My current PC is an elven shaman with soft-maxed CHA, so he can have 7 bound spirits. Showing up with one unbound and seven bound spirits can be fairly impressive. If it's so impressive that people surrender or cooperate (or at least decide not to attack) rather than risk getting swarmed by eight spirits, then hey, he gets good results without actually expending services. Currently his posse is Force 3 spirits (just enough to have an optional power), so that's 7x3x500 in binding materials, or 10,500 nuyen. For the same money, he could buy a pair of Doberman drones equipped with loaded Ares Alpha assault rifles... and the drones have unlimited services... but his posse can follow him astrally, can't be hacked by riggers, and has a variety of useful noncombat abilities such as Guard and Psychokinesis.

A bound spirit uses one service to sustain a spell for the mage for F (force) turns, so if he wanted to fight with full buffs and no sustaining penalty, he could cast Increase Reflexes and have a bound Spirit of Earth sustain it, cast Combat Sense and have a Spirit of Water sustain it, and cast Invisibility and have a Spirit of Air sustain it. Alternatively, he could bind a Spirit of Man with Innate Spell: Increase Reflexes, another with Innate Spell: Combat Sense, and a third with Innate Spell: Invisibility... then snap his fingers as the signal for each spirit to cast its spell on him, have all three spells go up in one IP, and have the spirits sustain the buff spells until the next dawn/dusk. This is why he has specialization in Binding: Spirits of Man.

A bound spirit with Innate Spell: Heal and the instruction "heal me if I get injured" is a nice backup option; so is a bound spirit ready to Conceal and Movement a getaway/escape. For those who can bind Task spirits, getting one with appropriate skills to release a prisoner would be real handy if you got captured, because you could have it show up and remove your handcuffs, open the cell door, etc. (Then again, if the cell is warded, too bad for that plan.)

Dude!

You realize the GM is at liberty to hit you with a 12 Dice Penalty to all action when you show up with that lot?

Presumably the GM has already told him whether he is using that optional rule.
I would hope that he asked the GM about that.
But, if I asked, and the GM said we were not using that rule, I would be very unhappy if the GM suddenly decided I was too strong and started using that rule. Things like that affect the choice of character I take to start with.

Joel

1. That optional rule is fucking retarded.
2. It's an optional rule, not a floating penalty. Either your game uses it, or your gamemaster isn't a twat and you don't.

-Frank

I see that rule as the RAW suggesting a penalty for Mages that are abusive to there spirits. Mostly because well


The character in question has been RPing an intensely respective shaman. So I don't see a need

Trouble is that it isn't an optional rule. It's core with optional application by GM fiat.

As to the rest? You won't hear me arguing with you about it.

Actually if a character/player was doing that trick with all those spirits bound and doing pretty much constantly would find that the summoning/binding of said spirits would get harder and harder.

Yes it is a game but not all the role playing is on the player/character side, the npc's/spirits get role played also.

WMS

Eh. I don't have any problems with a very charismatic shaman type forming a series of lasting bargains (bindings) with a large number of spirits willing to aid him as they can. Now if he was going out of his way to send them in to situations they're almost assuredly going to get killed in or generally being a dick to them, then I'd start pulling out resting penalties and edge on binding rolls. A dedicated summoner who relies on his spirit allies is a perfectly valid concept to me.

From a balance perspective I don't think it's that much of an issue. Logic links to a lot more magician skills than charisma, so throwing charisma magi a bone fine. Social skills are about even with technical skills, and both marry well with magic.

From what I seen and read most do not even go that far, but use them as high cost cannon fodder lackeys/flunkies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

WMS

It's a neat tactic. If I was behind the Big Black Screen, I might consider it grounds to put that big "Spirit Abuser" sticker on your aura, though.

Ah. Well, there's a sub-question: is using bound spirits as disposable grunts worth it?
By WMS account, some players run characters who do so.
If the GM is OK with that, well, it's probably worthwhile, since an F5 spirit can tear up low-rating mundanes such as gangers or guards with ease.
If the GM applies the rules in which spirits resent being used that way, it could quickly become a bad strategy.

Even so, though, if I understand correctly, if one has seven unhappy bound spirits who are "off duty", there's no penalty; keeping them on leash causes -2 for each only while they're at hand. If a mage gets into a warded bunker, calls up his posse of spirits and sics them on the target, then he takes -12 while sitting in a bunker and waiting. When the dust settles, he puts the surviving spirits on standby, then goes to the now-devastated target and loots the bodies.

My PC uses bound spirits more often for spellcasting, spell sustaining, Movement, Concealment, Guard, and other tasks which don't even require them to materialize. He once sent a spirit into combat, and the spirit got killed by a single attack from a monowhip-wielding adept. (It musta been a weapon focus to do 12 boxes in one attack.) If the spirit had been wounded, the PC would have immediately ordered it to disengage. The PC resolved to be more careful about sending spirits into combat. I suppose that people who train horses or dogs have similar range of treating them as valuable allies vs. as disposable minions.

Another PC in the group rebinds spirits. This yields fewer services per use of binding materials than binding a spirit which has services from the Summoning roll, but the GM roleplays rebound spirits as being loyal and possibly more familiar with the PC and the mundane world, than "fresh off the boat" spirits from a new Summoning.

One good use for bound spirits is a variation of the classic pre-unarmed meet weapon smuggling tactic, if you happen to have a guardian spirit. You know a well-guarded VIP target will be at a certain place for a meeting. Long before the meeting you sneak a gun into the bathroom. Then you send in a Guardian, who enters the bathroom astrally, grabs the gun, and shoot the mages first because they're expecting spirit opposition to be spending complex actions on spells, melee combat, and ranged elemental attacks instead of just blasting them with a heavy pistol. This also works well with sniping.

And lets not overlook the usefulness of an Ally with flight and longarms skill flying around with a large caliber rifle (or an ally with the heavy weapons skill flying around with a missile launcher or assault cannon).
"That's my Ally Spirit. You're all going to die." Ha!, we have five initiates performing counterspelling and our armor is resistant to all elements! Your magical minion can't possibly harm us." *The sound of a minigun spinning up* "Oh, I think he can."

I would like to chime in on messing with spirits when you are trying to bind them. Although orgasm gives pleasure to the person in question, there might be too much of a good thing is a bad thing going on and the spirit might spend edge to try and get out of the situation. I would probably roll it's "logic" threshold 2 to determine if it would try and struggle as hard as it possibly could to escape the binding.

One would think if you are trying to penalize a spirit when binding you know.... a spirit might be wise to what you are trying to do and think that you might not treat it well. Maybe rebinding a spirit that you have used for a long time might not use edge against you, but a new one certainly might.

"Abusing" spirits is a case by case call, and I think only constantly sending spirits to be put in a box o' hurt constantly would give you a bad name.

If you can use spirits as disposeable grunts depends on the campaigns power level. Security expecting street samurai will be able to deal with force 5 spirits. It is IMO better to cover combat with summoning, especially if you take spirits that like combat. You get to discuss the disposeable part with a guardian 7 spirit. Warning: I think its like calling a dragon "ordinary".

The unbalancing point about spirits is not their number, but their potential individual power. I´d be more worried by the plan to summon a single force 9 than binding a group of force 5. The logical solution is to not punish the usage of multiple spirits. Edge used against the binding attempt is the punishment of choice for mistreatment of spirits.

A force 9 spirit has the potential to resist pretty hard, probably just 6 boxes but could be 18, so be ready to spend Edge on the Drain roll!
Also, it's more logical, more intuitive, and more strong-willed than the summoner, so I'd give it really broadly phrased directions, and I'd say "please", and hope that it chose to interpret the directions helpfully. Micromanaging a LOG 9 INT 9 WIL 9 entity strikes me as not such a good idea. I'd only try that with the positive quality that one kind of spirit tends to like the summoner (Spirit Affinity?)

My group has agreed that such high-force spirits will usually use edge to resist binding, for the reasons you give. Beings of that power don´t like to be slaves. That limits high-end binding to (your magic rating), nobody wants that kind of physical drain.

Summoning can be handled. The force 9 rolls less dice than any mage whistling it up is likely to have, and any service you end up with it IS worth the pain. If the char is build for drain resistance, there won´t be much drain.

So high force spirits are completely unbindable then. A Force 9 spirit is rolling TWENTY SEVEN exploding dice to resist binding.



So why do they come and be slaves for the day for a normal Summon? Why do lesser spirits suddenly decide being bound isn't so bad when they can roll 15 (average DV=12) or 18 (average DV=14) exploding dice to KO their binder and go free? It only takes a smidge of luck for a F5 or F6 spirit to successfully resist Binding by KOing their summoner, so why do they submit?


With a F9 spirit scoring an average of ~10 hits for a 20 DV, nobody can *survive* that kind of phys. Drain.

I appreciate your table not fancying superhard spirits running about ruling the roost, but your justifications don't stack up.

1. Yes, that is the intent. A guardian force 9 is usually better than any samurai on the team.

2. I did not say they come to be slaves. They are kindly asked for help, and choose to comply in the case of masterful summoners, in situations of need. The timeframe of their service is limited, usually early than sunset/sunrise because the services are spend. Force 5 or 6 spirits deem it acceptable to serve if treated right - the summoner is a comparativly much more acceptable master. The more intelligent and strong the spirit, the more liberties it takes with its orders. Ever read the Bartimaeus triology? (Which would justify always spending edge against summoning and binding, but that is not supposed to happen in SR)

It all depends on how much of a dick you want to be to your players really. Sure, if a mage abuses spirits that is one thing. But this general slap in their face? Comon..
Binding a force 9 spirit can (more likely will unless it is a really good summoner spending edge) kill you even without edge on the part of the spirit. There really is no need to make this harder at all.

As a sidenote: a mage reliably (= not drop dead or half dead from drain) able to summon (and maybe bind) a force 9 spirit should not be grouping with a sucky samurai. If your team goes hardcore, then all members should.

?? I have not advocated generally using edge against summoning and binding. I said that Bartimaeus would do that.

But spirits have inalienable rights as sapient beings! Binding is just another form of slavery!

Spiritual liberty! Overthrow the Slaver Mages! Down with Demonocracy!

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist!

I think putting spirits into a vessel for a year and a day is more like enslaving them. Binding spirits is more like you are getting favors out of them. I think the higher level spirit if you try to give them an order that will kill kill them they might try to find some loophole out of your request, or just simply try to resist the mage. Generally all being defeated means on the astral or on the earth is that they experience a large amount of pain before they are sent back to their own plane of existence.

Depending on your Summoner's tradition, it may be reasonable that the "Binding" (which is a mechanic) could be interpreted as building a stronger relationship with the Spirit, so that it will answer when called, whether that's because of ancient pacts made by Hermetic Mages and Illuminati of old, or because of ancient family ties. Why is Binding *necessarily* any more coercive than Summoning? Or any weaker?

Looked at from another angle, a "scientific" Tradition might view spirits as *summoned into being* by the Summoner, rather than as entities in their own right (yeah, it gets pretty solipsistic at that point...). In that case, they're just lumps of ego-formed element (or Id-bound archetypes) and therefore subject to the will of the Mage; any edge expenditure then would be a failure of the will of the Sorcerer...


No idea what it is.

Such attitudes are not only possible, but assumed for spirits of an "appropiate" rating. The hate high-force spirits have for weak masters is game-balance induced. Call it a subconscious "I should not manage that" if you want, or whatever works for your individual concept.