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Sweaty Hippo
post Jun 15 2008, 03:56 AM
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I have seen in several threads on here that say that Technomancers are underpowered/suck/etc. when compared to Hackers.
Although I am still relatively new to the rules, I wish to know why. If I must guess, I would assume that part of it is due to the costs of Commlinks and Stock Operating Systems, they can be obtained with Nuyen that would cost fewer BP than a Technomancer spending BP on attributes to gain equivalent benefits for his Living Persona.
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Jaid
post Jun 15 2008, 04:13 AM
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QUOTE (Sweaty Hippo @ Jun 14 2008, 10:56 PM) *
I have seen in several threads on here that say that Technomancers are underpowered/suck/etc. when compared to Hackers.
Although I am still relatively new to the rules, I wish to know why. If I must guess, I would assume that part of it is due to the costs of Commlinks and Stock Operating Systems, they can be obtained with Nuyen that would cost fewer BP than a Technomancer spending BP on attributes to gain equivalent benefits for his Living Persona.

that's part of it. part of it is also the cost of complex forms vs the cost of programs (1.2 BP for a rating 6 program, 18 BP for a rating 6 CF assuming you've already bought resonance to 6 which costs you 75 BP)

basically, a hacker can actually be useful in a role other than pure hacker. they can certainly spend a lot of BPs in hacking, but the difference is that the hacker can also have, for example, a decent body, agility, and reaction, and can choose to get 'ware like skillwires, muscle toner, cerebral booster, etc to make them at least somewhat capable of actually going on a physical shadowrun.

with a technomancer, the only way they are even really particularly decent in the matrix is to have high mental attributes (or at the very least decent ones) and to spend a ton of BP on resonance and complex forms, and an extra skill group that hackers don't have to buy. they pretty much have to rely heavily on sprites, and by the time they're buying the stuff they need in order to be useful in the matrix, they have just about nothing to put into being able to do anything in the meatworld.

this makes it really hard to bring along a TM to just about anything. they typically aren't any good with guns, can't hide or sneak, may not even have the perception skill, probably don't have anything from the athletic group, might have passable social skills (if only by defaulting to charisma) and are in general not a very strong candidate for shadowrunning unless they can shadowrun from home.

of course, it is worth noting that technomancers can superspecialise and in that one area in which they choose to be amazing, they will brutally crush just about anything else that isn't either resonance-based or an AI in that one area of specialty. but it carries with it a tremendous cost.
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Mickle5125
post Jun 15 2008, 04:16 AM
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generally, tms suck because everything they need take buildpoints, and their complex forms are limited at build time. Yeah, with time and karma, TMs will completely own everything that's connected to the matrix, but until they get craptons of karma, a street sam with a half-decent comlink and a handful of programs can match or beat the TM. AND the street sam can kick the crap out of the TM in the real world, too.

::EDIT::
crap... completely outdone by Jaid... T_T
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JoelHalpern
post Jun 15 2008, 04:29 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 15 2008, 12:13 AM) *
that's part of it. part of it is also the cost of complex forms vs the cost of programs (1.2 BP for a rating 6 program, 18 BP for a rating 6 CF assuming you've already bought resonance to 6 which costs you 75 BP)
...


While most of this post seems to accurately capture the issues I have seen raised, this first line overstates one aspect.
Complex Forms cost 1BP per rating, not 3. So rating 6 CF costs 6 BP. (Unless Jaid knows of a hidden cost I missed?)
(6 is still a lot more than 1.2.)

Joel
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Cthulhudreams
post Jun 15 2008, 05:39 AM
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Basically you need to spend a million billion BPs on 'hacking' which leaves you no time for anything else.

However you can make a hideously overpowered drone rigger technomancer which is probably a viable strat, but people rebel at the fact they are best deployed rolling a zillion dice to blow someone away with a recoil free heavy machine gun.
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Sir_Psycho
post Jun 15 2008, 07:22 AM
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Non-technomancy doesn't require high mental stats, because breaking from the system, hacking and computer use is Skill + Program, not skill + Attribute. So anyone can just dump some cash into a good commlink and good programs and can be a competent hacker, while technomancers require spending a whole lot of BP on their resonance attribute, the skills, and the complex forms. Add to this that cyber-ware actually hinders technomancy, they are essentially non-cybered mundanes who can hack, while pretty much any cybered mundane, or even awakened character, can hack just as well as they can.
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FrankTrollman
post Jun 15 2008, 07:36 AM
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The basic rules allow hackers to do many powerful things. They can use multiple commlinks, they can hack through augmented reality without ricking anything at all, they can hack entirely through equipment (which is cheap) instead of skills (which are expensive). A rating 4 Agent costs 2 BP, less than half the cost of buying just one skill point in Hacking, Cybercombat, Computer, or Datasearch.

Hackers can do more when it comes to hacking, they can do it at less personal risk, and they spend less build points doing it.

-Frank
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HentaiZonga
post Jun 15 2008, 06:59 PM
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On the other hand, I've playtested out the stats for a Force 12 Machine Sprite.
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Aaron
post Jun 15 2008, 07:14 PM
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Has anyone analyzed the effectiveness of compiling in this mix? I'm also kinda surprised that nobody's mentioned threading, especially in context of registering.
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HentaiZonga
post Jun 15 2008, 08:15 PM
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A thought I've been seriously considering implementing as a House Rule, is that all Complex Forms are handled precisely using the rules for sorcery.

1. There is a new Skill Group called Coding. It contains the skills Dissonance, Linking, and Threading.

2. Complex Forms have no rating. You buy the CF for 3 BP / 5 Karma. Each time you wish to load a Complex Form in a node, you choose its rating (from 1 to 2xResonance), and then make a Resonance + Threading test to compile the Complex Form. You then resist Fading - Stun if the Rating was at or below your Resonance, or Physical if it was above. All rules regarding hits, rating and so on precisely follows the rules for Spellcasting (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Threading replacing Spellcasting).

3. Multiple Technomancers can cooperate to compile and execute a Complex Form in a node that you are not actually operating in. This requires several hours' preparation, and that at least one Technomancer is present (or has a sprite present) in that node. Everyone rolls Resonance + Linking, and it precisely follows the rules for Ritual Sorcery (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Linking replacing Ritual Sorcery).

4. Technomancers can easily defend against programs and complex forms, reducing their rating by rolling Resonance + Dissonance in a manner identical to Counterspelling (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Dissonance replacing Counterspelling).
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Ryu
post Jun 15 2008, 08:57 PM
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TMs that accept to suck at everything else rule the matrix. Experienced Hacker + Support Operation Services = matrix owned.

There is IMO no sweet spot where a TM can also do B&E with some reliability. So play a hacker.
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Kyoto Kid
post Jun 15 2008, 09:53 PM
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...one of the big issues I have is the way Resonance is treated with regards to implants. All it seems to be is another label for "Magic Attribute" because it is affected the same manner when essence is reduced. As I understand it, TMs are basically an outgrowth of the Otaku. The Otaku not only needed certain implants (ASIST Coverter & Datajack), but did not suffer a detriment to their "innate" abilities from Cyber implantation. If anything they would more likely be prone to becoming one with the machine in both mind and body.

Furthermore, to a degree the Awakened have other ways to compensate MA reduction (Geasa, Foci, Mentor Spirit bonuses, etc.). TMs do not. This makes them good NPCs who work behind the scenes and not very fun to play as a PC as action sequences are still a major component of the game.

Like the awakened, they are also huge Karma sinks in that both Resonance and Submersion have to be improved.

...just my 2 Zlotys worth.
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Ryu
post Jun 15 2008, 10:03 PM
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That issue is made worse by the chargen limits based on response. The sweet spot for any CF rating is resonance, spells are simply bought as such. You can freely select your "want" spells, you need quite a list of programs. Magic can directly compensate for weak physical skills/attributes, the matrix can´t.
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Dumori
post Jun 15 2008, 10:23 PM
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bump the cost of a TM up 2 10-15bp and making so essence dosent reduce resonance should fit more role and bet better at there jobs.
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WeaverMount
post Jun 15 2008, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Jun 15 2008, 03:15 PM) *
A thought I've been seriously considering implementing as a House Rule, is that all Complex Forms are handled precisely using the rules for sorcery.

1. There is a new Skill Group called Coding. It contains the skills Dissonance, Linking, and Threading.

2. Complex Forms have no rating. You buy the CF for 3 BP / 5 Karma. Each time you wish to load a Complex Form in a node, you choose its rating (from 1 to 2xResonance), and then make a Resonance + Threading test to compile the Complex Form. You then resist Fading - Stun if the Rating was at or below your Resonance, or Physical if it was above. All rules regarding hits, rating and so on precisely follows the rules for Spellcasting (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Threading replacing Spellcasting).

3. Multiple Technomancers can cooperate to compile and execute a Complex Form in a node that you are not actually operating in. This requires several hours' preparation, and that at least one Technomancer is present (or has a sprite present) in that node. Everyone rolls Resonance + Linking, and it precisely follows the rules for Ritual Sorcery (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Linking replacing Ritual Sorcery).

4. Technomancers can easily defend against programs and complex forms, reducing their rating by rolling Resonance + Dissonance in a manner identical to Counterspelling (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Dissonance replacing Counterspelling).


This actually gimps TMs really hard. The only thing they had going for them was that they could get astronomical dice pools. This means Maxed TM at char gen will expect lower rated CFs than a hacker can buy.
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Aaron
post Jun 16 2008, 12:10 AM
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QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Jun 15 2008, 03:15 PM) *
A thought I've been seriously considering implementing as a House Rule, is that all Complex Forms are handled precisely using the rules for sorcery.

1. There is a new Skill Group called Coding. It contains the skills Dissonance, Linking, and Threading.

2. Complex Forms have no rating. You buy the CF for 3 BP / 5 Karma. Each time you wish to load a Complex Form in a node, you choose its rating (from 1 to 2xResonance), and then make a Resonance + Threading test to compile the Complex Form. You then resist Fading - Stun if the Rating was at or below your Resonance, or Physical if it was above. All rules regarding hits, rating and so on precisely follows the rules for Spellcasting (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Threading replacing Spellcasting).

3. Multiple Technomancers can cooperate to compile and execute a Complex Form in a node that you are not actually operating in. This requires several hours' preparation, and that at least one Technomancer is present (or has a sprite present) in that node. Everyone rolls Resonance + Linking, and it precisely follows the rules for Ritual Sorcery (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Linking replacing Ritual Sorcery).

4. Technomancers can easily defend against programs and complex forms, reducing their rating by rolling Resonance + Dissonance in a manner identical to Counterspelling (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Dissonance replacing Counterspelling).

Huh. Have you used this system during play at all?
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HentaiZonga
post Jun 16 2008, 10:34 AM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 15 2008, 05:10 PM) *
Huh. Have you used this system during play at all?


A bit; it's worked pretty well so far.

And it doesn't gimp TMs, as they can still easily build a dice pool of [Attribute + 2xResonance] for any CF they want to create. I mean, their CF rating is capped at 2xResonance - if they take Resonance at 6, that's rating 12 programs!
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Ryu
post Jun 16 2008, 10:44 AM
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How do you even come close to 12 hits on the Resonance+Threading test?
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Aaron
post Jun 16 2008, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Jun 16 2008, 05:34 AM) *
A bit; it's worked pretty well so far.

And it doesn't gimp TMs, as they can still easily build a dice pool of [Attribute + 2xResonance] for any CF they want to create. I mean, their CF rating is capped at 2xResonance - if they take Resonance at 6, that's rating 12 programs!

Do you have a PC technomancer, or has it been just NPCs? Does your system make TMs more attractive to your players?

I'm also curious about what problem you encountered that your rules fixes, and how well they fix it.
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Crank
post Jun 16 2008, 04:24 PM
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While the cyberware issue does give Technomancers a slight disadvantage, there isn't any reason a Technomancer can't use a Commlink when needed. This is even stated in the BBB, though it says few do. I haven't played a technomancer character, but if I were to, I'd probably buff my character out for Hacking and/or Cybercombat and would use a commlink for the more mundane things like data search.
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Dr Funfrock
post Jun 16 2008, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (Crank @ Jun 16 2008, 11:24 AM) *
While the cyberware issue does give Technomancers a slight disadvantage, there isn't any reason a Technomancer can't use a Commlink when needed. This is even stated in the BBB, though it says few do. I haven't played a technomancer character, but if I were to, I'd probably buff my character out for Hacking and/or Cybercombat and would use a commlink for the more mundane things like data search.


Which would be great, except that you need a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SET OF SKILLS just to be able to perform that data search. So instead of just paying ungodly amounts of BP, now you are paying ungodly amounts of BP twice just to have the skills needed to operate any web browser which isn't running from inside of your brain.
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kzt
post Jun 16 2008, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (Dr Funfrock @ Jun 16 2008, 10:40 AM) *
Which would be great, except that you need a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SET OF SKILLS just to be able to perform that data search. So instead of just paying ungodly amounts of BP, now you are paying ungodly amounts of BP twice just to have the skills needed to operate any web browser which isn't running from inside of your brain.

Yeah, but with only 2000 Karma you are a really powerful character.....
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paws2sky
post Jun 16 2008, 04:58 PM
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I've tried writing up a couple different Technomancers (I have yet to play one) and the things that really seem to kick my butt are:

BP cost of Complex Forms
Bring them in line with the magicians they're (apparently) supposed to be emulating.
My Suggestion: Standardize the cost of CFs to 3 BP / 5 Karma. This brings them into line with magicians and makes them less of a Karma/BP black hole.


The "two sets of skills for the same thing" problem.
I understand where they were going with it, but it seems a bit too over the top to make it so that I need to buy Data Search twice to be able to used my persona or a link to, well, Data Search. It just too harsh.
My Suggestion: Hand wave this away, allow a TM to use his/her regular skills with a commlink or persona.


The most effective TM is a sprite summoner.
Sprites, like Spirits, are really freaking good. That's not the problem. The problem is that spirites are so much more effective than running conventional hacking (or TM hacking).
My Suggestion: Implement the above suggestions. Hopefully sprites will become less of a must-have if TMs feel they can effectively do other things.


-paws
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MaxHunter
post Jun 16 2008, 05:54 PM
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Maybe there are some alternative rulesfix to these issues in Unwired.. I certainly hope there are. This one extra reason for really wanting that book.

Cheers

Max the hopeful
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DireRadiant
post Jun 16 2008, 06:28 PM
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I guess I don't count as people! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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