The shotgun thread made me wonder what people have done with Arsenal? Is there a set-up of choice from the game's number crunchers?

Maybe we should set up categories:

Best bang for your buck
Biggest Boom (subcategories for each weapon type: pistols, automatics, longarms)
Big damage that you can sneak into the boardroom.
Other

You can make things with some amazing recoil reduction. Six slots lets you fit in personalized grip/eletronic firing, a gas vent 3 system, a foregrip, and leaves two extra slots. That with a shock pad as an accessory is 6 recoil reduction. For people who would want to be stationary, you could remove the foregrip and have a bipod or tripod accessory.

Heavy Pistols with Burst Fire capability sound nasty. Or even turning the Viper Slivergun into a fully automatic death machine.

Plus you could make some seriously nasty assassination/stealthy weapons. Integrated Silencer on a pistol, plus subsonic ammo is a -8 on perception rolls to hear or see it. Bigger guns it takes more slots b/c you'd have to use a Sound and a Thermal suppressor, but you could end up with something like a -6 to hear/spot a fully automatic rifle. Plus there's the fun of guns that can crawl around on the floor and self destruct or shoot people without you holding them. All sorts of fun things to do with Arsenal mods!

I'm holding off on my description until we meet "Matilda" in my current story.

This makes me think that the only good way to address weapon customization in a game... particularly with guns... is to start from that when designing the core rules/gear.

OF course, an increase in the granularity of the rules, or reducing the granularity of the mods themselves strikes me as equally necessary in most cases.


What do I mean?

take something like having a mod such as 'floating barrel'... we can make this an 'accuracy' mod. Of course, all the high end shooty rifles are generally built with this in mind (sniper rifles)... being able to add it to a sniper rifle is sort of silly. What this should allow you to do is bring a 'cheapo' hunting rifle up to sniper rifle accuracy... or at least start approaching them (more mods would be applied...) in accuracy and cost.

As is: mods are taken in a vacuum and can mostly be applied anywhere, making the 'sick' weapons even sicker... when in reality its like trying to customize your quartermillion dollar lamborghini with 'racing tires' and stiffer shocks. Stupid Gearhead, your car already has better versions of that installed from the factory. that's why its a quartermillion dollar car.

Well, there are people who tune Lamborghini...

So yea, you can make that 250k car "better" by adding new tyres. They might be a bit more expensive than the ones you put on that tuned VW Golf though.

...some mods are ridiculous though like the Flying Gun (already discussed) and silencing for revolvers (8 x the base cost of a Super Warhawk?).

Heck, the Belgian industrialist Nagant developed and marketed a silenced revolver back in 1895. Nagant along with the Russian firms of Tula and Izhevsk, were able to produce these weapons in fairly reasonable quantities for Russian military and police officers. Considering Russia's economy, these certainly could not have been anywhere near as costly (in relative terms) as a Warhawk with the silenced modification is in Arsenal.

The Russian Federation also developed and produces the highly concealable OTs-38 which is standard issue for special forces agents. Besides it's compact size (almost a hold out), the OTS also has no flash and actually loads the rounds as a clip (basically as disposable speed loader).

OTs 38 Silent Revolver

I think I may stat this little guy out.

It is a balance issue. Believe me, I have a runner with a couple silenced Warhawks; he paid the money without blinking... -well, now that ork is doubling as a bouncer and dabbling in some knee breaking business just to repay his debts-

Do not forget versatility and practicality; one runner in the same group has a modded HK-227S that breaks down, assembles very quickly and incorporates some extra recoil reduction and a low light flashlight. Easy to take anywhere, discreet and precise.

And, a quick question: heavy pistols can take underbarrel weights... can't they?

Cheers

Max

Don't see why Pistols can't take underbarrel weights. I've heard of Revolvers having them.

...but eight times the weapon's cost is a bit extreme. 2,250 can buy a lot more gun than a 6 shot revolver with a -2 to hearing perception (& hey, I love the Warhawk). Even the Large Cylinder option seems a bit pricey for getting only 2 extra rounds when compared to the cost of an extended clip. In RL There were revolvers made that had more than 6 round capacity including the aforementioned Nagant 1895 (7 rounds) and the Civil war era LeMat which had a 9 shot cylinder and a second barrel underneath that fired shot (shades of the Japanese AR with the integrated Shotgun in Arsenal).


...as long as there already isn't something occupying that mount.

The toy my character wants is an assault rifle with a reduced barrel, a heavy barrel, electronic firing, a Gas Vent III, a smartlink, a foregrip, an ammo drum, and lvl. 2 Custom Look. It's ridiculous, and will require a facility because it's over-modding, and will cost a ton, and the foregrip is redundant because my character already has a gryo-mount in his cyberarm. But once I get it, I'm going to have a replica tommy gun that shoots AR APDS rounds with very little recoil. And yes, I'll be firing from the hip. Smartlinks are for looking cool.

Well, if we're going with over-the-top weapons...some sort of HMG, plus every recoil mod you can get to stack, plus the weight reduction mod...sounds like a good start if you want to reenact the scene from Predator by hip-firing a massive gun.

Hrmm...can you add silencers and so forth to that gauss rifle?

Heavy Pistol of choice(super Warhawk)+Bayonet Mount+Melee Hardening+Extended Barrel+Weapon Focus enchantment = Gun Blades!

I'm not familiar with the weapon modding rules in Arsenal, but in the BBB Pistols can't have Underbarrel mods, only Barrel and Top-mounted mods. I don't know if the same restrictions apply in Arsenal.

DS

isn't matilda the name of a tank from the webcomic turn signs on a landraider?

Not a clue.

Matilda is a very different woman in my story.

Here's a fun one. An AVS modified for full-auto, with all the recoil comp you can cram onto it. It's the only pistol with an ammo capacity large enough to sustain full bursts. And it doesn't count as a Machine Pistol, either; otherwise, you'd have a gun that required one skill to use one second, then another skill to use the next. It also keeps the integral silencer. Finally, full-auto evens out many of the problems of flechette ammo (the AP penalty) without worsening it. Also, the AVS's stats are already modified, so it doesn't suffer the +5AP of a normal flechette round.

You can check out some fun stuff I did here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...=20387&st=0

The link to knasser's site isn't working for some reason though... if you want me to e-mail you the updated pdf, hit me up with a PM.

Sadly, knasser has taken down his site.

Is that how most people run it? I'd kinda wondered, since the Dev's seem to have implied that both Shogun and Frag grenades should use the newer rules for flechette ammo, since otherwise Flechette was better than anything else except pre-errata Ex-Ex rounds.

Synner has already stated (as I am sure Cain knows, as he was involved in that conversation) that the table in the back of Arsenal where it is supposed to list the properly updated DV for the AVS (among other weapons) is in error, and that Errata is forthcoming to fix it.

Many people have said that they'd run it that way.
Where is this "implication" you mentioned? The flechette ammo rules have been errata-ed. But the weapons that use flechette ammo have not yet, if they ever will be. It has been reported that the hardcopy 5th printing of SR4 which came out before Arsenal has those weapons errataed but hardcopy Arsenal still lists them per pre-errata stats. Also remember if it was the devs intent(which should have been clear to themselves before Arsenal came out) that flechette weapons should be errataed, then the new flechette weapons in Arsenal would not have used the old AP value at all.


Quote?

Yeah that revolver is awesome.
Just a precision though, the clips are not particular to this weapon, it's just a replacement for speedloader.
They are called moon-clips.
They are very interesting, cheaper and smaller than speedloaders.

i just picked up a Warhawk w/ Improved Cylinder, Smart Link and Ammo Select. got it loaded with 2 gel rounds, 2 Hollowpoint and 4 APDS rounds right now.

Another good one is that wildhunter rifle, with a drum clip, and Full Auto mod.

The fifth printing actually was released after the initial (PDF) release of Arsenal. The errors could not be corrected after that point due to it already being a good way through the print run.

On topic, my favorite two guns in the game are now Rugar Thunderbolt modded for SA & Gas-Vent 3 - 5 points of recoil comp, SA/BF modes, for 3 slots, leaving plenty of room for further modifications, and Barrette modded for Easy Breakdown & Ceramic/Plasteel Components (Full) - costs a shitlode, but well worth it.

Can't put gas vents on pistols. Also, making a SS weapon BF takes 4 slots, as its a "major modification".

My group does not have a problem putting gas vent on burst-fire heavy pistols. And adding SA to a BF weapon is a small modification. And I am not sure which gun it is, but I recently fired a pistol with a gas-vent type system in RL, so it is certainly possible.

And for those of you who go purely by the book on this, Personalized Grip still brings the compensation to 3 - enough if you are using short bursts.

Yeah, we never had a problem gas-venting burst fire pistols either. It takes up the slot, of course. But yeah, Personalized Grip works, as well.

And...




This is what I'm talking about.

You could also use a heavy SA pistol like the Predator to do the 'Hyperion' version.


Hmm...what would I do...

I'm more of a melee person than the guns...but if a character of mine is only going to one gun, i'd probably want to pimp it out.

Melee hardening is always nice. I mean, the a pair of SA/BF Personalized Grip Vented Melee Hardened Pistols are what you use for Firefight as far as we, and possibly many tables around the globe, are concerned.

I'd have to think about some great Melee stuff. Can't you get Personalized Grip for Melee as well? (don't have Arsenal in front of me.)

Here's one ...

Yep. It adds +1 to the user's melee Dice Pool.

Wait... that means special ammunitions are ignoring the base AP of the weapons?

So what, an MMG with flechettes would do the same damage as an assault rifle?
And APDS are not even modifying the Barrett damage code (well, not that I would mind)?

I've been wondering whether that was intentional or just an oversight as well. I always thought it would make more sense to apply the ammo's template to the weapon's base stats like they seem to on BBB p.157 Shooting Through Barriers.

This is my baby:
Smartlinked Ruger Thunderbolt w/ Personalized Grip, Extended Clip, Improved Rangefinder, Simple Firing Selection Change(FA), Advanced Safety, Tracking Tags, a Gas Vent 3 accessory and Custom Look 2: The grip is polished soapstone (the reddish-purple one). The metal, black and slightly shiny, is etched in a dull red with a pattern of brambles towards the back and transforms into a snake bearing it's fangs at the muzzle.

I've named him Kaa and regularly feed him corpsec rent-a-cops. I know that RAW says you're not supposed to put gas vents on pistols but I ignore that rule because it is silly.

If you want a gunblade, don't use bayonets.
Take a melee weapon (like a claymore or nodachi, if you mean serious business, or a monosword if you need a free hand) and equip it with the under"barrel" weapon mod.
Arsenal precisely says that this is possible in the underbarrel weapon entry.

For style reasons (and a gunblade is all about posing around and showing off how effing steampunk you are, isn't it?), i'd choose an increased drum Warhawk as the gun part, but this only leaves you with 4 rounds.
However, this should be sufficient until you get into melle range and can start slicing up your enemies instead of just pumping them full of lead.

Though you should mention that the OTs 38's silentness is achieved by using a very special and rare type of ammunition (SP-4, 7.62x41) that can be described as a round with a built-in silencer - the round has an oversized case that encloses the powder and traps the explosion, transfering the energy to the bullet through a moving piston.
This means that the shot is very silent as the powder gas never leaves the case or the gun, thus eliminating gun noise source #1. As the round is subsonic (200m/s or 655fps), noise source #2 doesn't matter anyway.

I'd be interested in SR stats for that ammo! Any gun firing such ammo (and it should be custom-built to accomodate the unusual case dimensions and recoil) would be effectively silenced without needing a silencer (meaning no concealment penalty) but damage should be very low (the described SP-4 ammo is slower than common pistols rounds like 9x19 [~400m/s, 1312fps], .45ACP [~250m/s, 820fps] or even .22LR [220m/s, 722fps], which to me is an example of Hold-Out Pistol ammo, though it is heavier than 9mm or .22) and armor penetration should be low.

Russians have so much fun toys...
Folding anti-material sniper rifle (sorry small pic)
Silenced anti-material sniper rifle (yep, just like the Barrett 121)
Less original but still nice, a silenced assault rifle.
And they got a whole range of underwater guns. Here the assault rifle.
Yay, overkill gun. (Don't show this one to your players)

I want a AGS-30... For, um, Prarie Dog Hunting.

Awakened Prairie Dog Hunting?

Oh no, you need something bigger for that.

Or load it with HEAT rounds.

You DO realize that the Awakened Prairie Dog is only slightly larger than his mundane cousin and his only magical property is glowing in the dark?

Oh sure, that's what they tell you. It's what they'd like you to beleive. How are we to know that glow isn't the by-product of some sort of super-lethal magical cancer-inducing radiation field? Best bet is to blow the little suckers to kingdom come before they get close enough to irradiate you to sterile oblivion I say.

Those are not as yet reflected in the online Errata. The fifth printing was released after the initial PDF release of Arsenal but it is still released before the print of Arsenal, regardless of the fact that Arsenal was in the middle of the print run.

It does not address the point that the 2 brand new flechette guns are still +2AP which would have been +5AP if the design decision was really to make all flechette weapons +5AP. Therefore the "errors" could be a reversal of the 5th printing decision.

You DO realize that I grew up in a Mining town, am stuck in the middle of the Praries, and miss the Earth Shattering Kaboom?

An AK-98 (or Alpha, if you'd rather) with Internal Smartgun (with Thermographic on the cam) and the Pilot upgrade. Tack on a database of vehicle and armor preferences, Facial Recognition, Image spotter and Vehicle Identification softwares. Add a second clip, and RC. Load different ammo loads in the two clips - one for hitting more armoured targets and another for hitting softer bodies. Command the pilot to identify the objects and targets it can see and switch to the anti-armour rounds when pointed at given classes of vehicles and body armour otherwise use the anti-infantry clip.

This design should be able to detect a group of enemies and switch the trigger to fire a grenade. It saves using that action to switch ammo types, it could be used (with a particular martial art) to take an aim action or some other potential use of the action (I can never remember what else you can use a free action for, maybe situational awareness?). Alternatively you could drop the second clip option and just use the pilot to switch to grenades based on target density or for anti-vehicle work.

With an underslung shotgun for flamethrower you could use it to autofire the shotgun if it passes over a target that is too close (laser rangefinder on the smartgun system).

Droneguns do not have to fly or crawl to be useful.

I enjoyed your thread, Raven, but I was a bit concerned about upgrading gas vent systems. I understood that, once gas vent systems were added, they couldn't be removed. How do you then upgrade an existing gas vent 2 to gas vent 3? Is this my erroneous understanding?

IIRC Sensor Targeting is
Sensor Test = Sensor + Perception Test(Sensor + Clearsight) using the Signature Table for mods, metahumans is a -3 mod.
Passive = Sensor Attribute + Gunnery
Active = Needs a successful sensor test then use Sensor Test with successes adding to the Gunnery test.

As of right now this is how RAW treats your weapon design, since the sensor rating is yet to be clarified/etc.......*shrugs*

WMS

The intent is, in the end, to leave the firing options to the character. The design instead automatically switches between the two clips and between the primary weapon system and the underslung weapon according to target profiling. If you really want, it can also send AR target indicators to eyes or glasses.

It saves that free action you might otherwise use for switching the active clip (switch device mode) for running to the next piece of cover, for calling a shot (additional damage?) or dropping prone to avoid return fire.

If you decide to splash out, one can get Pilot 6, sensor softs at 6 and Vision Enhancement 3 for a DP of 9 (sensorsoft replaces normal DP, VE is a positive modifier) to identify a particular object (armour), vehicle or face (last is an ancilliary use for identifying soft targets explicitly) and then react to the identification. I cannot find anything that states that sensor perception runs along different modifiers to the normal perception mods, so we can tack on the active searching modifier of +3 to hit a DP of 12. I can't find any reason that Clearsight actually benefits this DP. You can expect roughly -4 in mods in a normal combat situation, so we knock the DP down to 8. When buying (because I don't want to roll a bunch of tests just to determine if my gun fires the right kind of ammo for me) it gets two hits. Sufficient to identify, I would say.

Your Pilot uses a free action to perceive in detail for the combat turn and then uses all further actions to switch device modes (doesn't need to control vehicle since it doesn't control movement) because it holds it action for the pass until its trigger is pulled. I think we can actually abstract this all away to "can select the right kind of ammunition for the job in most reasonable cases".

Sorry but per RAW Vision Enhancement 3 is not yet part of Sensors used for Sensor Targeting. What makes a sensor rating 3 from a sensor rating 6 has yet to be defined, but much promised by the devs.

RAW Page 162
Table : Signature Table.

Sensors:
To detect a person, critter, or a vehicle with sensors, the character/vehicle must make a successful Sensor + Perception Test (Sensor + Clearsight autosoft in the case of drones)..........Sensors are designed to detect the "signature" (emissions, composition, sound etc.) of other vehicles, so modifiers from the Signature Table apply to the detecting vehicles dice pool.

From that table Metahumans, critters are a -3 dice mod.

Clearsight autosoft is the only sensor soft available at this time. But the maximum rating for autosofts is 4.

WMS

This thread is going well, but I've got a few questions and requests:

Firstly, Raven has done remarkable work on his weapon mod thread, but I'm sure core rules say that once a gas vent system is fitted, it stays fitted, meaning upgrades to Gas Vent 3 are impossible.
Secondly, I am sure only larger weapons need chameleon coating, so the sneaky pistol he designed is quite as sneaky as he had hoped (anyways, it doesn't add to the concealability of the weapon; rather it stops the weapon from reducing your camo).
Thirdly, since I'm not GMing, I'm not allowed to disregard the rules, so I can't fit gas vents on pistols etc.

I'm playing a B&E specialist. I need something I can sneak through the front door, and something with more bang for when I come in through the roof/window/airconditioning. Any number crunchers want to help me out, please?

Edit: At present, I've got a Yamaha Sakura Fubuki with skinlink, smartlink and silencer and an Ingram Smartgun with Chameleon coating (goes with the suit), auto-adjusting barrel weight and sling. Comments welcome.

I gave you an appropriate quote from Synner earlier in the thread concerning this subject as soon as you requested it.

Pilots are used in drone/vehicles, and such use the rules for drones/vehicles. Also the rating 6 pilot is beyond starting character generation. Rating 4 pilots are the max allowed by RAW. Also the max Response at character generation is 5.

If you are not using the Pilot and or its rating then, yes you the user can use the Mark 1 Eyeball rules with any vision enhancements.

WMS

Pistol of your choice
- Ceramic/Plasteel Components, Level 3; 1 slot (Arsenal 150)
- Easy Breakdown; 1 (Manual) or 2 (Powered) slots (Arsenal 150)
- Internal Silencer; 2 Slots (Arsenal 153)
- Hi-C Plastic Rounds (Arsenal 34)

The idea is you wear it as jewelry, and it is undetectable by MAD scanners. Ammunition can be stored in a hollowed out boot heel or similar. -6 Perception to notice it firing. Best used with a Face.

Pistol of your choice
- Ceramic/Plasteel Components, Level 3; 1 slot (Arsenal 150)
- Chameleon Coating; 2 slots (Arsenal 150)
- Internal Silencer; 2 slots (Arsenal 153)
- Hi-C Plastic Rounds (Arsenal 34)

Undetectable by MAD scanners, and -4 (Heavy) or -6 (Light) concealability. -6 Perception to notice it firing. Does not require 2-3 rounds to assemble as Breakdown does, making it the preferred choice for Covert Ops that may go bad.

Either design leaves 1 or 2 slots open for mods of your choice. Smartlink/Skinlink is a good choice (use a pistol that comes smartlinked for Chameleon & Powered Breakdown to avoid overmodding)