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NightmareX
post Aug 24 2008, 10:08 AM
Post #1


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QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 23 2008, 11:49 AM) *
Well I'm very serious about it too. So can we put together our common complaints about 4th edition and start from there? See if we can create solutions that are generally appealing to both new and old communities.

* NAN treatment
* Tir treatment
* Technomancers
* Character creation
* Shadowslang
* Too much Wi-Fi
* better Vehicle integration

Please add or subtract from this list as you see fit.


Initially I would say my biggest issues are as follows:

Things that can be easily solved
* Lack of clarification/information on the world setting (which includes NAN and Tir treatment)
* Lack of shadowslang
* Cyberware as passe (not acceptable - this is a cyberpunk game)

Things that can kinda be solved
* WiFi inanity (to put it succinctly, why is there a computer in everything including my underwear? Why can the hacker take control of my cyberarm, and why does my non-smartlinked gun have a computer that can shut it down in it?)
* Vehicle integration (it would help - we don't even use Maneuver score)
* Edge (in that to kill anyone you essentially have to kill them a number of times equal to their edge score)

Things that can't easily be solved
* Technomancers (in the manner that they essentially are magical by the powers and fluff, and in the sense that they are somewhat overpowered)
* AI proliferation (why is every frikkin program waking up as an AI?)
* Dead plotlines
* Dead NPCs/institutions (ie Shadowland)

I don't have a major problem with character creation in this system, as noted.

Thoughts anyone?

Edited to add - This thread is not intended as yet another bitch session about 4th edition. It is not meant to tell people they are GMing or playing the game wrong, or to just say GM fiat or house rule everything. None of that is productive.

What this thread is intended for is to bring together the problems people have with 4th edition with an eye toward finding ways to work through them - whether that means correcting misconceptions, finding and addressing real problems, or whatever else between those extremes - with hope that Catalyst may take some notice in regards to future development so the maximum number of SR fans can enjoy at least part of SR4. Note I say future, because IMO invalidating existing SR4 material is unacceptable. We cannot however control what Catalyst does, but it is my hope that in coming to some sort of compromise on the issues brought up in this thread we can at least mute the continual flame wars over the subject here. I am, of course, not optimistic about that.
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Posts in this topic
- NightmareX   Compromise   Aug 24 2008, 10:08 AM
- - sunnyside   I'd vote for "to much wi-fi" to be s...   Aug 24 2008, 11:51 AM
|- - NightmareX   QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 24 2008, 06:51 AM)...   Aug 24 2008, 03:42 PM
- - Eugene   A couple comments: I'm all about more updates ...   Aug 24 2008, 12:31 PM
|- - NightmareX   QUOTE (Eugene @ Aug 24 2008, 07:31 AM) I ...   Aug 24 2008, 03:42 PM
|- - Not of this World   QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 24 2008, 08:42 AM...   Aug 24 2008, 06:26 PM
- - Rasumichin   Hm, let's take a look at that. QUOTE (Nightma...   Aug 24 2008, 01:37 PM
- - hermit   QUOTE When you waltz into a city, wreaking havoc, ...   Aug 24 2008, 02:10 PM
|- - NightmareX   QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 24 2008, 09:10 AM) Fi...   Aug 24 2008, 03:43 PM
|- - Not of this World   QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 24 2008, 08:43 AM...   Aug 24 2008, 06:31 PM
- - sunnyside   I also kinda like how they do cyberware. I know t...   Aug 24 2008, 02:13 PM
- - VagabondStar   A lot of the complaint seems to stem from whether ...   Aug 24 2008, 02:22 PM
|- - Not of this World   QUOTE (VagabondStar @ Aug 24 2008, 07:22 ...   Aug 24 2008, 07:20 PM
- - ElFenrir   Honestly, I think the Edge rule should stay as is....   Aug 24 2008, 03:48 PM
|- - NightmareX   QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Aug 24 2008, 10:48 AM) ...   Aug 24 2008, 03:56 PM
- - Rasumichin   I completely agree on Hermit's notion of havin...   Aug 24 2008, 04:08 PM
- - sunnyside   By the way where is the device rating for underwea...   Aug 24 2008, 04:15 PM
|- - NightmareX   QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 24 2008, 11:15 AM)...   Aug 26 2008, 08:08 AM
- - ElFenrir   I gotcha. Sorry if I seemed to react a bit '...   Aug 24 2008, 04:20 PM
|- - Rasumichin   QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Aug 24 2008, 04:20 PM) ...   Aug 24 2008, 04:28 PM
- - psychophipps   I love the wi-fi, myself. Just remember that anyt...   Aug 24 2008, 04:36 PM
- - ElFenrir   Most of my grit is in the background, so to speak-...   Aug 24 2008, 04:37 PM
- - hermit   QUOTE You'd need wireless control for that. Ye...   Aug 24 2008, 05:39 PM
|- - sunnyside   QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 24 2008, 12:39 PM) Ye...   Aug 24 2008, 07:14 PM
- - Eugene   On the "wireless underwear" topic (sort ...   Aug 24 2008, 06:04 PM
- - hermit   QUOTE Well maybe for "shock" in terms of...   Aug 24 2008, 07:33 PM
|- - sunnyside   QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 24 2008, 03:33 PM) I ...   Aug 24 2008, 08:12 PM
|- - Not of this World   Actually a good hack can and does push things beyo...   Aug 24 2008, 09:01 PM
|- - Jackstand   QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 24 2008, 04...   Aug 24 2008, 11:43 PM
- - Cain   QUOTE After a five-year lapse in the timeline and ...   Aug 24 2008, 10:22 PM
|- - Rasumichin   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 24 2008, 11:22 PM) They...   Aug 24 2008, 11:01 PM
|- - sunnyside   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 24 2008, 06:22 PM) Not ...   Aug 25 2008, 03:52 AM
|- - Blade   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 25 2008, 12:22 AM) Not ...   Aug 25 2008, 08:00 AM
- - Cain   QUOTE What's less believable is that technolog...   Aug 25 2008, 05:22 AM
|- - sunnyside   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 25 2008, 12:22 AM) Oh, ...   Aug 25 2008, 06:50 AM
- - kzt   Yes, having the developer/writers saying what the ...   Aug 25 2008, 05:28 AM
- - Not of this World   Getting the thread back on topic and updating the ...   Aug 25 2008, 06:31 AM
|- - Fuchs   QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 25 2008, 08...   Aug 25 2008, 09:35 AM
|- - Ryu   QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 25 2008, 08...   Aug 25 2008, 12:23 PM
- - hobgoblin   it seems to me that the people here thats going wi...   Aug 25 2008, 07:46 AM
|- - sunnyside   QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 25 2008, 02:46 AM)...   Aug 25 2008, 08:25 AM
- - Heath Robinson   As we're all laying out our major gripes, I fi...   Aug 25 2008, 07:52 AM
- - BullZeye   I first thought not to comment but now after readi...   Aug 25 2008, 08:00 AM
- - hobgoblin   the number of people that do not for some reason o...   Aug 25 2008, 08:04 AM
- - Cardul   To the people talking about technomancers? Neither...   Aug 25 2008, 08:26 AM
- - hermit   QUOTE Actually yeah sometimes I see that. Why even...   Aug 25 2008, 09:21 AM
|- - sunnyside   QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 25 2008, 05:21 AM) Yo...   Aug 25 2008, 09:51 AM
||- - hobgoblin   QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 25 2008, 11:51 AM)...   Aug 25 2008, 10:09 AM
|- - Cardul   QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 25 2008, 04:21 AM) @C...   Aug 25 2008, 10:54 AM
- - hermit   QUOTE the clustering rules are not that bad. and i...   Aug 25 2008, 10:20 AM
|- - hobgoblin   QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 25 2008, 12:20 PM) Th...   Aug 25 2008, 10:26 AM
- - hermit   QUOTE and one can turn linux boxes into a cluster ...   Aug 25 2008, 10:36 AM
|- - sunnyside   QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 25 2008, 06:36 AM) Ha...   Aug 25 2008, 11:43 AM
- - Voran   Some of my thoughts: The Cyberpunk element has al...   Aug 25 2008, 10:41 AM
|- - Grinder   QUOTE (Voran @ Aug 25 2008, 12:41 PM) Tir...   Aug 25 2008, 01:27 PM
- - tete   My biggest problem with edge is that starting ch...   Aug 25 2008, 02:05 PM
- - sunnyside   Edge is used for re-rolls and avoiding glitches as...   Aug 25 2008, 02:11 PM
|- - tete   QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 25 2008, 02:11 PM)...   Aug 25 2008, 10:41 PM
- - Not of this World   For those of you advocating we shouldn't have ...   Aug 25 2008, 06:45 PM
|- - Redjack   QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 25 2008, 01...   Aug 25 2008, 06:51 PM
- - Not of this World   Then my comment wouldn't apply because you thi...   Aug 25 2008, 07:05 PM
- - Redjack   QUOTE (Not of this World)For those of you advocati...   Aug 25 2008, 08:35 PM
- - Rasumichin   Concerning the new magic system, it was actually o...   Aug 25 2008, 08:42 PM
|- - Not of this World   QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 25 2008, 01:42 PM...   Aug 25 2008, 10:08 PM
|- - Rasumichin   QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 25 2008, 11...   Aug 25 2008, 10:49 PM
|- - Not of this World   QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 25 2008, 03:49 PM...   Aug 26 2008, 12:32 AM
- - Cain   QUOTE Ok to be fair many settings do have a step b...   Aug 25 2008, 08:47 PM
|- - MYST1C   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 25 2008, 10:47 PM) The ...   Aug 25 2008, 09:54 PM
|- - KCKitsune   QUOTE (MYST1C @ Aug 25 2008, 05:54 PM) An...   Aug 26 2008, 04:55 AM
|- - Fuchs   QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Aug 26 2008, 06:55 AM)...   Aug 26 2008, 07:18 AM
|- - MYST1C   QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Aug 26 2008, 06:55 AM)...   Aug 26 2008, 07:49 AM
- - Matsci   Why does everyone assume that the technoligy for a...   Aug 25 2008, 10:21 PM
- - Ryu   As I said: Dragons of the Sixth World, pg. 52. The...   Aug 25 2008, 10:33 PM
- - Heath Robinson   About slang, I find the attempt to whitewash out a...   Aug 25 2008, 11:48 PM
|- - Not of this World   QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Aug 25 2008, 04:4...   Aug 26 2008, 12:37 AM
- - Cain   QUOTE Why does everyone assume that the technoligy...   Aug 26 2008, 12:45 AM
|- - Rasumichin   QUOTE As I said, I actually don't mind the ope...   Aug 26 2008, 01:18 AM
- - Cain   QUOTE Fortunately it's so easy to build a trad...   Aug 26 2008, 01:33 AM
|- - Rasumichin   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 26 2008, 01:33 AM) Unfo...   Aug 26 2008, 01:57 AM
- - Heath Robinson   Some, or all, of the slang in Shadowrun was select...   Aug 26 2008, 02:26 AM
|- - Not of this World   QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Aug 25 2008, 07:2...   Aug 26 2008, 02:44 AM
|- - Heath Robinson   QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 26 2008, 03...   Aug 26 2008, 04:56 AM
- - Cain   QUOTE Well, having to cram all the stuff from old ...   Aug 26 2008, 05:09 AM
|- - Mäx   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 26 2008, 08:09 AM) For ...   Aug 26 2008, 09:43 AM
- - Blade   Funny I remember reading Dumpshock in the SR3 days...   Aug 26 2008, 08:48 AM
- - GreyBrother   Question: What's about that Universal Magic Th...   Aug 26 2008, 11:05 AM
- - Grinder   It has been introduced in one of the SOTA:206x-boo...   Aug 26 2008, 11:18 AM
- - hobgoblin   just checked, and sota64 had it as minor school/pa...   Aug 26 2008, 11:32 AM
- - Wesley Street   Jumping in late here but Augmentation clears up a ...   Aug 26 2008, 01:50 PM
- - hobgoblin   and probably have their more sensitive servers beh...   Aug 26 2008, 02:08 PM
- - Wesley Street   Yeah, that was detailed in the Network Security se...   Aug 26 2008, 02:24 PM
|- - hobgoblin   QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 26 2008, 04:24...   Aug 26 2008, 04:00 PM
|- - kzt   QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 26 2008, 07:24...   Aug 26 2008, 04:46 PM
- - GreyBrother   @ Grinder & hobgoblin: Just checked SOTA64. Ye...   Aug 26 2008, 02:59 PM
|- - hobgoblin   QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 26 2008, 04:59 P...   Aug 26 2008, 03:59 PM
|- - GreyBrother   hobgoblin: If you could give me a hint what the bo...   Aug 26 2008, 05:29 PM
- - Wesley Street   Unwired, page 62: Hills and other earthen features...   Aug 26 2008, 05:14 PM
- - Ryu   SOTA 2064, German pg. 119, the 2060 United Thaumat...   Aug 26 2008, 05:57 PM
|- - hobgoblin   QUOTE (Ryu @ Aug 26 2008, 07:57 PM) SOTA ...   Aug 26 2008, 06:11 PM
- - GreyBrother   Well, it says something about the Tradition as its...   Aug 26 2008, 07:14 PM
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