Is Binding/Bound Spirits worth it? I think it is but my friends say I am wasting my money/BP by doing it...what is the consensus?

Short answer yes they are worth it. I am sure someone else will give more details, but it is one of the few things that a mage spends most of their money on outside of foci. BP, if you are talking about having a bound spirit at chargen, is not worth it however.

what about the ally spirit from street magic? is that worth the karma? they seem really cool but very karma hungry...

I am personally a fan of them, but I know that some other people don't care much for ally spirits. It really depends more upon what kind of mage you are going to be playing. There are much better metamagics and karma sinks for combat heavy mages (centering, shielding, etc.), but say you are a healer who wants a good spirit to protect him and help with other tasks, then an ally spirit may just be the perfect thing for you.

Also, dikoting your ally spirit is teh wins!

Trigger makes some good points.

I personally try not to rely on bound spirits too much, they can get pricey if you're burning through them all the time but they're a really handy backup. I typically keep one or two high force spirits bound, a handful of low force spirits and a couple watchers. If I can, I try and summon things on the fly though. The bound spirits are mostly there as a distraction/added firepower if something unexpected comes up.

Heck yeah. You can destroy the world if you specialize is binding, and have a large cap for spirits. (You can only have one unbound spirit at a time, but you can snap your fingers and have your whole posse of bound spirits appear. REALLY bad day. Plus it's awsome for possession traditions. Super zombie minions.)

Pre SM errata they were very much worth it as they could sustain spells from any category of spell indefinitely.

As it is, having an ally still is nice as they can be quite useful with aid sorcery and aid study as well as a spellcasting helper or spy via the sense link.

But not sure that they _really_ are worth the cost, which is why some people house rule cheaper costs for them.

Much as I enjoy possession traditions, it's still generally weaker to call up a horde of zombie minions that you have to drag around everywhere with you than it is to snap your fingers and suddenly be surrounded by half a dozen manifest spirits. Plus they don't stink up your apartment quite so much.

*laughs* Oh yeah, it's in no way more efficient. It's just cool to have zombie minions. Take some watchers and stick them in prepared vessels. Go my pigmie zombie minions from The Mummy 2!

No, if your being practical (and if you have a possession tradition), you tell your bound spirits to possess the enemy Street Sams.

Anyway, point still stands. You really can destroy a good chuck of property with high force bound spirits. The mages who are called in to deal with the spirits will only be able to have one unbound spirit each. And even if they have some bound ones for backup (and they probably will, since the corp would be footing the bill), you can still probably throw down, because yours are likely to be a little more powerful, and you should have more of them (unless your GM is really mad at you). That is of course if your specialized in binding.

oh heck yeah
I had a shaman who paired with the party rigger/ They shared the van, on one run we ended up needing a FAST escape. so we all pilled into the van, and I had my force 6 earth spirit use its guard and movement powers on the thing while the rigger floored it.
we did somehting like 300 miles an hour on that thing. later that week, that same spirit flattened a housing complex by vacating the foundation. I told it to bring down a barrier, and it flattened the plex.

Binding at chargen isn't really worth it, because you get so few equivalent uses of binding components for a BP. Seriously, a BP of money gets you like two sets of Rating 5 conjuring materials, which should get you more than a service.

But binding spirits in general is very worth it.

-Frank

Trouble with that approach is that you need to have a decent Summon *and* a decent Bind skill to get a max force spirit to hang around with any decent number of services... Or so it seems to me; you're rolling numbers of dice even with the Spirit, at best, if you're softmaxed. You can buy a couple of bound spirits at max force with a couple of services each to tide you over in emergencies where you need more than one spirit until you get good at Binding, for *many* fewer BPs than it takes to get to Binding 5.

Binding force 3-5 spirits is always worth it (exact force depends on the magicians abilities). Each service will cost a few hundred , but concealment from a rating 5 can be worth it really fast.

Find a configuration of bound spirits that offers the powers you want, favouring supporting powers (ie concealment, weather control, magical guard). In order to improve the economics of binding, make frequent use of summoning. You will often have time to bind the spirit if you got a sizeable number of services, nothing lost if you don´t.

Ally spirits are worth it if you dump much karma on them. Most players (including me) prefer to increase their chars power, but saving up for a high-force ally is almost game-breakingly good. The base cost is a linear function of force, but both the number and the dicepools of the spirits powers increase with force. As the cost for improving force later on is double as high, you will want to favour force at ally creation, and add all "gimmick" abilities later. Don´t even start below force 5.

The hits come from summoning the spirit, you just need one net hit on the binding attempt. Edge regenerates, BPs don´t.

Amen, brother.

[shrug] Edge is also ver' handy for doing things spirits can't help with. If you're struggling to get 1 net hit on the Bind, you're liable to end up KOed from the drain... Horses for courses. Yes, in the long run, it's more efficient to summon in-game, but you have to live that long...

when you summon a spirit and before you bind it, can you use a spell like orgasm to reduce the number of dice they can roll to resist binding? in a way, you would be seducing the spirit into service

*blink*

That's very... inventive.

Heh. I'm...not sure about that one. I've never had anyone try it before, so yeah, very inventive.

Then again, I'd be torn. On one hand I'd be inclined to having spirits toss in edge more to resist summonings and bindings by this mage as his reputation for inflicting his summoned spirits with magical sexual abuse. On the other, it'd be just as fun to start having him get swarmed by free spirits who heard that "he's one to look up for a good time". Your magical phone number posted on spiritual bathroom stalls all over the cosmos so to speak.

In either case, I don't think I'd let the mage get away with it completely without consequence, though I'm definitely amused by the slight sidestep of the rules. Just at my table though. If you have a GM that'd go for it, more power to you and mind the spurting ectoplasm.

I play a summoner with comparativly low binding. If I need HELP, I whistle up a force 7 guardian spirit. It´s certainly nice to have a couple of force 5´s extra, but not necessary. I could see it for pick-up games though.

I´d give the spells net hits as bonus dice. Similar effect, but no reduced drain. My own mage unfortunately prefers spirits with magical guard, so he wouldn´t gain much...

Hmmm, busted, dang...

I sidled up to this about a week ago. I had previously expressed the opinion that Innate Spell, as a Critter Power, did not cause Sustaining Penalties and was loudly, and almost universally, shouted down by the good folks on Dumpshock. Innate Spell gives a Spirit the ability to cast one spell in the normal manner, including Drain and Sustaining Penalties.

RAW the only thing that Sustaining Penalties do not apply to is Drain. If you happen to be summoning a Spirit with the intent of giving it a bunch of stat boosting spells, making it cast and sustain said spells before you start to Bind it actually makes it easier to succeed.

That's so...I dunno what to even call it. I agree there's nothing I can find by raw that would stop this from happening, but I'd still want to thwap one of my players in the back of the head if they tried it on me.

Then again, this is why I love Dumpshock. It's almost inevitable that people here will think of strange things I've never considered before my players pull them on me, so I have time to prepare a counter.

"Not no, but hell no."

Learn it.

Use it.

Enjoy it.

Best counter out there.

yeah I love bring really broken stuff here so I can get it out of my system without cheese anywhere near my table.


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Also for even more RAW goodness, even if you had a GM who said that people aren't penalized on resistance rolls, you could always fall back on mana static to drop them down a force or two, every hit you can get spell casting costs them 2 dice.

My current PC is an elven shaman with soft-maxed CHA, so he can have 7 bound spirits. Showing up with one unbound and seven bound spirits can be fairly impressive. If it's so impressive that people surrender or cooperate (or at least decide not to attack) rather than risk getting swarmed by eight spirits, then hey, he gets good results without actually expending services. Currently his posse is Force 3 spirits (just enough to have an optional power), so that's 7x3x500 in binding materials, or 10,500 nuyen. For the same money, he could buy a pair of Doberman drones equipped with loaded Ares Alpha assault rifles... and the drones have unlimited services... but his posse can follow him astrally, can't be hacked by riggers, and has a variety of useful noncombat abilities such as Guard and Psychokinesis.

A bound spirit uses one service to sustain a spell for the mage for F (force) turns, so if he wanted to fight with full buffs and no sustaining penalty, he could cast Increase Reflexes and have a bound Spirit of Earth sustain it, cast Combat Sense and have a Spirit of Water sustain it, and cast Invisibility and have a Spirit of Air sustain it. Alternatively, he could bind a Spirit of Man with Innate Spell: Increase Reflexes, another with Innate Spell: Combat Sense, and a third with Innate Spell: Invisibility... then snap his fingers as the signal for each spirit to cast its spell on him, have all three spells go up in one IP, and have the spirits sustain the buff spells until the next dawn/dusk. This is why he has specialization in Binding: Spirits of Man.

A bound spirit with Innate Spell: Heal and the instruction "heal me if I get injured" is a nice backup option; so is a bound spirit ready to Conceal and Movement a getaway/escape. For those who can bind Task spirits, getting one with appropriate skills to release a prisoner would be real handy if you got captured, because you could have it show up and remove your handcuffs, open the cell door, etc. (Then again, if the cell is warded, too bad for that plan.)

Dude!

You realize the GM is at liberty to hit you with a 12 Dice Penalty to all action when you show up with that lot?

Presumably the GM has already told him whether he is using that optional rule.
I would hope that he asked the GM about that.
But, if I asked, and the GM said we were not using that rule, I would be very unhappy if the GM suddenly decided I was too strong and started using that rule. Things like that affect the choice of character I take to start with.

Joel

1. That optional rule is fucking retarded.
2. It's an optional rule, not a floating penalty. Either your game uses it, or your gamemaster isn't a twat and you don't.

-Frank

I see that rule as the RAW suggesting a penalty for Mages that are abusive to there spirits. Mostly because well


The character in question has been RPing an intensely respective shaman. So I don't see a need

Trouble is that it isn't an optional rule. It's core with optional application by GM fiat.

As to the rest? You won't hear me arguing with you about it.

Actually if a character/player was doing that trick with all those spirits bound and doing pretty much constantly would find that the summoning/binding of said spirits would get harder and harder.

Yes it is a game but not all the role playing is on the player/character side, the npc's/spirits get role played also.

WMS

Eh. I don't have any problems with a very charismatic shaman type forming a series of lasting bargains (bindings) with a large number of spirits willing to aid him as they can. Now if he was going out of his way to send them in to situations they're almost assuredly going to get killed in or generally being a dick to them, then I'd start pulling out resting penalties and edge on binding rolls. A dedicated summoner who relies on his spirit allies is a perfectly valid concept to me.

From a balance perspective I don't think it's that much of an issue. Logic links to a lot more magician skills than charisma, so throwing charisma magi a bone fine. Social skills are about even with technical skills, and both marry well with magic.

From what I seen and read most do not even go that far, but use them as high cost cannon fodder lackeys/flunkies.

WMS

It's a neat tactic. If I was behind the Big Black Screen, I might consider it grounds to put that big "Spirit Abuser" sticker on your aura, though.

Ah. Well, there's a sub-question: is using bound spirits as disposable grunts worth it?
By WMS account, some players run characters who do so.
If the GM is OK with that, well, it's probably worthwhile, since an F5 spirit can tear up low-rating mundanes such as gangers or guards with ease.
If the GM applies the rules in which spirits resent being used that way, it could quickly become a bad strategy.

Even so, though, if I understand correctly, if one has seven unhappy bound spirits who are "off duty", there's no penalty; keeping them on leash causes -2 for each only while they're at hand. If a mage gets into a warded bunker, calls up his posse of spirits and sics them on the target, then he takes -12 while sitting in a bunker and waiting. When the dust settles, he puts the surviving spirits on standby, then goes to the now-devastated target and loots the bodies.

My PC uses bound spirits more often for spellcasting, spell sustaining, Movement, Concealment, Guard, and other tasks which don't even require them to materialize. He once sent a spirit into combat, and the spirit got killed by a single attack from a monowhip-wielding adept. (It musta been a weapon focus to do 12 boxes in one attack.) If the spirit had been wounded, the PC would have immediately ordered it to disengage. The PC resolved to be more careful about sending spirits into combat. I suppose that people who train horses or dogs have similar range of treating them as valuable allies vs. as disposable minions.

Another PC in the group rebinds spirits. This yields fewer services per use of binding materials than binding a spirit which has services from the Summoning roll, but the GM roleplays rebound spirits as being loyal and possibly more familiar with the PC and the mundane world, than "fresh off the boat" spirits from a new Summoning.

One good use for bound spirits is a variation of the classic pre-unarmed meet weapon smuggling tactic, if you happen to have a guardian spirit. You know a well-guarded VIP target will be at a certain place for a meeting. Long before the meeting you sneak a gun into the bathroom. Then you send in a Guardian, who enters the bathroom astrally, grabs the gun, and shoot the mages first because they're expecting spirit opposition to be spending complex actions on spells, melee combat, and ranged elemental attacks instead of just blasting them with a heavy pistol. This also works well with sniping.

And lets not overlook the usefulness of an Ally with flight and longarms skill flying around with a large caliber rifle (or an ally with the heavy weapons skill flying around with a missile launcher or assault cannon).
"That's my Ally Spirit. You're all going to die." Ha!, we have five initiates performing counterspelling and our armor is resistant to all elements! Your magical minion can't possibly harm us." *The sound of a minigun spinning up* "Oh, I think he can."

I would like to chime in on messing with spirits when you are trying to bind them. Although orgasm gives pleasure to the person in question, there might be too much of a good thing is a bad thing going on and the spirit might spend edge to try and get out of the situation. I would probably roll it's "logic" threshold 2 to determine if it would try and struggle as hard as it possibly could to escape the binding.

One would think if you are trying to penalize a spirit when binding you know.... a spirit might be wise to what you are trying to do and think that you might not treat it well. Maybe rebinding a spirit that you have used for a long time might not use edge against you, but a new one certainly might.

"Abusing" spirits is a case by case call, and I think only constantly sending spirits to be put in a box o' hurt constantly would give you a bad name.

If you can use spirits as disposeable grunts depends on the campaigns power level. Security expecting street samurai will be able to deal with force 5 spirits. It is IMO better to cover combat with summoning, especially if you take spirits that like combat. You get to discuss the disposeable part with a guardian 7 spirit. Warning: I think its like calling a dragon "ordinary".

The unbalancing point about spirits is not their number, but their potential individual power. I´d be more worried by the plan to summon a single force 9 than binding a group of force 5. The logical solution is to not punish the usage of multiple spirits. Edge used against the binding attempt is the punishment of choice for mistreatment of spirits.

A force 9 spirit has the potential to resist pretty hard, probably just 6 boxes but could be 18, so be ready to spend Edge on the Drain roll!
Also, it's more logical, more intuitive, and more strong-willed than the summoner, so I'd give it really broadly phrased directions, and I'd say "please", and hope that it chose to interpret the directions helpfully. Micromanaging a LOG 9 INT 9 WIL 9 entity strikes me as not such a good idea. I'd only try that with the positive quality that one kind of spirit tends to like the summoner (Spirit Affinity?)

My group has agreed that such high-force spirits will usually use edge to resist binding, for the reasons you give. Beings of that power don´t like to be slaves. That limits high-end binding to (your magic rating), nobody wants that kind of physical drain.

Summoning can be handled. The force 9 rolls less dice than any mage whistling it up is likely to have, and any service you end up with it IS worth the pain. If the char is build for drain resistance, there won´t be much drain.

So high force spirits are completely unbindable then. A Force 9 spirit is rolling TWENTY SEVEN exploding dice to resist binding.



So why do they come and be slaves for the day for a normal Summon? Why do lesser spirits suddenly decide being bound isn't so bad when they can roll 15 (average DV=12) or 18 (average DV=14) exploding dice to KO their binder and go free? It only takes a smidge of luck for a F5 or F6 spirit to successfully resist Binding by KOing their summoner, so why do they submit?


With a F9 spirit scoring an average of ~10 hits for a 20 DV, nobody can *survive* that kind of phys. Drain.

I appreciate your table not fancying superhard spirits running about ruling the roost, but your justifications don't stack up.

1. Yes, that is the intent. A guardian force 9 is usually better than any samurai on the team.

2. I did not say they come to be slaves. They are kindly asked for help, and choose to comply in the case of masterful summoners, in situations of need. The timeframe of their service is limited, usually early than sunset/sunrise because the services are spend. Force 5 or 6 spirits deem it acceptable to serve if treated right - the summoner is a comparativly much more acceptable master. The more intelligent and strong the spirit, the more liberties it takes with its orders. Ever read the Bartimaeus triology? (Which would justify always spending edge against summoning and binding, but that is not supposed to happen in SR)

It all depends on how much of a dick you want to be to your players really. Sure, if a mage abuses spirits that is one thing. But this general slap in their face? Comon..
Binding a force 9 spirit can (more likely will unless it is a really good summoner spending edge) kill you even without edge on the part of the spirit. There really is no need to make this harder at all.

As a sidenote: a mage reliably (= not drop dead or half dead from drain) able to summon (and maybe bind) a force 9 spirit should not be grouping with a sucky samurai. If your team goes hardcore, then all members should.

?? I have not advocated generally using edge against summoning and binding. I said that Bartimaeus would do that.

But spirits have inalienable rights as sapient beings! Binding is just another form of slavery!

Spiritual liberty! Overthrow the Slaver Mages! Down with Demonocracy!

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist!

I think putting spirits into a vessel for a year and a day is more like enslaving them. Binding spirits is more like you are getting favors out of them. I think the higher level spirit if you try to give them an order that will kill kill them they might try to find some loophole out of your request, or just simply try to resist the mage. Generally all being defeated means on the astral or on the earth is that they experience a large amount of pain before they are sent back to their own plane of existence.

Depending on your Summoner's tradition, it may be reasonable that the "Binding" (which is a mechanic) could be interpreted as building a stronger relationship with the Spirit, so that it will answer when called, whether that's because of ancient pacts made by Hermetic Mages and Illuminati of old, or because of ancient family ties. Why is Binding *necessarily* any more coercive than Summoning? Or any weaker?

Looked at from another angle, a "scientific" Tradition might view spirits as *summoned into being* by the Summoner, rather than as entities in their own right (yeah, it gets pretty solipsistic at that point...). In that case, they're just lumps of ego-formed element (or Id-bound archetypes) and therefore subject to the will of the Mage; any edge expenditure then would be a failure of the will of the Sorcerer...


No idea what it is.

Such attitudes are not only possible, but assumed for spirits of an "appropiate" rating. The hate high-force spirits have for weak masters is game-balance induced. Call it a subconscious "I should not manage that" if you want, or whatever works for your individual concept.