Ok, so these manuvers in Arsenal. I admit im still sorta trying to figure them out and need a bit more clearing up. There's been a couple threads already on some but they didn't answer all my questions.

Ok, so first: Tae Kwan Do(and if i recall a couple others) have a Martial Arts ability that grants +1 when fighting against multiple opponents.

There is the 'Friends in the Melee' bonus. Say a character with this ability is fighting against two people. I guess BOTH sides get the bonus, then? My guy's two opponents would get +1 for having a friend in the melee, but since he has that ability, he'd also get +1 to his attacks? And im guessing that this bonus would be applied BEFORE a dice pool split(if he wanted to take more than one attack.)

Finishing Move. I recall this being discussed before. According to the book is says the character hits, they can use up a second attack to take the attack right there to finish off the opponent. By the sound of this, you NEED to have two initative passes minimum to even bother taking this attack. Is this the case? Or is there something more here that im not seeing? I know that to 'activate' this combo you need to have a successful first attack, but im kinda unclear about the initative pass part. Now, someone without this ability, if they wanted to split their dice pool, could attack an opponent twice in a row in one pass. But im assuming you get your full DP for both of these attacks too.

Riposte. This has been discussed before too. If you successfully block or parry, you can take a counterattack. Does this require a second pass available? Or if you are lucky and parry 3 people in a row, can you Riposte each one of them? This sounds like a really nasty manuver if you have the skill and Reaction to back it up. Also, if i'm on Full Defense(Reaction + my Gymnastics Dodge + my Unarmed skill)...can Riposte still 'trigger' or is it on Normal Defense only? Im GUESSING it's the latter but im not sure.

Watchful Guard. Ok, so i don't take penalties until a 3rd attack comes my way, im assuming in that same phase. So someone pops me with 2 bullets i just roll Reaction as normal in an attempt to dodge(if im not on full defense), and then Body/Armor as appropriate, but i take no minuses to these, it looks like. A 3rd person decides to shoot and i guess THEN the negative modifers come in.

Set Up: Ok, Im unsure when the net hits to setup run out, if they do. Again, do i need to have 2 initative passes for this? (Fake the first attack and when attack 2 comes let em have it). For the Set Up attack, is it resolved normally (I attack, they roll their defense, but since it's a fake, not Body or Armor?), then the net hits from THAT get added onto my next attack?

Im still trying to totally wrap my head around exactly how these things work. Honestly, we havn't had a hell of a lot of combat so far in SR4, and we havn't used Arsenal live yet.

yeah, both sides get thier bonus. only skill modifier are added to dicepools before splitting them, i think this counts as a dice pool modifier.



good questions. if it were up to me you'd need two IPs to use them (unless you were using riposte before your first action).



this one just says 'your next attack against this target'. and yeah, no damage so no damage resistance test.

It doesn't require multiple Initiative passes, only that you haven't used your next action (by my definition, some people are wanting to borrow actions indefinatly). If you are on your last IP for the turn, then you borrow your first IP of the next turn.

I admit these things look a bit easier than they seem at first.

Ok, when it comes to ordinary old blocking, you seem to can do that however long you want. If Goon A runs up to me and tries to hit me and then runs away(lets keep Friends of Melee and Fighting Group bonuses out of this for simplicity's sake and keep it bare bones), i can block. Goon B can run up to me and do the same, and i can do the same. And if there are four goons all wanting to hit me(ok, so their strategy here is bad but again, to try to cut out modifiers), I can sit there and block all the time if I want to. Not even full defense; i can just roll my Unarmed + Reaction.

However, I don't think i'd be able to Riposte all of them...can i? The Finishing Move is pretty obvious about saying ''it uses your next action to do this''. But Riposte doesn't seem to. If Goon A runs up to me and tries to hit me(say they have lots of initative but crappier attack pools, or something), I successfully block, I Riposte, and boot him one. If goon B comes running next at me in the conga line of doom, do I get another counterattack, or can I only block these subsequent guys unless I use up my NEXT action?

If it's indeed i can keep Riposte-ing(is that a word? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ) them as they keep running down the alley for a piece, it's a DAMNED powerful manuver, especially for someone with a high Reaction and Weapon/Unarmed skill. On the OTHER hand, if you have to use up actions to use it..then it seems...well, not so great...since i could have just blocked and attacked on my next phase ANYWAY. Though i guess it has a benefit of sacrificing the next action to take the guy out NOW on Initative Score 14 rather than the, say, 11 my guy ended up going on. EDIT: It can also it seems be good for at least injuring the opponent to give them DP/Initative modifiers for when you attack them as well and for their next turn. So it's definately not bad if it uses up attacks.

Riposte uses up actions just like Finishing Move. So just borrow one at a time, and it works out fine.

We use this as a DP mod, so it applies after you split DP, which is why the bonus is nice and it actually promoted DP splitting...


It doesn't say this action needs to be from this round, or even from next round, it just says the next available one...
Also, according to RAW finishing move qualifies for finishing move, so it is an infinite loop, but this is generally regarded as silly... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Same as with Finishing move, it uses up your next available action...
Theoretically, the following could happen:
You have 1 IP, so does your opponent...
You go first, you hit him, do some damage, you're out of actions for this round...
He hits you, you block, you riposte (now you're out of actions for next round) and hit him, because you hit, you can now do a finish move and you're out of actions for the round after next round...

Pretty much yes, it's like a recoil modifier but in defense penalties...

Yup, they only roll defense, no body or armor since you're not actually hitting them, just setting them up for a better strike next time...
The bonus also only lasts for your next attack...

If the guy in our previous examle gets attacked be 4 people with 2 IPs each, you could block, riposte and finish move all of them twice, or at least, you could try, the last one will be at a -7 penalty to block (-6 with watchful guard)...
But he'd be out of actions for the next 15 rounds...

Ahh, this is all helping alot. See, i was kind of unclear about the whole 'giving up moves' thing.

It sounds like it all can be worth it if you really think you can finish off the, say, 3 opponents coming after you. That third one i get a minus to defend against but since my block pool is pretty nice, it won't be too bad.

(That reminds me: Riposte on Full Defense allowed? Im guessing no but who knows.)

And i figured the Finishing Move loop was pretty silly, so i kinda knew you couldn't pull that one off.

When we did SR4 combat before, it was pre Arsenal and all of these cool moves; and honestly it was pretty cut and dry; we pulled out a couple little tricks, but nothing about 'saving turns' and the like. They were smaller combats and none of these really had a chance to come into play. Now with all of this new stuff it's a good idea to learn. Some of these strategies seem nice (Give up yet ANOTHER attack this round or what?)

The whole 'Giving Up attacks' bit seems like it can get really powerful. Like you said, technically if you wanted to you could keep blocking/Riposte every time you get attacked, but you'd be out of actions(though I think a free action is still allowed, unsure here). So you'd have to basically go into ''Uber Defense Mode'' if you took this path. Not to mention since my character is melee-specialized, if they send 3 mooks at him after another and he takes them ALL out(giving up said, like 6-7 next turns), the other side might wise up and you know, have people hide and shoot instead...in which he wouldn't be able to act for awhile. So giving up attacks willy-nilly doesn't look like the best idea all the time. (And since full defense counts as an action, that would be out too if he were without actions awhile).

Well, will be fun to see this stuff in action anyway. Im just giddy they gave melee combatants cool stuff.

Actually, the thing with giving up actions is the defense penalty lasts until you get your next action, but since you gave up all your actions for 15 turns, you kinda fucked if you didn't take out all opponents...
Also, it seems very powerful in optimal conditions, but as soon as one of them pulls a gun, again, you're fucked...
Riposte does work with full parry and full block though...
We have never felt the need to cap the amount of actions you can 'borrow' from the coming rounds because borrowing too much is very dangerous...

Seems like figuring a good balance is the key. Ditching, say, 2 actions if you KNOW you can take out a couple of people might be ok.

My character has 2 IPs and a pretty large unarmed pool(again, that's his thing.) He goes first: smashes one guy, follows up with a finisher(with an adept with crit strike, not so bad). Done that phase. But the other guy attacks him...he's ok because he's just the second guy. The guy who attacks him had just taken a shot from someone else though, say got 3 boxes filled in. My guy's just closer. So he blocks the attack...and that might be a good time to give up another action; since he only gave up his one and his 2nd IP that time and would have been fine when everything reset. Riposte-and that's enough to finish.

Now, after THAT things could get hairy; it might just be better to block the next attack but not give up anymore actions. I guess what it boils down to is sizing up your opponents, seeing how they are attacking, and run with it from there. You know, like an actual smart fighter might do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now, if there are only, say, 3, maybe 4 guys total; maybe giving up the turns isn't a bad idea. And if you have other members on your team(usually the case, unless its a 'lets split up!' instance), you won't be pulling all the weight yourself, of course.

But wow, Riposte working with full parry and block...that's nice. Sure it's yet another action(since full defense is an action in itself) but it could save you from that...THING hitting you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Not in my games.

So if someone is using two-weapon fighting to full parry with one weapon and attack with the other, you don't allow them to riposte with the parry weapon? Or do you mean you don't allow riposte in full defense as in dodging?

No, I would not. The person has used an Action to put the majority of his concentration (with that weapon anyway) on Full Defense (not getting hit), so I would have no problems with denying Riposte in this situation.



That too! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I think that choosing to use Full Defense is choosing to put all of your energy and attention into not being hit. I don't think a character should be able to springboard attacks off the Full Defense Action.

I'd argue that with two-weapon fighting, you are not putting all your effort into defending. You've trained yourself to defend more effectively by keeping one weapon purely defensive and leaving the other to strike.

Which is where classic riposte maneuvers become most effective in real fencing in my experience, since you can open holes in your opponent's defense by parrying with your main-gauche or cloak and strike with your offensive hand.

That aside, I consider successfully defending against an attack using full parry a "successful parry". But eh, your game, your rules.

It would certainly cut down the effectiveness of a defensive build to more manageable levels I suppose.

I understand the arguments, and have quite a solid grasp on the basics of two-weapon fighting. I don't care! For my games, balance is maintained by not allowing attacks to be launched from a Full Defense position. Makes me happy.

While I can see the virtues of your point of view, we've never done it this way and it hasn't been unbalancing in any way, since the riposte isn't a free attack, you just sacrifice your next one...
It is, however, a house rule...

For now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually, apart from the 2 handed technique, it does make more sense, I might discuss this with our group next session...

I'm up in the air about the two-handed technique myself. I do understand that it should be reasonable to allow Riposte when a person is using this tactic, but in my opinion they are already gaining a huge benefit with being able to both attack and fully defend with no extra penalties, and I don't want to give them what basically amounts to a 'free shot' pretty much every single time they get swung at. I understand it isn't technically 'free', but for all intents and purposes it is, as Actions can just be borrowed until the end of combat, which comes even faster if I allow this combo.

Well it is a decent karmic investment to even attempt this stunt...
And it's only useful as long as no one starts shooting...
I think I would allow it...
Using it to any great effect would require a lot of tactics anyway...
Of course, it would get interesting if 2 people like this met... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This is part of my problem. Even though the character is in melee (and actually getting attacks in), he is still technically using Full Defense. This would apply to ranged combat as well. More bonuses!

I should chime in to underscore that while some people have made house rules that you can only borrow so many actions, that doesn't appear in the RAW. Per RAW, you can always borrow an action.

I don't see a problem with this, because you always have another action coming up -- it's not like you're generating actions for free, there is a cost, and that cost is your next action. And the only way for you to borrow an action is for very specific things to happen. It isn't like you suddenly decide to borrow a hundred actions and kill everyone. With Finishing Move, you can borrow one action to make an extra attack. With Riposte, you can potentially borrow a pisston of actions. But only as long as people keep attacking you. If you are Bruce Lee on a rampage, unlike in Bruce Lee's movies, the enemies will stop trying to punch you because you knock them out every time they try. They will pull out guns and start shooting you, at least they should. And in order to get lots of ripostes in the first place, you'd have to be one badass mofo, because you'll be suffering from enemy "friends in melee" penalties, and cumulative penalties for each attack you defend against. If you happen to have the mountain of dice it requires you to borrow 10 actions while Riposting in one round, more power to you. It's just like how if you manage to have so many dice you can shoot pistols with your eyes closed, backwards, and still get a bullseye. It isn't broken when people spend most of their BP/Karma to do something powerful. It's only broken when that thing's cost is disproportionately small to its benefit. For what it does, Riposte is very expensive -- in order to borrow a ridiculous number of actions without first getting beaten to death by multiple opponents, you need so many dice that you really deserve to go Enter the Dragon style on their asses.

I might be making this up... But since he had declared a Full Parry (in order to riposte), he would get nothing but Reaction vs Ranged combat, because you can't Full Parry a ranged weapon. If he was in Full Defense (Dodge), then he would be able to dodge both the melee and the ranged, but couldn't Riposte since he has to parry or block in order to use the maneuver.

Well, no, you're using full parry, which translates to just reaction vs ranged since melee defense doesn't help against bullets (At least until they start producing lightsabres)...
You can't use full parry vs melee and full dodge or gymnastic dodge vs ranged at the same time...
Apparently Arsenal says you can use full defense, so you can full dodge with one weapon and attack with the other...
That makes no sense at all...
I shall also discuss with our group making that full parry...
EDIT: Of course, then Nightwalker450 also makes a good point...

Along your same lines of "It doesn't say I can't borrow as many actions as I want", it doesn't say you can't use Finishing Move on a finishing move, it also doesn't say that you can't use setup as a finishing move. So anyone you get close to, you can setup Finishing Move (Setup), Finishing Move (setup), continue until your opponent has a -30 dodge penalty because each of these is a seperate attack. And your setup bonuses have stacked further and further, and you throw 40 dice againt no dodge, so might as well throw a called shot to negate the armor, and you're throwing 30 dice now resisted only by body. Some boss battle, anyone you close with and can get 2 hits in a row on you kill. You say stacking Finishing Moves is retarded, I say stacking Ripostes are just as bad. Your logical reading of it excludes your own reading when its not convenient for you.

Neither do I. I only really have a problem with the ability to launch attacks (over and above those normally granted by two-weapon technique) while using Full Defense.




Fair enough. But I still don't like it! The whole idea of devoting all of your effort into defending yourself should preclude the ability to swing away with added precision.