It's the same reason why fencing evolved into a single-sword art. It's the reason soldiers are given only one weapon (not counting a sidearm, but then there's a reason why it's called a "sidearm"). You may have two weapons, but you still only have one brain.

...this is exactly the way the Short One has been doing it. Just remember to have a couple speedloaders ready (and get that Large Cylinder option from Arsenal).

My wife and I are playing in a game right now and she wanted to have a dual pistol wielding bartender. She said it's not for any mechanical advantage, that's just how she sees the character in her mind.

After working with her to try and build this (she's new to SR and has no clue how intricate the rules system can be) I came to the same realizations the dual wielding rules are harsh. While looking at the rules though, some thoughts came to mind.

Firstly, rules state that smartlink can not be used when firing two guns. I can understand the reason for the as being each pistol is sending a smartlink signal yet your cybereyes (or contacts or whatever) only has one processor that can handle it and only shows one targeting reticle in your vision. I did NOT, however, see any rules saying you couldn't install TWO smartlink enhancements in a particular vision item. Logic would dictate that you would now have two targeting reticles, two smartlink processors, and two smartguns. Would this be game breaking? I know there is nothing in the rules that covers it, so any ruling would be a house rule, but I'm curious as to general opinion.

Second, I found that one way to offset the penalties for firing two guns is, as mentioned, only fire each pistol once per round. I gave her 2 Predator IVs, EACH modified for BF mode using rules in Arsenal. Couple that with an internal gasvent 2 and a smartlink and you can BF with each pistol once per round at your full dice pool... NO recoil mods ever. If you're willing to do it this way, you go from being beyond mediocre to being down-right nasty in combat.

Thrid, if she takes some martial arts and has her pistols hardened for melee, she could take the two weapon fighting trick and dedicate on to Full Parry while still shooting in melee. Also, riposte does not state that the return attack MUST be made as a melee attack. This is usually assumed because it is often used in melee combat, but if she has both pistols, uses riposte, she should be able to SHOOT the person she riposted against, am I correct in this?

I could see a corp developing a SPU that uses the processing power of an Attention Co-Processor to make a pair of smartguns work together. (Probably Ares since they developed the gunkata Firefight Martial Art.)

Might make the good basis for a run (steal the designs) or a one-time-only reward for a mission.

Shouldn't you be busy with, say, work or something? Instead of jumping part of my reply because I had to spend time looking something up? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



We may not be born that way but with an Eyeband, Encephalon and an Attention Coprocessor (especially something like what paws is mentioning, something developed by a corp specifically for greater integration with smart-link systems) and perhaps a Math SPU for good measure, a runner could get closer.

Snooze, you lose, my man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Besides, work is mind-numbingly dull today. (Last day of the month is supposed to be a big business day... not this time.)



Totally forgot about the Eyeband, but yeah, that's even better. This is starting to sound like a cyberware package... except it'd probably be so niche that no corp would bother producing it.

-paws

That's what street docs and crazy biomed techs are for, especially bitter, disillusioned ones who got booted from a big corp for pursuing research releting to a niche product deigned unsellable by the corp. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just think, it could be the first cyberware package reponsible for elective corpus callosotomy surgery.

Also, never underestimate the fubared things corps will be willing to do to their cybermancy "subjects"...

Unless I'm misreading this somehow, the dual pistol gunslinger adept is going to be an npc, right?

Why not just have him take a couple initiations and boost his magic based gun skills to high enough levels that the split dice pools don't suck?

Good question!

Its part of a Shadowrun Missions adventure. I'd like my players to be able to take these characters to another SRM game, if they chose to. To me, that means I ought to run these missions "by the book," so to speak. So, no tweaking the NPCs just for the sake of tweaking the NPCs.

He already has Pistols 6 with Improved Ability (Pistols) 3. So, his advancement options are limited. He could hard-max his Agility (currently a 6), buy Improved Agility (2-3 levels), buy Improved Ability, or buy Improved Attribute (Agility).

I was hoping to do better than 2-4 dice per shot (that's not even factoring in recoil on the simple action, BTW). I was looking for 5 DP, really.

No improvement is really needed to the character. The PCs are Shadown00bs. If they do decide to fight this guy, they'll get creamed if he's any better than he is.

I guess what really bothered me is that this guy - who, by all reckoning, is a world-class shooter - has an insane chance to glitch if he starts splitting his pool. Heck, the critical glitch on 7 dice was bad enough... imagine with 3 dice! He'll be doing more damage to his own people than the enemies!

Oh well, I guess running him like I imagine him fighting will result in fewer PC deaths... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-paws

Just an idea if you've got a low DP just lessen the effect of the critical glitch not massivly or all the time as other wise some one with a monowhip would not make sense but to should be fair-ish but i does,nt have to be a hit him self with stuff thing he coul hit a beam that will fall in 2 combat turns or something pertenshally fatal now reason to have the master shooter kill himself in a gun fight.

I think he could also take specility Semi-automatics for +2 to both hand dicepools.

No it's the same context - you were stating that the GM can do whatever he likes concerning the rules (including ignoring them), and I said that it is often a bad idea, especially if you have different rules for NPCs in order to allow them to do cinematic things the PCs can't. My excaggeration was meant to emphasize that.

To the OP: I think you're best off with the dual wielding adept firing one weapon at a time. Uzz, the gunslinger in my old game used to carry two predators with different kinds of ammo and used the one he needed. The advantage in dual wielding here is the fact you don't have to quickdraw another gun.

The ambidexterity quality is a must of course.

According to canon, you cannot put gas-vents on pistols. Even with the burst-fire modification, the Predator is still considered to have a pistol frame.

Yep, although his current Agility is actually only 5.



Nope! That Power is already at its maximum, even if he improves his Pistols skill.



In what? He already has Improved Ability in Pistols at the highest level.



Yep.

Or just sacrifice a point of Magic and get Muscle Toner at the maximum rating usable by him (probably 4), or better yet, level 3 Toner and a Suprathyroid Gland.

Incidentally, I have always been quite happy with my dual-wielding SR4 elven Adept, even under harsh GMs. I guess mileage does vary.

I don't know about you, but I prefer to keep myself to the same rules I keep my players. It's a game with multiple participants and it should be treated like such, not a story with only a single participant furthering it, which means there needs to be a certain sense of fairness.

Not to be flipant but have you considered dual weilding MGL-6's w/ airburst links?

-NR

If you want to see how far a two-gun dude might go... here's my crazy attempt at pushing the envelope a while back... http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...20616&st=50

just scroll down a bit for a long post with a char sheet....

Erm... Yeah. That's what I get for hastily posting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

I meant... He could buy Improved Agility (which he doesn't have), hard max his natural Agility (currently 5, as you correctly pointed out), or both. He could also have Aptitude: Pistols and Exceptional Attribute: Agility. Those must have been what I was thinking of originally.

But anyway, it really doesn't matter because I'm not planning on making such sweeping changes to a SRM NPC.

Of course not. It's merely hypothetical.

On a serious note though, look at things this way. Average Shooting Dude has a normal dice pool of 6 [8 with Smartlink or specialization / 10 with both]. If he were to dual wield, he would really suck. But Missions-NPC dude, with his split pool of 7 (plus specialization if applicable) is still pretty much on a par with the normal pool of Average Shooting Dude.

Don't forget Ambidextrous.

For a "natural" adept without muscle toner, a good buy is Agility Boost: 1. It only costs 0.25 points, will (assuming a Magic of 5) usually give you 2 points of Agility, and the Drain is easy to soak.

As far as the dual-wielding, I would do like others have suggested, and have him fire from alternate guns with his full dice pool rather than firing both simultaneously, except when he runs into that rare optimal situation where 6-8 dice would be enough. If it's the face, hacker, and support mage huddled against the wall, then firing both guns simultaneously against their low defensive pools might be a good tactic. Just be sure not to use OOC knowledge - if the face looks athletic, the NPC might not know he is bad at dodging, for example.

Nothing says you cannot split the pools unequally.

One possible tactic is to use a hammerli light pistol in one hand a real gun in the other hand. Then just split as few dice as possible off to the hammerli so as to avoid glitching and make sure you have recoil compensation. The fairly ineffectual hammerli shots still inflict dodge penalties.

So say, 2 dice from the spec which applies equally to both guns, 2 dice split into the skill, find 2 more dicepool mods somewhere, not a bad contender (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Unlikely to glitch, trades even by the second shot, first shot is one dice down.

In game I let you dual wield red dot sights for another +1 dice mod to help make this slightly more effective.

This? Doesn't that make even less sense than a laser sight or a smart link (both of which in my opinion should apply).

Yeah, in my opinion, if one of those applies, then they all would grant their bonus.

@ Fortune: The RAW kind of contradicts itself what with Gas Vents being found on shotguns in Arsenal (at least that's what the preview said). I just rule that you can put a Gas Vent on anything, you just can't have it on a weapon with a Silencer or Supressor, which is not totally RAW since the mod rules from Arsenal seem to allow people to do just that.