I feel like the time is nigh to ask people questions about using machineguns, in case I ever get the chance to play a SR game using Raygun's rules that has realistic ROF and such, and I wanted to include more simulationistic details.

1.) I understand that with some machineguns barrel heat becomes an issue. For example, according to mighty internet research the M60 machinegun used in Vietnam needed to have its barrel changed after every 1000 consecutive rounds fired, or else there was the risk of the barrel overheating and warping. Therefore M60 operators needed to have big thick heavy gloves so they could take off an extremely hot barrel and screw on a new one in the middle of combat while under fire. Is this still an issue with contemporary machineguns? Would it be worthwhile to come up with a rule for, say, changing barrels under fire and using big gloves?

2.) Does anyone actually buy a big pile of ammo, a big pile of links, and manually link the cartridges? Or do people usually buy that stuff pre-linked?

3.) I'm assuming it's possible to "consolodate" 2 half-used external box magazines holding linked cartridges just by dumping the cartridges out from one box and linking them to the cartridges in the other box, right? How long would an operation like that take?

4.) In real life if a soldier is responsible for carrying around and using a machine gun using a common cartridge like 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO, or 7.62x54 R, how much ammunition would he carry?

1) All barrels need to be changed out if you fire too many rounds too quickly. Additionally the temperature of the environment you are in will affect how often or quickly this will occur. In the desert it is much easier to overheat the barrel than lets say in the mountains of Norway in the winter. Generally speaking most MG's have a cyclical rate that falls in the range of 600-1000rnds/minute. If you actually achieve your cyclical rate and go ape full auto, switching the barrel every 200-400rnds will most likely be necessary. If you do controlled bursts of 5-7rnds. you may be able to get away with doing it once every 600-800 rnds. . Switching a barrel is generally quick and easy, and contributes to extending the lifespan of your weapon system. If the shit hits the fan though and you need to keep firing don't get too worried until it starts turning slightly red (best way I can describe it), at which point you better get it switched or you will have a runaway gun.

2) No. They are prelinked in the box. Of ten your a-gunner will link the last of one box and the first in the next box as you are firing to provide continuous ammo supply.

3) It should take no more than five seconds if you screw up, generally a decent a-gunner wont take more than 3 seconds.

4) General training missions 600-800 rounds. Full combat load 1200 rounds. (in 5.56mm for 7.62mm about 2/3 that) Also remember everyone in your fireteam will be carrying extra ammo for the MG. In the case of the USMC when I was in the a-gunner would have about 360 rounds of 5.56mm for his M16 and would carry an additional 3-4 boxes (600-800 rounds) for the SAW. Same with the rifleman. Team leader did not because well 40mm grenades add up in weight. To make a long answer short, as much ammo as you can without compromising mobility.

It largely depends on what the barrel is made of as well. A steel barrel is exampled well above by Faelan. A CeraMet barrel will last for well over 1000 rounds of continuous full-auto until the receiver is so hot that the weapon starts cooking the rounds off as they feed into the chamber.

When something like that starts happening, is there any risk of the rounds going off out of battery?

When they get hot they glow red, start dark and get brighter. Plus real vis in IR I'm sure. I've been told that you can start to see the bullets going down the barrel when it gets towards white, but at that point you've probably ruined the rifling. You can get the barrel of a semi-auto rifle a nice cherry red color too. I saw a classmates S&W AR do that last week.

Barrel changes numbers I remember were based on time. Every x minutes at slow, every minute at cyclic, etc.

Potentially. This is one the main reasons why cased ammo is likely to stay the methods of choice, at least for machineguns.
The casing acts as a great heat dissipater/sink alternately so the chamber would need to be basically at the melting point before it might start cooking off the rounds as they are getting close to the receiver. Add to it that the rounds are feeding in at 650-900 rpm and you see they don't have much chance to cook off in the air.
Of course, a really hot receiver surrounding a metal case on all sides means that it heats up the round really dang quick. This is also why cook-offs don't tend to be at full auto rates. The rounds will generally sit for a second or two and then cook off unless you went completely nuts with the rock n' roll a very short time ago.

Little more detail on #1.

Changing a barrel on the two main US LMGs involves locking the bolt to the rear, pushing a spring-loaded locking lever and pulling the old barrel off using the handle. Reverse with the cold barrel, charge the weapon, and you are ready to go.

In SR4 terms, 1-2 complex actions for someone who does it for a living.

A smartlink-friendly LMG might even be able to eject it's own barrel on command, reducing it to 1 complex action.

In case anyone didn't know, A-gunner means "assistant gunner". He helps you ready ammo, and change barrels. Probably the AG's biggest job is linking belts together so the weapon never runs out of ammo.

I doubt Assistant Gunner is an official squad role anymore, since the move to 5.56mm LMGs. Probably some guy just gets picked to be the AG when you emplace the weapon.

In the USMC as of 92-98 you did have an official assistant saw gunner for each fireteam. His principal duty outside of being a pack mule, was knowing how to use the saw well enough to replace the primary when he goes down. Generally third most senior in a fireteam, with your rifleman being a bootcamp commando or rather a BOOT.

just one question:

WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH THAT?
it's worse enough how english treats other languages, but this is treating english the same way and makes it even worse again!
and people complain about lolcats and l33t-speak god damn it x.x . .

I believe he was trying to say "how can one treat small arms in Shadowrun in a realistic manner?"

there was another thread with a subtitle like that not too long ago and i thought that was bad enough . . but if that is on purpose i offer to pay someone 500$ to find him and kick him in the nuts <.< . .
payment colectable after video proof

If it was me, I'd make it an Extended Heavy Weapons + Logic Test (5, Complex Action), similar to how it works for changing the tank on a flamethrower.

I think you meant worser. =i)

In the Army (82nd Airborne Infantry) each platoon had a weapons squad 2 MGs 2 AGs 2 Dragon Gunners 2 DGAGs One squad leader.
Each line squad had 2 SAW gunners 2 M203 grenadiers and 2 riflemen (usually FNGs) and 1 Squad Leader.

The MGs each would carry 200 rds 762 Ball ammo and 45 magazines for the M9 pistol
The AGs would carry the Tripod/Pindle/Spare barrel 7 magazines 5.56 for the M16 and 400-600 rds 7.62 if we were not doing an anti armor OP/Training the Dragon Gunner AGs would also carry some 7.62 rds.

Almost makes me want to join the Airborne just so I can say I was a "Dragon Gunner" that has to be the coolest military title/job I've heard so far.

Chris

11B1PC2 is the complete MOS designator for the Dragon Gunner.
It sounds cool, it is cool to fire one, but damn is it a bitch to hump and jump. Damn thing catches wind like nothing else, and the packing is huge!

But still kinda fun. I miss it.

I've heard that some "Tailgunners" in vehicles are now called "Trunk Monkeys".

Using the M60 as a research point for barrel changing might not have been the best idea as originally it was an arduous process to do so. The reason why the troops were using heavy asbestos gloves was because the handle was not connected to the barrel. The only way to change the barrel was by touching it directly. Additionally the bipod was affixed to the barrel requiring the gunner to hold up the weapon during the procedure. Finally, the barrel was directly connected to the gas cylinder, making it unnecessarily expensive and more importantly heavy. These design flaws were addressed in future iterations.

Source: Jane's Guns Recognition Guide, Ian Hogg & Terry Gander, copyright 2005

Dragon Gunners and Trunk Monkeys? Can you tell the video game/PnP generation is in the military now?

Chris

You are blind to Wounded Ronin's genius. He are awesome.

Well, some AC-130 "Spooky" gunners were checking out one of the mission levels in "Call of Duty IV", and commented on how realistic it was, "Just like being back there."

So, I'll have to say, yes. I mean, hell, Video Games/PnP have been around for, what, over 30-years now? A Teenager that played those growing up, and joined the military is going to have a touch of rank now. Not one of the Brass, no, but enough to give nicknames and let them stick.

C'mon now - Soldiers nickname everything.

Hell, I'll bet "pull yon olde Betsy" was Revolutionary war slang for a pornographic act between a Redcoat and a slow chicken.

-Siege

Well, that's a completely different thread, my friend...

It's just something Wounded Ronin picked up from another forum he frequents. (I believe the original was "HOW DO MARTIAL ARTS????") I never was able to trace the meme back further than that, but it's certainly from the same memetic genus as:

• "HOW DO I SHOT WEB?" which has its origin with clueless noobs playing the Half-Life mod Natural Selection.

and

• "HOW I MINE FOR FISH?" which is a commentary of the amount of intelligent discourse to be found on the chat channels of the typical MMO as portrayed in this strip from webcomic VGCats.

It may even be a hybrid of the two.

I took it as just another internet meme that seems silly to me.

Like all but the first 20 LOLcats, etc.

Just some numbers:
For the German MG3 (basically an MG42 in 7.62mm NATO) the rule is barrel change every 100 rounds, bolt change every 150 rounds - at least, that's what you train for...
Barrel change is very easy though a quick-change mechanism, bolt change requires partial disassembly.

I don't know about the 5.56mm MG4 used today but the barrel change mechanism seems to be inspired by the FN Minimi (M249 SAW).

I've gotta say, changing a barrel every 100 rounds sounds tremendously wimpy. I mean, we're talking about guns which shoot up to 600 rounds a minute, right? So you have to change the barrel every 6 seconds? You fire for a few seconds, spend half a minute swapping barrels and chambers, fire for a few seconds...

Every hundred rounds seems pretty wimpy to me, too. Up in Canuckland we change the barrel on the C9 (Same damn LMG everyone, including the yankees, uses) every two belts as a rule of thumb.

As for changing the bolt... that's alot of time that the machinegun is not putting effective fire down range.

As for barrel heat, pretty much every machine gunner in the history of warfare has stories of accidentally touching a hot barrel. They get damn hot, and as quickly as half a belt. I've only seen cherry hot on MMGs and bigger, though. I saw a 7.62 dull red and I saw a 50 call white hot once. It's true that you can see the bullet going down the barrel. As for ruining the rifling, the average machine gun isn't rifled, being an area weapon. Hence machine gun, rather than machine rifle.

Oh, and one last point. That 50 cal barrel that was white hot actually had the chroming from the inside of the barrel coming out the front in liquid form. It's was pretty cool.

huh, i didn't know that. learn something new every day.



"sorry, sometimes it gets a little too excited..."



remember: you're not supposed to rock'n'roll and go full auto all the time, even with machine guns. controlled, killing bursts. save the wild rambo inspired sprays for suppresing fire.

From my understanding, Machine Guns are designed for Suppressive Fire rather than truely accurate fire.

That doesn't mean that MGs can't be used accurately. Some .50 Cal M2HBs were used as Sniper Rifles before the Anti-Material Rifles came out, and the British Bren Gun was almost too accurate for it's purpose.

The M249 SAW can be fired continuously, burning through an entire box of ammo.

It's not recommended because of the extreme wear and tear on the mechanisms and the barrel. The idea is to put a high volume of fire downrange over a period of time, not: a whole lot of fire, repair weapon and change barrels, hope you didn't get killed in the downtime, reload, a whole lot of fire...repeat as necessary.

You fire in short, controlled bursts to maximize accuracy - the suppressive element comes from "no, I'm not gonna stick my head out and run for it - there's a machine gun out there!" which can be achieved with three short, accurate bursts which preserve the operation of the weapon versus one long burst with reduced accuracy and increased strain on the equipment.

That said, if 30 odd hostiles appear at 10 meters or less, weapon longevity is the least of your worries...

-Siege

Are you sure about that? Care to cite your sources?

I've never seen a smooth bore machine gun, personally. I don't think it's really possible, unless you are running a rifled sabot, or a fin-stabilized projectile. Otherwise there would be no way to stabilize the bullet in flight.

I'm sure that there's some obscure weapon out there I'm not aware of, but all of the machine guns I've seen and shot have had rifled barrels.

Unless it's some sort of Napoleonic weirdo MG, it is rifled without a doubt.

Horizon has decided that the meme must be removed. They're sending a team to "process" Wounded Ronin as we speak.

Clearly not many people have ever used fully automatic weapons in the LMG, MMG, or HMG role. You almost NEVER use it full auto. An idiot with unlimited ammo might, but crew served weapons don't have that happy condition unless they are in the rear with the gear sitting on a range. For suppressive fire you will generally set up machineguns in an area with a good field of fire on the target area, and appropriately spaced. This fire will be placed on target and walked in front of any individuals assaulting said target. The spaced out fires and the fact that no gun is firing over another results in what is commonly referred to as talking guns. This means everyone is firing 5-7 round bursts in sequence or grouped sequence depending on how many guns you have available. Once the objective is taken the machinegun will quickly be employed in a defensive role. In the defense the machinegun is assigned a principal direction of fire based on avenues of approach. The machineguns are assigned overlapping principal directions of fire (essentially a line that you fire down).
The combined use of machineguns provides a proverbial wall of lead, which slows or eliminates an enemies advance, allowing the rifles of the unit to be employed to eliminate the enemy. Vehicular mounted machineguns are better supplied in the ammunition category, and are used similarly to their ground pounding mates, except for the fact that we have greater mobility, and therefore this can be employed to produce quicker offensives, however in the defense it is more vulnerable to enemy attack. If you ever see anyone using a machinegun in full auto, going cyclic or rather ape shit moving it rapidly left to right, it means the shit has really hit the fan, the enemy is about to overrun your position, and it wont matter in a couple of seconds whether your barrel melts or you run out of ammunition.

A couple of notes: 1) Machineguns are in fact rifled. Without rifling accurate fire at long ranges would be impossible, and if you think the machinegun is an area weapon you might know enough to hurt yourself. What you might be thinking about is called the beaten zone, and has nothing to do with whether a weapon is rifled or not, instead having to do with the minute changes a mounted machinegun will experience round to round between recoil, windage, and powder charge. Advanced techniques allow this to be used for indirect fire in combination with the natural drop of the bullet at range.
2) Machineguns should never be used for room clearing if you have a choice due to several factors. Machineguns are open bolt weapons meaning lower reliability, they are heavy, they are unwieldy. All of these will reduce your speed in an environment where speed is essential

Of course all of this depends on how much realism you want in your game, because going Rambo on some poor bastard is just fun.

The main problem with using a machinegun via the aforementioned "Ayatollah of Rock n' Rolla!" method is that with a 100 round belt you typically get 5-6 in the area you want to shoot at and the next 94-95 rounds as a direct threat to any low-altitude aircraft that happen to be lined up with the muzzle of your weapon. You use short, controlled bursts except in extremely close ranges because you waste less ammo, extend barrel life, and look like you know what you're doing in general.

The longest burst I ever fired was 30 rounds - from a 7.62mm MG3 mounted co-axially to the 105mm main gun in the turret of a Leopard 1A5 MBT.

Since firing from an open vs closed bolt has been mentioned in this thread, here's a handy linky that covers the difference.

Using an open bolt design keeps the cartridge out of the hot chamber, greatly reducing your chance of rounds cooking off when your weapon gets too hot. Of course, you tend to pick up more dirt with an open bolt design, and are less accurate. But on most MGs that doesn't matter too much.

Handguns are never rifled either. Hence hand gun, rather than hand rifle. Same with submachine guns, hence not submachine rifle. Field guns, too—hence not field rifles.

(It's already been addressed by others, but for those not picking up the sarcasm, every statement in the rest of this post is false, and the logic supporting each one utter nonsense)

~J

So if you're only going to fire off a machine gun in short bursts, what's the advantage of having a gun that fires 1,000 rounds per minute vesus 600? I mean, it's just the difference between 1 second and 2, isn't it? Wouldn't the slower gun allow for more control?

And I have to say, changing th ebarrel every 100 rounds still sounds awfully conservative. My gun didn't come with anything saying change the barrel every 1,000 rounds, much less every 100, and I'd never heard of that being the case for assault rifles (which also fire controlled bursts). Is there a reason machine guns are treated so delicately?

1) The assorted cyclic rates in the case of a machinegun really do not affect the recoil in any noticeable way, due to either utilizing a bipod in the prone, a tripod, or pintle mount on a vehicle. Effectively in combat 600 might as well be a 1000, if you were firing full auto you are talking about a difference of 10 per second or just over 16 per second. Either way you are toast. In fact the higher cyclic would be harder to time bursts for and you would find yourself running on empty very quickly.

2) The guidelines are there because most militaries realize that in combat you wont think about it, melt the bitch and be screwed, unless it is beat into your head to change the thing frequently. 100 might seem low and you can get away with more it all comes down to the ambient temperature.

3) Many modern assault rifles do not have a full auto option precisely because people have melted barrels in combat.

4) Delicately? Ensuring your weapon continues to function for the full duration of a mission is just smart. Ensuring it remains accurate is smart. Going berserk on it and running 1000 rounds through it in a minute, well enjoy trying to get the new barrel on.

That's one reason. Ammo conservation is another.

And accuracy - unless you're talking about engagements at really close quarters, you won't put many rounds on target.

As for barrels on assault rifles - it doesn't take much to get the barrel of an M16 hot enough to be painful to hold, even through the hand guards, even when firing on semi.

-Siege

Another advantage of Wood Furniture over Polymers. But that's a different discussion.

Oh, BTW, Cooling Shrouds are illegal in some US States, apparently. A SAFETY device is illegal.

That tells you something about the intelligence of the Gun Control lobby.

Pfffft.

It's illegal because anything that can make you shoot better for longer periods is obviously bad. Because, you know, the next shooting spree might go for hours and if the guy (or gal) forgets their gloves, heavens-to-Betsy, who knows what all might happen?

As for the wood thing - we'd lose the weight savings so we couldn't strap on all our high-speed flashlights and laser sights and infra-red dohickies and the automated coffee-maker!

That and polymer is easier to mass-produce, or so I'm told.

-Siege

Well, weight-saving measures are to allow to carry more ammo. Always a good thing with even a semi-automatic weapon, and essential in a burst/fully-automatic one!

But there's saving weight, and there's having something that can't even be used as a decent club when things get TOO close! That's been the secondary useage of a Rifle since the days when they were Muskets!

Let me know how well that works with an M4.

-Siege

The higher rates of fire for MGs are useful when you have a very short engagement time to shoot at the target, and are also helpful when you really need to go cyclic.

If you only have the target in your sights for a quarter of a second, it would be really handy to be able to fire many bullets at him.



So if you happen to be stuck with an old Browning .30 cal (~450 RPM), you aren't getting much actual use out of your rate of fire (you can really only shoot a round or two at your target. If you are using an MG42 (1000-1300 RPM), you can get a full 3-5 round burst shot off in that engagement time.

Part of the reason for frequent barrel changes in MGs is for longer barrel life. A normal barrel is good for around 15,000 rounds or so with a normal firing cycle; but when the barrel gets hot it's long term life is heavily cut down. Changing barrels every hundred rounds or so means that you keep the long term barrel life of your MGs up. Even with the relative coddling of changing the barrel every couple hundred rounds, your barrel life is only around 2/3rds the life of the same barrel in rifle like circumstances. In addition, firing cyclic without changing the barrel for any length of time will really screw it up.

'Standard' MG rate of fire is 60-90 RPM. So in a five minute fight, you'd have changed the barrel two or three times and have used up around 400 rounds of ammunition. In desperate combat, like breaking out of an ambush or final protective fire your rate of fire goes up to 180+ RPM and barrel changes be damned.

Hey Crusher Bob thanks for summing up all the other points I did not have the time to. Good to go.

Hey, Raygun said that a bipod doesn't help manage recoil, unless it's weighted down by sandbags. Is that true?