Thanks, Muss. Have I misunderstood Chameleon coating? I thought it was to prevent weapons from detracting from your chameleon suit and, as such, wasn't required on smaller weapons. I didn't think Chameleon coating added any concealibility to a weapon.

..I'm making the ammo unique to the weapon (as it basically already is). SR does not differentiate base DV by ammo (save for positive/negative modifiers) but by firearm size.

I am classifying the OTs-38 as a Light Pistol 4DV/0AP (80% LP ranges) and comes standard with the built in laser sight. Concealability is that of a Hold Out. As it is a double action revolver it is capable to firing two shots per IP. The OTs-38 cannot mount any accessories (barrel or top) but can be internally smartlinked. At this point I am making it incapable of using any other type of ammo other than the silenced rounds specially designed for it.

The rounds will most likely be sold in clips of 5 at 4x the cost for normal ammo (40 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per "clip" - 80 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per 10), Haven't determined the Availability or Cost for the weapon yet (need to perform a little more search fu).

Firing an OTs-38 will impart a -6 penalty to hearing perception tests.

I have also considered an MAD defeating variant (this is 2070 after all).

Well im think of mixing the brake down rules with the underbarrel mount rules to make modulated weapons. my fave bing the reactor sting that can be added to a katar (think that how you spell it) using the bayonet mount can be broken down and have key bits replaced for fire none (f) ammo and other cool things only stuff that could be done with the slots left over after personalized grip and Easy Breakdown to the modular parts maybe -1 or 2 slots for this ability. but i means that your gun can be changed for what ever you doing but dose take 6-7 rounds to take a part and reassemble with the new parts with just the bare bones bing the same you could swap personalized grip with electronic firing for a silent gun. I find this ruling very fair and not game braking as its just a way to use a underbarrel mount on your reactor sting. feedback on this idea would be nice.
Its basically a gun reactor sting easy brake down and personalized grip with 4 extra swappable slots i need a price for something like this but each mod set must be brought and be four slots or less so you could have it electronically fired and silenced or melee hardened and have bayonet mount plus a skin like plus smart system for another and any other 4 slot combo that would make sense i view the extra ammo mod a 4 slot veration of the large mod on weapon firing selection mod as you can see this variable weapon is useful but needs a lot of cash put into it to be as good as it could be. Like the mounting rules these all need GM approval tush making it balanced (in my eyes) as if its overpower you cant blame the player.
-Edit just found out its 7 slots but me as a GM wouldn't count the swapping system as a slot and if you did just drop the grip as its not needed any way really and would be much better of bing replaced with powered brake down. Also with more careful reading this is a plus 50 to each mod plus the brakedown cost to stop over uses and so they all can be hidden. I am now going to deffently use two of these on my face infiltrator.

Thanks!

Do you have a good quote for that?!? (i.e. the not removing them). When you buy them they come as a modification, and you're right you can't upgrade to an accessory, as the accessory is external and barrel mounted and would mess things up. However, with the Arsenal rules you get to directly modify the gun, and so since you're taking it apart anyway, changing out gas vents for bigger gas vents makes sense to me and doesn't seem to violate the rules. If you have a quote though, I'd love to here it...

You don't like the Whisper (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ??

The HK Urban Combat and it's smaller cousin might be good choices for off the rack guns from Arsenal, but those "can't be further modified," otherwise, Mospellsheimer got a good package going for ya (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'll have to look at the Chameleon coating rules, but I thought they did add to Concealability and didn't have a size limit.... I'll have to check...

Very well. Thanks.

Only thing I see with the above quote

are the statements in Arsenal that modifications can be added and removed. Sure you can get rid of your level 2 gas vent for a level 3 one but you'll have to remove the level 2 one with a test and/or cash then pay for and add the level 3 one. As the no remove rule is an ass if some ones slowly upgrading there weapons or something like that. That is unless the above quote is after Arsenal came out in witch case OK but ill still play by my own ruling there.

I see nothing in Arsenal that overrides the fairly blatent canon statement that a Gas-Vent, once installed into a weapon (be it as a modification or an accessory), cannot then be removed.

It's comparable to regular pressure loadings of .38 Spl. fired out of a 2 inch barrel. 148 grains @ ~680 fps for the .38 vs 143 grains @ ~650 fps for the OT-38. Definite hold out pistol penetration and range.

Yes and a fairly blatant canon statement also says pistols and shotguns can not have gas vents even though the RAW and Augmentation have examples of weapons that contradict such blatant canon statements. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Back on track, for a interesting weapon twink take a laser weapon and make it full auto and expand it battery capacity. No recoil there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

Heh, true...could explain it as a solid beam that lasts longer. Like a quarter or half second, rather than just a millisecond pulse or whatever. Or a series of pulses, which would be more in line with standard burst fire systems. Speaking of which, do you think it would/should be reasonable to take the two SA/BF pistols that have to burst as complex actions and mod them to be able to burstfire as simple actions with the minor firing selection change?

No my intent was for a more rapid firing charging system for the laser pulses. Longer Pulses are no the answer just more of them, nor are beam lasers.

Despite the Availability and Cost factor Laser weapons have a definite place in Shadowrun 4.

WMS

And those would be special exceptions, as is the Ingram Smartgun with its otherwise-restricted Integral Suppressor/Gas-Vent combo. What's your point? The rules make a concrete statement, then include a small number of specific exceptions to that statement. Outside of those noted exceptions, the main statement stands, if we are talking canon (and I was).

Canon does not contradict itself. Ip so facto what you are attempting to call "canon" is not, ie the Devs/Freelanceers can violate "Canon" on whim/intent/will.

So why get ones knickers in a twist, when someone (non Dev/Freelancer) suggests what you feel breaks the RAW when the RAW is broken repeatably by Devs/Freelancers.

You seem to be taking it as a absolute rule when in fact it is not.

WMS

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. From your other posts, you seem to be a reasonably intelligent person, so I am at a loss to understand your point of view.

- Canon states that specific classes of weapons cannot be modified to have gas-vents.
- Canon states that gas-vents, once installed in a weapon, cannot be removed.
- Canon lists some pre-created, corporate-designed weapons that fit in the aforementioned proscribed weapon classes that come as standard with gas-vents pre-installed. (note that no modification is required, as presumably the weapon is designed from the ground up with the gas-vent as integral)

There are no contradictions.

The weapon modification rules in Arsenal are not creation rules but rather exactly what they are billed as, rules for modifications and accessories. Weapon creation is outside of their scope. If the GM decides that he wants to introduce any number of weapons that deviate from the listed canon rules, that is his right. But if the rules as written are being used, then modifications to weapons are done according to the rules in Arsenal (not based on the pre-created, canon-listed, corporate-manufactured weapons), but also adhere to any relevant canon rules in the main book (and others) unless those rules are specifically superseded.

For those of you that have already read the above post, I edited it a touch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Damn, this really makes me wish I had Arsenal, seems like alot of things I've been looking for are in there...

>kicks useless small town gaming store which finally got 1 copy of street magic and 1 copy of the corrules but nothing else SR4<

Ah well, I'm too broke to buy it right now anyway.

>kicks Forbidden Kingdom, Iron Man, Pulp Fiction, and Royal Crown Review for all coming out/coming back to the theater/doing a concert in the same month as some major business expenses<

Seriously, I've got $30 to eat off of for the rest of the month.

More on topic, is there anything in arsenal about silencing multibarrel weapons like the Fubiki?

Does it still cost the same or did they decide to nod towards realism and jack the price on me?

Both, actually. If you are only trying to preserve the full bonus of a chameleon suit, you need to coat weapons larger than a pistol. Pistol size & smaller do not affect it. If you are trying to hide the weapon, regardless of if you have a suit or not, chameleon coating is a must.

hmm . . using arsenal rules . . could one indeed build a laser-gatling? O.o
incorporating the characteristic sound of laser and minigun, shooting as fast as an HMG and all that without recoil?
ok, so it would be hella expansive and use energy/ammo like nothing else and it would scream for ares or someone else to come take a look at your new toy . .
but aside from that?

I would think that the smartgun just follows the Arsenal ruling that you have to turn of the gas-vent to get the advantage of the suppressor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

I think that I lean more to Fortune's take on this: like any rule (don't park next to a fire hydrant, don't hit girls) there are exceptions (unless you're an emergency vehicle, unless she's pointing a twinked Ares Alpha at you). I think SR4 worked hard to balance out weapons, and quoting exceptions (whether they are designer's whims or careful thought is moot) doesn't then undo the rule.

I'm also having an interesting conversation offline with Reepneep about the "recoil chamber" in the Ares Alpha. Isn't that a gas vent by another name? Or can one take the Ares Alpha, with it's 2 points of recoil compensation, and then add a gas vent 3? Do the designers really want an AR that fires long bursts with absolutely no recoil problems (assuming one then puts in other mods and add ons to take RC up to 9)?

Raven: Fortune quoted it in the very next post after yours. I don't know if I'm reading that incorrectly, but that's the rule I used to try to keep balance.

I'd also argue that the Ingram is one of the few weapons that can use both silencer and gas vent, purely because otherwise you would have bought a silenced weapon initially, only to have it become noisy when Arsenal appeared. Like Fortune, I think this is an exception which doesn't remove the rule. I know this doesn't make real life sense, but I think it is there to keep the game reasonably balanced.

Damn, missed that section. Okay, let me now direct you to page 61 of Arsenal where the Sensor Softwares are located. They replace your DP (and clearsight overrides sensor tests to use Sensor + Clearsight so it doesn't matter if the dronegun possesses it) on a sensor test and, because it's using a single sensor, you should get to apply vision enhancement as a positive modifier imo. This gives a DP of 9. To detect a metahuman or drone it's a -3, so 6 (the alternative is to ignore all mods, which will give this very same result). Buy a single success to detect objects that are not trying to hide (since it only needs a single success to get the intended effect of the Sensor Software packages) and roll against hidden targets. Switching device modes is a free action and the gun does not fire itself.

This entire package is designed to free up your free action and reduce the complications in switching targets so that you can be more tactically effective through whatever means you can. It was actually the first thing I thought of for a serious gun mod package.

Bah, 12 hours of sleep on a middle speed forum is a lot of posts.

OK we are back into "How Many Angels Can Dance On the Head Of Pin" type of debate/discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Understanding my POV is not a needed merely wanted.

This is another example of the "Clueless Nature" of the Devs/Freelancers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

One method of removing a gas vent type of recoil compensation is to replace the barrel, or cut off the gas vent.

Technically by Arsenal, I can shorten the barrel ie removing the gas vent, then lengthen the barrel and on that increased length have a gas vent.

Besides the obvious method of actually cutting the barrel short, a "better" method would be to remove the old barrel with its gas vent, then install a "new" barrel with a better gas vent. Since the "new" barrel was designed with the better gas vent, it does not break your POV on canon. Replacing barrels is a fairly easy job to do even in today's weapons, Cannons, Howitzers, mobile artillery, naval artillery excepted.

WMS

*sighs* Another example of the term sensor being used in entirely different uses/mechanics by the Devs/Freelancers.

Drones/Pilots etc do not get a standard perception test. Once you add a Pilot/Drone to use the Sensor Softs on page 61, my POV is you have to use the rules for Pilot/Drone sensor detection/targeting.

But Synner has stated that there will be more information/definition on "Sensors" in a FAQ/Errata etc, in some infinite future date of release.

WMS

Shrug. I almost mentioned swapping out barrels, as I know it is pretty basic, and that would be how I rule things in my game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But I was discussing actual canon.

If we want to get technical, canon does not state that a gas-vent is built into the barrel. The rules as written specifically state that a gas-vent is built into, and takes up the barrel mount (and once installed, cannot be removed). Possibly in SR4 some part of the actual modification affects more than just the barrel, and the various gas-vent (mounting attachments or whatever?) are mutually exclusive.

I don't really know if this actually makes a difference in real life. I don't really care either.