Well, we've all seen it...18 year olds with craploads of pretty high skills. I mean, kind of hard to explain somewhat. It's not the 'real world', its a game, and characters SHOULD be able to do more than the average joe in our real world, but i suppose SOME kind of explanation should be given.

On the other hand, surely not every 6 or even 7 belongs only to old geezers. There might be some old geezers who don't even have over a 3 in skills.

How do you guys handle this?

Ive made characters running from 18 to 50, and they all had varied skill ratings. Ive had 25 year olds with a 6, but a 48 year old with multiple 4's. Do you think any of this is right, or wrong?

It's easy to explain the older blood who has alot of more moderate skills; they simply spread themselves out over their years. But what about giving a younger guard one or two bleeding edge skills; do you find this believable? I mean, take a fighting skill. Surely if you take a kid and stick him in a martial art when he's 6 years old, and have him train his ass off til he's 24, that 18 years has to probably amount to a scary skill. Or non combat: take that little kid and start drilling them in computers. 18 years of computer experience is going to have a pretty damn crazy computer kid. (And we all hear on the news about those odd 13 year olds...while some are just script kiddies, some indeed have hacked the government. And usually get hired as soon as they are working age.)

What's it like in your world? Do you as GMs limit skill ratings by age, play it as a roleplaying game rather than real life and allow a person to at least come up with a reason their 25 year old has a 7? Or hell, a 48 year old with 15+ skills at rating 4(hey, they can dump a crapload of skill points in), that's a LOT of veteran skills even for someone older.

I was just wondering some consensus here. Personally, im the GM that'll let the player explain it to me, and work with them, if they want a prodigy(7 skill lets say) at something at the age of 21 then i don't really have a problem with it if they give me a decent little story. (Now, a 21 year old with a 7, 3 skill groups at 4, 4 more skills at 4 and a few 3's i might need some real good explaining.)

I used to know a guy who spoke 37 languages fluently...
He died at age 24...
Anything is possible...

This came up in conversation a few days ago..
..But from a different angle.

Games like GURPS limit the amount of points you can put into skills, based on your age.
Others limit the number of points you can put into your professional skills [weapons for a soldier, etc], with the remainder in more background/day-to-day skills.
Games like Traveller generate your character in blocks of time, allocating skill points at each block.


We were trying to work out a way for people to age in blocks, allocating points at each step, to try and have characters develop over time - rather than being born fully skilled.

Keep in mind many if not most of your Olympic athletes and Professional ball players are in their 20's.
Tiger Woods was in his 20's when he started stomping professional ass, iirc.


Keep in mind in many physical activities, mid 20's is the prime age, wher a person can reach their maximum potential.

To me it is all about character background. Write no background or a crappy one and I am less likely to let you sit on that 6 skill.

You know, thinking of modern sports people is an interesting thought; and i do agree with you on the background. I mean, as a GM id allow about anything if you give me a good and/or entertaining enough reason for it.


But true on those sports folks...Tiger was beating guys more than twice his age and if you're playing sports these days into your 30s your considered ''getting ready for retirement'.

That's a pretty crazy sniper story, too. It's hard to picture how long that really is, i mean a mile and a half is easy to walk but sheesh, hitting something?

Well, there is always just simple natural talent as well as good training. You do hear the odd stories about those sports dudes that just sorta come up from nowhere and are just good from high school practice.

Sniper? He was using a MACHINE GUN! I didn't see that it said he shot only 1 bullet anywhere in that.

I'd say that there shouldn't be any correlation between age and skill. Of course, commonly younger people don't have as high of skills because they haven't been practicing as long. But Shadowrun characters don't have to be common people. They could be one in a million types, who had a 7 by age 7. You should let them do what they want so long as it's part of a decent character concept. Telling people they can't play the character they want just because someone of age x can't have skill y is an example of really pointless GM intervention. The GM should intervene to prevent un-fun things from happening. Telling people their characters are too young based on an arbitrary notion of ordinary skill levels is not an example of that. Unless the player wants to do something stupid that would harm the fun of other people. There have to be limits, but they should be obvious limits, and they should be flexible to accommodate a player's legitimate wishes for their characters. One of the must fun-killing things I've ever experienced, however, is GMs taking issue with nitpicky details of my character, picking on their age, skill level, background, stats, because one thing or another isn't quite right, until it really isn't my character anymore. That should be avoided.

Tarantula, why do you think there's .50 cal sniper rifles around today? They're purpose-built bolt-action rifles using calibers previously only used in machine guns. Hathcock only took the one shot, far as I know. Back in Vietnam he got a hold of a Browning M2 machine gun, set it to semi-automatic fire and bracketed on a scope meant for a .30-6. Turned out to have twice the range of his rifle, and he's actually often credited as the inspiration for the previously mentioned purpose built sniper rifles now around today.

Frankly, if a GM started giving me crap about my skills I'd probably just end up saying "Fine. I guess I'm 30" or go home unless he had some previously mentioned theme or power level planned out.

You should read the book, fairly good, and there is plenty of backup information to satisfy if you really don't believe it.
As I recall the M2 was modified to fire 1 round at a time.

Yeah and as Whipstitch mentioned, this was the inspiration to the 50 cal sniper rifles of today.

Sorry, I just read that he had used a machine gun, which to me, conjured the image of him holding down the trigger and watching the tracer rounds fall till it hit the guy.

We haven't ever really discusses this as a group but I think we all have the general belief that in the field of Shadowrunning you NEED these 6 or 7 skills to survive. How often do you see cooking and mowing grass on a characters sheet? Shadowrunners don't do these normal things, they live on the edge and get shot at in everyday life. Even in stealth and decking campaigns these people NEED these abilities and, in this field of work, I believe these skills would build quickly. An older Runner would definitely have higher skills, but with an older character you have to wonder, just how long has he been running the Shadows? A 19 year old who's been Shadowrunning since he was 9 would have to have lived a badass life, whilst a 30 year old who goes to shooting ranges everyday wouldn't touch him.

In the end, it comes down to the life the Shadowrunner lives I believe. Everybody has a skill they've picked up at a young age. I'm a tech person and a writer dude, but I also know beautiful artists and brilliant chefs who bloom at young ages. Same for a Shadowrunner, but with shooting stuff.

(On a side note, if a character is under 16 he gets penalties at character creation in our group.)

Well, considering that you're allowed to only start with one skill at rating 6, or two skills at rating 5..
..And that rating 6 is meant to be the best-of-the-best, most people should be starting with skills in the 3-4 range.

Considering how much training someone needs to be an Athletics star, people shouldn't really have more than a few [probably related] skills in the rating 5 range.

Except that people build their characters fully formed, with little regard to how they got there..
..Which leads to training.


Should Characters have to expend Karma to maintain their high skills ??
Professionals with high degrees of skill need to do lots of training to maintain their edge - 4+ hours a day for Athletes, regular courses for Techies, lots of socialising to maintain contacts, lots of maintenance for technical gear, etc.


Thoughts ??

When discussing rules and math in an RPG, my thoughts are quite like my opinions when discussing a government's hand in the day to day affairs of it's citizens; when in doubt, less is better.

Honestly, i do take your side here. I mean, again, ill raise a question if there ar ejust insanse numbers of high skills...but then again, i might question a 30 year old if they spend 270 BPs on skills alone. But again, just give me a little background and that's it.

Ive actually been questioned and shot down a bit before in the past for playing someone with a too high skill at a young age. Not with our group of course, but it's happened. I was never a fan of it. I see some folks here tend to share the sentiment that 'if it make sense, run with it'.

No. That's what we would call the biggest nerf ever to nerf in all of nerfdom. It is a TERRIBLE and POINTLESS idea. Sorry to be blunt, but I HATE your suggestion.

I would say no, provided they have reasonable downtime.

It is true, high skill levels are highly temporary. This is why military forces train as much as they can afford to.

I would assume that normally 'runners practice a lot off camera. If the runners _were_ in a situation where they couldn't practice at all for a few weeks, I would consider dropping the skill by one rank, but letting them buy it back at half karma value once they can practice again. AR technology would likely make it possible to practice most skills in almost any condition.

For example, with a training sim based on Miracle Shooter, a Samurai could fight an elite team of corpsec guards in any abandoned building, over and over, with Lone Star never even knowing.

Agreed. Though I think Larme is a bit extreme in the damning of the idea, the idea of upkeep karma costs would be not an incentive to acquire a high skill. It would also be unfair across the character types, as some (mages/ adepts) already have more than a bit of a karma drain to just keep improving. As opposed to possible 'cash' improvements of cyber/ bio users.

I do assume for the most part that the downtime of 'runners is filled with off-screen upkeep of skills. Now, when a player of mine specifically says, "I am training all the time every day at least 4 hours" I do not give them any game mechanic perks, save for maybe allowing them to improve more than 1 skill at a time, if said skill was the ones being 'trained'.

I did have a system of skill erosion worked out, where as the skill eroded and the character got back 1/2 karma. However! that was for a specific campaign where the players started at 9yrs old and we played them until they were 25. A scenario or two every 3 years of age until they reached 25 where the game became more of a traditional run style. This again was a special case that I had in mind and the 25 yr old characters ended up base+50 karma characters when we started the 'traditional' game. (SR3 btw)

...in game terms, at age ten, W.A. Mozart would have a 5 - 6 Logic/Intuition and skill rating of at least 6 (maybe 7 with expertise) in Artisan (Music). Several composers, such as Mendelssohn, Schubert, Chopin, etc. had composed solo, chamber, and even symphonic works by their pre- to mid-teens.

Yeah, but they're just bandies.

Absotively, but Rockerz R Kool!

How _do_ you say "And one time at band camp..." in 18th century german?

...riiight.....

...and Rembrandt, Degas, and Monet were "doodlers"...

"Und einmal am Bandlager... "?

Babelfish?

Guilty!

Bandlager!? Man, I have been to band camp, and there was no lager! None!

Well, someone has been going to the wrong band camps...

Wait, there are right band camps?
And just because I had a "Banddimebag" instead of a "Bandlager" doesn't mean it was lame. It was lame because it was band camp, and it needs no other reason.

It wasn't a case of either/or for me when I went to band camp ... I had both!

Hehe, this is a great derailment, you got me thinking about what a conversation between people using UCAS fish would be like

...yeah, Brett Farve was only 34 when he retired this year and in NFL circles he was considered "the old man of the gridiron" However with all the physical knocks he's taken in his career and stress he's dealt with both on & off the field, he looks like he's 20 to 30 years older.

Still, I wish I was his age again.

Think about Shadowrunning though and it kind of ties in. I mean, if you end up starting at say....21 for whatever reason(if not sooner if you end up starting from the street, Im saying 21 for someone who started some sort of real job around 18 and then ended up in the shadows. If you're still alive at 34, you've been through hell and back, more than likely and anyone i know tries to retire ASAP.

Dear, oh dear..
..Don't hold back, why not tell us how you feel

Though, I'm not sure what your obsession with foam projectiles has to do with anything..
..Tho I can imagine that having to actually roleplay and justify your series of better-than-almost-anyone-else skills wouldn't be nice.




I assumed the incentive to acquire a high skill is similar to the one in the realworld - to be the better than anyone else at what you do, else why bother to acquire any skills at all ??

I don't think the path of a Mage/Adept has ever meant to be an easy one !!
That's the point of having access to abilities not available to the average person.
Playing a Character with a high Karma cost is the choice you make when generating a Mage, in the same way that you accept that being full of 'ware costs money and Essence.





Your own example indicates that maintaining the very high skill levels that a Character has should involve some sort of maintenance - and I imagine training simulations would be a good choice for some skills.
Now, when a Character has several skills at amazingly high levels, all that training would have to have an impact on their ability to do other things like actual 'Runs, learning new skills, travelling, building things, etc.
Though, many of those things could actually count as the training/maintenance [that's something from the GURPS rulebook].


I didn't actually mention any costs, or timeframes for any Karma costs..
..But I guess the consensus is that people just don't want their Characters to have to do anything to maintain their edge [and I can't say I blame them, but I do think if you want to keep a swathe of ultra high skills, you should have to work for them].

I don't hate the idea of having to roleplay maintaining your skills. Karma isn't roleplaying, karma is experience points, it is a total metagame which has little if anything to do with reality. I don't think requiring karma upkeep for skills would cause better roleplaying, it would just face Awakened people with a really awful karma crunch. They already live and die by karma, now you want to take some of it away, just because? No thanks.

Now, I would be open to the rule that if you don't get your practice in, you can spend karma to upkeep. I think there are some people who are great at a skill and never practice; the best way to explain that is sheer cosmic luck. Charging people karma to retain their legendary skills while sitting around bars and drinking, without practicing, would be acceptable. But charging them karma, even though they spend their time making sure their skills don't degrade, I can't see how that's justified.

I really think that the whole idea would require way too much bookeeping though. You'd have to keep track of each skill, how close it is to degrading, the last time it was kept up... It's just not worth it. Shadowrun is just not that realistic of a system. Maybe it's unrealistic for someone to stay good without practicing, but maybe for the sake of having a cool story that doesn't involve badasses putting in long hours at the gym instead of rocking around town, we should let it go.

I'd disagree. There are some people who are natually good at something, and who maybe have a 'knack' for something and learn it quicker than others. But nobody gets to golf like Tiger Woods, or shoot like Carlos Hathcock, or sing like Pavarotti unless they're constantly practicing. Without practice their RL skill might degrade from a 7 to a 6 in a year, or even less, but they'd have an easier time re-learning when they got their nose back to the grindstone.

That said, I think this is another case where realism gets in the way of fun, and generally isn't worth it.

By the quote below you implied a karma cost for High skills.

So based on that there is some point that your skill is not High and therefor not 'charged' to upkeep it. Call it a 4, now if a person has to worry about paying upkeep for a 5 or 6 but not a 4, you better believe they would sit at a 4 on many skills and try to get non-perishable improvements for that skill.




True, however you are talking about taxing something that is already being taxed. BTW: wired reflexes is an ability not available to the 'average person' Unless you think Mr. Wageslave drops 11k just for the hell of it all the time. (Now had you said, "average Shadowrunner...")


Lastly I believe you said:

You have 'em.

This sums up my feelings pretty well. Sure, it's realistic for most skills, but it's overcomplicated and not fun.

I feel compelled to mention that olympic gymnasts are often in their low teens, and top of the line ballet dancers start being 'old' in their early twenties.

Age and expertise, even extreme expertise are not necessarily opposites, and for physically demanding jobs youth is a massive equalizer.

If it bugs you that much, pretend that those 18 year olds actually get the benefit of +3 to all physical attributes or something, and that old fogeys have lost it or somesuch...


And if you actually USE that rule I will find you and I will fong you. Hard. There will be pain involved. Lots and lots of pain.

Heh, ok, Ill come clean now.

I have a concept in my head for a 25 year old with a 7. I didn't want to think i was doing something out of this world.

...in 3rd ed, Leela had Demolitions 6 (specialised to 8 in Improvised Explosives) and Keyboard Specialisation 10 for her Performance Skill when I started her and she was only 18. Of course it was chronicled in her backstory so the GM had no issue with it.

I typically decide my character's age after I've set out a time line based on skills.

One thing I suggested many moons ago was to allow constant training to give 'free' skill points as long as the training was recent. So you permanent skill level might be four, but your constant training in that skill allows it to operate at an effective five. A combination of stuff like your lifestyle, your hobbies, your hospital stays, etc determine how much free time you have to spend on training. This also allows quick skill aquisition for certain runs. The PCs all want to parachute for a run, so they all train in parachuting and get a few levels of parachuting that they'll all forget in a few weeks unless they spend karma on it.

This also lets skills degrade after while, but only those skills that the PCs didn't spend karma on to have permanently. This way, the PCs don't feel horribly shafted by their skills 'degrading', they just need to get back into training to get to the level they were at before.

I haven't had a good fonging for years


Anyways, I was just asking opinions..
..NOT trying to force a bookkeeping nightmare on anyone - honest !!

Honestly, I think the Karma Cap takes into account the "continued training to maintain skills" rather well. What is it, when you go above the Karma cap, you start getting half Karma, or something like that? At that point though, 80 Karma, I think, your characters are likely to have a few really high skills. To me, that covers the idea of "maintanence training" rather effectively.

Karma Cap? Did i miss something in the book?

The first one is always on the House... after that: you pay.