Not entirely. A bipod needs to be braced against something somewhat solid, and pressed down. Weighing it down with sandbags is certainly one way of providing these necessary conditions.

So when you change the barrel, you aren't just throwing out the old barrel and getting a new barrel just out of the package? Instead, you have a number of old barrels you rotate between, to give each one a chance to cool before reusing it?

Generally you have one spare barrel on hand, generally carried in its own bag. Of course many gunners design other methods of carrying it. Technically the asst. gunner is supposed to carry it, however then you risk losing a vital piece of equipment if he bites it. Don't mistake replacing with disposing. You switch them out allowing the other to cool. You generally only do this in the defense or if you are providing a base of fire. In the assault you generally do not mess with this.

IIRC, the Canadian Army Manual (1944 Edition) suggested dropping the hot barrel of a Bren Gun in a trench of "As clean as possible water" for rapid reuse.

No, you also use cyclic on FPLs, whether the target is close or not. You are forcing the people going to close assault to run through your grazing fire (and hence the vast majority get shot). You shoot until told to stop, you run out of ammo, the barrel melts, or you are killed. You also have the MG on a sandbagged tripod using a T&E. However, this would be extremely rarely used in game play.

The rules on multiple targets for machineguns in SR tend to suck, but in reality they seem to be rarely used.

I know AK owners who have set their wood handguards on fire. . . . And the crappy Russian laminated lumber doesn't handle heat really well.

Still bet it took more heat to do that than what the Polymer Handguards on the M-16 Family are able to deal with.

But the fact of the matter is that if you abuse something, it will stop working. It's how much abuse it can take before failing that's the issue.

Raygun has a reputation for doing his homework, so I won't completely dismiss the statement out-of-hand, but the few LMGs I have fired were all easily manageable on a bipod.

I have heard from ex-infantry guys that the M2 .50 HMG almost requires sandbags when on a tripod.

The bipod doesn't directly mitigate recoil like, say, a muzzle brake does. What it does mean that you have to wrestle with the weapon a lot less, so the handling is much easier. You could get some of the same advantage by resting your LMG on any stable surface (a wall, or a large rock, for example). The bipod just makes it much simpler to do. And if you do have time to weigh the bipod down, it will directly help with recoil, yes.

Also note that old water cooled guns like the vickers can basically fire continuously as long as the radiator is topped up. For example, when Browning demonstrated his machine gun to the US army in 1917, he fired two burst out of it, each burst being twenty thousand rounds long.

Yes some of the old water cooled MG's of WWI fired many millions of rounds.

Vickers MG Wiki





WMS

IIRC I remember reading somewhere of a Vickers machine gun during the Great War that was fired pretty much continuously for 12 hours or so and managed to get through 120,000 rounds. They weren't called the the Queen of the Battlefield for nothing. Complete bastard to manhandle about thanks to the weight so you were never going to use them charging and storming places but sited in a defensive position or giving suppressing fire and they were the business.

Edit: And Wearz posts whilst I'm writing.

Tru dat. An acquaintance of mine in the RAF Regiment said they used to cut grass stalks at engagement ranges with their SA80-family SAWs. So not *all* machine guns are unrifled. Some of the applications of the machine gun do require decent accuracy. When you're grazing fire over the heads of your advancing infantry, you don't want unstable, loose rounds falling short in your own people, and when you're spreading your beaten zone over the blind side of a reverse slope to suppress 'em, you need a good degree of predictability. Yes, machine guns on tripods can do indirect fire...

That wouldn't crack the barrel if it were red hot?


Also, those water cooled MGs mentioned later in this thread sound like t3h pwn. Why aren't they used anymore if they have such superior longevity?

One main reason they are not very man portable even with 2+ men to service can carry them. I do agree that such workmanship and quality is missing from most of today MG.

Also having a supply of water in most places can be a issue.

WMS

Ah Vickers Machine Guns!

The only thing that prevent them from being used today is Weight!

I'm sure that, with some tinkering (And a rechamber to 7.62mm NATO!), they could still be used in certain conditions today. Base defence at the very least.

They worked in the Trenches in France, the Deserts of Africa, the Mountains of Italy (Mounted on Jeeps there), and all throughout Europe on the "Push To Berlin" with barely a hiccup!

If that isn't a Test From Hell, I don't know what is!

"Good enough" has certainly won the day over "masterpiece".

I don't see the big deal, personally, A first world army probably spends $50,000 a year to keep an infantryman on the books. Why quibble over a $600 rifle in favor of a $1200-$1500 rifle?

It's like buying a Ferrari and then putting a cheap stereo in it to save a few bucks.

Never worked Tech Support, have you ED_209a? Or Sales?

You see that all the time.

Especially with institutions!

Acquiring products for an institution, be it civilian or military, is as much about politics and maneuvering as it is the quality of the product.

Lobbying and marketing are every bit as important as the quality of the product itself.

And there are logistical considerations for transitioning from one product to another on an institutional scale, particularly one as large as the US Army (for example).

-Siege

Asked about my comment about, about dropping hot Bren Gun barrels into water...


From my understanding, and talking to a few former Bren Gunners, no. Just cooled 'em down real fast, good enough for a quick-change. Especially seeing as the Bren Gun fed from 30-Round Banana Magazine, and didn't chew through bullets quite as fast as a Belt-Fed weapon. (Pauses for reloading the Mags, after all.).

Weight, politics, and the fact that they were finally wearing out a half-century later (And refitting them is just as expensive as new, SOTA SAWs) are the only thing that are keeping the Bren Guns from being used today. They still serve in some of the more poorly equipped Militias in the Commonwealth.

People keep bringing this up, so let me be very clear. All machineguns, rifles, handguns, submachineguns firing a cased round have rifled barrels. Shotguns can be either rifled or smoothbore.

Watercooled weapons as stated were generally abandoned for several reasons. 1) Providing water can be problematic in a variety of environments,
2) Different environments offered a variety of unique issues related to providing water, or insuring the weapon remained operational, 3) The weight was prohibitive, and this became more and more of an issue as warfare has developed into a highly mobile event vis a static defensive event.

FPL = Final Protective Line, which is generally assigned only to tripod mounted machineguns is part of a system called Final Protective Fires. This is the oh shit we are being swarmed/attacked, and involves overlapping of medium and heavy machineguns FPL to produce barriers of lead. Combined with designated targets for mortars and artillery, along with light machineguns firing on their PDF's (Principal Direction of Fire) results in a spectacular lightshow of destruction. This is really the only time you will fire cyclic and that only in a well supplied situation.

As to reliability I can testify that the M240G is one of the most reliable weapons I have ever used. We had leftover ammo at the end of the fiscal year, and it was a case of use it or lose it. 7 M240G on line at the range with roughly 20,000 rounds to fire off for each. At the end of the day we had only one weapon malfunction, which was quickly corrected. It is a sweet piece of equipment.

As far as cooling barrels by dumping water on them, this is not usually a problem seeing as how they are steel not cast iron.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn, that must have been a fun day!

Yeah, Water-Cooled was great in the day, but the mobility needed in today's militaries, not to mention fighting usually happening in "The Sandbox", make it difficult.

Finally, thanks for confirming.

...

Did they ever make Cast Iron Machine Gun Barrels?

Ahh, the infamous mad minute.

One of the few entertaining parts of being range detail.

-Siege

I thought that was a technique with SMLE Bolt-Action Rifles...

According to a Vietnam War memoir I've read the "mad minutes" refers to a coordinated full minute of sustained automatic fire in order to prevent one's position from being overrun.

I doubt it, primarily due to ammunition-count considerations.

~J

If you're preventing a position overrun, ammo is the least of your worries, neh?

Not in the least.

I'm not saying they wouldn't fire for a full minute because they were worried about the ammo, but because they were most likely not carrying that much ammo, at least not in magazines—800 rounds/minute for the M16, subtracting a quarter of that for reloading time to give 600 rounds, which with the standard 20-round magazines means 30 magazines per person.

I don't know how many magazines soldiers go into the field with, but I've got a nagging suspicion the number isn't 30. 18 is the largest number I can find gear claiming to hold off-hand. Maybe a mad 30 seconds?

~J

Ah! The term "Mad Minute" predates that. It was a British Empire (Later Commonwealth) shooting technique with the SMLE during WWI and WWII.

Hold onto the Bolt with thumb and index finger, stroke the trigger with the middle finger, and work the bolt, from my understanding.

It meant ten rounds of aimed fire in less than as many seconds.

A few German troops in WWI thought they were under MG Fire when interviewed after they surrendured. Now, that was an elite unit specially trained in the technique, but that's darn good for a Bolt Action Rifle!

IIRC from Chickenhawk or another Vietnam memoire, 600 rounds was a minimum loadout for dropping in a hot LZ for the Airborne. I would presume that at a supplied base, a fire position would have at least that many rounds available, less usage since resupply. Just because a given peice of LBE can't hold more doesn't mean that pockets or even the front of battledress won't be stuffed with as many rounds as possible. It is a maxim that you can never have too much ammunition.

It's a maxim that's widely considered wrong, based on the fact that soldiers don't carry more of it (regardless of how much they actually carry)

But fair enough. I apparently underestimated ammo loads. Was all of that in magazines, or was some boxed or loose for field magazine refills?

~J

The old US Army belt pouches had pockets for 6 magazines. The new tactical vests have pockets for 6 magazines. You can attach the old pouches to the new vests. That is capacity for 12 mags that is still relatively convenient.

Personally, I would carry as much ammo as practical, not possible.

If I was staging out of an armored vehicle, I would carry a lot more ammo than if I were marching somewhere. Ditto if I had to carry my own food and water.

Lots of ammo is great, but not at the cost of food & water, or getting there exhausted. Infantry have to carry so much stuff as it is...

And yet practical is possible. When we are using our LPCs we carry as much as we can carry. For me to be an effective soldier demands that I keep my feet clean, my fuses protected, and my rifle secure so that I may carry out my mission whatever that may be. I am not an effective soldier if I cannot carry out those conditions. If I run out of ammunition I am no longer an effective soldier.

As to carrying too much, you must be in poor shape. Poor shape means not carrying out your mission. If you cannot carry out your mission you are not an effective soldier.

-Chrysalis

Standard doctrine is 210 rounds for an assault rifle/carbine - in theory, 7 magazines filled with 30 rounds each.

In practice, the actual ammo load will vary based on your specific mission parameters. And you never load a magazine with the maximum 30 rounds because it overloads the spring and causes feed jams in your weapon.

How much gear you actually carry can be distributed among your ruck sack, your person and a "three day assault pack" - and even then, your personal load will depend on where you're going, likelihood for resupply and access to friendly forces. A protracted foot patrol might carry more gear than, say, a Quick Reaction Force (QRF) that responds to specific incidents and returns to base.

Another factor to consider - combat troops will have different load outs than their support counterparts because their respective initial supply and unit stores are going to be different.

-Siege

IIRC it's a technique used at some point in the day/night when there was a high probability of people skulking around your perimeter that you can't see. Typically dusk or dawn iirc. You were simply hosing down the areas of concealment and seeing if anyone shot back. I've also seen references to it being used against snipers.

From the VN Vets I served with a "mad minute" was when everything that could fire was fired at max ROF, in a lot cases exact targeting was not used. Some Base Camps conducted such when anything "spooked" the troops in the Base Camp.

WMS

Also done first thing in the morning before breakfast at some firebases for morale and "so I can grab a bite to eat in peace before the day starts."

In context these days, a chance to burn off ammo that is too troublesome to turn back in at the end of a range or a fiscal cycle. As suggested, you hunker down with as many mags as they have to give out and just go nuts at a target or a berm.

-Siege

Always found it hilarious that it's easier to waste than turn back in. In a lot of things.

Lots of people back home went prospecting using the cases of dynamite that only had a few sticks missing because it was easier to write off the case than return it partially used. (I grew up in a mining town.).

I know that while the Canadian tac vest can hold 5 mags, most of the guys going out have their own tac vests, some of which can hold up to 15 mags. The average, I find is 9 mags. This is from a battalion mounted in LAV 3s, mind you. We usually have more ammo in the carrier, to boot. The light battalion prides itself on being tougher (or dumber, depending who you ask) so they often carry more.

This report disagrees with your putting the blame on the carrier.

~J

These have probably all been addressed, but I just wanted to put in my two cents (as a former Marine, I held the billet of automatic rifleman for two years and carried a SAW, which is a Light Machine Gun)

Barrel Overheats:
Yes, barrels overheat; different weapons will overheat at different rates. The major cause of barrel heating is the friction of the bullet as it spins through the barrel - so a weapon with a higher rate of fire will overheat more quickly than a weapon with a lower rate of fire. For this reason, a SAW will have to have its barrel changed more often than a MK19 (which shoots 40mm grenades at a snail pace).

The big question to ask is: In the 2070s, have any weapon manufacturers come up with new ways of dealing with barrel overheating? New alloys or forging techniques to either reduce friction or more effectively distribute heat?

Machine Gunners tend to have an A-Barrel (extra barrel) which snaps on relatively easily. There is a second man called an A-Gunner who is responsible for, among other things, ensuring that the barrel change process goes quickly and smoothly (and he may even hump the extra barrel).


Linking:
This would depend on where you got your ammo from. Any good fixer who can get his hands on mil-spec hardware should be able to get his hands on linked ammo. If you have to manually link 1000 rounds, I feel sorry for your character.


Consolidating:
I assume you mean taking two linked belts and making one linked belt? If they were in two different boxes, you have to figure you have to dump, find the end, find the other end, tear an extra link off if necessary, then clip them together. Between 20 seconds and a minute. Situation dictating.


Capacity:
When I would go on missions in Iraq, I carried between 600 and 1000 rounds of ammunition. This was very heavy and uncomfortable, and not at all quiet enough. A 200 round drum of 5.56 link weighs about 6lbs and some change - if memory serves (it's been two years, please excuse). Obviously, if I could get away with less, I would carry less, but the mission dictated the load out for the most part.

No, I'd feel sorry for the Gutterpunk that the character would grab, beat up, and make do it while watching him very, very carefully with an Ares Predator screwed into his left ear.

I have never meet anyone who has been in a real gunfight who talked about how they wished they had less ammo with them. I have talked to people who wished they had more and heard ugly stories of the the people who never got a chance to talk about whether they wished they had more ammo.

Ammo is cheap, lives are expensive.

The difference being humping it and shooting it. You are always grateful for what you have when the time comes for shooting... but walking for hours in full kit can be very fatiguing. In a prolonged gunfight you are more likely to run out of water than bullets, as long as you aren't an idiot. Is there a rule set for that? Hydration?

Of course. What was I thinking?

just had a friend who moved to California report back about a weekend of paintball that he played in a sun-parched river valley (100+ heat). granted, he's not in military-grade physical condition, but he was effing exhausted after a few hours of play, and he's carrying much less weight that a mission loaded soldier.

the fact that they removed weight in order to 'streamline' gameplay is kind of a shame, because that was essentialy the one major drawback to using a machinegun in the SR ruleset.

That and the -6 adjustment to hearing tests for full autofire, and the — concealability, and the fact that you punt over to a different skill linked to a less vital attribute.

~J

Silly question, but isn't there some sort of a... machine maybe that can link bullets automatically? When I see a chain of 1,000 linked cartridges, does that mean some dumb schlob seriously sat there and, by hand, linked each one?

There are linkers, but I can't find one ig google today. But people who shoot mgs for a living get issued linked ammo. It's not that hard to manually link ammo, it's just boring. There are also some interesting issues I've read about between minigun and regular ammo links.

Well, if the ammo has "Made In China" stamped on it.