http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g7zlJx9u2E&eurl=
Here's the infamous video footage of some cops tasering the man who was tresspassing in the UCLA computer lab. (The person being tasered didn't produce ID when a random check was done by campus security and didn't start to leave until the police appeared. You can tell by his melodramatic squealings that he's a total egomaniac. He even brings up the Patriot Act, which has nothing to do with the right of the police to taser a tresspasser on private property after having been summoned by private security.)
What can we ascertain from this video which relates to melee combat realism for your Shadowrun game? Well, it appears that maybe tasers as written are too powerful. In the game, taser weapons usually have base S damage resisted by one half impact and furthermore add an additional +2 TN penalty to actions on top of wound mods as a special effect. However, the man in this video is tasered multiple times, but he doesn't lose consciousness, and is capable of repeatedly using his Ettiquette (UCLA student) skill with no penalty.
Maybe instead of doing base S stun damage tasers should only do base L stun damage, if we keep the extra +2 TN penalty?
EDIT: Original link and discussion here: http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45683
Full Version: [RL] Video footage of police using taser
Maybe tasers are just more powerful in the dystopian shadowrun gamesetting than the real, today ones?
You mean, after 60+ years of technology advancement, that is possible? 
I think it's possible even now. But, in some countries today it is frowned upon accidently killing even poor people with a nonlethal weapon. Bad press.
Ah, that damn "public opinion"!
People react to different injuries in different ways, and pain tolerance varies immensely. That same taser could likely drop a lot of people, too. If I had to justify this in game terms, I'd speculate that the guy had a pain tolerance edge or something like that. (Edit: I'll add a speculation that his reaction has a lot to do with the audience he's got.
He's an idiot, by the way. Dude's gotta realize that declaring over and over that you're complying, without doing anything else, is not complying. Also forgets that police are allowed to use force to get people to comply, that not all force is excessive.)
Guy I know, a prison guard, his coworkers and he got a written notice that the guy being transferred to his area was "immune to baton strikes." Not a man I'd want to tangle with.
Hey, do tasers nowadays come in significantly different levels of power?
He's an idiot, by the way. Dude's gotta realize that declaring over and over that you're complying, without doing anything else, is not complying. Also forgets that police are allowed to use force to get people to comply, that not all force is excessive.)
Guy I know, a prison guard, his coworkers and he got a written notice that the guy being transferred to his area was "immune to baton strikes." Not a man I'd want to tangle with.
Hey, do tasers nowadays come in significantly different levels of power?
Maybe he's an adept who was using Body Boost to resist the damage, but his power had the geasa of "not standing up".
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| Hey, do tasers nowadays come in significantly different levels of power? |
Yes, they make one for humans and ones for large animals like cattle. Everybody always wants to pack the ones for cows and use on people, but apparently the bovine tazer can cause humans to rip their own muscles (the newer tazers work off of forced muscle retraction, not so much pain compliance like the old ones).
...posted about witnessing someone being tased while on my way to work one morning in the Stun Baton thread a while back. Definitely intense.
Unable to locate the thread. Posssibly now archived.
Unable to locate the thread. Posssibly now archived.
yeah, tasers should do a lot less stun damage, but should impose a high penalty on all actions taken while being tazed. on the other hand, life in SR seems to be a lot less litigation-prone. it's easily possible that tasers in SR are amped up, giving taser-users a higher chance of incapacitating the target at the increased risk to the target's health.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| yeah, tasers should do a lot less stun damage, but should impose a high penalty on all actions taken while being tazed. on the other hand, life in SR seems to be a lot less litigation-prone. it's easily possible that tasers in SR are amped up, giving taser-users a higher chance of incapacitating the target at the increased risk to the target's health. |
Still though...would they be so amped up that tasing an average person 3 times (because of stun overflowing into physical) could kill or cause major injury?
probably not.
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| Maybe he's an adept who was using Body Boost to resist the damage, but his power had the geasa of "not standing up". |
Sigged, you Conan-esque barbarian from the frozen northlands. You, by example of your rugged physicality and primal determination, expose the weakness of us mere civilized men.
Ah, sigged, the highest honour achievable on DSF. I'd like to thank God, and my family for supporting me all this way, and of course the squeaky hippy kid for making me laugh delightfully at his high pitched whinning...
Here's an idea, then: for realism, a normal "taser" does only L stun, with the +2 penalty which occurs in the same combat turn as the victim has been tased. However, what with the decreasing value put on human life, and the existence of orcs and trolls, Lone Star agents often carry beef tasers, which are the "normal" tasers as written in the SR3 rules. (They really do have the capacity to make you tear your own muscles because of their high damage code and how stun overflows into physical.)
It was one of the projectile tasers, apparently it has a non-projectile "drive stun" function that just hurts like hell.
article here
article here
| QUOTE (underaneonhalo) |
| It was one of the projectile tasers, apparently it has a non-projectile "drive stun" function that just hurts like hell. article here |
My brother (former cop) says the drive stun function is at a substantially less power than the firing version, the reason being the concern that the suspect might grab the cop, which would than give them both a tase. So i guess its not suprising that the tase was strong enough to be painful, but not enough to stop the guys whining.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKgUSnJbRLI
In this video a taser seems to have hardly any effect at all on the people who are tasering each other for fun.
Is anyone here with taser knowledge able to tell me whether or not this is typical performance for a taser, or are they usually more incapacitating? Was this particular model of taser a wussy one, or something?
In this video a taser seems to have hardly any effect at all on the people who are tasering each other for fun.
Is anyone here with taser knowledge able to tell me whether or not this is typical performance for a taser, or are they usually more incapacitating? Was this particular model of taser a wussy one, or something?
I haven't read the entirety of this thread recently, but just to throw out a quick answer:
The taser in those videos is an "old fashioned" taser. It works on pain compliance, so if someone powers through the pain its no big deal.
The newer tasers work by screwing up the signal to your muscles, causing them to contract somewhere around 19 times per second if I remember right. And it hurts like hell on top of it. But that really dosen't matter because you can't do shit anyway.
They fire barbs attached to coiled wires, and can be used without the barbs to strike someone with the "shocky part" but it doesn't seem to hurt nearly as much. (I know because during training I was required to cycle through a number of cartridges, and I stuck my hand on it while reloading, it just made me jerk my hand away and my arm went numb)
My knowledge of tasers is based of off an instructor class I took a couple years ago back when I was in management of a jail. I've since gotten out of that business and don't remember much because it's not important to me anymore.
I will say that being tasered was probably the most painful thing I have ever had happen to me though....and I had it happen to me way too many times...
The taser in those videos is an "old fashioned" taser. It works on pain compliance, so if someone powers through the pain its no big deal.
The newer tasers work by screwing up the signal to your muscles, causing them to contract somewhere around 19 times per second if I remember right. And it hurts like hell on top of it. But that really dosen't matter because you can't do shit anyway.
They fire barbs attached to coiled wires, and can be used without the barbs to strike someone with the "shocky part" but it doesn't seem to hurt nearly as much. (I know because during training I was required to cycle through a number of cartridges, and I stuck my hand on it while reloading, it just made me jerk my hand away and my arm went numb)
My knowledge of tasers is based of off an instructor class I took a couple years ago back when I was in management of a jail. I've since gotten out of that business and don't remember much because it's not important to me anymore.
I will say that being tasered was probably the most painful thing I have ever had happen to me though....and I had it happen to me way too many times...
Possibly a daft question, but what can you do to defend yourself against a taser? What if you have a wire down the heel of your shoe to earth yourself? What if you have a fine wire mesh in your jacket to short between the darts / electrodes? Are there any methods of this kind that work? What areas are affected also. Does it send your whole body into spasm or would getting shot / struck in the forearm leave you able to run or grab with the other arm, etc.?
Shoot first.
Actually, conventional armor or just thick clothing is fairly effective against tasers. Remember, tasers work by the contacts pressing your skin. If you're wearing a parka, the contacts will never hit you and therefore will not harm you.
The other advantage is range. Tasers generally have extremely limited range. Just stand back. Since the taser darts are ejected usually by some sort of spring mechanism and are pretty heavy, I imagine (but can't say for certain) that it would be possible to actually dodge them too.
Actually, conventional armor or just thick clothing is fairly effective against tasers. Remember, tasers work by the contacts pressing your skin. If you're wearing a parka, the contacts will never hit you and therefore will not harm you.
The other advantage is range. Tasers generally have extremely limited range. Just stand back. Since the taser darts are ejected usually by some sort of spring mechanism and are pretty heavy, I imagine (but can't say for certain) that it would be possible to actually dodge them too.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Shoot first. Actually, conventional armor or just thick clothing is fairly effective against tasers. Remember, tasers work by the contacts pressing your skin. If you're wearing a parka, the contacts will never hit you and therefore will not harm you. The other advantage is range. Tasers generally have extremely limited range. Just stand back. Since the taser darts are ejected usually by some sort of spring mechanism and are pretty heavy, I imagine (but can't say for certain) that it would be possible to actually dodge them too. |
Clearly taser darts fly at several thousand feet per second as evidenced by the TN for your dodge test versus tasers is the same as for sniper rifles.
It seems to me that the worst thing about these "non-lethal weapons" is to lower the barrier to using force. There seems to be an accompanying mindset that no injury was inflicted therefore it is permissable to use casually. The UCLA video illustrates it quite clearly.
Nevermind that the infliction of pain to establish dominance is wrong in itself. That seems to be forgotten.
EDIT: Thank you nezumi for the pointers. I shall hope that if I ever get tazered, it is in a cold country.
Nevermind that the infliction of pain to establish dominance is wrong in itself. That seems to be forgotten.
EDIT: Thank you nezumi for the pointers. I shall hope that if I ever get tazered, it is in a cold country.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| The UCLA video illustrates it quite clearly. |
Funny, I thought it was justified because he was a snotty, ultra-liberal, California college student who apparently couldn't follow simple directions, but that could just be me. ;P
Okay, heres my understanding of current tasers:
Really thick puffy clothes can protect you, but if I remember right the tazer can complete a circuit even if it has 2 inches between it and the target.
A good example I saw off a tazer not working right was a woman they shot with one. One hit in the abdomen, the other in the fabric of her skirt. When she tried to run the skirt ridden dart would come close enough to get her, so she was hopping around and running all funny.
If you are hit in the arm only with the darts I'm pretty sure your whole body will still spasm. But one thing to note is supposedly the bigger the muscle groups between the darts the more intense the pain.
Tasers do have coiled wires that, if the shooter misses with will come zinging back at him. They aren't proppeled with springs, but with compressed air. The cartridge has the two prongs loaded up and packed in with the gas, with a kind of trap door holding it in. When you trigger the taser an electrical current allows the the doors to open.
Hope that helps.
Really thick puffy clothes can protect you, but if I remember right the tazer can complete a circuit even if it has 2 inches between it and the target.
A good example I saw off a tazer not working right was a woman they shot with one. One hit in the abdomen, the other in the fabric of her skirt. When she tried to run the skirt ridden dart would come close enough to get her, so she was hopping around and running all funny.
If you are hit in the arm only with the darts I'm pretty sure your whole body will still spasm. But one thing to note is supposedly the bigger the muscle groups between the darts the more intense the pain.
Tasers do have coiled wires that, if the shooter misses with will come zinging back at him. They aren't proppeled with springs, but with compressed air. The cartridge has the two prongs loaded up and packed in with the gas, with a kind of trap door holding it in. When you trigger the taser an electrical current allows the the doors to open.
Hope that helps.
So is the compressed air faster or slower than springs?
I wouldn't know, not having a spring loaded one to compare too.
Taser facts
This page explains a lot and a lot better than I can. Looks like it goes 160 fps.
Hope that helps.
Taser facts
This page explains a lot and a lot better than I can. Looks like it goes 160 fps.
Hope that helps.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| Clearly taser darts fly at several thousand feet per second as evidenced by the TN for your dodge test versus tasers is the same as for sniper rifles. |
With a maximum range measured in feet, I'm not sure you have to get the darts up to that high of a speed for them to hit their max range in a shorter time than someone takes to react.
Do keep in mind that people, not small ones either, DIE from multiple taserings. Here's a video from YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6nx0Cx3uMk...feature=related
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ Apr 24 2008, 02:04 PM) 
Do keep in mind that people, not small ones either, DIE from multiple taserings. Here's a video from YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6nx0Cx3uMk...feature=related
The question is how common are taser deaths when we look at available statistics on all taserings? That's the way to figure out if the taser is meaningfully likely to kill someone (fill up the stun track as well as the physical track and go into overflow). The key thing is the trend; after all, people also die from getting punched hard in the head, but it doesn't mean that punches to the head are on the whole at all likely to kill someone.
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ Apr 24 2008, 02:04 PM)
Do keep in mind that people, not small ones either, DIE from multiple taserings. Here's a video from YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6nx0Cx3uMk...feature=related
Here's the video from the CBC Newsworld report on the same incident, which has a better quality view of the incident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv6jR-9Z4mw
From what I can find, mostly studies on TASER's website, the probability of serious injury requiring hospitalization is 3 in 1000 while the probability of death is less than 1 in 1000 ( it doesn't say how much less than 1 in 1000).
Unfortunately, there has never been any control experiments on people who have heart defect, who have pacemakers, or who are under the influence of heartrate altering chemicals. Though I can't find any clear numbers, it seems that the most common cause of severe injury from tasering is falling on hard objects while the most common cause of death is probably electrical disruption of the heart.
Unfortunately, there has never been any control experiments on people who have heart defect, who have pacemakers, or who are under the influence of heartrate altering chemicals. Though I can't find any clear numbers, it seems that the most common cause of severe injury from tasering is falling on hard objects while the most common cause of death is probably electrical disruption of the heart.
I'm not sure anyone has shown an good evidence that a Taser can disrupt heart electrical activity. Particularity if you are healthily, as people with serious cardiac issues don't typically get involved in fights with cops and haven't been studied that much. However, since the typical alternative to using a Taser is having someone beat on them with a 26" long steel baton (which breaks bones along with other fun effects) and/or getting sprayed with chemical agents (which has killed people with asthma) I'd suggest that people who have serious health issues should avoid escalating their interactions with the cops to where "use of force" is what the department force continuum says the police should do next.
I think Shadowrun taser weapons operate more like this:
[img]http://www.taser.com/SiteCollectionImages/Product/LE%20Product%20Banner/xrep_banner05.jpg[/img]
http://www.taser.com/PRODUCTS/LAW/Pages/XREP.aspx
And, apperantly, have the zap turned up to "put the guy down NOW" levels. Externality may make it harder to sue for wrongful death and all. Plus SR medicine means a single shot is pretty unlikly to kill someone.
I'd give corpkid university cops a weaker version a weaker version with electrical lines staying attached for the sort of stuff we see them used for. Continual shock mode would just apply modifiers and a minimal amount of damage that doesn't stage that could slowly fill up their stun track if they roll bad.
[img]http://www.taser.com/SiteCollectionImages/Product/LE%20Product%20Banner/xrep_banner05.jpg[/img]
http://www.taser.com/PRODUCTS/LAW/Pages/XREP.aspx
And, apperantly, have the zap turned up to "put the guy down NOW" levels. Externality may make it harder to sue for wrongful death and all. Plus SR medicine means a single shot is pretty unlikly to kill someone.
I'd give corpkid university cops a weaker version a weaker version with electrical lines staying attached for the sort of stuff we see them used for. Continual shock mode would just apply modifiers and a minimal amount of damage that doesn't stage that could slowly fill up their stun track if they roll bad.
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 24 2008, 10:52 PM)
I'm not sure anyone has shown an good evidence that a Taser can disrupt heart electrical activity. Particularity if you are healthily, as people with serious cardiac issues don't typically get involved in fights with cops and haven't been studied that much. However, since the typical alternative to using a Taser is having someone beat on them with a 26" long steel baton (which breaks bones along with other fun effects) and/or getting sprayed with chemical agents (which has killed people with asthma) I'd suggest that people who have serious health issues should avoid escalating their interactions with the cops to where "use of force" is what the department force continuum says the police should do next.
Amen.
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Apr 24 2008, 09:12 PM)
The question is how common are taser deaths when we look at available statistics on all taserings? That's the way to figure out if the taser is meaningfully likely to kill someone (fill up the stun track as well as the physical track and go into overflow). The key thing is the trend; after all, people also die from getting punched hard in the head, but it doesn't mean that punches to the head are on the whole at all likely to kill someone.
Again, as someone already stated, after 60+ years of R&D, even after 10+ years of additional R&D from now, it's more than conceivable that tasers could be massively increased in power to the levels indicated and FAR beyond those.
Isshia
QUOTE (Squinky @ Apr 25 2008, 07:17 AM)
Amen.
Guys, I am going to take exception with this. The video here highlighted the problem that is now cropping up... the Police don't try to control the situation as stringently any more, they go to the Taser with less and less restraint. They don't try as hard as they did to control the situation without resorting to any violence. And people are less afraid of the Taser than they are of a whack up side the head with a police tonfa.
Yes, I would rather see a Taser than a gun in the cops hand if he's going in to a situation which might be ill defined (as MANY of the situations they have to deal with ARE), but I'd rather see them keep the bloody things holstered too until they become necessary. And THAT is something which IS happening less and less.
Isshia
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ Apr 24 2008, 09:25 PM)
And THAT is something which IS happening less and less.
So police that are trained to use tasers (which incidentally usually entails being hit by one yourself) are more likely to escalate to use of force? Are there any large scale studies that have shown this to be true? I can see the reasoning, but is there any evidence that this is the case?
I think more likely people who are reasonable and mentally sound are going to cooperate with the police and people who aren't are going to escalate to physical violence one way or the other. In the case of the later (i.e. crazy wackos), the taser is the best option.
I don't know that police are more likely to resort to "violence" with tasers.
What I would expect is that it seems like more violence since before a cop might try to engage an unruly individual in hand to hand combat to attempt to cuff them. Which probably occasionally results in a bad outcome.
Most times when I see a taser used would be just before they would have rushed someone in the past.
What I would expect is that it seems like more violence since before a cop might try to engage an unruly individual in hand to hand combat to attempt to cuff them. Which probably occasionally results in a bad outcome.
Most times when I see a taser used would be just before they would have rushed someone in the past.
Incidentally, I'm reading through the medical literature on tasers just briefly and the vast majority of studies don't find them to be all that dangerous. They have been documented to cause ventricular capture (a type of fibrillation) immediately during the shock in humans. VFs are generally regarded as a very bad sign in clinical settings like myocardial infarction, but in the case of tasers the heart corrects to normal sinus rhythm (with some tachycardia which is understandable) almost immediately after the shock. I should point out though that its probably impossible to get an accurate ECG reading while shocking someone. One study that used a full 12 lead ECG claims to have gotten good readings, and they showed no clinically significant effects on the heart.
In the few studies I found where tasers cause sudden cardiac death the investigators were using rather unrealistic conditions and very small numbers of test animals (usually pigs, which are the favorite of taser researchers apparently). In one study they used highly anesthetized pigs, placed the darts in ideal anatomical locations, shocked the pig for *40* seconds and only managed to kill one of eight pigs, and that one was found afterward to have an acidosis (probably indicating hypoxia, since its heart had seized for *40 seconds*).
Edit: Fun Fact- the first reported case of ventricular capture due to being tasered was in a 53-year-old man who had a dual-chambered pacemaker that was actively recording at the time of his tasering. He lived.
In the few studies I found where tasers cause sudden cardiac death the investigators were using rather unrealistic conditions and very small numbers of test animals (usually pigs, which are the favorite of taser researchers apparently). In one study they used highly anesthetized pigs, placed the darts in ideal anatomical locations, shocked the pig for *40* seconds and only managed to kill one of eight pigs, and that one was found afterward to have an acidosis (probably indicating hypoxia, since its heart had seized for *40 seconds*).
Edit: Fun Fact- the first reported case of ventricular capture due to being tasered was in a 53-year-old man who had a dual-chambered pacemaker that was actively recording at the time of his tasering. He lived.
How the heck did they get a good 12-lead read while the guy was getting shocked? The ones I'm used to like to produce artifact if you have an inverter going nearby or the patient's doing much moving at all... and tased people don't seem to hold still too well.
Exactly my point. Thats why I said "claims". The whole idea of using ECG to demonstrate cardiac effects of taseing is ridiculous. I'm inclined to think that the "ventricular capture" so many researchers have recorded in pigs could be entirely due to artifact. I think one of the studies I read was using echocardiograms to confirm the diagnosis, which in theory would work, except once again people don't stand still when being tased and you'd have to be damn good at echos to get a decent view during the shock.
It all seems a little sketchy to me. Besides there are some very good, very large retrospective studies looking at thousands of actual taser deployments that have shown very little chance of injury, and even then injuries from falling and freakish situations like compression fractures of the spine due to muscle spasm seem to occur more frequently than sudden cardiac death.
It all seems a little sketchy to me. Besides there are some very good, very large retrospective studies looking at thousands of actual taser deployments that have shown very little chance of injury, and even then injuries from falling and freakish situations like compression fractures of the spine due to muscle spasm seem to occur more frequently than sudden cardiac death.
IIRC, there was one guy who got incinerated by a Taser. He'd apparently poured gasoline all over himself before he decided to go fight the cops when they showed up due to his bizarre and threatening behavior.
I think this was it: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284572,00.html
I think this was it: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284572,00.html
I don't want to touch this thread with a 10 foot cattle prod (a.k.a. the more powerful Taser.)
Just on a first run through search I'm finding massive numbers of accounts of the exact type of thing I stated. 1st Google search: "tasers used more often by police"
The number of stories of the type mentioned on these pages are becoming endemic. Is this proof? Nope. Proof of the type you are demanding would be awfully hard to come by. Most of it will really be opinion...which is all that can really be rendered at this point, based on the TREND that seems to be occurring. Knowing a bit about statistics, especially politically useful ones, I know how slippery such statistics can be. This is one of the reasons that looking at trends is useful, even if they don't provide the same type of feeling of "proof" (mind you they, that is to say statistical studies, seldom do ever provide proof of anything except in their own vacuum, but they do provide the illusion of it) that statistical studies do.
Also, there are ALLOT more of these deaths than you might think.
Isshia
The number of stories of the type mentioned on these pages are becoming endemic. Is this proof? Nope. Proof of the type you are demanding would be awfully hard to come by. Most of it will really be opinion...which is all that can really be rendered at this point, based on the TREND that seems to be occurring. Knowing a bit about statistics, especially politically useful ones, I know how slippery such statistics can be. This is one of the reasons that looking at trends is useful, even if they don't provide the same type of feeling of "proof" (mind you they, that is to say statistical studies, seldom do ever provide proof of anything except in their own vacuum, but they do provide the illusion of it) that statistical studies do.
Also, there are ALLOT more of these deaths than you might think.
QUOTE
MARK SHERMAN
Associated Press
The number of people who have died in the U.S. after being shocked by police stun guns is growing rapidly, Amnesty International says in a report that catalogs 156 in the past five years.
Deaths after the use of Taser stun guns have risen from three in 2001 to 61 last year, the international human rights group said. Fourteen have died so far this year, it said, citing police and autopsy reports as well as press accounts.
The rise in deaths accompanies a marked increase in the number of U.S. law enforcement agencies employing devices made by Taser International of Scottsdale, Ariz. About 1,000 of the nation's 18,000 police agencies used Tasers in 2001; more than 7,000 departments had them last year, according to a government study.
Police had used Tasers more than 70,000 times as of last year, Congress' Government Accountability Office said.
Amnesty urged police departments to suspend the use of Tasers pending more study. The group said there has been insufficient independent research on safety issues, an assertion the company disputes.
Taser did not immediately comment on the report. But it has called similar studies flawed because they link deaths to Taser use when there has been no such official conclusion. To the contrary, Taser has said that more than 9,000 lives have been saved because police officers have been able to use stun guns instead of bullets. Tasers deliver a 50,000-volt jolt through two barbed darts that can penetrate clothing.
The Amnesty report is the latest study that raises concerns that Taser use - intended as a nonlethal alternative to a gun - can be fatal in certain circumstances, most often when the victim is using illegal drugs.
Police officers should use Tasers "only in circumstances where potentially lethal force is justified," said William F. Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA. Schulz acknowledged that stun guns could be an effective part of a police arsenal, preferable in some cases to a nightstick or a gun.
Many of those who died were high on drugs, mentally ill or otherwise agitated. Many deaths in the past year occurred after victims were hit by Tasers at least three times and, in some cases, for prolonged periods, the report said.
In seven cases medical examiners or coroners determined that Taser use was a cause of death.
Among them:
_Timothy Mathis, 35, had amphetamines in his system when sheriff's deputies in Larimer County, Colo., shocked him between three and seven times during an altercation. Mathis went into cardiac arrest and died three weeks later. The coroner ruled the death a homicide, but the district attorney declined to press charges.
_A Taser used by a Chicago police officer caused the death of Ronald Hasse, 54, in February 2005, according to the Cook County medical examiner's office. Drug use was a contributing factor. Hasse was hit by a five-second electrical burst, followed by a 57-second charge, said Dr. Scott Denton, a deputy medical examiner.
In another 16 cases, authorities ruled that Taser use was a contributing factor in the death. In the bulk of the cases, victims died or lost consciousness soon after being shocked, but autopsies most often determined that illegal drugs were responsible or no cause of death was ascribed. Schulz said all 156 cases should be the subject of independent medical research.
Some police agencies have tightened their rules on stun-gun use following Taser-related deaths.
In Nashville, Tenn., paramedics bearing tranquilizers are called on in place of stun guns to subdue suspects who may have a drug-induced condition known as excited delirium.
The change was made after Patrick Lee, 21, was shocked up to 19 times with a Taser by police officers who found him acting strangely outside a nightclub. Lee, who had drugs in his system and an enlarged heart, died two days later.
Police officers in Las Vegas may no longer use Tasers on handcuffed prisoners and are discouraged from applying direct multiple shocks, following two deaths in 2004.
Apart from use by police, Taser said it has sold more than 115,000 devices to individuals since 1994. Stun guns are legal in 43 states, with varying restrictions, the company's Web site says. They are illegal in Hawaii, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Wisconsin and Washington, D.C., the company said.
Associated Press
The number of people who have died in the U.S. after being shocked by police stun guns is growing rapidly, Amnesty International says in a report that catalogs 156 in the past five years.
Deaths after the use of Taser stun guns have risen from three in 2001 to 61 last year, the international human rights group said. Fourteen have died so far this year, it said, citing police and autopsy reports as well as press accounts.
The rise in deaths accompanies a marked increase in the number of U.S. law enforcement agencies employing devices made by Taser International of Scottsdale, Ariz. About 1,000 of the nation's 18,000 police agencies used Tasers in 2001; more than 7,000 departments had them last year, according to a government study.
Police had used Tasers more than 70,000 times as of last year, Congress' Government Accountability Office said.
Amnesty urged police departments to suspend the use of Tasers pending more study. The group said there has been insufficient independent research on safety issues, an assertion the company disputes.
Taser did not immediately comment on the report. But it has called similar studies flawed because they link deaths to Taser use when there has been no such official conclusion. To the contrary, Taser has said that more than 9,000 lives have been saved because police officers have been able to use stun guns instead of bullets. Tasers deliver a 50,000-volt jolt through two barbed darts that can penetrate clothing.
The Amnesty report is the latest study that raises concerns that Taser use - intended as a nonlethal alternative to a gun - can be fatal in certain circumstances, most often when the victim is using illegal drugs.
Police officers should use Tasers "only in circumstances where potentially lethal force is justified," said William F. Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA. Schulz acknowledged that stun guns could be an effective part of a police arsenal, preferable in some cases to a nightstick or a gun.
Many of those who died were high on drugs, mentally ill or otherwise agitated. Many deaths in the past year occurred after victims were hit by Tasers at least three times and, in some cases, for prolonged periods, the report said.
In seven cases medical examiners or coroners determined that Taser use was a cause of death.
Among them:
_Timothy Mathis, 35, had amphetamines in his system when sheriff's deputies in Larimer County, Colo., shocked him between three and seven times during an altercation. Mathis went into cardiac arrest and died three weeks later. The coroner ruled the death a homicide, but the district attorney declined to press charges.
_A Taser used by a Chicago police officer caused the death of Ronald Hasse, 54, in February 2005, according to the Cook County medical examiner's office. Drug use was a contributing factor. Hasse was hit by a five-second electrical burst, followed by a 57-second charge, said Dr. Scott Denton, a deputy medical examiner.
In another 16 cases, authorities ruled that Taser use was a contributing factor in the death. In the bulk of the cases, victims died or lost consciousness soon after being shocked, but autopsies most often determined that illegal drugs were responsible or no cause of death was ascribed. Schulz said all 156 cases should be the subject of independent medical research.
Some police agencies have tightened their rules on stun-gun use following Taser-related deaths.
In Nashville, Tenn., paramedics bearing tranquilizers are called on in place of stun guns to subdue suspects who may have a drug-induced condition known as excited delirium.
The change was made after Patrick Lee, 21, was shocked up to 19 times with a Taser by police officers who found him acting strangely outside a nightclub. Lee, who had drugs in his system and an enlarged heart, died two days later.
Police officers in Las Vegas may no longer use Tasers on handcuffed prisoners and are discouraged from applying direct multiple shocks, following two deaths in 2004.
Apart from use by police, Taser said it has sold more than 115,000 devices to individuals since 1994. Stun guns are legal in 43 states, with varying restrictions, the company's Web site says. They are illegal in Hawaii, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Wisconsin and Washington, D.C., the company said.
Isshia
just looked at the original video, and what i find interesting is the police asking a guy that was zapped to stand up.
to me that sounds a bit counterintuitive. even more so when zapping him again for not standing up. i dont think doing that will make it any easier for him to stand...
to me that sounds a bit counterintuitive. even more so when zapping him again for not standing up. i dont think doing that will make it any easier for him to stand...
Not the smartest cops, obviously. 
One of the biggest problems with tasers - at least according to most of the literature I've read - is that many police departments are not clear about where they lie on the continuum of force for officers. Even if a given department does have tasers on their continuum, a different department may have it in a radically different zone. For instance, the Santa Barbara Police Department is generally very good about using tasers - it's equivalent on their continuum of force with 'hard control'. I.E. where the officer would otherwise be using a baton. They will use the taser if there is good reason to suspect it would be more dangerous to use hard control. The Los Angeles Police Department, on the other hand, has a very well-documented habit of using tasers as a one-step escalation from giving verbal orders. I don't mean Drive Stun mode, either. I mean, they warn you, and then they tase you. Regardless of your opinion of how suspects should be treated, this sort of force escalation is generally accepted by most police departments to be a bit severe under most circumstances.
Yeah, using the Taser when you'd use a Baton makes sense to me. At that point, you're pretty much going to have to put a hurtin' on someone, and I'm sure the Cop would rather do it at a bit of a distance.
But a "GET ON THE GROUND!" then Tase? Too quick on the draw.
But a "GET ON THE GROUND!" then Tase? Too quick on the draw.
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