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paws2sky
So, reading through some of the SRM Denver adventures, I found an NPC who's basically a gunslinger adept. That piqued my interest enough to re-read the two-weapons rules.

The NPC in question has Ambidexterity, Agility 5, and Pistols 6(9). So, a hefty 14 DP for shooting. Not hard-maxed, but pretty close. FWIW, he also has smartlink contacts and a pair of smarted sliverguns, though that bonus doesn't apply to two-weapon fighting.

Example 1:
If he's firing a single shot with one gun, he has 16 dice. Throwing in a couple modifiers for -4 DP, he still has 12 dice for his attack. That's quite respectable.

Example 2:
If he's firing a single shot from each gun, he splits his dice pool. Let's say 7 dice for each shot. Throwing in that same -4 DP, he has 3 dice for each shot? That's lousy.

Example 3:
If he's firing a single shot from each gun, but this time he's trying to shoot at two different targets. He splits his dice pool. Let's say 8 and 6 dice. Throwing in that same -4 DP, plus the -2 for a second target, he has 2 dice for each shot? That's atrocious. frown.gif

Question:
Now... since we apply modifiers after the DP is split, does that mean we can use Take Aim to boost our DP for each attack? Looking at Example 2, would this raise his dice pools to 3 and 4 (applying Take Aim to only one gun)? Or would it be 4 and 4 (applying Take Aim to both guns)?

Conclusion:
Obviously, the answer is not to try to be some Hardboiled wannabe... but doesn't that kind of defeat the point of the gunslinger adept concept? I guess I tended to picture them as some crazy Wu-like action hero, instead of a careful target shooter. Oh well.


(On a humorous note: As I was working through a sample combat last night, the gunslinger critically glitched an attack with his off-hand gun, right after scoring about 5 hits on his primary gun. I was trying to figure out what might have happened... Maybe some of the flechettes ricocheted off something and struck him? Any other suggestions?)


-paws
ZenGamer
Since Shadowrun is a game that tries to mimic reality insofar as mechanics go, it is perfectly reasonable that it is so difficult to fire two weapons at once. It is almost silly to have a gunslinger adept use two weapons as this makes him mediocre at best, and this is coming from me, someone who likes adepts most as a character archetype. It is very cinematic I agree, but there are other, better ways to make an adept's combat abilities cinematic.

There is nothing two guns at once can do that a single gun can't do better because a person, even an adept, can't look in two directions at once and therefore can't aim.
MarCazm
It's hard to aim with two weapons. We have two eyes but we can't maneuver them independent from each other. Unluckily we're no chameloens. But I think the Smartlink should apply since it's some dots on the display or so.
And don't try to fire two weapons with a lot of recoil. The result will last on your edge. biggrin.gif
Nightwalker450
I'm in the process of creating the 2 gun wielding gunslinger adept.

Here's the suggestion, take 2 Ruger Super Warhawks. They're only SS, and they have the best damage for a Pistol. You can fire 1 with a simple action, and then fire the other as your second simple action. You don't split dice pools since they're not firing at the same time. Trying to fire 2 shots each from 2 SA weapons is going to be crazy difficult to be accurate.

If you want to do the gunslinger, you have to go old west biggrin.gif
paws2sky
So, from the replies so far, I guess I am calculating the modified dice pool right, huh? I was hoping I was being overly harsh. Guess not.

As a general note: I'm not emotionally invested in this character, he's just an NPC in a canned adventure that caught my eye.

@MarCazm: The rules specifically state that laser sights and smartlinks do not modify the dice pool when firing two guns. One of the first things I doubled checked...

@Nightwalker450: I did consider revolvers when I was working up these examples. The higher DV is a selling point, but the lower ammo capacity kind of hurts. I guess you could mod the cylinder to carry 8 shots (per Arsenal), but still... I don't know though, the flexibility of being able to go SA (or even BF with some guns) as needed is pretty sexy.

-paws
ZenGamer
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 30 2008, 09:40 AM) *
So, from the replies so far, I guess I am calculating the modified dice pool right, huh? I was hoping I was being overly harsh. Guess not.

As a general note: I'm not emotionally invested in this character, he's just an NPC in a canned adventure that caught my eye. I prefer a more cinematic game (I get enough 'realistic' in my real life wobble.gif).


-paws


If he's an NPC you can make him do whatever you want, even roll full dice pool for all four shots each turn. Games should be story driven, not rules driven, and it's your game. If you want a cinematic badguy that can do things the rules don't account for.... Well, it's your game.

I don't even always roll dice for NPC's if it's not directly important. For instance, the team's Hacker is an NPC since nobody played a hacker. I don't roll any dice for him, I just decide what he is and isn't able to do and explain to the players what happens.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 30 2008, 09:40 AM) *
@Nightwalker450: I did consider revolvers when I was working up these examples. The higher DV is a selling point, but the lower ammo capacity kind of hurts. I guess you could mod the cylinder to carry 8 shots (per Arsenal), but still... I don't know though, the flexibility of being able to go SA (or even BF with some guns) as needed is pretty sexy.


If you can throw 14 dice with a DV of 6, twice per round. You won't need alot of ammo. When I created mine though I wanted the fastest gun type person. So his adeptness went all towards IP's, with the remainder 1 spent on adept vision mods and Quick Draw Adept Power. Quick Draw holsters, and martial arts to provide bonuses to disarm shots, and Take Aim as free action. Basically I was creating Roland from the Dark Tower. Just had to talk the GM into allowing me to take "Quick Draw" as a specialization, provide +2 for the first Turn following a quick draw. (I always feel the specialization of Heavy Pistols or such is just too broad and muchy)
paws2sky
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 30 2008, 09:51 AM) *
If you can throw 14 dice with a DV of 6, twice per round. You won't need alot of ammo. When I created mine though I wanted the fastest gun type person. So his adeptness went all towards IP's, with the remainder 1 spent on adept vision mods and Quick Draw Adept Power. Quick Draw holsters, and martial arts to provide bonuses to disarm shots, and Take Aim as free action. Basically I was creating Roland from the Dark Tower. Just had to talk the GM into allowing me to take "Quick Draw" as a specialization, provide +2 for the first Turn following a quick draw. (I always feel the specialization of Heavy Pistols or such is just too broad and muchy)


You didn't buy any Improved Ability (Pistols)? Hmm, interesting.

And not to get too off track, but... yeah, Pistols (Heavy) is right up there with Ground Vehicles (Wheeled) in my book; seems a bit too broad of a category.

Nightwalker450
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 30 2008, 10:22 AM) *
You didn't buy any Improved Ability (Pistols)? Hmm, interesting.

And not to get too off track, but... yeah, Pistols (Heavy) is right up there with Ground Vehicles (Wheeled) in my book; seems a bit too broad of a category.


Pistols 6 + Quick Draw Spec 2 + Agility 6 = 14 dice
I don't need more dice, when if I'm shooting goons I'm dropping their dice by 2 per pass (assuming they can stand during 4 passes).
Extra Passes are pretty nice, and 4 is ridiculous coming out of chargen. Initiation will lead to Improved Ability, right now just fast biggrin.gif
paws2sky
QUOTE (ZenGamer @ Apr 30 2008, 09:49 AM) *
If he's an NPC you can make him do whatever you want, even roll full dice pool for all four shots each turn. Games should be story driven, not rules driven, and it's your game. If you want a cinematic badguy that can do things the rules don't account for.... Well, it's your game.


I suppose I could do that, but that wouldn't be particularly fair for the players, would it? And it'd be doubly unfair if I'm bothering to apply dice pool mods to what the PCs are doing.

I use the GM hand-wave regularly to keep things fun, not put the screws to the players.

-paws
Drogos
Well, with your specialty, the way I see it, you're only getting the +2 on two rolls (one for each gun) but yeah, 12 don't suck, especially with 6DV, -2 AP REGULAR rounds.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Drogos @ Apr 30 2008, 10:34 AM) *
Well, with your specialty, the way I see it, you're only getting the +2 on two rolls (one for each gun) but yeah, 12 don't suck, especially with 6DV, -2 AP REGULAR rounds.


I do it for the turn, so with 4 passes thats 8 shots. It allows him to have a crazy upper hand on people with 1 pass. Because by the time they realize he has guns out he's already dropped half a dozen people.
Drogos
And as to "it's your game do whatever" I generally agree with this sentimate, but there is one especially glaring issue in this scenario. If he is running a Mission, he actually has very little wiggle room, especially in terms of changing stats on the enemies. There is no arbitrary roll whatever for the globa campaign. One rule set to rule them all biggrin.gif
paws2sky
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 30 2008, 10:27 AM) *
Pistols 6 + Quick Draw Spec 2 + Agility 6 = 14 dice
I don't need more dice, when if I'm shooting goons I'm dropping their dice by 2 per pass (assuming they can stand during 4 passes).
Extra Passes are pretty nice, and 4 is ridiculous coming out of chargen. Initiation will lead to Improved Ability, right now just fast biggrin.gif


Good insights.

I'm still gearing up for 4th edition, so, this is all very helpful.

Adepts are the only ones that can get 4 IP at character gen, right? (Assuming you're using Availability at character creation.)
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 30 2008, 10:40 AM) *
Good insights.

I'm still gearing up for 4th edition, so, this is all very helpful.

Adepts are the only ones that can get 4 IP at character gen, right? (Assuming you're using Availability at character creation.)


Mages have the increased reflexes spells

*mutters* And hackers have something to get 4 on Matrix... (But not Technomancers!!! nyahnyah.gif)
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 30 2008, 07:31 AM) *
I'm in the process of creating the 2 gun wielding gunslinger adept.

Here's the suggestion, take 2 Ruger Super Warhawks. They're only SS, and they have the best damage for a Pistol. You can fire 1 with a simple action, and then fire the other as your second simple action. You don't split dice pools since they're not firing at the same time. Trying to fire 2 shots each from 2 SA weapons is going to be crazy difficult to be accurate.

If you want to do the gunslinger, you have to go old west biggrin.gif


Thank you very much. I hadn't even thought of that.
Sponge
I know it's not explicitly stated in the rules, but what about the Multitasking Adept power (in Street Magic)? Do you think that might affect the ability to handle 2 smartguns (or laser sights, or whatever) at once?

DS
Drogos
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 30 2008, 11:37 AM) *
I do it for the turn, so with 4 passes thats 8 shots. It allows him to have a crazy upper hand on people with 1 pass. Because by the time they realize he has guns out he's already dropped half a dozen people.


QUOTE
Quick Draw
A character may attempt to quick-draw a pistol or pistol-sized weapon and immediately fire it by expending a Quick Draw action. For the Character to successfully draw the weapon, the player must make a Pistols + Reaction (3) Test...If the test is successful, the character draws the pistol and fires in one Quick Draw Simple Action....


The way I read that is that your spec would only apply on the draw and fire action. Then the next IP you have the guns out and fire without the spec, unless you spend the two simple actions to reholster your weapons then redraw them the next, thus cutting your IPs in half. I mean, if you were to get really technical, would the spec really even apply to shooting the gun or just to drawing it? I like it with both, but I could see it being ruled to be just the one.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 30 2008, 04:37 PM) *
I do it for the turn, so with 4 passes thats 8 shots. It allows him to have a crazy upper hand on people with 1 pass. Because by the time they realize he has guns out he's already dropped half a dozen people.


Not in SR4 he hasn't. Unless he's tossing grenades... He goes first in the first pass that everyone gets, shoots twice, then they get to ventilate him in initiative order.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (ZenGamer @ Apr 30 2008, 04:49 PM) *
If he's an NPC you can make him do whatever you want, even roll full dice pool for all four shots each turn. Games should be story driven, not rules driven, and it's your game. If you want a cinematic badguy that can do things the rules don't account for.... Well, it's your game.

I don't even always roll dice for NPC's if it's not directly important. For instance, the team's Hacker is an NPC since nobody played a hacker. I don't roll any dice for him, I just decide what he is and isn't able to do and explain to the players what happens.


The GM can... that doesen't mean the GM should. The GM can also say "rocks falls, everyone dies" but then the game is over. If this is about some NPC gunslinger shooting at some other NPCs you could surely describe it as an adept rolling around and firing both guns at the same time. However, if you want that kind of cinematics in your game, why not houserule the two-weapon-wielder rules from the start and allow the players to create such characters as well? Is it less cinematic if the hero goes TWW than the bad guy?

Personally I think two-weapon wielding is kind of silly and belongs in movies and Max Payne, and I like the SR rules. The PCs can still go dual-wielder but they know it is a rather stupid way to fight, used only by fresh runners having seen too many simflicks. Thus if you DO intruduce the TWW gun bunny the PCs might as well go "look at that noob" as well as be awed.
ZenGamer
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 30 2008, 10:34 AM) *
I suppose I could do that, but that wouldn't be particularly fair for the players, would it? And it'd be doubly unfair if I'm bothering to apply dice pool mods to what the PCs are doing.

I use the GM hand-wave regularly to keep things fun, not put the screws to the players.

-paws



QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 30 2008, 11:06 AM) *
The GM can... that doesen't mean the GM should. The GM can also say "rocks falls, everyone dies" but then the game is over.



Well that just took what I said to a level of ridiculousness - way to take something out of context.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 30 2008, 10:58 AM) *
Not in SR4 he hasn't. Unless he's tossing grenades... He goes first in the first pass that everyone gets, shoots twice, then they get to ventilate him in initiative order.


Yes this is realized. But even without Full Defense, you know what someone with 4 IP's is sporting for defense? As well as he is made to be fast, so (even though there is a lack of use, unless he tries driving), he has high reaction before the IP boost. 2 people are likely already suffering wound modifiers, and the others (assuming we went from nobody armed) are fumbling for their weapons, and might get a shot of per person. And if I felt the need to sacrifice one pass of attacks he can go into full defense and become the whirling dervish gunslinger for their one pass of attacks. Otherwise situations change, and yeah he can get put in a bad place, but anyone can.
Drogos
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 30 2008, 11:37 AM) *
I do it for the turn, so with 4 passes thats 8 shots. It allows him to have a crazy upper hand on people with 1 pass. Because by the time they realize he has guns out he's already dropped half a dozen people.


QUOTE
Quick Draw
A character may attempt to quick-draw a pistol or pistol-sized weapon and immediately fire it by expending a Quick Draw action. For the Character to successfully draw the weapon, the player must make a Pistols + Reaction (3) Test...If the test is successful, the character draws the pistol and fires in one Quick Draw Simple Action....


The way I read that is that your spec would only apply on the draw and fire action. Then the next IP you have the guns out and fire without the spec, unless you spend the two simple actions to reholster your weapons then redraw them the next, thus cutting your IPs in half. I mean, if you were to get really technical, would the spec really even apply to shooting the gun or just to drawing it? I like it with both, but I could see it being ruled to be just the one.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Drogos @ Apr 30 2008, 11:20 AM) *
The way I read that is that your spec would only apply on the draw and fire action. Then the next IP you have the guns out and fire without the spec, unless you spend the two simple actions to reholster your weapons then redraw them the next, thus cutting your IPs in half. I mean, if you were to get really technical, would the spec really even apply to shooting the gun or just to drawing it? I like it with both, but I could see it being ruled to be just the one.


Since it is quite limited from what the book recommends i.e. Heavy Pistols. I get the bonus on the draw, and the firing for 1 turn. And its taken on faith that I'm not going to be ridiculous and holster my weapons every other turn just to reactivate the bonus. Its a situational bonus, to where I can't wow them with the same trick twice. If I took Heavy Pistols then I'd get the bonus on the draw, and on every attack, and any of these bonuses would not be argued... So thats the way we've developed it, and its weaker then the book allowances so it passes the stink test. biggrin.gif
Drogos
Fair enough...could just pick revolvers and have the same effect too wink.gif

That last tidbit of knowledge were for all the others out there.
Aaron
It's the same reason why fencing evolved into a single-sword art. It's the reason soldiers are given only one weapon (not counting a sidearm, but then there's a reason why it's called a "sidearm"). You may have two weapons, but you still only have one brain.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 30 2008, 07:31 AM) *
I'm in the process of creating the 2 gun wielding gunslinger adept.

Here's the suggestion, take 2 Ruger Super Warhawks. They're only SS, and they have the best damage for a Pistol. You can fire 1 with a simple action, and then fire the other as your second simple action. You don't split dice pools since they're not firing at the same time. Trying to fire 2 shots each from 2 SA weapons is going to be crazy difficult to be accurate.

If you want to do the gunslinger, you have to go old west biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Bearclaw )
Thank you very much. I hadn't even thought of that.

...this is exactly the way the Short One has been doing it. Just remember to have a couple speedloaders ready (and get that Large Cylinder option from Arsenal).
Ciryx
My wife and I are playing in a game right now and she wanted to have a dual pistol wielding bartender. She said it's not for any mechanical advantage, that's just how she sees the character in her mind.

After working with her to try and build this (she's new to SR and has no clue how intricate the rules system can be) I came to the same realizations the dual wielding rules are harsh. While looking at the rules though, some thoughts came to mind.

Firstly, rules state that smartlink can not be used when firing two guns. I can understand the reason for the as being each pistol is sending a smartlink signal yet your cybereyes (or contacts or whatever) only has one processor that can handle it and only shows one targeting reticle in your vision. I did NOT, however, see any rules saying you couldn't install TWO smartlink enhancements in a particular vision item. Logic would dictate that you would now have two targeting reticles, two smartlink processors, and two smartguns. Would this be game breaking? I know there is nothing in the rules that covers it, so any ruling would be a house rule, but I'm curious as to general opinion.

Second, I found that one way to offset the penalties for firing two guns is, as mentioned, only fire each pistol once per round. I gave her 2 Predator IVs, EACH modified for BF mode using rules in Arsenal. Couple that with an internal gasvent 2 and a smartlink and you can BF with each pistol once per round at your full dice pool... NO recoil mods ever. If you're willing to do it this way, you go from being beyond mediocre to being down-right nasty in combat.

Thrid, if she takes some martial arts and has her pistols hardened for melee, she could take the two weapon fighting trick and dedicate on to Full Parry while still shooting in melee. Also, riposte does not state that the return attack MUST be made as a melee attack. This is usually assumed because it is often used in melee combat, but if she has both pistols, uses riposte, she should be able to SHOOT the person she riposted against, am I correct in this?
paws2sky
QUOTE (Ciryx @ Apr 30 2008, 12:11 PM) *
Firstly, rules state that smartlink can not be used when firing two guns. I can understand the reason for the as being each pistol is sending a smartlink signal yet your cybereyes (or contacts or whatever) only has one processor that can handle it and only shows one targeting reticle in your vision. I did NOT, however, see any rules saying you couldn't install TWO smartlink enhancements in a particular vision item. Logic would dictate that you would now have two targeting reticles, two smartlink processors, and two smartguns. Would this be game breaking? I know there is nothing in the rules that covers it, so any ruling would be a house rule, but I'm curious as to general opinion.


I could see a corp developing a SPU that uses the processing power of an Attention Co-Processor to make a pair of smartguns work together. (Probably Ares since they developed the gunkata Firefight Martial Art.)

Might make the good basis for a run (steal the designs) or a one-time-only reward for a mission.
Kingboy
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 30 2008, 01:53 PM) *
I could see a corp developing a SPU that uses the processing power of an Attention Co-Processor to make a pair of smartguns work together. (Probably Ares since they developed the [s]gunkata[/i] Firefight Martial Art.)

Might make the good basis for a run (steal the designs) or a one-time-only reward for a mission.



Shouldn't you be busy with, say, work or something? Instead of jumping part of my reply because I had to spend time looking something up? smile.gif

QUOTE (MarCazm @ Apr 30 2008, 10:26 AM) *
It's hard to aim with two weapons. We have two eyes but we can't maneuver them independent from each other. Unluckily we're no chameloens. But I think the Smartlink should apply since it's some dots on the display or so.


We may not be born that way but with an Eyeband, Encephalon and an Attention Coprocessor (especially something like what paws is mentioning, something developed by a corp specifically for greater integration with smart-link systems) and perhaps a Math SPU for good measure, a runner could get closer.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Kingboy @ Apr 30 2008, 01:12 PM) *
Shouldn't you be busy with, say, work or something? Instead of jumping part of my reply because I had to spend time looking something up? smile.gif


Snooze, you lose, my man. grinbig.gif Besides, work is mind-numbingly dull today. (Last day of the month is supposed to be a big business day... not this time.)

QUOTE
We may not be born that way but with an Eyeband, Encephalon and an Attention Coprocessor (especially something like what paws is mentioning, something developed by a corp specifically for greater integration with smart-link systems) and perhaps a Math SPU for good measure, a runner could get closer.


Totally forgot about the Eyeband, but yeah, that's even better. This is starting to sound like a cyberware package... except it'd probably be so niche that no corp would bother producing it.

-paws
Kingboy
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 30 2008, 02:32 PM) *
Totally forgot about the Eyeband, but yeah, that's even better. This is starting to sound like a cyberware package... except it'd probably be so niche that no corp would bother producing it.

-paws



That's what street docs and crazy biomed techs are for, especially bitter, disillusioned ones who got booted from a big corp for pursuing research releting to a niche product deigned unsellable by the corp. smile.gif

Just think, it could be the first cyberware package reponsible for elective corpus callosotomy surgery.

Also, never underestimate the fubared things corps will be willing to do to their cybermancy "subjects"...
Mickle5125
Unless I'm misreading this somehow, the dual pistol gunslinger adept is going to be an npc, right?

Why not just have him take a couple initiations and boost his magic based gun skills to high enough levels that the split dice pools don't suck?
paws2sky
QUOTE (Mickle5125 @ Apr 30 2008, 02:07 PM) *
Unless I'm misreading this somehow, the dual pistol gunslinger adept is going to be an npc, right?

Why not just have him take a couple initiations and boost his magic based gun skills to high enough levels that the split dice pools don't suck?


Good question!

Its part of a Shadowrun Missions adventure. I'd like my players to be able to take these characters to another SRM game, if they chose to. To me, that means I ought to run these missions "by the book," so to speak. So, no tweaking the NPCs just for the sake of tweaking the NPCs.

He already has Pistols 6 with Improved Ability (Pistols) 3. So, his advancement options are limited. He could hard-max his Agility (currently a 6), buy Improved Agility (2-3 levels), buy Improved Ability, or buy Improved Attribute (Agility).

I was hoping to do better than 2-4 dice per shot (that's not even factoring in recoil on the simple action, BTW). I was looking for 5 DP, really.

No improvement is really needed to the character. The PCs are Shadown00bs. If they do decide to fight this guy, they'll get creamed if he's any better than he is.

I guess what really bothered me is that this guy - who, by all reckoning, is a world-class shooter - has an insane chance to glitch if he starts splitting his pool. Heck, the critical glitch on 7 dice was bad enough... imagine with 3 dice! He'll be doing more damage to his own people than the enemies!

Oh well, I guess running him like I imagine him fighting will result in fewer PC deaths... smile.gif

-paws
Dumori
Just an idea if you've got a low DP just lessen the effect of the critical glitch not massivly or all the time as other wise some one with a monowhip would not make sense but to should be fair-ish but i does,nt have to be a hit him self with stuff thing he coul hit a beam that will fall in 2 combat turns or something pertenshally fatal now reason to have the master shooter kill himself in a gun fight.
Mäx
I think he could also take specility Semi-automatics for +2 to both hand dicepools.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (ZenGamer @ Apr 30 2008, 06:12 PM) *
Well that just took what I said to a level of ridiculousness - way to take something out of context.


No it's the same context - you were stating that the GM can do whatever he likes concerning the rules (including ignoring them), and I said that it is often a bad idea, especially if you have different rules for NPCs in order to allow them to do cinematic things the PCs can't. My excaggeration was meant to emphasize that.

To the OP: I think you're best off with the dual wielding adept firing one weapon at a time. Uzz, the gunslinger in my old game used to carry two predators with different kinds of ammo and used the one he needed. The advantage in dual wielding here is the fact you don't have to quickdraw another gun.

The ambidexterity quality is a must of course.
Fortune
QUOTE (Ciryx @ May 1 2008, 03:11 AM) *
I gave her 2 Predator IVs, EACH modified for BF mode using rules in Arsenal. Couple that with an internal gasvent 2 and a smartlink and you can BF with each pistol once per round at your full dice pool... NO recoil mods ever.


According to canon, you cannot put gas-vents on pistols. Even with the burst-fire modification, the Predator is still considered to have a pistol frame.

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 311)
Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols, SMGs, assault rifles, and machine guns.

Fortune
QUOTE (paws2sky @ May 1 2008, 05:46 AM) *
He already has Pistols 6 with Improved Ability (Pistols) 3. So, his advancement options are limited. He could hard-max his Agility (currently a 6)


Yep, although his current Agility is actually only 5.

QUOTE
...buy Improved Agility (2-3 levels)


Nope! That Power is already at its maximum, even if he improves his Pistols skill.

QUOTE
... buy Improved Ability


In what? He already has Improved Ability in Pistols at the highest level.

QUOTE
... or buy Improved Attribute (Agility).


Yep.

Or just sacrifice a point of Magic and get Muscle Toner at the maximum rating usable by him (probably 4), or better yet, level 3 Toner and a Suprathyroid Gland.

Incidentally, I have always been quite happy with my dual-wielding SR4 elven Adept, even under harsh GMs. I guess mileage does vary.
Janice
QUOTE (ZenGamer @ Apr 30 2008, 06:49 AM) *
If he's an NPC you can make him do whatever you want, even roll full dice pool for all four shots each turn. Games should be story driven, not rules driven, and it's your game.

I don't know about you, but I prefer to keep myself to the same rules I keep my players. It's a game with multiple participants and it should be treated like such, not a story with only a single participant furthering it, which means there needs to be a certain sense of fairness.
NativeRigger
Not to be flipant but have you considered dual weilding MGL-6's w/ airburst links?

-NR
Raven Bloodeyes
If you want to see how far a two-gun dude might go... here's my crazy attempt at pushing the envelope a while back... http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...20616&st=50

just scroll down a bit for a long post with a char sheet....
paws2sky
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 30 2008, 06:26 PM) *
Yep, although his current Agility is actually only 5.
Nope! That Power is already at its maximum, even if he improves his Pistols skill.
In what? He already has Improved Ability in Pistols at the highest level.
Yep.
Or just sacrifice a point of Magic and get Muscle Toner at the maximum rating usable by him (probably 4), or better yet, level 3 Toner and a Suprathyroid Gland.
Incidentally, I have always been quite happy with my dual-wielding SR4 elven Adept, even under harsh GMs. I guess mileage does vary.


Erm... Yeah. That's what I get for hastily posting. embarrassed.gif

I meant... He could buy Improved Agility (which he doesn't have), hard max his natural Agility (currently 5, as you correctly pointed out), or both. He could also have Aptitude: Pistols and Exceptional Attribute: Agility. Those must have been what I was thinking of originally.

But anyway, it really doesn't matter because I'm not planning on making such sweeping changes to a SRM NPC.
Fortune
QUOTE (paws2sky @ May 1 2008, 01:16 PM) *
But anyway, it really doesn't matter because I'm not planning on making such sweeping changes to a SRM NPC.


Of course not. It's merely hypothetical.

On a serious note though, look at things this way. Average Shooting Dude has a normal dice pool of 6 [8 with Smartlink or specialization / 10 with both]. If he were to dual wield, he would really suck. But Missions-NPC dude, with his split pool of 7 (plus specialization if applicable) is still pretty much on a par with the normal pool of Average Shooting Dude.
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 30 2008, 08:16 PM) *
Erm... Yeah. That's what I get for hastily posting. embarrassed.gif

I meant... He could buy Improved Agility (which he doesn't have), hard max his natural Agility (currently 5, as you correctly pointed out), or both. He could also have Aptitude: Pistols and Exceptional Attribute: Agility. Those must have been what I was thinking of originally.

But anyway, it really doesn't matter because I'm not planning on making such sweeping changes to a SRM NPC.


Don't forget Ambidextrous.
Glyph
For a "natural" adept without muscle toner, a good buy is Agility Boost: 1. It only costs 0.25 points, will (assuming a Magic of 5) usually give you 2 points of Agility, and the Drain is easy to soak.

As far as the dual-wielding, I would do like others have suggested, and have him fire from alternate guns with his full dice pool rather than firing both simultaneously, except when he runs into that rare optimal situation where 6-8 dice would be enough. If it's the face, hacker, and support mage huddled against the wall, then firing both guns simultaneously against their low defensive pools might be a good tactic. Just be sure not to use OOC knowledge - if the face looks athletic, the NPC might not know he is bad at dodging, for example.
Cthulhudreams
Nothing says you cannot split the pools unequally.

One possible tactic is to use a hammerli light pistol in one hand a real gun in the other hand. Then just split as few dice as possible off to the hammerli so as to avoid glitching and make sure you have recoil compensation. The fairly ineffectual hammerli shots still inflict dodge penalties.

So say, 2 dice from the spec which applies equally to both guns, 2 dice split into the skill, find 2 more dicepool mods somewhere, not a bad contender smile.gif Unlikely to glitch, trades even by the second shot, first shot is one dice down.

In game I let you dual wield red dot sights for another +1 dice mod to help make this slightly more effective.
Janice
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Apr 30 2008, 08:56 PM) *
In game I let you dual wield red dot sights for another +1 dice mod to help make this slightly more effective.

This? Doesn't that make even less sense than a laser sight or a smart link (both of which in my opinion should apply).
Fortune
Yeah, in my opinion, if one of those applies, then they all would grant their bonus.
Drogos
@ Fortune: The RAW kind of contradicts itself what with Gas Vents being found on shotguns in Arsenal (at least that's what the preview said). I just rule that you can put a Gas Vent on anything, you just can't have it on a weapon with a Silencer or Supressor, which is not totally RAW since the mod rules from Arsenal seem to allow people to do just that.
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