware costs money and Essence.





Your own example indicates that maintaining the very high skill levels that a Character has should involve some sort of maintenance - and I imagine training simulations would be a good choice for some skills.
Now, when a Character has several skills at amazingly high levels, all that training would have to have an impact on their ability to do other things like actual 'Runs, learning new skills, travelling, building things, etc.
Though, many of those things could actually count as the training/maintenance [that's something from the GURPS rulebook].


I didn't actually mention any costs, or timeframes for any Karma costs..
..But I guess the consensus is that people just don't want their Characters to have to do anything to maintain their edge [and I can't say I blame them, but I do think if you want to keep a swathe of ultra high skills, you should have to work for them].

I don't hate the idea of having to roleplay maintaining your skills. Karma isn't roleplaying, karma is experience points, it is a total metagame which has little if anything to do with reality. I don't think requiring karma upkeep for skills would cause better roleplaying, it would just face Awakened people with a really awful karma crunch. They already live and die by karma, now you want to take some of it away, just because? No thanks.

Now, I would be open to the rule that if you don't get your practice in, you can spend karma to upkeep. I think there are some people who are great at a skill and never practice; the best way to explain that is sheer cosmic luck. Charging people karma to retain their legendary skills while sitting around bars and drinking, without practicing, would be acceptable. But charging them karma, even though they spend their time making sure their skills don't degrade, I can't see how that's justified.

I really think that the whole idea would require way too much bookeeping though. You'd have to keep track of each skill, how close it is to degrading, the last time it was kept up... It's just not worth it. Shadowrun is just not that realistic of a system. Maybe it's unrealistic for someone to stay good without practicing, but maybe for the sake of having a cool story that doesn't involve badasses putting in long hours at the gym instead of rocking around town, we should let it go.

I'd disagree. There are some people who are natually good at something, and who maybe have a 'knack' for something and learn it quicker than others. But nobody gets to golf like Tiger Woods, or shoot like Carlos Hathcock, or sing like Pavarotti unless they're constantly practicing. Without practice their RL skill might degrade from a 7 to a 6 in a year, or even less, but they'd have an easier time re-learning when they got their nose back to the grindstone.

That said, I think this is another case where realism gets in the way of fun, and generally isn't worth it.

By the quote below you implied a karma cost for High skills.

So based on that there is some point that your skill is not High and therefor not 'charged' to upkeep it. Call it a 4, now if a person has to worry about paying upkeep for a 5 or 6 but not a 4, you better believe they would sit at a 4 on many skills and try to get non-perishable improvements for that skill.




True, however you are talking about taxing something that is already being taxed. BTW: wired reflexes is an ability not available to the 'average person' Unless you think Mr. Wageslave drops 11k just for the hell of it all the time. (Now had you said, "average Shadowrunner...")


Lastly I believe you said:

You have 'em.

This sums up my feelings pretty well. Sure, it's realistic for most skills, but it's overcomplicated and not fun.

I feel compelled to mention that olympic gymnasts are often in their low teens, and top of the line ballet dancers start being 'old' in their early twenties.

Age and expertise, even extreme expertise are not necessarily opposites, and for physically demanding jobs youth is a massive equalizer.

If it bugs you that much, pretend that those 18 year olds actually get the benefit of +3 to all physical attributes or something, and that old fogeys have lost it or somesuch...


And if you actually USE that rule I will find you and I will fong you. Hard. There will be pain involved. Lots and lots of pain.

Heh, ok, Ill come clean now.

I have a concept in my head for a 25 year old with a 7. I didn't want to think i was doing something out of this world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

...in 3rd ed, Leela had Demolitions 6 (specialised to 8 in Improvised Explosives) and Keyboard Specialisation 10 for her Performance Skill when I started her and she was only 18. Of course it was chronicled in her backstory so the GM had no issue with it.

I typically decide my character's age after I've set out a time line based on skills.

One thing I suggested many moons ago was to allow constant training to give 'free' skill points as long as the training was recent. So you permanent skill level might be four, but your constant training in that skill allows it to operate at an effective five. A combination of stuff like your lifestyle, your hobbies, your hospital stays, etc determine how much free time you have to spend on training. This also allows quick skill aquisition for certain runs. The PCs all want to parachute for a run, so they all train in parachuting and get a few levels of parachuting that they'll all forget in a few weeks unless they spend karma on it.

This also lets skills degrade after while, but only those skills that the PCs didn't spend karma on to have permanently. This way, the PCs don't feel horribly shafted by their skills 'degrading', they just need to get back into training to get to the level they were at before.

I haven't had a good fonging for years (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Anyways, I was just asking opinions..
..NOT trying to force a bookkeeping nightmare on anyone - honest !!

Honestly, I think the Karma Cap takes into account the "continued training to maintain skills" rather well. What is it, when you go above the Karma cap, you start getting half Karma, or something like that? At that point though, 80 Karma, I think, your characters are likely to have a few really high skills. To me, that covers the idea of "maintanence training" rather effectively.

Karma Cap? Did i miss something in the book?

The first one is always on the House... after that: you pay.