IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> [RL] Video footage of police using taser, HOW DO MELEE COMBAT REALISM!!!!??????!!!
nezumi
post Apr 25 2008, 04:19 PM
Post #51


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,547
Joined: 24-October 03
From: DeeCee, U.S.
Member No.: 5,760



There's a great video on the internets of some lady getting pulled over, presumably for some minor traffic violation (no signs of backup called in or anything). The cop asks her to get otu and she's jabbering on her cell phone about how she doesn't know what to do. He warns her twice more and then tazes her like three times. Funny to watch, but yeah, I suspect that was a bit excessive.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Apr 25 2008, 04:56 PM
Post #52


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



me, i would just grab the phone and hang up the call...

but then i guess that would mean reaching into a vehicle with a person you dont know the capabilities of...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DTFarstar
post Apr 25 2008, 04:59 PM
Post #53


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,269
Joined: 18-September 06
Member No.: 9,421



Well, one reason for increased Taser use and death is more people have them. 6,000 departments have picked them up in the last 7 years, so... yeah, I would think they would be used more often as cops get comfortable with them and as more cops get issued one. Also, some of those were insane, most helped along by drugs. A 5 seconds burst then a 57 second charge? 57 seconds?! I can see why he died.

Chris
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cantankerous
post Apr 25 2008, 05:12 PM
Post #54


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 404
Joined: 17-April 08
From: Vienna, Austria
Member No.: 15,905



The problem is highlighted by this too. Cops are people too folks, just like us, no smarter, no dumber, just as uninformed and opinionated and fallible. Where the rub comes in is the common misconception that tasers are safe. The cops have these misconceptions too. And unfortunately roughly 60 times just last year, just in the US, this proved not to be the case.

It has become a control device instead of relying primarily on the personal wits of the officer and authority of the office, as in the past. I just watched a video of a woman who was hand cuffed, in a Police Station already, who simply was being uncooperative who was tasered without warning and as she went down she clonked her head on the edge of one of the officers desks.

Yes, you could have the same result from the officer just shoving her or something...but it probably would NEVER have happened where he was physically assaulting her, banging her with a night stick or whatever.

That cop probably wasn't a bad guy, but he'd had a bad day and he wanted to teach her a lesson, so, since tasers are safe anyway...


THAT is the real issue. They provide an illusion of safety that REPLACES some of the thought process because it's supposed to be safe.


Isshia
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Apr 25 2008, 05:44 PM
Post #55


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 25 2008, 12:19 PM) *
There's a great video on the internets of some lady getting pulled over, presumably for some minor traffic violation (no signs of backup called in or anything). The cop asks her to get otu and she's jabbering on her cell phone about how she doesn't know what to do. He warns her twice more and then tazes her like three times. Funny to watch, but yeah, I suspect that was a bit excessive.


Her aprehension about leaving her vehicle is understandable. There have been cases of people posing as police officers (and very rarely actual police officers) pulling over women who were driving alone, ordering them out of their vehicles, and then raping them. If is not necessary for the driver to leave the vehicle in order to receive a ticket and is safer for everyone involved if the driver does not leave the vehicle given everything that can go wrong in such a situation (including the possibility of being struck by a vehicle).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Apr 25 2008, 06:13 PM
Post #56


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,349
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



Hmmmmm sounds like maybe they need to add in a switch that changes the tasers pulse from "you hit the ground now" to the old pain compliance version.


I can understand wanting a ranged attack that can gain compliance. It seems the old tasers kind of put you on a pain leash, but I imagine had a very low frequency of injury since people shouldn't uncontrollably hit the ground or have their muscles sieze up.

Having that option back would let officers gain compliance with less risk to themselves without adding in the whole "people dying" thing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wounded Ronin
post Apr 25 2008, 06:46 PM
Post #57


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,640
Joined: 6-June 04
Member No.: 6,383



As I understand it tasers have a "drive mode" which is basically a weak pain compliance mode. The ranged attack uses a stronger mode that messes with the nervous system, but the melee attack is all "drive mode" so the officer doesn't also get zapped from being in contact with the perp.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Method
post Apr 25 2008, 07:00 PM
Post #58


Street Doc
*******

Group: Admin
Posts: 3,508
Joined: 2-March 04
From: Neverwhere
Member No.: 6,114



So according to the ever-objective mass media outlet AP, out of 70,000 taser deployments in the US there were 61 deaths. Assuming you could link all those deaths directly to being tased (which is arguable), that works out to about 1 death in 1147.541 taser uses.

In the United States about 325,000 people die of sudden cardiac death every year. Thats just regular old healthy people with no known heart problems dropping dead for no apparent reason. The estimated US population (as of July 2008) is 303,824,646. That works out to about 1 death in 934.84506.

1:935 vs 1:1148... statistical significance? I don't think so.

Despite HIGHLY PUBLICIZED incidents (which are likely due simply to the increased use of tasers in the population) I don't think that the problem is inherent to tasers. Is it more dangerous than talking to the guy? Or watching TV? Or having a tea party? Yes, obviously. But the reality is that tasers are a pretty safe alternative to just about any other *use of force* which is their purpose. Whether the situation calls for force or not is a separate argument inherent to police brutality and the nature of violence in a civilized society.

Now having said that, I will say again that I can understand the logic behind the idea of "perception of saftey = greater use". In fact, I would be inclined to agree that such a phenomenon is probably occurring. But you can't continue to say tasering is inherently more dangerous than other use of force. That simply isn't supported by the research.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cantankerous
post Apr 25 2008, 07:04 PM
Post #59


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 404
Joined: 17-April 08
From: Vienna, Austria
Member No.: 15,905



QUOTE
But you can't continue to say tasering is inherently more dangerous than other use of force.


Who the heck said, or even inferred that broadly? Certainly it wasn't me. Nor did I see anyone else who went even in that general direction with what they said.


Isshia
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sunnyside
post Apr 25 2008, 07:06 PM
Post #60


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,349
Joined: 31-December 06
Member No.: 10,502



QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Apr 25 2008, 02:46 PM) *
As I understand it tasers have a "drive mode" which is basically a weak pain compliance mode. The ranged attack uses a stronger mode that messes with the nervous system, but the melee attack is all "drive mode" so the officer doesn't also get zapped from being in contact with the perp.


Yes, but what they could use is a way to dial down dart mode to hit like drive mode. Obviously with the option to flip a button in order to fire a "you go down now" burst if need be.

But it would give them another step in escalation at range.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cantankerous
post Apr 25 2008, 07:06 PM
Post #61


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 404
Joined: 17-April 08
From: Vienna, Austria
Member No.: 15,905



What was said was that it was helping to promote an ideology that was inherently dangerous. Not MORE dangerous than use of force... but dangerous none the less and endemic, because of common misconceptions that even the Police Officers using these things have TOO.

There is no "all or nothing" here. It simply becomes important to make damned sure that the guys (and women too) that are using these things ARE fully aware of the possibilities.

Isshia
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanRay
post Apr 25 2008, 07:43 PM
Post #62


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,358
Joined: 2-December 07
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Member No.: 14,465



Well, to bring this into Shadowrun, it's one of the things that police forces, and the munitions companies that supply them, strive for: The Completely Non-Lethal Weapon.

Even Narcojet has people that are allergic to it, and possible long-term side effects, who knows. Maybe getting numerous doses of Narcojet causes Narcolepsy.

Didn't Dunkie leave something for either Lone Star or Knight Errant if they could come up with something?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
imperialus
post Apr 25 2008, 07:48 PM
Post #63


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,532
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Calgary, Canada
Member No.: 769



On the other side of the spectrum there is also this incident where the RCMP tazed a guy and killed him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IJqdL40lvU
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cantankerous
post Apr 25 2008, 08:16 PM
Post #64


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 404
Joined: 17-April 08
From: Vienna, Austria
Member No.: 15,905



QUOTE
Well, to bring this into Shadowrun


Sorry, my bad.

Anyway, yeah, non-lethal unless they get used when you're down... or if you have a cyber replacement heart or the like that might get interrupted. Some GMs are more vicious about such things than others. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Maybe if you go in to overload these babies will still kill ya. Especially if they are doing this much basic stun damage, they should be capable of it.

Way back in the day, in a game called Space Opera, there was a Police weapon that was essentially a net gun that fired strands of fibers that would wrap and constrict on contact. Great non lethal response...until the strands were shot in to the mouth, where the gagging reflex would cause them to constrict and swell and the very size of the goo as it "banded" would block the airways and the victim would slowly strangle to death. And this was part of the caveat with the weapon in it's use in some of the more totalitarian societies.

The point is that there is no such thing as fool proof non-lethal response.


Isshia
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanRay
post Apr 25 2008, 08:29 PM
Post #65


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,358
Joined: 2-December 07
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Member No.: 14,465



Exactly.

Found the Dunkie Comment (THANKS ANCIENT!!!)

QUOTE
In order to reduce the number of innocent bystanders who die each day as a result of security officers firing on criminals, I leave a five-pound brick of orichalcum to either Lone Star or Knight Errant, whichever first develops an inexpensive, effective, non-lethal stun technology accurate at 100 meters.


WOW! That's a nice reward!!! And, by 2070, I bet neither side has gotten it yet, either!

Ah yes, I remember this now, I even mentioned it in one of my posts on From The Shadows!

(Another blainting pimping of the From The Shadows blog.).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Apr 25 2008, 08:56 PM
Post #66


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



QUOTE (Method @ Apr 25 2008, 03:00 PM) *
So according to the ever-objective mass media outlet AP, out of 70,000 taser deployments in the US there were 61 deaths. Assuming you could link all those deaths directly to being tased (which is arguable), that works out to about 1 death in 1147.541 taser uses.

In the United States about 325,000 people die of sudden cardiac death every year. Thats just regular old healthy people with no known heart problems dropping dead for no apparent reason. The estimated US population (as of July 2008) is 303,824,646. That works out to about 1 death in 934.84506.

1:935 vs 1:1148... statistical significance? I don't think so.


You're actually using a statistical fallacy here, though you don't know it ( I hope). It is the ecological fallacy. You're assuming that a small subgroup (those who die of sudden cardiac arrest after being tased) has a makeup identical to that of the larger group (all people who die of sudden cardiac arrest). This is probably untrue as those who are most likely to die of sudden cardiac arrest (the elderly) are also the least likely to be tased. Instead, you need to look at the group of all people who died after a tasing and compare them to people in similar circumstances who have not been tased to determine if taser use was likely a contributing causal factor in their death. You might, for example, look at the number of people who have suffered from excited dementia to determine the probability of their deaths due to cardiac arrest and compare that the the probability of their deaths due to cardiac arrest soon after being tasered.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Method
post Apr 25 2008, 09:49 PM
Post #67


Street Doc
*******

Group: Admin
Posts: 3,508
Joined: 2-March 04
From: Neverwhere
Member No.: 6,114



Actually I was trying to illustrate the relative risk without getting overly technical.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Apr 25 2008, 09:49 PM
Post #68


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



Or people were shot by the cops 5 or 6 times after they attacked them?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Apr 25 2008, 10:31 PM
Post #69


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



QUOTE (Method @ Apr 25 2008, 05:49 PM) *
Actually I was trying to illustrate the relative risk without getting overly technical.


Even so, the comparison still falls into the ecological fallacy because it does not take into account to presence of or lack of other risk factors.

The use of relative risk is that particular manner also suggests that it is likely that those who did die would have died anyway without taking into account the probability of someone who was destined to die of sudden cardiac arrest from natural causes being tased shortly before dying. While correlation does not imply causation, significant correlation does imply a common causal chain.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wounded Ronin
post Apr 26 2008, 01:31 AM
Post #70


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,640
Joined: 6-June 04
Member No.: 6,383



Happy fun youtubes of people getting OC sprayed. The first person loses it. The second person, a female, performs well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ugUXb7w9g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyhXryQrnDE
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wounded Ronin
post May 7 2008, 05:05 PM
Post #71


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,640
Joined: 6-June 04
Member No.: 6,383



So, I've been playing a lot of SWAT 4 lately, and in that game, tasing someone once makes them totally unable to shoot you for a few seconds. Is that realistic?

I'm guessing it's probably more about "game balance". The taser in the game has got to be reloaded after every shot, or after every 2 shots for the cobra taser, and the range is very limited. It's only saving grace in game terms would be that if you manage to hit someone with it successfully you will definitely take them out of action for a little while.

However, this creates some situations that made me raise my eyebrow. For example, once when I was playing my player character had this taser drawn and was crouching in an open door. A suspect with an assault rifle was in the middle of sprinting past that open door and my player character managed to catch him in mid sprint in the ribs with the taser. But, I'd suspect that in real life if someone were sprinting laterally and were tased in mid stride I'd guess that even if his legs gave out the momentum of his body moving would probably make him fall past the door and would probably rip the hooks out. Plus, as I mentioned above, I'm not positive that just because someone is being tased they wouldn't be able to pull the trigger on their assault rifle.

Does anyone with strong taser-fu have any comments?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Seraph Kast
post May 7 2008, 06:22 PM
Post #72


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 122
Joined: 27-June 06
Member No.: 8,791



I'd say it depends on the strength of the charge and whether they're "used" to pain like that. Tasers tend to cause your muscles to seize up, so you just kinda jerk around or fall down. Depending on the person it might take a couple seconds to recover from that, or they might be okay as soon as it stops.

As a side note, tasers are both the best and worst thing to issue police, IMO. On one hand, its a pretty reliable method of stopping someone without hurting them. On the other hand, they can be used as "compliance" weapons and leave no marks on the target. So if a cop wants to say, taser you eight times while you're handcuffed on the ground, he can, and unless its on tape, there's really no way for you to do anything about it. The potential for abuse is just too high for my tastes, especially given the numbers of cops that are less than kind (not a majority or even close to one, but there's definitely a pretty decent number, especially in larger cities).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wounded Ronin
post May 7 2008, 07:04 PM
Post #73


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,640
Joined: 6-June 04
Member No.: 6,383



QUOTE (Seraph Kast @ May 7 2008, 02:22 PM) *
I'd say it depends on the strength of the charge and whether they're "used" to pain like that. Tasers tend to cause your muscles to seize up, so you just kinda jerk around or fall down. Depending on the person it might take a couple seconds to recover from that, or they might be okay as soon as it stops.

As a side note, tasers are both the best and worst thing to issue police, IMO. On one hand, its a pretty reliable method of stopping someone without hurting them. On the other hand, they can be used as "compliance" weapons and leave no marks on the target. So if a cop wants to say, taser you eight times while you're handcuffed on the ground, he can, and unless its on tape, there's really no way for you to do anything about it. The potential for abuse is just too high for my tastes, especially given the numbers of cops that are less than kind (not a majority or even close to one, but there's definitely a pretty decent number, especially in larger cities).



I thought that tasers leave tiny burn marks on the skin where contact is made?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post May 7 2008, 09:47 PM
Post #74


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



only if they pump enough juice into the target to cook skin...

and at that point, i think burn marks would be the targets least worry...

btw, there was a test performed on some national geographic show there a guy managed to remove the taser connectors while under its effect.

yes he fell down, but was back up in seconds ones he had them removed. mind you, this was a person that appeared to have been training martial arts and mind over body techniques for some time and i only happened to check the channel right before they where to perform the test.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wounded Ronin
post May 7 2008, 09:52 PM
Post #75


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,640
Joined: 6-June 04
Member No.: 6,383



QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 7 2008, 04:47 PM) *
yes he fell down, but was back up in seconds ones he had them removed. mind you, this was a person that appeared to have been training martial arts and mind over body techniques for some time and i only happened to check the channel right before they where to perform the test.


Still, the whole appeal of tasers was their supposed ability to incapacitate determined, goal-orientated individuals, so the fact that someone could do that kind of makes them seem less useful than they'd otherwise be.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 8th July 2025 - 10:14 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.