I've been trying to design a technomancer, and reading the various threads about them.
(One-on-one game I have agreed to GM, I am providing the matrix NPC, and the player as asked for a TM. I want to keep the team NPCs to the same starting level as the player.)

It looks like the key is to count on using Sprites for any action where you don't need a lot of hits, and you don't have to have the CF handy no matter what.
So, things like Scan, and Edit, seem to work fine via sprites.
Obviously, Attack better be a CF.

It looks like I could actually use a Sprite for Exploit, but for feel / style, I want that to be the TMs actual focus. So he has to have the CF.
Presumably Stealth is necessary (as you don't get any warning when you need it.)
Similarly, since you use Analyze just to see, it seems you need that.

The three questions I had were:
Armor: If you are going to use it at all, it better be an actual CF. But is it worth having?
Command: Does he need this to instruct his car to go somewhere? I'm not talking about jumping in, just directing the Van to go somewhere. It seems he shouldn't need it for driving. What else does it help with?
Browse: It seems that by the book he could summon a Sprite when he wants to browse. But it feels so painful to have a technomancer who can't actually look for information directly?

For now, I will assume Aaron's reading that I don't need Sniffer / Spoof.

What other CFs does the TM need to have himself. (As opposed to low grade threading, or calling a temporary Sprite. (Registered Sprites take time, so I don't want to assume I always have the right one handy.)

Thanks,
Joel

PS: Yes, it is very tempting to solve the whole question by switching to Frank's Matrix rules, but for many reasons I would prefer not to do that if I can avoid it for that game.

Only if you intend on trying to win (as opposed to fleeing) cyber-fights.


Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. Also yes.


Again, how long to you intend to hang around in a fight? You usually have a little time to run as IC that runs on an alert needs to load up programs first. Armor isn't a bad investment, though, so it's going to depend on your focus.


Command is used to control devices from your (living) persona. Think of it like a remote-control interface.


Don't dismiss those CFs too quickly. Sure, you don't need them for hacking, but if you just need to send a device a single command (like telling a lock to open or a drone to return to base), the sniffing and spoofing can be faster and safer.


His rules are fine, but they're pretty high-resolution and place an emphasis on the Matrix in terms of time and energy that I personally find too high. [EDIT: on closer reading, I also disagree with some of the ways technology and networking are portrayed as working.]

Thanks for the reply. You raise some good points I have to think about. (Skipping Attack and Armor would free up quite a bit.)
With Spoof, I guess what I am missing is how I would get the ID I have to spoof. It seems that in order to spoof a lock, I would have to see someone open it, and then before they move on get a good lock at them so I could spoof them.
That seems a bit of a corner case. (The rule as written makes sense. It just seems to make it hard to apply the Spoof program / form.)

(Sniffer / Decrypt presumably would be particularly useful for eavesdropping. That seems to be a case where I can call a Sprite.)

Joel

PS: The other aspect is that if I use Sprites for all Scan / Sniffer / Decrypt operations, I can probably skip the EW skill completely. Is that too foolish?

Lack of errata is not the same as proof of concept. Casting Analyze Device on a knife to make the knife more effective in combat is also a rational interpretation - one that I again reject. Using this rationale, we could take a rock. We could attach an RFID tag to this rock. Then we could use a sprite's Analyze on the rock. Now every time I do anything with the rock - kill someone, pick my teeth, go bowling, etc - I would gain bonus dice because my sprite is telling me all about the properties of the rock. In a nutshell, no. Knowing more about my rock does not enable me to hit you more accurately with it. Analyze is for technical objects, or doing technical things, or flying complex aircraft, or whatever. Not stabbing people or shooting them.
Similarly, "They didn't errata it fast enough" is a false defense, because they also didn't errata Bloodzilla right away. Just for example.

You can interpret the rule however you want, but I'm not compelled to accept a retarded implementation of rules simply because someone hasn't stuck their finger in the dike yet.

Can't a mancer substitute less often needed CF as programs running on an ordinary link? he cann have the all-five superlink for 78K, use it for everyday hacking, keep some CFs to thread on top of them when the shite hits the ventilator, and he's flexible enough ... to pimp his skills a little, he can register a machine sprite and have it to an extended service diagnosing said link, effetively giving himself + (sprite*2/3) dice for all his actions with said link, so he doesn't feel too ineffective.

Same goes for his weapons and other important gear, really. I recommend a tricked-out assault rifle for open combat, a tricked-out NeMax für infiltration work as primary arm, and a vibro knife as secondary, all being diagnosed for extra dice, so he doesn't need to push his skills too high. Also, an emotitoy is a must (and has to be diagnosed too for extra dice). He really needs to invest most remaining BP into infiltration and athletics, since that's the only skill groups (besides martial arts, which, as a non-priamry combatant, he propably won't need) where his diagnosis sprite won't do him much good.

Of course that build entirely depends on whether a TM can use his hacking skills group with ordinary commlinks, and doesn't need to buy the skills twice (hacking-TM and hacking for people). The rules seem a bit ... foggy ... as to that. So, can they?

As a GM, I wouldn't have my TM buy those skills twice.. seems redundant. I think it absurd the notion that a TechnoMancer could not also use regular hacking skills.. I think I remember a chapter introduction where that guy used to work for some corp and they killed his girl doing technomancer experiments on them.. How I understand it, most technomancers were normal before gaining that power.. Why wouldn't they know how to use a comlink?? In same chapter intro, I believe the girl was a computer person for said corp.. She had to know what she was doing before her power manifested.. Technomancy did not come about till after the crash.. How in god's name did those people use computers until then??

They can use commlinks just as well as other people without the skill...
And I disagree that the split doesn't make sense, it makes perfect sense, one way is about knowledge and logic (the mundane way) and the needed equipment is a commlink, the other way works through intuition and instinct and you need a technomancers brain (in your head and working)...
Now I can see why you would rule the skills are the same, but that would be because no one wants to pay twice for the same skills, but I believe it does make perfect sense...

I rule that the skills are halved to the area you don't work in normally so a TM with electronic 4 would only have electronics 2 when using a link or vice versa.

That could work..

It make TMs i bit better at normal hacking but not gods at both. Should it round up or down is the only factor atm.

05 Quality
40 Resonance 5 (exactly this amount IMO)
42 Compiling 5 Registering 5 (+spec)
--- Living persona + virtual friends

30 Cracking 3
20 Electronics 2
30 CFs at rating=response: Analyse, Exploit, Stealth, Browse, Edit, Armor
--- Now he can use the living persona and hack a visible node on his own.

167 BP while buying everything at chargen that is expensive later. I´d build an orc with high mental stats, and max out on the number of CFs. Consider Attack and Sniffer (one-on-one sessions for a hacker will have more advanced network security than usual games). Support Operation used on Spoof permits you to effectivly control the enemy drones, and you don´t need to hack a door in order to pass through. Once Unwired brings security logs, Spoof leaves less traces.

No EW is definitly possible right now, but I´d wait for Unwired before walking that route.

"Mmm, that's delicious!"
"And just look at that shine!"

The trick is to get the access ID (with a single net hit on a Matrix Perception Test), which is easier or harder depending on where the source you'll be impersonating is. If it's present (like a rigger in a vehicle), you can just find the rigger's node and make the Matrix Perception Test to get the access ID. If the expected source is remote, then you'll have to track its traffic back to where it's coming from and get the access ID that way. Note that the acquisition of the access ID can be done in legwork, too.

Hackers <> Technomancers
TM|Hackers = Matrix

If you consider TMs as people who focus on controlling matrix Devices directly, and Hackers as people who do Matrix then you can get a sense of the difference between them, and why it isn't the best thing in trying to shoehorn a TM as a Hacker.

Think of the TM as the person who can manage any bit of Hardware that remotely has any Matrix use. And hackers as Software specialist.

The Hacker|Software person can do great stuff with the entire Matrix as a playground. They can use the software to get hardware to do stuff.

The TM|Hardware person excels at controlling devices, and can use devices to play with the entire Matrix.

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/flash-tub/...g-cartoon-2.php
This is what I think of when I think of a Technomancer/Hacker.

Just a hypothetical question: If I were to house rule that essence loss did not effect resonance for TMs, would it break anything? It would give TMs the ability to boost their base stats, and chip some skills, which might make them a bit more well rounded. What's the down-side? Does this lead to the becoming too overpowering after a moderate amount of karma, or would it just bring them to parity?

The biggest exploit I can think of is rigging. Machine spirits and all the rigging ware would get really huge really quick.

I think that would work well. The higher BP cost for resonance and CFs will still balance their extra abilities. You might want to rule that tech advantages for hackers (like the math SPU) don´t work for technomancers, so that hacker have a way of keeping up.

Ok, I've seen lots of people discussing pros and cons about technomancers and discussing what tasks TMs can be good at... but what I haven't seen are actual builds of TMs that are good. Anyone have a built TM that doesn't fail at life?

What does that even mean?

Not being confrontational, just honestly have no idea what this particular complaint entails. What makes a rule set "high resolution?"

-Frank

They are The Ones, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

At least 720 lines per paragraph!

The rules seem pretty clear to me that a TM has to buy standard hacking skills separately from his TM hacking skills. The two do not overlap, a TM can't teach a mundane to hack, and a TM can't learn from non-TMs or tutorsofts. Similarly you cannot thread regular programs, only CFs can be threaded.

Emotitoys and empathy software are broken even without Diagnosis, so that's a whole other debate.

It also appears that I am not alone in considering that Diagnosis does not improve the non-electronic functionality of a weapon, hence does not contribute to shooting or stabbing skills. Your insistence that things like a Smartlink can be made to work better through Diagnosis, and thus provide more dice, is the only thing supporting your TMs are overpowered argument. I have already covered my opinion on this, and while that doesn't disprove your own theories, neither does your interpretation convince me.



There are a few problems with this.

Threading is going to be tricky with the electronics group at only 2
Similarly, your dice pool for all computer related shenanigans is pretty poor at only 7 (Electronics 2+CF 5)
You've not taken into account regular attributes, and while you don't necessarily need to spend all 200, you'll probably need to in order to get your living persona at least competitive with a hacker's, and having a high enough charisma and willpower to take advantage of compiling without being knocked out. Assuming you pare it down to 190BPs, you still only have 43BPs for contacts, gear and other running skills (infiltration, a modicum of social tact, some combat skill).

It's not impossible to make a TM, but overall you get more versatility and immediate power playing a hacker, at the expense of (distant) future potential. If that's the way you want to roll. go for it, but I'm just addressing the OP with my criticism of the way TMs are designed and costed.

Things may improve a good deal with Unwired, as TMs might have far more ways to interact with stuff like digital ghosts than hackers, more ways to use sprites, more uses of threading, and more effects of threading, but in the core RAW TMs make a very poor investment IMO.

TMs should use their "official" comlink to run agents, which can in turn run all kinds of programs. A few low-rated CFs are cheap to buy ingame, I´d not bother with 100k¥+ for a complete link and two other skillgroups.

As for the Diagnostics power, the German limit to purely electronic devices, explicitly forbidding vehicles and guns, does make a lot of sense.

The different version of skills that TMs have should work well with comlinks, unless the German wording is "special" on that occasion, too. No teaching, no talent softs, but no limit on usage.