Thanks, Muss. Have I misunderstood Chameleon coating? I thought it was to prevent weapons from detracting from your chameleon suit and, as such, wasn't required on smaller weapons. I didn't think Chameleon coating added any concealibility to a weapon.

..I'm making the ammo unique to the weapon (as it basically already is). SR does not differentiate base DV by ammo (save for positive/negative modifiers) but by firearm size.

I am classifying the OTs-38 as a Light Pistol 4DV/0AP (80% LP ranges) and comes standard with the built in laser sight. Concealability is that of a Hold Out. As it is a double action revolver it is capable to firing two shots per IP. The OTs-38 cannot mount any accessories (barrel or top) but can be internally smartlinked. At this point I am making it incapable of using any other type of ammo other than the silenced rounds specially designed for it.

The rounds will most likely be sold in clips of 5 at 4x the cost for normal ammo (40 per "clip" - 80 per 10), Haven't determined the Availability or Cost for the weapon yet (need to perform a little more search fu).

Firing an OTs-38 will impart a -6 penalty to hearing perception tests.

I have also considered an MAD defeating variant (this is 2070 after all).

Well im think of mixing the brake down rules with the underbarrel mount rules to make modulated weapons. my fave bing the reactor sting that can be added to a katar (think that how you spell it) using the bayonet mount can be broken down and have key bits replaced for fire none (f) ammo and other cool things only stuff that could be done with the slots left over after personalized grip and Easy Breakdown to the modular parts maybe -1 or 2 slots for this ability. but i means that your gun can be changed for what ever you doing but dose take 6-7 rounds to take a part and reassemble with the new parts with just the bare bones bing the same you could swap personalized grip with electronic firing for a silent gun. I find this ruling very fair and not game braking as its just a way to use a underbarrel mount on your reactor sting. feedback on this idea would be nice.
Its basically a gun reactor sting easy brake down and personalized grip with 4 extra swappable slots i need a price for something like this but each mod set must be brought and be four slots or less so you could have it electronically fired and silenced or melee hardened and have bayonet mount plus a skin like plus smart system for another and any other 4 slot combo that would make sense i view the extra ammo mod a 4 slot veration of the large mod on weapon firing selection mod as you can see this variable weapon is useful but needs a lot of cash put into it to be as good as it could be. Like the mounting rules these all need GM approval tush making it balanced (in my eyes) as if its overpower you cant blame the player.
-Edit just found out its 7 slots but me as a GM wouldn't count the swapping system as a slot and if you did just drop the grip as its not needed any way really and would be much better of bing replaced with powered brake down. Also with more careful reading this is a plus 50 to each mod plus the brakedown cost to stop over uses and so they all can be hidden. I am now going to deffently use two of these on my face infiltrator.

Thanks!

Do you have a good quote for that?!? (i.e. the not removing them). When you buy them they come as a modification, and you're right you can't upgrade to an accessory, as the accessory is external and barrel mounted and would mess things up. However, with the Arsenal rules you get to directly modify the gun, and so since you're taking it apart anyway, changing out gas vents for bigger gas vents makes sense to me and doesn't seem to violate the rules. If you have a quote though, I'd love to here it...

You don't like the Whisper ??

The HK Urban Combat and it's smaller cousin might be good choices for off the rack guns from Arsenal, but those "can't be further modified," otherwise, Mospellsheimer got a good package going for ya

I'll have to look at the Chameleon coating rules, but I thought they did add to Concealability and didn't have a size limit.... I'll have to check...

Very well. Thanks.

Only thing I see with the above quote

are the statements in Arsenal that modifications can be added and removed. Sure you can get rid of your level 2 gas vent for a level 3 one but you'll have to remove the level 2 one with a test and/or cash then pay for and add the level 3 one. As the no remove rule is an ass if some ones slowly upgrading there weapons or something like that. That is unless the above quote is after Arsenal came out in witch case OK but ill still play by my own ruling there.

I see nothing in Arsenal that overrides the fairly blatent canon statement that a Gas-Vent, once installed into a weapon (be it as a modification or an accessory), cannot then be removed.

It's comparable to regular pressure loadings of .38 Spl. fired out of a 2 inch barrel. 148 grains @ ~680 fps for the .38 vs 143 grains @ ~650 fps for the OT-38. Definite hold out pistol penetration and range.

Yes and a fairly blatant canon statement also says pistols and shotguns can not have gas vents even though the RAW and Augmentation have examples of weapons that contradict such blatant canon statements.

Back on track, for a interesting weapon twink take a laser weapon and make it full auto and expand it battery capacity. No recoil there.

WMS

Heh, true...could explain it as a solid beam that lasts longer. Like a quarter or half second, rather than just a millisecond pulse or whatever. Or a series of pulses, which would be more in line with standard burst fire systems. Speaking of which, do you think it would/should be reasonable to take the two SA/BF pistols that have to burst as complex actions and mod them to be able to burstfire as simple actions with the minor firing selection change?

No my intent was for a more rapid firing charging system for the laser pulses. Longer Pulses are no the answer just more of them, nor are beam lasers.

Despite the Availability and Cost factor Laser weapons have a definite place in Shadowrun 4.

WMS

And those would be special exceptions, as is the Ingram Smartgun with its otherwise-restricted Integral Suppressor/Gas-Vent combo. What's your point? The rules make a concrete statement, then include a small number of specific exceptions to that statement. Outside of those noted exceptions, the main statement stands, if we are talking canon (and I was).

Canon does not contradict itself. Ip so facto what you are attempting to call "canon" is not, ie the Devs/Freelanceers can violate "Canon" on whim/intent/will.

So why get ones knickers in a twist, when someone (non Dev/Freelancer) suggests what you feel breaks the RAW when the RAW is broken repeatably by Devs/Freelancers.

You seem to be taking it as a absolute rule when in fact it is not.

WMS

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. From your other posts, you seem to be a reasonably intelligent person, so I am at a loss to understand your point of view.

- Canon states that specific classes of weapons cannot be modified to have gas-vents.
- Canon states that gas-vents, once installed in a weapon, cannot be removed.
- Canon lists some pre-created, corporate-designed weapons that fit in the aforementioned proscribed weapon classes that come as standard with gas-vents pre-installed. (note that no modification is required, as presumably the weapon is designed from the ground up with the gas-vent as integral)

There are no contradictions.

The weapon modification rules in Arsenal are not creation rules but rather exactly what they are billed as, rules for modifications and accessories. Weapon creation is outside of their scope. If the GM decides that he wants to introduce any number of weapons that deviate from the listed canon rules, that is his right. But if the rules as written are being used, then modifications to weapons are done according to the rules in Arsenal (not based on the pre-created, canon-listed, corporate-manufactured weapons), but also adhere to any relevant canon rules in the main book (and others) unless those rules are specifically superseded.

For those of you that have already read the above post, I edited it a touch.

Damn, this really makes me wish I had Arsenal, seems like alot of things I've been looking for are in there...

>kicks useless small town gaming store which finally got 1 copy of street magic and 1 copy of the corrules but nothing else SR4<

Ah well, I'm too broke to buy it right now anyway.

>kicks Forbidden Kingdom, Iron Man, Pulp Fiction, and Royal Crown Review for all coming out/coming back to the theater/doing a concert in the same month as some major business expenses<

Seriously, I've got $30 to eat off of for the rest of the month.

More on topic, is there anything in arsenal about silencing multibarrel weapons like the Fubiki?

Does it still cost the same or did they decide to nod towards realism and jack the price on me?

Both, actually. If you are only trying to preserve the full bonus of a chameleon suit, you need to coat weapons larger than a pistol. Pistol size & smaller do not affect it. If you are trying to hide the weapon, regardless of if you have a suit or not, chameleon coating is a must.

hmm . . using arsenal rules . . could one indeed build a laser-gatling? O.o
incorporating the characteristic sound of laser and minigun, shooting as fast as an HMG and all that without recoil?
ok, so it would be hella expansive and use energy/ammo like nothing else and it would scream for ares or someone else to come take a look at your new toy . .
but aside from that?

I would think that the smartgun just follows the Arsenal ruling that you have to turn of the gas-vent to get the advantage of the suppressor

I think that I lean more to Fortune's take on this: like any rule (don't park next to a fire hydrant, don't hit girls) there are exceptions (unless you're an emergency vehicle, unless she's pointing a twinked Ares Alpha at you). I think SR4 worked hard to balance out weapons, and quoting exceptions (whether they are designer's whims or careful thought is moot) doesn't then undo the rule.

I'm also having an interesting conversation offline with Reepneep about the "recoil chamber" in the Ares Alpha. Isn't that a gas vent by another name? Or can one take the Ares Alpha, with it's 2 points of recoil compensation, and then add a gas vent 3? Do the designers really want an AR that fires long bursts with absolutely no recoil problems (assuming one then puts in other mods and add ons to take RC up to 9)?

Raven: Fortune quoted it in the very next post after yours. I don't know if I'm reading that incorrectly, but that's the rule I used to try to keep balance.

I'd also argue that the Ingram is one of the few weapons that can use both silencer and gas vent, purely because otherwise you would have bought a silenced weapon initially, only to have it become noisy when Arsenal appeared. Like Fortune, I think this is an exception which doesn't remove the rule. I know this doesn't make real life sense, but I think it is there to keep the game reasonably balanced.

Damn, missed that section. Okay, let me now direct you to page 61 of Arsenal where the Sensor Softwares are located. They replace your DP (and clearsight overrides sensor tests to use Sensor + Clearsight so it doesn't matter if the dronegun possesses it) on a sensor test and, because it's using a single sensor, you should get to apply vision enhancement as a positive modifier imo. This gives a DP of 9. To detect a metahuman or drone it's a -3, so 6 (the alternative is to ignore all mods, which will give this very same result). Buy a single success to detect objects that are not trying to hide (since it only needs a single success to get the intended effect of the Sensor Software packages) and roll against hidden targets. Switching device modes is a free action and the gun does not fire itself.

This entire package is designed to free up your free action and reduce the complications in switching targets so that you can be more tactically effective through whatever means you can. It was actually the first thing I thought of for a serious gun mod package.

Bah, 12 hours of sleep on a middle speed forum is a lot of posts.

OK we are back into "How Many Angels Can Dance On the Head Of Pin" type of debate/discussion. Understanding my POV is not a needed merely wanted.

This is another example of the "Clueless Nature" of the Devs/Freelancers.

One method of removing a gas vent type of recoil compensation is to replace the barrel, or cut off the gas vent.

Technically by Arsenal, I can shorten the barrel ie removing the gas vent, then lengthen the barrel and on that increased length have a gas vent.

Besides the obvious method of actually cutting the barrel short, a "better" method would be to remove the old barrel with its gas vent, then install a "new" barrel with a better gas vent. Since the "new" barrel was designed with the better gas vent, it does not break your POV on canon. Replacing barrels is a fairly easy job to do even in today's weapons, Cannons, Howitzers, mobile artillery, naval artillery excepted.

WMS

*sighs* Another example of the term sensor being used in entirely different uses/mechanics by the Devs/Freelancers.

Drones/Pilots etc do not get a standard perception test. Once you add a Pilot/Drone to use the Sensor Softs on page 61, my POV is you have to use the rules for Pilot/Drone sensor detection/targeting.

But Synner has stated that there will be more information/definition on "Sensors" in a FAQ/Errata etc, in some infinite future date of release.

WMS

Shrug. I almost mentioned swapping out barrels, as I know it is pretty basic, and that would be how I rule things in my game.

But I was discussing actual canon.

If we want to get technical, canon does not state that a gas-vent is built into the barrel. The rules as written specifically state that a gas-vent is built into, and takes up the barrel mount (and once installed, cannot be removed). Possibly in SR4 some part of the actual modification affects more than just the barrel, and the various gas-vent (mounting attachments or whatever?) are mutually exclusive.

I don't really know if this actually makes a difference in real life. I don't really care either.

So is it your belief ArchBishop and Cardinal of Canon Fortunata, that 1,001 Angels can dance on the head of a pin then?

Heretic and Canon Spiker
WMS

was reviewing arsenal on a bus trip yesterday, and found a few questions. folding stocks: apparently they don't affect concealability when folded up. does that make sense everyone, or am i just being a stickler for detail? also, is the barrel reduction mod compatable with the short-barrel T-250?

the no gas vents on pistols/shotguns and the no drum clips on longarms seem abitrary. but i guess the dev's put the rules in place for a reason...

That's toturi's title ... ask him.

All I have been doing is attempt to clarify the actual canon rules. In doing so I provided a number of quotes from the appropriate rulebooks, and demonstrated that there is no actual contradiction in the rules as written.

It doesn't really matter in the long run what any one individual GM does in his games, as they are free to do so with little-to-no outside interference. But we are here to discuss Shadowrun, and the various facets of the game, including rules. In doing so, it is important to know just what the rules say before deciding whether or not to go about changing them. I would have thought this concept was somewhat obvious.

So ArchBishop and Cardinal of Canon Fortunata you deny any agreement with Archbishop and Cardinal of Canon Toturious stated number for angels but then you seem to disassemble in the face of hard scriptures of canon, claiming divine inspirations/exceptions?

Until his Holiness, Most Excellent Mouth of the Divine, the Most Introspective and Oblivious Pope Synner gives his divine wisdom regarding this matter the issue of hard scriptures of canon vs divine intent, we humbly will regard this discussion of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin to be moot.

Heretic and Canon Spiker
WMS

You are a provocative guy, WMS. Don't be a last word guy too. Can you resist the temptation?

House Rule for my table!:

A character with either Skill Aptitude for the relevant skill or a specialization in modification may modify Shotguns or Pistols with the Gas Vent modification, and remove a gas vent mod that has already been installed. This does not apply to weapons that were built from the ground up with a gas vent system inherent to the design.

Aptitude or a Modding specialization may, at GM's discretion, also allow for other deviations from canon with weapon or vehicle modifications.

I think using 'better' in air quotes is probably a good idea.

What they are doing is fitting sticker compound tires that are effectively racing slicks with the most minimal grip cut into them, and you make some XTREME tradeoffs when you do that. The trade off is in this case is:

Better traction when tires are warm - which makes it faster around a track because you can attack corners with more speeds

Downsides - Reduced traction in the rain - to the point of undriveability
Reduced tire lifespan - the sticker compound wears much faster
Reduced traction in the cold - sticky compound doesn't function when cold, obviously.

Thats what you are usually doing when you are fiddling with a 'performance' car, rarely making strict improvements.

I have to jump in on all of this. As to modifying pistols with gas vents. I have to agree that it's not allowed by canon. Personally, I see this as fair as you get the added concealability of a pistol at the cost of not being able to put truly complex venting systems on them. Ones that are factory=made to use those though are exceptions.

I will also agree that canon says that once a gas vent accessory is installed, it cannot be removed. However...

Arsenal Page 129 clearly states methods for removing modifications.

Arsenal Page 148 Modifications vs. Accessories section:
"If an off -the-rack weapon comes with certain upgrades
like smartgun, gas-vent system, etc., it is assumed that those
upgrades are modifications instead of accessories. However,
those modifications do not count toward the slot limit and the
weapons themselves still count as unmodifi ed."

emphasis mine.


So guns that come with gas vent systems have gas vent modifications not accessories and modifications can be removed and a better system put in its place.

If there's is something to contradict this, then I apologize, but this is the rules I've been going off of for allowing factory-built GVII to be upgraded to GVIII.


What is not clear to me is whether those factory-built modifications that don't take up the normal six slots, once removed, provide equivalent empty slots above and beyond the 6.

I ruled it would, because I liked Raven Bloodeyes tricked out Ares Alpha with the underbarrel grenade launcher replaced with a powerslide system for mounting a number of different underbarrel weapons. But then, my gun bunny friend wet himself when he saw it, so I couldn't bring myself to turn him down.

Honestly, my favourite mod was rather simple: Personalized Grip on a Warhawk, Metahuman Adaptation for the troll using it, and making it SA instead of SS.

I thought you could buy them meta-adapted by default by adding 10% to the price without using a mod. Did Arsenal overrule that?

I made something quite similar but tweaked it to the max. I added a smartlink with improved rangefinder and an expanded cylinder. The thing is practically a hunting rifle after that.

Gun blades. Hell yeah. Except not.

Underbarrel weapon specifically states that it's been known to put a pistol into the hilt of a sword and let it fire down the blade. Has anyone ever done this, or figured out a reason to do it? It sounds cool. You're taking a nice small concealable pistol and putting it onto a big ol' sword, it doesn't make much sense concealability wise.

Here's what I see it being used for: two handed weapons. Generally if you want a sword and a gun, you'd have to be an ass not to take ambidexterity, since you could have any one-handed weapon you wanted at full ammo capacity and a melee weapon. The sword gun has only half ammo capacity, and I'm pretty sure you couldn't mount anything bigger than a pistol underbarrel to a sword. But when you're talking about a claymore or something similar, concealability is already long gone. And no matter how ambidextrous you are, you can't have two weapons without a penalty when wielding a claymore. Seems like a decent way for a melee person to stay relevant at range, huh?

or you could mount a bayonet on a assault rifle or a longarm or something, add melee hardening and poof: gunblade. granted, a bayonet is not a fantastic hand-to-hand weapon, but you gotta make a comprimise somewhere.

S&W Model 500 with muzzle break

IPSC raceguns with muzzle brakes and red dot sights.

Race guns
1911 Race Guns
Race Gun
1911 Hybrid Barrel
Magna Port
Schuemann Hybrid System
Note the following PDF describes a large selection of compensators that are threaded.
JP RECOIL ELIMINATOR/TACTICAL COMPENSATOR
Recoil Brakes
Muzzle Breaks

Heretic and Canonista Spiker
WMS

That is not an article of RAW and therefore it matter not to canon whether or not 1001 Angels can dance on the head of a pin.



Not quite. Normally you would be right, because you remove those modifications per Arse p129 and then put them back per Weapon Modifications (Arse p148-153). But the crucial point is that the modifications were by themselves legal in the first place. The modifications we are talking about are not legal modifications in and of themselves but were put into place via the authors fiat. Although the mods can be taken out(since mod removal rules do not have a stated limit as to what mods they can remove), the mods, if illegal, cannot be put back in as there are no rule mechanics for them to do so.

I'll agree that the particular 'illegal' mods on pistols are not valid for the upgrade. But I refuse to allow a blanket statement that it is impossible to upgrade any and all gas vent systems. If the gas vent is built into a machine pistol, smg, or assault rifle, then it can be popped out and a better one put in.

That all aside, my favorite guns at the moment are a pair of Ares Crusaders (for the 40 clip and gv2 built in) with Full Auto Firing Selector change, Internal Gas vent 3, Personalized Grip, and internal smartlinks shot from two agility 12, strength 6 cyberarms with gyromounts and an ambidexterity shooter.

Strength Recoil 1 + Gas Vent 3 + Grip 1 + Gyro 3 = 8 recoil, enough to fire a Long/short burst combo (-5/-3) without recoil.

Firing two long and two short at 11+ DP each can cut a hell of a swath. And firing two 23+ DP for two long bursts fired separately can still turn things into gooey messes. Not the most subtle or stealthy of sorts though.

Can actually be done without the gyromount wrists (which are Forbidden items) by putting auto-adjusting weights on the guns, but usually requires overmodification or a different gun if I recall from playing around with it.

As promised, I introduced Matilda, and here she is, the Cast-Iron Russian Slitch herself:

Customized AK-97-S "Matilda"
Rifle: Damage: 6P; AP: –1; Fire Mode: SA/BF/FA; Recoil Compensation: 4; Magazine Capacity: 38 (Box Mag)
Shotgun: Damage: 7P; AP: -1; Fire Mode: SA; Recoil Compensation: 1; Magazine Capacity: 5 (Tubular Mag)
Integrated Smartgun Link: (Computer Assisted Aiming, just like in RoboCop)
Gas Vent 3: (Forces spent gases against the recoil of the rifle, like a retro-rocket.)
Personalized Grip: (Vat-Grown Walnut Furniture)
Underbarrel Weapon: (Short-Barrelled Defiance T-250 Shotgun)

Well, now that the combat axe is definately a two handed weapon ('twas a little unclear in earlier versions from what I remember), you could get all old school and make the modern version of one of these:

Gun Hatchet

Also, for those runners all into the Steampunk fashion line and the armored clothing therein, just for style points really, with your taser-equipped rapier or saber:

Sword Pistol


Any practical reason? Not as such, no...

typical runner arguing would be:"if i put a lump of metal under my barrel i get 1 point of recoil compensation . . so if i put a knife of the exact same weight down there i get the knife AND the point of recoil compensation too!"
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2369/157229...075255e05_o.jpg
edit: combine with: http://www.cornershot.com/
and: http://gizmodo.com/365738/from-flashlight-...ept-from-magpul

i've seen flintlocks built into a cutlass before... but damn that gun hatchet is nice. i want one now...

Eeeee, I love you! You just clued me into how to make weapons like Violet has in Ultraviolet - machine pistols with blades on them. Of course, her blades come out of the bottom of the grip (stock?), but I don't think any GM would fuss over whether a built in underbarrel weapon is actually under the barrel or in a better place for pure coolness.

...Violet...?

Slivergun upgraded to FA... then high velocity...

Simple combination: Ingram White knight + auto adjusting weight + high velocity. you start with an RC of 7( in FA mode, and it just goes up from there based on your preference of mods to get more more more. Heavy barrel and electronic firing recommended. gets you to 9(10). Put that in the hands of someone with a cyber gyromount and 6+ str for a total of 13(14) RC. Load with ammo of preference. Apply bullets liberally when required.

Advanced combination: Ruger Super Warhawk + improved cylander size + firing selection (SA + BF). You now have a burst fire revolver.

For the trollbow users out there: plasteel level 3 arrows with easy breakdown. Or just get them made out of thermite core plasteel.

and my personal favorite
Wackymod: Grapple gun with an underbarrel mounted... grapple gun.

ill do you one better. MGL-12 with additional clip mod. then add an underbarrel grenade launcher. i call it the Trifecta.

"Folks, Come on down to 'ol Dan's Explodin' #$@! Warehouse! We got more grenades, bomb, mortars an' missiles than we know what to do with. I mean, hell, lookit what ol' Jimmy came up with!"