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Blade
post Apr 14 2008, 03:52 PM
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Hi all,

First of all : I'm not trying to start a SR3 vs SR4 flamewar. Please don't derail that thread into one.

I've seen a lot of people stating that SR4 has less "Shadows" than the previous editions because of the wireless matrix. I have to admit I don't get it.

According to the SSG in SR3 your credstick, and most of your gear, were broadcasting data. In most games I've played, nearly everyone had a cellphone, that could be tracked down to the user. All this could be avoided by using a fake identity, removing spytags or using some anonymizers.
You also had cameras/drones everywhere in the high rating neighborhoods and if you wanted to hide, you had to go to the Barrens.

In my opinion, if you replace credstick and cellphone in the above with commlink, you can replace SR3 with SR4. The only part that you'd need to change would be to remove "According to the SSG".

Is there something I missed, or is that just that people ignored that part of the SSG but won't ignore the same thing in SR4? (or any other reason)
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Shev
post Apr 14 2008, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 14 2008, 10:52 AM) *
According to the SSG in SR3 your credstick, and most of your gear, were broadcasting data. ...Is there something I missed, or is that just that people ignored that part of the SSG but won't ignore the same thing in SR4? (or any other reason)


I never used the SSG before trying out 4th.

From what I can tell, though, the difference was that if you walked through a busy downtown area using SSG rules, you wouldn't get arrested for not constantly broadcasting an identity. It was something that was attached to your credstick, so if you wanted to go into that trendy nightclub, you had to use a credstick with a fake ID on it. As opposed to 4th, which was just "if you walk downtown for 5 seconds without a fake ID, you get nabbed." Sure, walking downtown without a fake ID is a huge risk, but it could still be done. That level on anonymity available to runners made them FEEL like they were outside the system, rather than just faking being a part of it.

The comparison I like to make is this: in 3rd, you were hiding in the shadows, and the law was a bright, bright spotlight searching for you. While it could be evaded, you inevitably come under it's glare, and that's when you use your fake ID like a shield to protect you. Sure, if your face is on the wrong database, you'll get nabbed. But a smart runner keeps their face hidden when on the job. In 4th, EVERYTHING is lit up, and your fake ID isn't a shield, it's a bubble. You're under constant scrutiny, hoping your bubble doesn't bust.

Edit: There's some other issues I have with wireless that have more to do with the 80's cyberpunk setting than anything else. Not sure if you were referring to that too, though.
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Blade
post Apr 14 2008, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Shev @ Apr 14 2008, 06:28 PM) *
There's some other issues I have with wireless that have more to do with the 80's cyberpunk setting than anything else. Not sure if you were referring to that too, though.


No, that I can understand, even if I feel like 3rd ed had already less 80's into it than 2nd.
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Shev
post Apr 14 2008, 04:42 PM
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I started playing during 3rd, so I never really got a taste of 2nd. But I'm worried that the setting keeps getting "updated" as modern tech advances. It's like trying to "update" steampunk in my eyes. The appeal lies in the specifics of the setting, not in how accurately it depicts real life tech.
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Method
post Apr 14 2008, 05:08 PM
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I tend to agree with the ideas Frank put forward in his Alternate Matrix Rules.

Yes, there is this constant surveillance. Digital cameras are literally a dime a dozen and stuck every where and wireless security nodes are constantly analyzing your PAN for identification, etc etc. All that means is that data can be generated a hell of a lot faster than it can be analyzed and acted upon. Shev is correct in that it has more of a "hiding in plain site" feel, but there should be plenty of areas that don't require that level of security.
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nezumi
post Apr 14 2008, 06:05 PM
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As has been said, the idea of credsticks broadcasting was optional in-game, optional as a rule, poorly known, and generally accepted as not being the norm. It's pretty new in the SSG, and has no previous support in canon, hence the assumption is, if it's never shown up before, it must not be a commonly used feature, even if it is available. Cell phones do transmit, but that's why smart runners turn off their cell phones when not in use and rely more on pagers in general. Keep in mind, the SSG came out what, seven years into SR3s run? In general, SR3's spin was 'no one cares about you, and the SINless don't exist as far as anyone is conerned'. There were cameras on street corners, but they only watched for obvious crimes (like toting around a giant gun). There was no face recognition software, no following peoples' cell phone trail, none of that stuff, and once you entered the barrens there weren't even cameras. So the shadows were long.

SR4 has a bit more of a Big Brother spin to it - there ARE cameras, and you basically must be transmitting data when you go certain places. You're no longer a ghost in the machine, since the machine tracks you and can identify you. Rather, you make sure what the machine knows isn't anything they can use to bring you in to court (or at least that they dont' catch you in time to use it). Hence, you're not hiding in the shadows, you're trying to hide in plain sight, because unless you're a radio-frequency ghost (you're not), the computer can see you pretty easily.

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Shev
post Apr 14 2008, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 14 2008, 01:05 PM) *
As has been said, the idea of credsticks broadcasting was optional in-game, optional as a rule, poorly known, and generally accepted as not being the norm. It's pretty new in the SSG, and has no previous support in canon, hence the assumption is, if it's never shown up before, it must not be a commonly used feature, even if it is available. Cell phones do transmit, but that's why smart runners turn off their cell phones when not in use and rely more on pagers in general. Keep in mind, the SSG came out what, seven years into SR3s run? In general, SR3's spin was 'no one cares about you, and the SINless don't exist as far as anyone is conerned'. There were cameras on street corners, but they only watched for obvious crimes (like toting around a giant gun). There was no face recognition software, no following peoples' cell phone trail, none of that stuff, and once you entered the barrens there weren't even cameras. So the shadows were long.

SR4 has a bit more of a Big Brother spin to it - there ARE cameras, and you basically must be transmitting data when you go certain places. You're no longer a ghost in the machine, since the machine tracks you and can identify you. Rather, you make sure what the machine knows isn't anything they can use to bring you in to court (or at least that they dont' catch you in time to use it). Hence, you're not hiding in the shadows, you're trying to hide in plain sight, because unless you're a radio-frequency ghost (you're not), the computer can see you pretty easily.


I think that really about sums it up for me. The atmosphere of uncaring, unfeeling corps is easier to perpetuate when they're not constantly obsessing over the fact that someone walking down the street isn't broadcasting what they had for breakfast yesterday.

Cyberpunk and 1984 are two different dystopias. Both have their ups and downs, but I play SR partly because of the cyberpunk spin.
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nathanross
post Apr 14 2008, 07:07 PM
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I think Shev's view is closest to my own. There is no longer the white/black split that there was. Sure there were optional rules for RFID Credsticks (not called that, but that is what it was), but I have never used them since they dont fit my view of SR (and they weren't mandatory).

The nature of Shadowrun is that there are shadows cast by the monolithic light of the corporations, and that you can hide from the light there (as long as you dont draw it to you). There was an equilibrium between the haves (SINers) and the have nots (SINless), and for the most part they stayed in their own areas and didnt bother the other. Shadowrunners were those people who were truly free. They were usually SINless, but used their connections to live as a SINer if they wanted, or slum it like the rest. They have the skills and the ambition to be free and happy, and because of this they do the dirty work of the haves.

With the broadcasting SIN, the haves have built what amounts to an incredible wall. It is impossible to walk around as a wolf, you must don the sheeps clothing and hope you are not found out. I do not like this. I can handle gated communities, but I can not stand that all of Seattle would be gated against the barrens and SINless. There are so many of them that it should have been recognized as an impossible task and thrown in the scrap bin. I can see RFID ID in secure areas like Bellevue, but to think that the whole metroplex has this level of security is absurd.
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Ryu
post Apr 14 2008, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Apr 14 2008, 05:52 PM) *
Hi all,

First of all : I'm not trying to start a SR3 vs SR4 flamewar. Please don't derail that thread into one.

I've seen a lot of people stating that SR4 has less "Shadows" than the previous editions because of the wireless matrix. I have to admit I don't get it.

According to the SSG in SR3 your credstick, and most of your gear, were broadcasting data. In most games I've played, nearly everyone had a cellphone, that could be tracked down to the user. All this could be avoided by using a fake identity, removing spytags or using some anonymizers.
You also had cameras/drones everywhere in the high rating neighborhoods and if you wanted to hide, you had to go to the Barrens.

In my opinion, if you replace credstick and cellphone in the above with commlink, you can replace SR3 with SR4. The only part that you'd need to change would be to remove "According to the SSG".

Is there something I missed, or is that just that people ignored that part of the SSG but won't ignore the same thing in SR4? (or any other reason)


There are no less shadows in SR4 per the setting. It´s just that the rules for SIN checks make detection inevitable, because the whole integrity of your SIN is checked all the time, as opposed to some superficial scan if the data of your SIN fits your body. If you use more stable SINs, you can imagine an "information layer" to reality, where you can disguise yourself as in the real world. Only the math of RAW SR4 does not support that vision. Control of data has to be very good now - you do not know when you are checked, that is a major problem.

And I think the tech of SR should stay high-tech compared to our world, its part of the SR feeling for me (playing since 2nd).
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Method
post Apr 14 2008, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (nathanross @ Apr 14 2008, 12:07 PM) *
I can see RFID ID in secure areas like Bellevue, but to think that the whole metroplex has this level of security is absurd.


I don't recall reading any canon material that said otherwise. Page 211 of the BBB just says "certain areas" and uses the examples of airports and corp facilities. That seems pretty reasonable to me, considering that right now today you can't get past the terminal in an airport in the US without showing an ID and a ticket and lots of companies are requiring employees to wear ID badges at all times. I have a different ID badge for each of three hospitals I train at in Seattle! The idea of using a PAN and sending the info wireless is just a high tech rendition of how things already are.

Now given that, I can still choose to pay in cash or gift cards when I go to the grocery store, and refuse to give them my phone number for their MegaSavings Super Shopper Club. Many choose not to, but I can. This is the same as operating in Hidden mode outside of secure areas.

Anyway, in my game only the most secure sites would require Active PANs. You don't have to broadcast your SIN to walk through a shopping mall because, like you said, that would be stupid. I guess I can see where Blade and Shev are coming from, but if your GM is reasonable and moderate about what areas are affected by these rules you can go on assuming the rest of the SR4 world is the same as SR3. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
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nezumi
post Apr 14 2008, 08:29 PM
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They did specify there are many clubs where it's considered rude or even cause for getting the boot if you don't constantly transmit your PAN info. I'd have to guess that basically all 'public buildings' would operate the same way.

Granted, this makes sense given a time-line based off of 2008. It doesn't make so much sense in a timeline based off of 1988. And just because it's more realistic doesn't mean it's more fun. I simply don't enjoy playing SR4.
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Kyoto Kid
post Apr 14 2008, 09:00 PM
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...being one of the major proponents of "the shadows are gone in SR4" school both Shev (BTW been a while) and Nezumi hit it on the head. The SSG was a supplemental ruleset whereas in 4th ed, all the Big Brother stuff is written into the rules and setting core. A lot of the feel and flavour that originally attracted me to Shadowrun is gone with 4th ed, like Neo Anarchism, the heavy Native American influence, and the mystique that was "the shadows" are pretty much gone.

Beforehand, you went to your fixer (or appropriate supplier) and purchased the gear you needed with little or no worry. Now everything, and I mean everything (from the clothing you wear down to probably even the Frosted Soy Toasties™ you ate this morning) is laced with micro RFID transmitters all beeping their little signatures. So now after a firefight when you see that shiny Ares Alpha laying there, you have to wonder how many tags does it have and how soon will the corp sec team be knocking down your door before you can find and erase them all.

Jack a car (a staple of most runs I've been on in the past)? RFID and cameras aren't the only worry as GridGuide itself (mandatory when in the city) will give you away. There go all those wonderful tyre spinning guns blazing car chases we all loved. Heck, even driving around in your own wheels can get you in trouble if the Guide doesn't like the sound of your ID "ping".

Another thing, in previous editions unless you were a Decker or Rigger, you really didn't need much if any omputer savvy to get around. You could still buy your bag of Ork Rinds and 6 pack of Spud Lite at the corner Stuffer Shack (even with a Certified stick). You could still go see a sporting event, your favourite nuke slam band, or the experience the latest sensation at the Sim O Rama. As long as the cred on your stick was good it didn't matter unless you tried to get into some exclusive club or restaurant (of course that's where your team's Decker came in handy). And then there's the manditory Active PAN zones which have been mentioned above.

The way it is made to sound now, a runner would be hard pressed to live anywhere but in or near one of the Barrens as all of "downtown (including formerly "bohemian" neighbourhoods such as the U District, Fremont & Ballard) are supposedly considered "A" zones. Hence anything above a Squatter or Low Lifestyle is pretty much moot, otherwise you become a target for the other "have nots" in your 'hood.

One of the biggest things I have always wondered about was where a runner's matrix accounts were in 4th. Certainly not with one of the established banks as they would have pretty strict security checks and detailed monitoring of all account transactions. The Underworld? Well then there goes a portion of your balance as Organised Crime is not in the business of providing complementary banking and financial services. Next, I still wonder why would a Johnson ever perform a wireless fund tranfer to a group of runners instead of usng Certified cred (which is untraceable). Even an encrypted transaction (and currently encryption is a joke) can be compromised by a good Matrix Specialist. Likewise, why would any runner be as naive to trust an unknown person, particularly someone linked to a corp, with access to her account number and and commcode even if it is on a decoy? Eventually those funds have to be transferred somewhere safe & that could mean downloading an "unwanted guest".

I believe Shev pretty much summed up the way I see 4th in comparison to previous editions as well:
QUOTE
The comparison I like to make is this: in 3rd, you were hiding in the shadows, and the law was a bright, bright spotlight searching for you. While it could be evaded, you inevitably come under it's glare, and that's when you use your fake ID like a shield to protect you. Sure, if your face is on the wrong database, you'll get nabbed. But a smart runner keeps their face hidden when on the job. In 4th, EVERYTHING is lit up, and your fake ID isn't a shield, it's a bubble. You're under constant scrutiny, hoping your bubble doesn't bust.

...which it usually will do.
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sunnyside
post Apr 14 2008, 10:00 PM
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I think the difference in flavor with the "shadows" business is that it's harder to be a "punk" in SR4.

Back in SR 1,2 and 3 any idiot with a SMG (and any Money Haul or Kick in the Door gamer fresh from the Dungeons) could be a runner and function pretty well. I guess really what Kyoto Kid is talking about. And the runs the GM gave you were basically for your amusement. You knew if they kept the cash short or you fragged the mission you could just boost a 100,000 nuyen vehicle and fence the thing or whatever.

In SR4 the punk has a problem, and so do idiot players. You have to think about a lot more, you character has to do more and do it differently. To run in the high circles they actually have to be "pro". So it is a diffrent playstyle.

I kinda like it. Though I find it helps if you don't take it too far. Most systems aren't doing rating 5 checks on you every few minutes. Let them get by on the streets in general with rating one throwaway SINs or possibly even a stolen SIN from somewhere else. Also I let them operate somewhat similarly to SR3 so long as they stay out of A or higher zones. Which actually makes the city more interesting when you have to think about where they are.

Still I have to admit it's different. You're modern runner is a ghost in a nanopaste disguise, a fake SIN and acomlink and vehicle that like to change their comcodes.
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CanRay
post Apr 14 2008, 10:33 PM
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There's a major element here that I don't think people realize.

Information Overload. Even with heuteristic processing and fuzzy logic, you're going to have *SO* many false alarms all the time that unless the Security Agency is anal from even a Professional point of view, there's lots of wiggle room for a lot of different things!

"YOU! YOUR PAN IS NOT DISPLAYING YOUR SIN!" "Sorry, battery ran out. On my way to pick some up."

"Hello, this is GridGuide, you appear to be driving at an unsafe speed." "No I'm not. Your sensors are out of wack again." *Shows Speedo just below speed limit with hacked camera while driving at insane speed* "See?" "Oh, I'm sorry Sir."

There are going to be problems and errors left, right, and centre. They will be ignored, or easily spoken away from.

Always target the human element, and never, ever underestimate the power of human stupidity.

This message brought to you by someone that worked in Tech Support and IT, and knows just how unreliable everything in the world really is.
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Synner
post Apr 14 2008, 10:36 PM
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Just dropping in to say that several of these concerns will be addressed in upcoming books.
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CanRay
post Apr 14 2008, 10:45 PM
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QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 14 2008, 05:36 PM) *
Just dropping in to say that several of these concerns will be addressed in upcoming books.


On the plus side, YES!

On the down, you just want to sell more books, don't you? ;-P
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vladski
post Apr 14 2008, 10:47 PM
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I understand how people feel about the flavor thing in SR4. I wasn't exactly thrilled with the pervasive LAN "EVERYTHING is overlaid by the matrix all the time" feel that hte BBB tried to suggest.

So, I jsut didn't go there. Sure, matrix overlay is available in all your middle-class and upper areas. But I don't have the cops harrassing you becasue your comlink is turned off, other than in secure areas and maybe triple A neighborhoods. I look at the Matrix deal as being there to switch on if you want use it. I don't provide constant checks of ID's... only where necessary or if the story really asks for it. The Barrens and your lower class neighborhoods either aren't checking or don't have it. Sure, I have spy drones covering the streets. But, again, they arent often flying around in the Barrens or the lower class areas. Too many folks would be taking htem out, canabalizing them for parts and what not. "Oh! Another Lonestar Surveilance drone! Them's mighty fine eatin' Henry, get me my shotgun!"

And, I think much as CanRay does: Information Overload! Unless the cops are actively searching for your face becasue you recently committed a big crime, their computers aren't even gonna be searching for you. They don;t have the resources to do anything about finding you, the guy that is violating his parole by being in a bar, or escaped custody two years ago on those burglary charges.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if a GM or players don't like something as presented in the books, don't use it! Your game is your game and no one from Catalyst police is gonna come knocking on your door saying "Shadowrun Fluff Violation!" Then shock you with their stun batons and go "Please come with us."

Well, unless you aren't running your comlinks while playing. Then, by all means, they might. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Vlad
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Shev
post Apr 14 2008, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 14 2008, 06:36 PM) *
Just dropping in to say that several of these concerns will be addressed in upcoming books.


Interesting. Are you free to elaborate a bit on that?
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KarmaInferno
post Apr 14 2008, 11:49 PM
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Ford has a problem with some of their older model cars. There's a fault in the electrical system that can cause the car to go up in a ball of flame even jsut sitting in your driveway. There's been a recall out for nearly a decade now, yet less than 50% of customers with affected vehicles have come in to get it fixed. Despite the possibility of their car having a meltdown.

Somehow, I can't see the public being any more enthusiastic or motivated to incorporate a 'mandatory' public tracking system, even if not participating has negative effects. Apathy alone will cause so many "NO SIN DETECTED" alerts that the system would be unmanageable.


-karma
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Shev
post Apr 14 2008, 11:57 PM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Apr 14 2008, 07:49 PM) *
Somehow, I can't see the public being any more enthusiastic or motivated to incorporate a 'mandatory' public tracking system, even if not participating has negative effects. Apathy alone will cause so many "NO SIN DETECTED" alerts that the system would be unmanageable.


-karma


Which is one of the reasons the whole system is hard to swallow in the first place. Things worked much better when the high level paranoid monitoring was left to the high-level security areas, instead of becoming commonplace.

Another issue with a wireless Matrix is the abandoning of fiber optics. Something about digging up a length of decaying fiber optics (or hijacking a length already in use) has a much gritter, dirtier feel to it than cleanly hacking in wirelessly.
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DreadPirateKitte...
post Apr 15 2008, 12:04 AM
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QUOTE (Shev @ Apr 14 2008, 08:57 PM) *
Which is one of the reasons the whole system is hard to swallow in the first place. Things worked much better when the high level paranoid monitoring was left to the high-level security areas, instead of becoming commonplace.

Another issue with a wireless Matrix is the abandoning of fiber optics. Something about digging up a length of decaying fiber optics (or hijacking a length already in use) has a much gritter, dirtier feel to it than cleanly hacking in wirelessly.


I wouldnt be surprised if the whole world was gone totally wireless by 2025, let alone 2070. I think my suspension of disbelief is shot just trying to imagine wired internet in 2070.
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Riley37
post Apr 15 2008, 12:20 AM
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Shades of gray. If you're not broadcasting an ID at Grand Central Station in NYC, no cop has the free time to ask you what's up. If you're the only pedestrian walking down the hedge-lined street in a high-end residential suburb at 9PM, and a police cruiser drives by, sure, they glance at you, no icon appears in their AR goggle view, they're quite likely to pull over and ask who you are and if you have business in the neighborhood. Unless you look like a 60-year-old woman walking her poodle, in which case they might shrug and not bother.

Then again, a Meta Link broadcasting that you're Joe Smith, SIN 123-456-789, is cheap, and might be all it takes for you to pass the IFF test, when the tester doesn't really care. A shadowrunner CAN live in a nice neighborhood - if they're willing and able to pose as, and pass for, a middle-class citizen. Cf. "The Transporter".
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Cthulhudreams
post Apr 15 2008, 12:22 AM
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I think that the real problem is that we've all seen minority report and 1984, and whats more, now we know that it is all very possible.

So the 'future' we collectively imagine for shadowrun has less shadows, because the future we collectively imagine for the real world is going to have a 1000 megawatt eye of sauron at all times.
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WearzManySkins
post Apr 15 2008, 12:29 AM
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*evil Laugh* Come to the Ork Underground, Breeders and Pointy Eared Leaf Eaters. Down there if it can not be eaten, burned, melted, or wiped with, it has no value. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I too agree with KK and most here.

And no I really do not want to buy Yet Another Poorly Spell Checked, Massive Typoed Book to get what the BBB should have had in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

WMS
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Fortune
post Apr 15 2008, 01:13 AM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Apr 15 2008, 10:29 AM) *
And no I really do not want to buy Yet Another Poorly Spell Checked, Massive Typoed Book ...


Then don't! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
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