So is it your belief ArchBishop and Cardinal of Canon Fortunata, that 1,001 Angels can dance on the head of a pin then? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Heretic and Canon Spiker
WMS

was reviewing arsenal on a bus trip yesterday, and found a few questions. folding stocks: apparently they don't affect concealability when folded up. does that make sense everyone, or am i just being a stickler for detail? also, is the barrel reduction mod compatable with the short-barrel T-250?

the no gas vents on pistols/shotguns and the no drum clips on longarms seem abitrary. but i guess the dev's put the rules in place for a reason...

That's toturi's title ... ask him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

All I have been doing is attempt to clarify the actual canon rules. In doing so I provided a number of quotes from the appropriate rulebooks, and demonstrated that there is no actual contradiction in the rules as written.

It doesn't really matter in the long run what any one individual GM does in his games, as they are free to do so with little-to-no outside interference. But we are here to discuss Shadowrun, and the various facets of the game, including rules. In doing so, it is important to know just what the rules say before deciding whether or not to go about changing them. I would have thought this concept was somewhat obvious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So ArchBishop and Cardinal of Canon Fortunata you deny any agreement with Archbishop and Cardinal of Canon Toturious stated number for angels but then you seem to disassemble in the face of hard scriptures of canon, claiming divine inspirations/exceptions? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) Until his Holiness, Most Excellent Mouth of the Divine, the Most Introspective and Oblivious Pope Synner gives his divine wisdom regarding this matter the issue of hard scriptures of canon vs divine intent, we humbly will regard this discussion of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin to be moot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Heretic and Canon Spiker
WMS

You are a provocative guy, WMS. Don't be a last word guy too. Can you resist the temptation?

House Rule for my table!:

A character with either Skill Aptitude for the relevant skill or a specialization in modification may modify Shotguns or Pistols with the Gas Vent modification, and remove a gas vent mod that has already been installed. This does not apply to weapons that were built from the ground up with a gas vent system inherent to the design.

Aptitude or a Modding specialization may, at GM's discretion, also allow for other deviations from canon with weapon or vehicle modifications.

I think using 'better' in air quotes is probably a good idea.

What they are doing is fitting sticker compound tires that are effectively racing slicks with the most minimal grip cut into them, and you make some XTREME tradeoffs when you do that. The trade off is in this case is:

Better traction when tires are warm - which makes it faster around a track because you can attack corners with more speeds

Downsides - Reduced traction in the rain - to the point of undriveability
Reduced tire lifespan - the sticker compound wears much faster
Reduced traction in the cold - sticky compound doesn't function when cold, obviously.

Thats what you are usually doing when you are fiddling with a 'performance' car, rarely making strict improvements.

I have to jump in on all of this. As to modifying pistols with gas vents. I have to agree that it's not allowed by canon. Personally, I see this as fair as you get the added concealability of a pistol at the cost of not being able to put truly complex venting systems on them. Ones that are factory=made to use those though are exceptions.

I will also agree that canon says that once a gas vent accessory is installed, it cannot be removed. However...

Arsenal Page 129 clearly states methods for removing modifications.

Arsenal Page 148 Modifications vs. Accessories section:
"If an off -the-rack weapon comes with certain upgrades
like smartgun, gas-vent system, etc., it is assumed that those
upgrades are modifications instead of accessories. However,
those modifications do not count toward the slot limit and the
weapons themselves still count as unmodifi ed."

emphasis mine.


So guns that come with gas vent systems have gas vent modifications not accessories and modifications can be removed and a better system put in its place.

If there's is something to contradict this, then I apologize, but this is the rules I've been going off of for allowing factory-built GVII to be upgraded to GVIII.


What is not clear to me is whether those factory-built modifications that don't take up the normal six slots, once removed, provide equivalent empty slots above and beyond the 6.

I ruled it would, because I liked Raven Bloodeyes tricked out Ares Alpha with the underbarrel grenade launcher replaced with a powerslide system for mounting a number of different underbarrel weapons. But then, my gun bunny friend wet himself when he saw it, so I couldn't bring myself to turn him down.

Honestly, my favourite mod was rather simple: Personalized Grip on a Warhawk, Metahuman Adaptation for the troll using it, and making it SA instead of SS.

I thought you could buy them meta-adapted by default by adding 10% to the price without using a mod. Did Arsenal overrule that?

I made something quite similar but tweaked it to the max. I added a smartlink with improved rangefinder and an expanded cylinder. The thing is practically a hunting rifle after that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Gun blades. Hell yeah. Except not.

Underbarrel weapon specifically states that it's been known to put a pistol into the hilt of a sword and let it fire down the blade. Has anyone ever done this, or figured out a reason to do it? It sounds cool. You're taking a nice small concealable pistol and putting it onto a big ol' sword, it doesn't make much sense concealability wise.

Here's what I see it being used for: two handed weapons. Generally if you want a sword and a gun, you'd have to be an ass not to take ambidexterity, since you could have any one-handed weapon you wanted at full ammo capacity and a melee weapon. The sword gun has only half ammo capacity, and I'm pretty sure you couldn't mount anything bigger than a pistol underbarrel to a sword. But when you're talking about a claymore or something similar, concealability is already long gone. And no matter how ambidextrous you are, you can't have two weapons without a penalty when wielding a claymore. Seems like a decent way for a melee person to stay relevant at range, huh?

or you could mount a bayonet on a assault rifle or a longarm or something, add melee hardening and poof: gunblade. granted, a bayonet is not a fantastic hand-to-hand weapon, but you gotta make a comprimise somewhere.

S&W Model 500 with muzzle break

IPSC raceguns with muzzle brakes and red dot sights.

Race guns
1911 Race Guns
Race Gun
1911 Hybrid Barrel
Magna Port
Schuemann Hybrid System
Note the following PDF describes a large selection of compensators that are threaded.
JP RECOIL ELIMINATOR/TACTICAL COMPENSATOR
Recoil Brakes
Muzzle Breaks

Heretic and Canonista Spiker
WMS

That is not an article of RAW and therefore it matter not to canon whether or not 1001 Angels can dance on the head of a pin.



Not quite. Normally you would be right, because you remove those modifications per Arse p129 and then put them back per Weapon Modifications (Arse p148-153). But the crucial point is that the modifications were by themselves legal in the first place. The modifications we are talking about are not legal modifications in and of themselves but were put into place via the authors fiat. Although the mods can be taken out(since mod removal rules do not have a stated limit as to what mods they can remove), the mods, if illegal, cannot be put back in as there are no rule mechanics for them to do so.

I'll agree that the particular 'illegal' mods on pistols are not valid for the upgrade. But I refuse to allow a blanket statement that it is impossible to upgrade any and all gas vent systems. If the gas vent is built into a machine pistol, smg, or assault rifle, then it can be popped out and a better one put in.

That all aside, my favorite guns at the moment are a pair of Ares Crusaders (for the 40 clip and gv2 built in) with Full Auto Firing Selector change, Internal Gas vent 3, Personalized Grip, and internal smartlinks shot from two agility 12, strength 6 cyberarms with gyromounts and an ambidexterity shooter.

Strength Recoil 1 + Gas Vent 3 + Grip 1 + Gyro 3 = 8 recoil, enough to fire a Long/short burst combo (-5/-3) without recoil.

Firing two long and two short at 11+ DP each can cut a hell of a swath. And firing two 23+ DP for two long bursts fired separately can still turn things into gooey messes. Not the most subtle or stealthy of sorts though.

Can actually be done without the gyromount wrists (which are Forbidden items) by putting auto-adjusting weights on the guns, but usually requires overmodification or a different gun if I recall from playing around with it.

As promised, I introduced Matilda, and here she is, the Cast-Iron Russian Slitch herself:

Customized AK-97-S "Matilda"
Rifle: Damage: 6P; AP: –1; Fire Mode: SA/BF/FA; Recoil Compensation: 4; Magazine Capacity: 38 (Box Mag)
Shotgun: Damage: 7P; AP: -1; Fire Mode: SA; Recoil Compensation: 1; Magazine Capacity: 5 (Tubular Mag)
Integrated Smartgun Link: (Computer Assisted Aiming, just like in RoboCop)
Gas Vent 3: (Forces spent gases against the recoil of the rifle, like a retro-rocket.)
Personalized Grip: (Vat-Grown Walnut Furniture)
Underbarrel Weapon: (Short-Barrelled Defiance T-250 Shotgun)

Well, now that the combat axe is definately a two handed weapon ('twas a little unclear in earlier versions from what I remember), you could get all old school and make the modern version of one of these:

Gun Hatchet

Also, for those runners all into the Steampunk fashion line and the armored clothing therein, just for style points really, with your taser-equipped rapier or saber:

Sword Pistol


Any practical reason? Not as such, no...

typical runner arguing would be:"if i put a lump of metal under my barrel i get 1 point of recoil compensation . . so if i put a knife of the exact same weight down there i get the knife AND the point of recoil compensation too!"
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2369/157229...075255e05_o.jpg
edit: combine with: http://www.cornershot.com/
and: http://gizmodo.com/365738/from-flashlight-...ept-from-magpul

i've seen flintlocks built into a cutlass before... but damn that gun hatchet is nice. i want one now...

Eeeee, I love you! You just clued me into how to make weapons like Violet has in Ultraviolet - machine pistols with blades on them. Of course, her blades come out of the bottom of the grip (stock?), but I don't think any GM would fuss over whether a built in underbarrel weapon is actually under the barrel or in a better place for pure coolness.

...Violet...?

Slivergun upgraded to FA... then high velocity...

Simple combination: Ingram White knight + auto adjusting weight + high velocity. you start with an RC of 7((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) in FA mode, and it just goes up from there based on your preference of mods to get more more more. Heavy barrel and electronic firing recommended. gets you to 9(10). Put that in the hands of someone with a cyber gyromount and 6+ str for a total of 13(14) RC. Load with ammo of preference. Apply bullets liberally when required.

Advanced combination: Ruger Super Warhawk + improved cylander size + firing selection (SA + BF). You now have a burst fire revolver.

For the trollbow users out there: plasteel level 3 arrows with easy breakdown. Or just get them made out of thermite core plasteel.

and my personal favorite
Wackymod: Grapple gun with an underbarrel mounted... grapple gun.

ill do you one better. MGL-12 with additional clip mod. then add an underbarrel grenade launcher. i call it the Trifecta.

"Folks, Come on down to 'ol Dan's Explodin' #$@! Warehouse! We got more grenades, bomb, mortars an' missiles than we know what to do with. I mean, hell, lookit what ol' Jimmy came up with!"