I have seen in several threads on here that say that Technomancers are underpowered/suck/etc. when compared to Hackers.
Although I am still relatively new to the rules, I wish to know why. If I must guess, I would assume that part of it is due to the costs of Commlinks and Stock Operating Systems, they can be obtained with Nuyen that would cost fewer BP than a Technomancer spending BP on attributes to gain equivalent benefits for his Living Persona.

that's part of it. part of it is also the cost of complex forms vs the cost of programs (1.2 BP for a rating 6 program, 18 BP for a rating 6 CF assuming you've already bought resonance to 6 which costs you 75 BP)

basically, a hacker can actually be useful in a role other than pure hacker. they can certainly spend a lot of BPs in hacking, but the difference is that the hacker can also have, for example, a decent body, agility, and reaction, and can choose to get 'ware like skillwires, muscle toner, cerebral booster, etc to make them at least somewhat capable of actually going on a physical shadowrun.

with a technomancer, the only way they are even really particularly decent in the matrix is to have high mental attributes (or at the very least decent ones) and to spend a ton of BP on resonance and complex forms, and an extra skill group that hackers don't have to buy. they pretty much have to rely heavily on sprites, and by the time they're buying the stuff they need in order to be useful in the matrix, they have just about nothing to put into being able to do anything in the meatworld.

this makes it really hard to bring along a TM to just about anything. they typically aren't any good with guns, can't hide or sneak, may not even have the perception skill, probably don't have anything from the athletic group, might have passable social skills (if only by defaulting to charisma) and are in general not a very strong candidate for shadowrunning unless they can shadowrun from home.

of course, it is worth noting that technomancers can superspecialise and in that one area in which they choose to be amazing, they will brutally crush just about anything else that isn't either resonance-based or an AI in that one area of specialty. but it carries with it a tremendous cost.

generally, tms suck because everything they need take buildpoints, and their complex forms are limited at build time. Yeah, with time and karma, TMs will completely own everything that's connected to the matrix, but until they get craptons of karma, a street sam with a half-decent comlink and a handful of programs can match or beat the TM. AND the street sam can kick the crap out of the TM in the real world, too.

::EDIT::
crap... completely outdone by Jaid... T_T

While most of this post seems to accurately capture the issues I have seen raised, this first line overstates one aspect.
Complex Forms cost 1BP per rating, not 3. So rating 6 CF costs 6 BP. (Unless Jaid knows of a hidden cost I missed?)
(6 is still a lot more than 1.2.)

Joel

Basically you need to spend a million billion BPs on 'hacking' which leaves you no time for anything else.

However you can make a hideously overpowered drone rigger technomancer which is probably a viable strat, but people rebel at the fact they are best deployed rolling a zillion dice to blow someone away with a recoil free heavy machine gun.

Non-technomancy doesn't require high mental stats, because breaking from the system, hacking and computer use is Skill + Program, not skill + Attribute. So anyone can just dump some cash into a good commlink and good programs and can be a competent hacker, while technomancers require spending a whole lot of BP on their resonance attribute, the skills, and the complex forms. Add to this that cyber-ware actually hinders technomancy, they are essentially non-cybered mundanes who can hack, while pretty much any cybered mundane, or even awakened character, can hack just as well as they can.

The basic rules allow hackers to do many powerful things. They can use multiple commlinks, they can hack through augmented reality without ricking anything at all, they can hack entirely through equipment (which is cheap) instead of skills (which are expensive). A rating 4 Agent costs 2 BP, less than half the cost of buying just one skill point in Hacking, Cybercombat, Computer, or Datasearch.

Hackers can do more when it comes to hacking, they can do it at less personal risk, and they spend less build points doing it.

-Frank

On the other hand, I've playtested out the stats for a Force 12 Machine Sprite.

Has anyone analyzed the effectiveness of compiling in this mix? I'm also kinda surprised that nobody's mentioned threading, especially in context of registering.

A thought I've been seriously considering implementing as a House Rule, is that all Complex Forms are handled precisely using the rules for sorcery.

1. There is a new Skill Group called Coding. It contains the skills Dissonance, Linking, and Threading.

2. Complex Forms have no rating. You buy the CF for 3 BP / 5 Karma. Each time you wish to load a Complex Form in a node, you choose its rating (from 1 to 2xResonance), and then make a Resonance + Threading test to compile the Complex Form. You then resist Fading - Stun if the Rating was at or below your Resonance, or Physical if it was above. All rules regarding hits, rating and so on precisely follows the rules for Spellcasting (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Threading replacing Spellcasting).

3. Multiple Technomancers can cooperate to compile and execute a Complex Form in a node that you are not actually operating in. This requires several hours' preparation, and that at least one Technomancer is present (or has a sprite present) in that node. Everyone rolls Resonance + Linking, and it precisely follows the rules for Ritual Sorcery (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Linking replacing Ritual Sorcery).

4. Technomancers can easily defend against programs and complex forms, reducing their rating by rolling Resonance + Dissonance in a manner identical to Counterspelling (with Rating replacing Force, Resonance replacing Magic, and Dissonance replacing Counterspelling).

TMs that accept to suck at everything else rule the matrix. Experienced Hacker + Support Operation Services = matrix owned.

There is IMO no sweet spot where a TM can also do B&E with some reliability. So play a hacker.

...one of the big issues I have is the way Resonance is treated with regards to implants. All it seems to be is another label for "Magic Attribute" because it is affected the same manner when essence is reduced. As I understand it, TMs are basically an outgrowth of the Otaku. The Otaku not only needed certain implants (ASIST Coverter & Datajack), but did not suffer a detriment to their "innate" abilities from Cyber implantation. If anything they would more likely be prone to becoming one with the machine in both mind and body.

Furthermore, to a degree the Awakened have other ways to compensate MA reduction (Geasa, Foci, Mentor Spirit bonuses, etc.). TMs do not. This makes them good NPCs who work behind the scenes and not very fun to play as a PC as action sequences are still a major component of the game.

Like the awakened, they are also huge Karma sinks in that both Resonance and Submersion have to be improved.

...just my 2 Zlotys worth.

That issue is made worse by the chargen limits based on response. The sweet spot for any CF rating is resonance, spells are simply bought as such. You can freely select your "want" spells, you need quite a list of programs. Magic can directly compensate for weak physical skills/attributes, the matrix can´t.

bump the cost of a TM up 2 10-15bp and making so essence dosent reduce resonance should fit more role and bet better at there jobs.

This actually gimps TMs really hard. The only thing they had going for them was that they could get astronomical dice pools. This means Maxed TM at char gen will expect lower rated CFs than a hacker can buy.

Huh. Have you used this system during play at all?

A bit; it's worked pretty well so far.

And it doesn't gimp TMs, as they can still easily build a dice pool of [Attribute + 2xResonance] for any CF they want to create. I mean, their CF rating is capped at 2xResonance - if they take Resonance at 6, that's rating 12 programs!

How do you even come close to 12 hits on the Resonance+Threading test?

Do you have a PC technomancer, or has it been just NPCs? Does your system make TMs more attractive to your players?

I'm also curious about what problem you encountered that your rules fixes, and how well they fix it.

While the cyberware issue does give Technomancers a slight disadvantage, there isn't any reason a Technomancer can't use a Commlink when needed. This is even stated in the BBB, though it says few do. I haven't played a technomancer character, but if I were to, I'd probably buff my character out for Hacking and/or Cybercombat and would use a commlink for the more mundane things like data search.

Which would be great, except that you need a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SET OF SKILLS just to be able to perform that data search. So instead of just paying ungodly amounts of BP, now you are paying ungodly amounts of BP twice just to have the skills needed to operate any web browser which isn't running from inside of your brain.

Yeah, but with only 2000 Karma you are a really powerful character.....

I've tried writing up a couple different Technomancers (I have yet to play one) and the things that really seem to kick my butt are:

BP cost of Complex Forms
Bring them in line with the magicians they're (apparently) supposed to be emulating.

My Suggestion: Standardize the cost of CFs to 3 BP / 5 Karma. This brings them into line with magicians and makes them less of a Karma/BP black hole.

The "two sets of skills for the same thing" problem.
I understand where they were going with it, but it seems a bit too over the top to make it so that I need to buy Data Search twice to be able to used my persona or a link to, well, Data Search. It just too harsh.

My Suggestion: Hand wave this away, allow a TM to use his/her regular skills with a commlink or persona.

The most effective TM is a sprite summoner.
Sprites, like Spirits, are really freaking good. That's not the problem. The problem is that spirites are so much more effective than running conventional hacking (or TM hacking).

My Suggestion: Implement the above suggestions. Hopefully sprites will become less of a must-have if TMs feel they can effectively do other things.

-paws

Maybe there are some alternative rulesfix to these issues in Unwired.. I certainly hope there are. This one extra reason for really wanting that book.

Cheers

Max the hopeful

I guess I don't count as people!

I guess I should have mentioned that my group did away with the whole two skills do the same thing, but honestly I forgot all about that rule. Honestly, its probably one of the dumbest rules in the whole book. I could understand that the TM computer skills are special and a mundane cannot serve as an instructor to a TM or vice versa. But the idea that you can't use mundane applications without having a separate skill is so obnoxiously silly as to defy all logic. Imagine a new technomancer that did not take command and edit and therefore being completely inept at sending a simple email or at programming his DVR (or 2070 equivalent). I guess he could always use threading, but the idea of a TM sending a flurry of emails and risking passing out to do so... ::shakes head::

I just hope Unwired brings some sanity back into the situation.

>they can still easily build a dice pool of [Attribute + 2xResonance]
How are they getting that many hits? Without submerging or exceptional skill they will be rolling 14 dice with in specialty. It's also worth mentioning you house ruled matrix tests to include an attribute. Did I mistake your rules?

Nope, you're not people. You're a person.

-paws

The biggest problem is that no one seems to "get" the TM rules, while everyone "gets" the Magic rules. So bringing them in line gives everyone one system to learn instead of two. If they were COMPLETELY different systems, this would be fine, but they're similar enough to feel like the same system without actually being the same system. This is almost always a bad idea, from a game design perspective.

I agree with your point here about similar but different. It's also why the actual hacking parts of the Technomancer rules are problematic: their section in Awakened World just says "use all the previous rules, but with this fragging huge list of exceptions and changes".

They feel like a badly written house rule bolt on, not a core part of the system.

Heck, not having slightly different versions of the same rules was, as I understood it, the reason for streamlining Hermetics and Shamans in the magic rules.

Perhaps I have a much different interpretation of how technomancers work, but I think that they can be just as effective as a normal hacker, if not more so. First off, I am not going to argue about dice pool size. Ever. Its very plain and simple to see that techno's will never match (at least till possibly unwired...) the raw statistical power of a well tweaked hacker. However, I personally think that the true power of a technomancer is in how they interact with their environment. Their simple absence of a commlink is a huge boon in a world that is otherwise obsessed with them. Most people seeing a technomancer will simple assume that they are either using an internal comm, or some mini-comm hidden in a pocket (Or in the case of a smart-shadowrunner type, the technomancer may simple wear, but not use, a comm). This allows the techno the freedom to do ANYTHING HE/SHE WANTS without appearing odd or out of place in public. When you can control technology with a thought, this allows for a lot. For example, how many simple device malfunctions does it take before someone notices a trend? After all, how many devices break down or malfunction every day? How many "accidents" occur due to computerized error now? How about in 2070, with its larger emphasis on the wireless world? Even assuming that someone is trying to trace a technomancer electronically, what are the odds that they are going to look specifically (and properly identify) the technomancer as the hacker? After all, the average person/computer criminal uses a commlink. Which leads me to the real point of this: the true power in a technomancer is not their ability to overpower the matrix. It is their ability to blend into normal society, get into a site and shoulder surf. It is their ability to access the matrix without hardware, and thusly without suspicion. After all, a technomancer dosen't need to overpower a target system when he or she can simply get the passwords for it without suspicion.

Well, Technomancers already use their Attributes for their Persona stats, remember.

Here's how threading works, broken all the way down:

1. Technomancer chooses the Complex Form he wishes to Thread.
2. Technomancer choose a Rating for that Complex Form, up to (2 x Resonance).
3. Technomancer rolls Resonance + Threading, capping hits at the CF's chosen Rating.
4. Technomancer rolls Resonance + Willpower to resist Fading.

Hrm. I wonder what would happen if step 3 were an Extended Test?

Or, since we're already using the house rule that program use is a Logic+Hacking test, capped by the Program's rating, I wonder how it would work to have Technomancers simply use Resonance + Threading, capped by their CF's chosen Rating?

how does this result in more hits (>5 on average) and a hacker can buy at char gen. That's my issue. Frank uses a similar system, except that you can load CFs you know at a rating equal to your resonance . You can use threading to get raise the rating of any CF where you know it or not.

A TM is not usually a good choice as a character because he can only handle the matrix. A dedicated TM is WAY better in the matrix than a hacker. Sprites are the key, mostly via using Support Operation services. Besides the obvious use for hacking on the fly, there is also the end-of-all-things-in-one-Attack matrix combat. Or some uses of Command.

Anyone building a TM better knows what he is doing, as after chargen, the cost for buying everything is suddenly WAY higher. A full upgrade for the living persona will usually involve buying resonance and mental attributes, there will be CFs missing, and after the upgrade, you want to increase all/most CF ratings. And the gapping holes left by chargen are still there.

-Wait for Unwired. I´m almost certain it will take care of some matters.
-Kill Support Operation in its current form. Balance is for everyone.
-Make CFs way cheaper, possibly with fixed cost and rating = resonance
-Remove the function of resonance as cap for the matrix attributes.
-Incorporate the changes that come with Unwired.

The other viable option for TMs is to twink out for matrix stealth. They can pump that high enough nothing can find them. This means they don't have to worry about matrix combat. Ignoring those skills and CFs saves a lot of BP.

The other option is to run Franks rules. It's kind of funny but franks runs are why I'm most excited about unwired. Either unwired will be amazing and save the SR4 matrix rules, or I get to completely give up on it and run Frank's

I'm people!

Of course not. People have four canine teeth.

I have a TM in my game and I treat her like JudgementLoaf suggests. For a TM to come into her own, the GM and player must have an understanding, if the TM looks the part of a regular Joe Shmoe no one except for the very well informed is going to suspect her.

The thing is that Sprites, with the notable exception of the Machine Sprite, really aren't that good at anything. While they can achieve large dice pools on individual actions, the RAW of the Matrix rules requires one to jump back and forth quickly from one program to another, and individual Sprites just don't have the ability to do that. Let's consider the situation where you just want to hack into a hidden node and steal some encrypted data without setting off the data bomb. No active IC or security hackers for now, just entirely passive defenses.

By RAW, we have to:

• Find the Node. This is a Scan test, and it's available only as an optional CF on Courier or Crack Sprites.
• Find out What the Node will Listen to. This is a Sniffer test, which is to be found only on a Data Sprite as an optional CF.
• Get the Node to Listen to us. This is a Spoof test, which is available only as an optional CF for Crack Sprites. We can't even get this far without a Rating 6 Crack Sprite because we already need 2 optional CFs.
• Hack into the Node. This is an Exploit test. Fortunately, we have one of those on our Rating 6 Crack Sprite. Moving on.
• Find The File. This is a Browse test. And... we're boned. We could pull it off a Courier Sprite with an optional or an automatic on a Data, but neither of those Sprites can actually log themselves in to the system. We could create a new set of login protocols that they could use if we had something in there with Edit, which requires another optional CF on the Crack Sprite (total minimum Rating: 9).
• Check the File for Traps. Before the file can be moved it needs to be checked for data traps. That's an Analyze test, which is on our Crack Sprite, and also to be found on a Courier Sprite, but not on a Data Sprite interestingly enough.
• Defuse the Data Bomb. That's a Defuse test, which is available only as an optional CF for Data Sprites.
• Transfer File. That's an Edit test, which is available on Crack or Data Sprites.
• Decrypt File. This is a Decrypt test, which is available on a Data Sprite automatically.

So our minimum requirements to hack into a node and find and retrieve a passively protected file is a Rating 9 Crack Sprite and a Rating 6 Registered Data Sprite. Hope you like Fading!

Now in practice, most people hand wave a lot of these tests, so the fact that so many tests just cannot be performed by any particular Sprite doesn't come up in games. But as written you just can't even make an attempt to steal data with your sprites without taking potentially lethal physical fading. Engaging in Matrix Combat is even more of a joke, did you know that Fault Sprites are technically incapable of targeting enemy icons? It's true, they are incapable of even defaulting on Matrix Perception tests, meaning that they are incapable of telling friend from foe, or even identifying that there is a target to declare an attack against.

Machine Sprites are awesome, because they don't really engage with these hyper-specialized Matrix tests at all. But the others are all made of fail, because not one of them has a complete list of CFs that you would physically require to actually complete any Matrix related task.

-Frank

See, this here is my single biggest issue with the matrix rules: How incredibly poor the explanation of them is. I've read the chapter front to back, and friends of mine have gone over it. We've discussed it. We've house ruled it... and I still didn't know half of the stuff that Frank just explained. How do you write a set of rules so badly that five people can go through them independantly and miss all of that?

I mean just having that list in the rules, as part of an example hack, would make life so much easier. It wouldn't change the Techno rules being crap, but it would make it vaguely possible that people might at least understand how hacking works.

Well, to be fair, sprites can be used as intellingent multi-purpose programs rather than agents. They are pretty good at replacing many CFs.

You only need CFs for constant-use programs (to save services) and defensive programs (always-on).

I used to think these two steps were necessary, too. Turns out I was wrong; these steps are only necessary for spoofing.


It isn't in the book, but have you taken a listen to the Audio Hacking Demo yet?

Actually... make that 11... my group spends an hour re-reading the rules on hacking every time we do it... and we never manage to do it the same way twice because we get lost trying to make sense... and we do it with hackers... no TM's even. I liked VR 2.0 or SR 3's matrix over the wireless nightmare.

Would a new cheat sheet be in order?

From this example, they use Scan but not Spoof.
(In fact, Spoof says that you have to have seen the signature of whatever you are pretending to be. If Spoof were required it would be very difficult to get in to anything.)

The other thought is that everything is presumed to be connected on the Matrix.
So could you search for the node on the Matrix instead?

Thank you,
Joel

Whether you require Spoof or not is entirely at the discretion of the people who designed the system you are attempting to break into. If you need to Spoof, you also need to Sniffer in order to find out what it is that you need to be Spoofing.

And since it is defender discretion, and this is a hidden node, it's a fair bet that you will in fact have to spoof in.

-Frank

Again, I used to think that, too, but after a number of messages back and forth with the devs, I was told that a device can be hacked even if it's not supposed to be taking other traffic. So no, you don't need to sniff or spoof if you're doing a direct hack.

I am aware that it may very well work like that after Unwired is published, and you would be in a better position to know that than I.

But we are relegated to talking about pre-unwired hacking, using only the rules in the basic book. And in the basic book it is quite clear that you can arrange an architecture where an outside source cannot communicate with a device without being on the accepted list already. This is one of the very few things in the BBB that actually is clear, and while I have severe reservations about it and have no problem with you guys retconning it out in Unwired, that's not really relevant for this particular discussion.

-Frank

Nope, this is all information that I got over a year ago from Rob. I even posted about it on DS (do your own search, though, I've got a guest coming over). [EDIT: on second thought, FAQ you.]


Again, I'm talking about pre-Unwired hacking. Out of curiosity, could I get a citation or two to what you're talking about?

Here we're talking about Tiered Systems from page 223. No Spoof, no access.

But we are also talking about the Linking rules on page 212:

Again, it's really very clear. If you link your devices, then someone can only hack into one by Spoofing themselves as the other.

Anything the FAQ says about Subscription is pretty much completely irrelevant because in this case the rules set aside the possibility of Linking and Tiered Systems both of which make it so that a Spoof is the only possibility for a prospective hack attempt. It doesn't mean that every system will be set up that way, but it does mean that any hacker who can't Sniffer/Spoof a node can be made to auto-fail a hacking attempt with an architecture choice.

Doesn't affect Hackers much, because they always just buy all the programs at the same rating and forget about it, but it hurts Technomancers a lot.

-Frank