Actually, Flexible Signature adds to the threshold for assensing; get that high enough, and there's no worries.

On what basis are you dismissing astral concealment?


Possibly, but I'd point out that a) you're not a free spirit, and b) you have a sense of fair play.

Here's a question: what happens to the astral signature on an object when it stops being that object? For example, when it is melted down and mixed with other things?

Because I said so. Or maybe it was what I read on page 132 in Street Magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)



Well, signatures don't have such a link, so... I don't think it works. Also, a spirit can IIRC only go back to his homeplane, which would be pretty stoopid to hide the link in. Because, they might not find you, but they know where you live, and stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You seem to be assuming that list is exhaustive. Let's suppose it is. If that's the case, then spirits have no concern about tossing their Wealth power around, because the signature left on the wealth doesn't lead back to them, so no worries in using it.



Even if that were true (I'm not certain, either), spirits can initiate (p. 106, Street Magic), and initiates can access other metaplanes.

Back on topic:

What I'd like to see in Runner's Companion is working character creation rules.

Discuss.

I'm already regretting this, but I take it that you unsubtly (if erronously) imply that the given rules in SR4 do not work?

Well, that may be a bit strong. The rules in SR4 are clunky, slow, obnoxious, frustrating, sometimes mutually-contradictory, poorly laid out, and generally confusing as all get out; but once you get past all that, you can make them sort-of work. I've had an easier time with GURPS and HERO, and so have all the people I know who've compared systems. I've met some people who've claimed to be able to pull off a working character in less than two hours, but I haven't actually seen it.

Something simpler, like the MCCT, would be a huge benefit to the system, and should belong in Runner's Companion.

What do you define as a working character? I can have a character with all 400 BPs spent, gear bought, in 45 minutes. From there, I spend another hour to a few days depending on my free time, tinkering with exact levels and expenditures. But I can do the same thing in HERO and GURPS, so I'm not sure that it's a system dependent variable.

I don't agree, but there will be alternate character generation rules in RC, at least one of which should definitely be faster and more structured than the normal rules.

Fully-tinkered and ready to run. No glaring weaknesses that aren't there by design. A reasonable degree on min-maxing is needed; it doesn't have to be optimized to within an inch of its life, but there does need to be effort made to show how the character covers for his weak areas. And it should have at least a passing resemblance to the backstory.

Oh, good. Are you responsible for it?

Lets see I have owned and played all four editions. SR1 Interesting, clunky, did not run it or play it much. SR2 more of the same. SR3 ditto. SR4 Finally something that works for me, and probably a lot of people who walked away from previous editions. In fact SR4 prompted me to obtain a whole lot of the fluff oriented supplements from previous editions. Its great if you want to keep playing SR3, just don't expect SR4 to go away or be mutated or rather mutilated into something more similar to the older editions mechanically.

I personally really like SR4, one of the few things I miss from SR3 was how their damage system worked, where you could change the power, ap, or damage of a weapon all independent of one another.

One of 'em. I'll be available for kvetching after you've had time to read and digest the book, as usual.

We're not allowed to make SR3-4 comparisons on Dumpshock.

However, I will say that well-designed Template systems are always faster, smoother, and easier than point-buy. They help streamline choices, make balancing characters easier, and more intuitive and easier to grasp. They also provide just about as many options as point-buy does. That's not a comparison, that's just a statement about game design principles.


I'm glad that you're here to catch the kudos as well as the inevitable bitching that will occur. You deserve a lot of credit.

I think that's hyperbole. No one is against comparisons, as long as they educated and constructive. I think the flame wars and baseless ranting is what was barred.

For RH--I'm looking forward to more positive and negative qualities. And the obsidimen-dragon hybrids, those will be fun.

I already have my Dragon character pretty much all set to go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Honestly I really like the new chargen system. It helped to do away with alot of what I was seeing in my games which was the dwarf full shaman who also had the skill equivalent to a medical doctor. I am especially pleased with the fact that if you want to be good at magic you have to buy it now.

Best of all is I have finally seen people take drain now that its rolled the whay It is now. I have my players scared sometimes when I comes to me having to for spirits and sprites.

My only gripe now is how the only way one can defend against magic is with magic still. Basicly if you run up against a mage and your group doesn't have one your totally hosed or vise versa. It just seems lame to have a mage on hand everywhere the group runs around.

It doesn't take long for things to go from "constrcutive criticism" to "flame wars" on any internet forum.


I still see that sometimes. Granted, making magic into a purchasable stat isn't a bad idea, but it could have been done under a template system. Point buy didn't change that at all.

Personally I didn't find the old SR character creation systems any faster than SR4. I wouldn't say that SR4 is significantly faster either, but then the thing that always takes me longest is sorting out gear. Actually that's one of the reasons I tend to make magicians, as I don't tend to faff with 'ware and essence values as much as when making a street sam.

I apologize for breaking a rule I did not know about, however to suggest that this comparison was not already being made is less than truthful.

I think there is no such rule, but there may be a special case for Cain. But best ask a moderator.

I think it is safe to say that SR4's character gen system makes a decided 90 degree turn from the previous three systems, which all had a fair degree of similarity among all three editions.

This could account for some of the confusion with veteran players.

-Siege

I don't think you can infer the quality of character creation rules solely on the time it takes to create a fully functional character. In a game like Wushu you choose three traits and one weakness to define your character. In Nephilim you first have to choose (or roll) in which eras the character lived and what he did back then and then have to stat the character he's currently inhabiting. Needless to say that it's much faster to create a character in Wushu than in Nephilim. But does it mean that Wushu's character creation rules are better than Nephilim? I think it just means that Wushu's character will be more simple and archetypal than Nephilim's.

SR4's basic Build Point system is simply a new iteration of the the Point System that has been around for two editions (with some minor tweaks to accomodate the changes to core mechanics). If, as a veteran player, you were familiar and experienced with the Point System in the SR Companions, the SR4 Build Point system should be no real leap. If, however, you were only familiar with the Priority system which was the default build system in all three previous editions, then the Build Point system does indeed take more getting used to (though like it's predecessors in the SR Companions it allows much more flexibility).

That said we do have plans for new "plug in" content that will speed up chargen significantly using the Build Point system. This will not be in "Runners Companion" but in another product further down the line.

Fastest way to build a character I saw was to take a character (from the web, or the book) and modify it.