Not entirely. A bipod needs to be braced against something somewhat solid, and pressed down. Weighing it down with sandbags is certainly one way of providing these necessary conditions.

So when you change the barrel, you aren't just throwing out the old barrel and getting a new barrel just out of the package? Instead, you have a number of old barrels you rotate between, to give each one a chance to cool before reusing it?

Generally you have one spare barrel on hand, generally carried in its own bag. Of course many gunners design other methods of carrying it. Technically the asst. gunner is supposed to carry it, however then you risk losing a vital piece of equipment if he bites it. Don't mistake replacing with disposing. You switch them out allowing the other to cool. You generally only do this in the defense or if you are providing a base of fire. In the assault you generally do not mess with this.

IIRC, the Canadian Army Manual (1944 Edition) suggested dropping the hot barrel of a Bren Gun in a trench of "As clean as possible water" for rapid reuse.

No, you also use cyclic on FPLs, whether the target is close or not. You are forcing the people going to close assault to run through your grazing fire (and hence the vast majority get shot). You shoot until told to stop, you run out of ammo, the barrel melts, or you are killed. You also have the MG on a sandbagged tripod using a T&E. However, this would be extremely rarely used in game play.

The rules on multiple targets for machineguns in SR tend to suck, but in reality they seem to be rarely used.

I know AK owners who have set their wood handguards on fire. . . . And the crappy Russian laminated lumber doesn't handle heat really well.

Still bet it took more heat to do that than what the Polymer Handguards on the M-16 Family are able to deal with.

But the fact of the matter is that if you abuse something, it will stop working. It's how much abuse it can take before failing that's the issue.

Raygun has a reputation for doing his homework, so I won't completely dismiss the statement out-of-hand, but the few LMGs I have fired were all easily manageable on a bipod.

I have heard from ex-infantry guys that the M2 .50 HMG almost requires sandbags when on a tripod.

The bipod doesn't directly mitigate recoil like, say, a muzzle brake does. What it does mean that you have to wrestle with the weapon a lot less, so the handling is much easier. You could get some of the same advantage by resting your LMG on any stable surface (a wall, or a large rock, for example). The bipod just makes it much simpler to do. And if you do have time to weigh the bipod down, it will directly help with recoil, yes.

Also note that old water cooled guns like the vickers can basically fire continuously as long as the radiator is topped up. For example, when Browning demonstrated his machine gun to the US army in 1917, he fired two burst out of it, each burst being twenty thousand rounds long.

Yes some of the old water cooled MG's of WWI fired many millions of rounds.

Vickers MG Wiki





WMS

IIRC I remember reading somewhere of a Vickers machine gun during the Great War that was fired pretty much continuously for 12 hours or so and managed to get through 120,000 rounds. They weren't called the the Queen of the Battlefield for nothing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Complete bastard to manhandle about thanks to the weight so you were never going to use them charging and storming places but sited in a defensive position or giving suppressing fire and they were the business.

Edit: And Wearz posts whilst I'm writing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Tru dat. An acquaintance of mine in the RAF Regiment said they used to cut grass stalks at engagement ranges with their SA80-family SAWs. So not *all* machine guns are unrifled. Some of the applications of the machine gun do require decent accuracy. When you're grazing fire over the heads of your advancing infantry, you don't want unstable, loose rounds falling short in your own people, and when you're spreading your beaten zone over the blind side of a reverse slope to suppress 'em, you need a good degree of predictability. Yes, machine guns on tripods can do indirect fire... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That wouldn't crack the barrel if it were red hot?


Also, those water cooled MGs mentioned later in this thread sound like t3h pwn. Why aren't they used anymore if they have such superior longevity?

One main reason they are not very man portable even with 2+ men to service can carry them. I do agree that such workmanship and quality is missing from most of today MG.

Also having a supply of water in most places can be a issue.

WMS

Ah Vickers Machine Guns!

The only thing that prevent them from being used today is Weight!

I'm sure that, with some tinkering (And a rechamber to 7.62mm NATO!), they could still be used in certain conditions today. Base defence at the very least.

They worked in the Trenches in France, the Deserts of Africa, the Mountains of Italy (Mounted on Jeeps there), and all throughout Europe on the "Push To Berlin" with barely a hiccup!

If that isn't a Test From Hell, I don't know what is!

"Good enough" has certainly won the day over "masterpiece".

I don't see the big deal, personally, A first world army probably spends $50,000 a year to keep an infantryman on the books. Why quibble over a $600 rifle in favor of a $1200-$1500 rifle?

It's like buying a Ferrari and then putting a cheap stereo in it to save a few bucks.

Never worked Tech Support, have you ED_209a? Or Sales?

You see that all the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Especially with institutions!

Acquiring products for an institution, be it civilian or military, is as much about politics and maneuvering as it is the quality of the product.

Lobbying and marketing are every bit as important as the quality of the product itself.

And there are logistical considerations for transitioning from one product to another on an institutional scale, particularly one as large as the US Army (for example).

-Siege

Asked about my comment about, about dropping hot Bren Gun barrels into water...


From my understanding, and talking to a few former Bren Gunners, no. Just cooled 'em down real fast, good enough for a quick-change. Especially seeing as the Bren Gun fed from 30-Round Banana Magazine, and didn't chew through bullets quite as fast as a Belt-Fed weapon. (Pauses for reloading the Mags, after all.).

Weight, politics, and the fact that they were finally wearing out a half-century later (And refitting them is just as expensive as new, SOTA SAWs) are the only thing that are keeping the Bren Guns from being used today. They still serve in some of the more poorly equipped Militias in the Commonwealth.

People keep bringing this up, so let me be very clear. All machineguns, rifles, handguns, submachineguns firing a cased round have rifled barrels. Shotguns can be either rifled or smoothbore.

Watercooled weapons as stated were generally abandoned for several reasons. 1) Providing water can be problematic in a variety of environments,
2) Different environments offered a variety of unique issues related to providing water, or insuring the weapon remained operational, 3) The weight was prohibitive, and this became more and more of an issue as warfare has developed into a highly mobile event vis a static defensive event.

FPL = Final Protective Line, which is generally assigned only to tripod mounted machineguns is part of a system called Final Protective Fires. This is the oh shit we are being swarmed/attacked, and involves overlapping of medium and heavy machineguns FPL to produce barriers of lead. Combined with designated targets for mortars and artillery, along with light machineguns firing on their PDF's (Principal Direction of Fire) results in a spectacular lightshow of destruction. This is really the only time you will fire cyclic and that only in a well supplied situation.

As to reliability I can testify that the M240G is one of the most reliable weapons I have ever used. We had leftover ammo at the end of the fiscal year, and it was a case of use it or lose it. 7 M240G on line at the range with roughly 20,000 rounds to fire off for each. At the end of the day we had only one weapon malfunction, which was quickly corrected. It is a sweet piece of equipment.

As far as cooling barrels by dumping water on them, this is not usually a problem seeing as how they are steel not cast iron.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn, that must have been a fun day! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, Water-Cooled was great in the day, but the mobility needed in today's militaries, not to mention fighting usually happening in "The Sandbox", make it difficult.

Finally, thanks for confirming.

...

Did they ever make Cast Iron Machine Gun Barrels? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Ahh, the infamous mad minute.

One of the few entertaining parts of being range detail.

-Siege

I thought that was a technique with SMLE Bolt-Action Rifles...

According to a Vietnam War memoir I've read the "mad minutes" refers to a coordinated full minute of sustained automatic fire in order to prevent one's position from being overrun.

I doubt it, primarily due to ammunition-count considerations.

~J