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NightmareX
QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 23 2008, 11:49 AM) *
Well I'm very serious about it too. So can we put together our common complaints about 4th edition and start from there? See if we can create solutions that are generally appealing to both new and old communities.

* NAN treatment
* Tir treatment
* Technomancers
* Character creation
* Shadowslang
* Too much Wi-Fi
* better Vehicle integration

Please add or subtract from this list as you see fit.


Initially I would say my biggest issues are as follows:

Things that can be easily solved
* Lack of clarification/information on the world setting (which includes NAN and Tir treatment)
* Lack of shadowslang
* Cyberware as passe (not acceptable - this is a cyberpunk game)

Things that can kinda be solved
* WiFi inanity (to put it succinctly, why is there a computer in everything including my underwear? Why can the hacker take control of my cyberarm, and why does my non-smartlinked gun have a computer that can shut it down in it?)
* Vehicle integration (it would help - we don't even use Maneuver score)
* Edge (in that to kill anyone you essentially have to kill them a number of times equal to their edge score)

Things that can't easily be solved
* Technomancers (in the manner that they essentially are magical by the powers and fluff, and in the sense that they are somewhat overpowered)
* AI proliferation (why is every frikkin program waking up as an AI?)
* Dead plotlines
* Dead NPCs/institutions (ie Shadowland)

I don't have a major problem with character creation in this system, as noted.

Thoughts anyone?

Edited to add - This thread is not intended as yet another bitch session about 4th edition. It is not meant to tell people they are GMing or playing the game wrong, or to just say GM fiat or house rule everything. None of that is productive.

What this thread is intended for is to bring together the problems people have with 4th edition with an eye toward finding ways to work through them - whether that means correcting misconceptions, finding and addressing real problems, or whatever else between those extremes - with hope that Catalyst may take some notice in regards to future development so the maximum number of SR fans can enjoy at least part of SR4. Note I say future, because IMO invalidating existing SR4 material is unacceptable. We cannot however control what Catalyst does, but it is my hope that in coming to some sort of compromise on the issues brought up in this thread we can at least mute the continual flame wars over the subject here. I am, of course, not optimistic about that.
sunnyside
I'd vote for "to much wi-fi" to be stricken from the list.

It's the best thing about 4th edition and I'm not alone in thinking that (see the "why Shadowrun" thread from a while back).

Not only does it make for a lot interesting game for the hacker but it actually has some future flavor, instead of a 1980's dial up vibe.

Plus think about it. Seriously. You're probably typing that with a cell phone that can surf the web and make videos in your pocket, a bluetooth headset on hand or in your ear, two USB keys in your pocket, an IPOD with more songs on it than your parents had in their entire music collection, a calculator in your backpack with at least some infrared linkup capability and that can solve problems you'd have needed a room full of PhDs to handle 20 years ago, you may have a laptop to boot, and a digital wristwatch that you wish could figure out to update itself when you change time zones.

And maybe later you'll go out geocaching.

And when they finally add some wireless funcitonality to the digital toasters they'll probably sell. Who wouldn't want to dial up a bagel in the morning?

http://images1.hdpi.com/product/Toastess_D...slice_TT389.jpg
Eugene
A couple comments: I'm all about more updates to the world, but I -like- the wifi and I don't think I miss the shadow slang. A lot of that stuff was originally used to avoid using real swears (because, you know, that's more threatening to our children than the fact that they're playing criminals). Now that swears are back in...

As far as cyberware being passe, I think that's fine too. "Count Zero" was written in 86 (re-reading it now) and a lot has changed since then. If we're not going to insist any more on the 80s "style", I think it's ok to re-evaluate the place of cyber. It's even fun to think of it as the consciously retro choice. And it's not like you don't have plenty of choices to zero out your essence using just cyber.

A friend and I have been arguing over the direction AI has been taking. His position is that he liked the old, undefinable, godlike nature of Deus et al. He thought that was what make them so scary and so fun to put into plots. We both like the Transhuman Space approach to AIs (where they're ubiquitous), but he feels that the Matrix loses some of its cachet if AI becomes just another persona. I'm on the fence, myself.
Rasumichin
Hm, let's take a look at that.

QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 24 2008, 10:08 AM) *
Initially I would say my biggest issues are as follows:

Things that can be easily solved
* Lack of clarification/information on the world setting (which includes NAN and Tir treatment)


After a five-year lapse in the timeline and only two fluff sourcebooks out, it should come as no surprise that SR4 has a less detailed background than previous editions.

QUOTE
* Lack of shadowslang


Basically, current shadowslang lacks three terms from previous editions : frag, drek and hoop.
As all of them are minced oaths that made me roll my eyes all the time when reading a SR sourcebook, i don't really miss them.
Might be just my bad manners, though.

QUOTE
* Cyberware as passe (not acceptable - this is a cyberpunk game)


Information on that is kinda contradictory.
There's a growing cyberfetishist scene and obvious cyberlimbs frequently appear on the streets.
Cybereyes are also extremely common.
Of course, bioware is viewed as less intrusive- because it is.

I view cyber as something common on the streets, where looking tough is an issue and no one has the money for fancy bioware.
Every thug in my game will be happy to have muscle replacement, dermal armor or wired reflexes.
And given the prices, all of those who are successfull thugs will have at least one of those implants as used ware.
Gangers with (partial) cyberlimbs are also a common sight imho.

The view of cyber as outdated is something i apply to an elitist crowd of upper-class fashion victims.
A bunch of middle management corp employees will not have obvious cyberware besides the eyes (datajacks from 10 years ago surgically removed), but will sport various bio enhancements, cerebral boosters, sleep regulators and tailored pheromones being the most common for those who can afford them.
Slimworm endosonts, hair growth biotech and silk skin are also extremely common- absolutely no one above middle lifestyle will look fat, bald and wrinkly unless they really don't care about it.

I think this interpretation comes closest to what the various statements about implants come down to.
I regard it as both consistent, flavourful and fitting for a cyberpunk game.

In fact, SR4 has the potential to be much more cyberpunk than ever before, as cyberware has finally become affordable.

QUOTE
Things that can kinda be solved
* WiFi inanity (to put it succinctly, why is there a computer in everything including my underwear? Why can the hacker take control of my cyberarm, and why does my non-smartlinked gun have a computer that can shut it down in it?)


The BBB is going too far here, agreed.

Here's how i handle it :

Every security-conscious person will avoid unnecessary wifi functionality, removing said components or replacing them with skinlinks.
On street level, my game also includes a lot of guns that never had wifi to begin with (as well as you'll find older, non-wifi items in most households, especially in middle class and below).
If a ganger tries to hose you down with an old UZI or AK 97, or a beaten-up Warhawk, there'll be no wifi involved.
I'll stick to laser pointers that activate on touching the trigger here.

Cops and secguards will have smartlinked weapons- with skinlinks.
I cannot understand how something as dangerous as a gun can not be skinlinked, though it can be useful at times to turn the skinlink off if you place a gun somewhere and fire it remotely.
But that's a rare exception, as well as the possibility to turn them off remotely if you drop them (or are forced to drop them).
Usually, they'll be slaved to their comlinks via skinlink, with enabling wireless if the skinlink is broken as an optional feature an uncareful guard might have turned on before drawing the gun sometimes.
And yes, that means the hacker can get at them- usually indirectly, after breaking the firewall and defeating the ICE on the link.

Cyberware is handled similarly, but will always rely on skinlink at best, and some implants don't need wifi at all, except for diagnostic functions.
In these cases, it will be turned on manually at the street doc and be turned of again afterwards.
Of course, implants that aren't just there and always provide a bonus, but contain various features to switch between, like cybereyes as the most common example, will be slaved to the PAN, if the user doesn't get an additional DNI implant with a signal rating of zero and independent from the PAN.
ICE strongly recommended.

Would you rather switch from low-light to infrared manually?
Some implants just need a remote control.
Often, it will be guarded carefully, but theoretically, a hacker can mess around with a lot of stuff.

I like the idea of hackers being involved with their core skills in situations that do not come down to breaking into the site's computer system.
It's an important part of fully integrating them into the team.

As far as wifi for everyday items is concerned, yes, it is damn common.
Having one remote for everything is temptingly convenient and Joe Blow on the street will use it.
He's not a security-conscious shadowrunner, he's a gullible and lazy person and prone to leave gaping holes in his matrix security.

And yes, there are people who have wifi-functional jackets.
Ruthenium polymer jackets with an atmospheric sensor and remotly regulable breather in the hood and whatnot.

But no one in my game loads down music into his jacket, unless it is one with an integrated comlink.



QUOTE
* Edge (in that to kill anyone you essentially have to kill them a number of times equal to their edge score)


Yeah, Edge can take all the fun out of the game in the hands of a carebear GM.
I wonder why anybody still fudges dicerolls nowadays (okay, that's something i wonder about anyways, but well...).

However, i think you are applying a too liberal interpretation of the Edge rules here.

Edge allows you to shape the style of play from gritty to cinematic.
Cinematic also means "heroes don't die accidentaly".

Yes, that sucks, which is why i don't handle it this way.

The hand of god rule is applicable once per character in my game- not per Edge refreshment, not per campaign, per character.
It's a second chance, not a third or fourth or fifth.

And avoiding death this way will have consequences.
The character will end up in intensive care, prison or with a severe and crippling injury.

Note that the rules on hand of god say the same, except for that they replace "once per character" with GM fiat (the overuse of GM fiat, BTW, is something that really ticks me of about 4th.


As far as the rest of your hard to fix points are concerned, i don't really care about them.
They result in a game with a different flavour, but it's one i appreciate.

I don't mind having an AI inhabiting my home entertainment system in a cyberpunk game (and like the fact that they are not godlike anymore) and i frankly don't give a damn about the IEs.

What bothers me is that IEs wheren't removed, but simply replaced by GDs.

Not that i don't like the idea of dragons as political and economical players- it is a nice twist on dragons that fits SR perfectly.
What i do mind, however, is the whole "GDs can't be killed by players, treat all of them as you pet NSC" bullshit.

Especially when i see that Lofwyr and especially Ghostwalker should be dead by now after what they pulled off in Frankfurt and Denver.
When you waltz into a city, wreaking havoc, not being protected by tons of Force12 spirits and doing all kinds of similarly stupid things, someone should just take you out with a couple of well-placed heavy gauss gun shots.
hermit
QUOTE
When you waltz into a city, wreaking havoc, not being protected by tons of Force12 spirits and doing all kinds of similarly stupid things, someone should just take you out with a couple of well-placed heavy gauss gun shots.

Lofwyr had interceptor helicopters at the ready (and god knows what else) in FFM, and Ghostwalker had an infinite number of allied spirits when he trampled Denver.

QUOTE
* NAN treatment
* Tir treatment

First and foremost, don't do more damage than has already been done. Keep Tir na nOg much like it was - it propably won't have wifi all over anyway, being technophobic as it is), let it keep it's veil and seeolie court and basically be a setting for people who like mystical elf stuff. Also, have the NAN remain native-themed (except for Pueblo, which now apparently is a Horizon subsidiary). Tone down Horizon's power, it's gotten laughable. And don't shove down AIs and all the other k3wl stuff every setting's throat. Have SR remain a system where there's something for everybody, not a setting essentially for Matrix fanboys.

QUOTE
* Technomancers

Errata the new echos so that they're somewhere near balanced. Don't overstress their importance anymore; they're not the core piece of SR and will never be so long as it remains a hint of it's original flair. Everyone who wants an RPG centering around "the One" can go and buy the Matric RPG, they don't need to play Shadowrun for that.

QUOTE
* Character creation

Actually, RC fixed that. Karmagen's a dream.

QUOTE
* Shadowslang

I don't need hoop, frag and drek to return much, myself, but could you please stop trying to pretend 4chan is the main influence on SR slang? It's so damn dorky.

QUOTE
* Too much Wi-Fi

Just keep it realistic. And try to think of a reason why the SR4 cities aren't facing EMP and explosion doom from huge swarms of amok thunderbirds (the critter). One that's remotely convincing, in in-game terms.

QUOTE
* better Vehicle integration

I don't really see the problem there, myself.

What I'd like to see solved:

- More continuity with previous stuff. Maybe drop in familiar shadowtalkers, maybe you could leave some settings relatively unchanged, maybe also bring back old equipment (especially vehicles) ...

- don't go too far into transhumanism. AIs cannot just be accepted in SR, not after how they've been used before.

- TUNE DOWN HORIZON, it's gotten far, far too ridiculuos. And don't use the word media blitz anymore. It sounds stupid and makes me think of Will Smith and his flashy thing. Sorry, my disbelief cannot be suspended that much.

- on a related note, don't borrow slang from 4chan too often. What you borrowed is dated when the book actually ships anyway.
sunnyside
I also kinda like how they do cyberware.

I know to most of the people who are on a cyberpunk message board it seems normal to lop off limbs and replace them with metal.

But my wife has assured me that if I do something like that in real life I can kiss sex goodbye.

I think of cyberware a bit like body peircings. Earings and datajacks are pretty well accepted. But the rest? Not so much if they're obvious.

Now there is the performance enhancing bit. But steroids enhance your performance now and those have a stigma.

What I do have a problem with are odd things that are broken on close inspection. Or at least should have been elaborated on so we know what they can't do.

This includes

-The movement power
-agent smith
-technomancers trying to get a bonus on absolutely everything they touch.

VagabondStar
A lot of the complaint seems to stem from whether you want the classic "80s future" or the newer 2070 vision which is more in keeping with the direction technology is heading. Personally, I'm a fan of the 80s vision of the future. I want my smartlink to be a giant metal tube that comes out of my wrist and screws into my ingram smartgun.


The most important thing, regardless of system change, license holding, etc. is that Shadowrun is still going in some form. You can always pick and choose whether you want to run in the 2070s or the 2050s. We are fortunate enough to have a more-or-less complete timeline of technology evolution over that 20 year period... and who says it has to be a "pure" setting. If you want your rigger to control swarms of death-drones in 2050 - who really cares? You want to play a technomancer in 2062... whatever.

Compromise is going to be about taking what we loved about the older editions of the game and integrating the best elements of what is new - and it looks like there are a LOT of good things about the new edition... coming from a guy who doesnt' actually own any of the new books, of course wobble.gif

but that's just my opinion, and my thoughts on the subject.


Now let's get back to the important stuff.... like trying to figure out how to make the "Burned Out Technomancer" archetype.
NightmareX
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 24 2008, 06:51 AM) *
I'd vote for "to much wi-fi" to be stricken from the list.


Perhaps "sane wi fi" would be a better description. Seriously, there is no reason for everything to have a device rating. Underwear do not need to be computerized? I can live with the lesser evils of hacking smartlinks and cyberware (there are ways around it).

QUOTE
Plus think about it. Seriously. You're probably typing that with a cell phone that can surf the web and make videos in your pocket, a bluetooth headset on hand or in your ear, two USB keys in your pocket, an IPOD with more songs on it than your parents had in their entire music collection, a calculator in your backpack with at least some infrared linkup capability and that can solve problems you'd have needed a room full of PhDs to handle 20 years ago, you may have a laptop to boot, and a digital wristwatch that you wish could figure out to update itself when you change time zones.


Desktop computer actually wink.gif I don't have any of that stuff.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Eugene @ Aug 24 2008, 07:31 AM) *
I don't think I miss the shadow slang. A lot of that stuff was originally used to avoid using real swears (because, you know, that's more threatening to our children than the fact that they're playing criminals). Now that swears are back in...


I know. I just think it's disingenuous to shift it back (retro) all of a sudden. It's not a major point though.

QUOTE
As far as cyberware being passe, I think that's fine too. "Count Zero" was written in 86 (re-reading it now) and a lot has changed since then. If we're not going to insist any more on the 80s "style", I think it's ok to re-evaluate the place of cyber. It's even fun to think of it as the consciously retro choice. And it's not like you don't have plenty of choices to zero out your essence using just cyber.


Again, it's not a major point. I should have delineated major gripes and minor gripes.

QUOTE
but he feels that the Matrix loses some of its cachet if AI becomes just another persona. I'm on the fence, myself.


I agree.

QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 24 2008, 08:37 AM) *
After a five-year lapse in the timeline and only two fluff sourcebooks out, it should come as no surprise that SR4 has a less detailed background than previous editions.


Thus it's easily fixable - put out books to cover the matter. I for one can wait. Our esteemed counterparts cannot, they need something to reassure them that they aren't waiting in vain.

QUOTE
I view cyber as something common on the streets......The view of cyber as outdated is something i apply to an elitist crowd of upper-class fashion victims.


Same here.

QUOTE
As far as wifi for everyday items is concerned, yes, it is damn common.
Having one remote for everything is temptingly convenient and Joe Blow on the street will use it.
He's not a security-conscious shadowrunner, he's a gullible and lazy person and prone to leave gaping holes in his matrix security.

And yes, there are people who have wifi-functional jackets.
Ruthenium polymer jackets with an atmospheric sensor and remotly regulable breather in the hood and whatnot.

But no one in my game loads down music into his jacket, unless it is one with an integrated comlink.


I agree totally here - this IMO is a sane approach to wifi. Underwear with a device rating on the other hand grinbig.gif

QUOTE
However, i think you are applying a too liberal interpretation of the Edge rules here.......The hand of god rule is applicable once per character in my game- not per Edge refreshment, not per campaign, per character.
It's a second chance, not a third or fourth or fifth.


Page 68, BBB
"Escape certain death. Th is use of Edge represents another
shot at life—something the spirits are rare to
provide. Th e streets have decided that they have more
uses for this character before she’s discarded to the
trash heap and miraculously pull her from the jaws
of Death. Gamemasters can explain this phenomena
with any rationale they like, from sheer coincidence to
the intervention of the gods. Note that the character is
not necessarily unharmed by the action; if shot in the
head, for example, she may be knocked into a coma
and appear dead to her enemies, but she will survive to
get revenge another day."

QUOTE
Note that the rules on hand of god say the same, except for that they replace "once per character" with GM fiat


For NPCs.

QUOTE
(the overuse of GM fiat, BTW, is something that really ticks me of about 4th.


Shall we add that to the list?

QUOTE
What bothers me is that IEs wheren't removed, but simply replaced by GDs.......
What i do mind, however, is the whole "GDs can't be killed by players, treat all of them as you pet NSC" bullshit.


This is a faux dilemma - GDs were always presented like this (save in the BBBs).
NightmareX
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 24 2008, 09:10 AM) *
First and foremost, don't do more damage than has already been done. Keep Tir na nOg much like it was - it propably won't have wifi all over anyway, being technophobic as it is), let it keep it's veil and seeolie court and basically be a setting for people who like mystical elf stuff. Also, have the NAN remain native-themed (except for Pueblo, which now apparently is a Horizon subsidiary).


It would be nice to have Tir na nOg a tiny tad more accessible, but definitely agreed.

QUOTE
And don't shove down AIs and all the other k3wl stuff every setting's throat. Have SR remain a system where there's something for everybody, not a setting essentially for Matrix fanboys.

Errata the new echos so that they're somewhere near balanced. Don't overstress their importance anymore;


Agreed.

QUOTE
What I'd like to see solved:

- More continuity with previous stuff. Maybe drop in familiar shadowtalkers, maybe you could leave some settings relatively unchanged, maybe also bring back old equipment (especially vehicles) ...

- don't go too far into transhumanism. AIs cannot just be accepted in SR, not after how they've been used before.

- TUNE DOWN HORIZON, it's gotten far, far too ridiculuos. And don't use the word media blitz anymore. It sounds stupid and makes me think of Will Smith and his flashy thing. Sorry, my disbelief cannot be suspended that much.


Agreed on all points (not as...adamant...about Horizon, but agreed). As for 4chan, you lost me - no clue what it is save for some anime/manga.

QUOTE (VagabondStar @ Aug 24 2008, 09:22 AM) *
A lot of the complaint seems to stem from whether you want the classic "80s future" or the newer 2070 vision which is more in keeping with the direction technology is heading.


I would like to see a middle ground between the two myself.

QUOTE
The most important thing, regardless of system change, license holding, etc. is that Shadowrun is still going in some form.


Definitely agreed.

QUOTE
Now let's get back to the important stuff.... like trying to figure out how to make the "Burned Out Technomancer" archetype.


That's the point of this exercise and thread - to bring some measure of peace to the divided between 3rd'ers and 4th'ers. Hopefully the writers and devs will take some inspiration from this as well, but that is beyond our control. All we can control is what plays out on these boards.
ElFenrir
Honestly, I think the Edge rule should stay as is. It's always easy to just say ''this is how it works'' at the table. it's wonderfully easy to tinker with: drop a harder hammer on Edge if you like gritty gameplay, treat as is for cinematic. Or somewhere in between. (We use as is. I guess I like cinematic gameplay. I don't want to have to worry about dying to a penny falling off the empire state building.) Of course, if said runner jumps into a vat of nuclear slime, then yeah, even in cinematic gameplay, you're dead. But I don't see why having it so it's nice and easy to shape depending on the campaign you want is a BAD thing.

Choice=Good. The more choices a game has=better, IMO, but I guess it's all subjective, as normal.

Of course, perhaps I misunderstood the thing on Edge. I always though it's easy enough to rule. I mean, why would there need to be another set of rules for it? (Unless it's just a collection of ''Other Ways to Use Edge'' and a listing of stuff from ''Uber-Gritty'' to ''Uber-Cinematic'', and everything in between. That could be cool.
NightmareX
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Aug 24 2008, 10:48 AM) *
Honestly, I think the Edge rule should stay as is. It's always easy to just say ''this is how it works'' at the table. it's wonderfully easy to tinker with: drop a harder hammer on Edge if you like gritty gameplay, treat as is for cinematic. Or somewhere in between. (We use as is. I guess I like cinematic gameplay. I don't want to have to worry about dying to a penny falling off the empire state building.) Of course, if said runner jumps into a vat of nuclear slime, then yeah, even in cinematic gameplay, you're dead. But I don't see why having it so it's nice and easy to shape depending on the campaign you want is a BAD thing.

Choice=Good. The more choices a game has=better, IMO, but I guess it's all subjective, as normal.

Of course, perhaps I misunderstood the thing on Edge. I always though it's easy enough to rule. I mean, why would there need to be another set of rules for it? (Unless it's just a collection of ''Other Ways to Use Edge'' and a listing of stuff from ''Uber-Gritty'' to ''Uber-Cinematic'', and everything in between. That could be cool.


That's precisely what I'm talking about. One of my non-negotiable points here is that all printed SR4 materials must remain viable (with the exception of setting material that can be altered in a logical fashion). To clarify by example - technos are here, they can't be hand waved out without ruining continuity. So they should IMO be clearly distinguished as non-magical and rule options/errata/clarifications should be made to solve their uberness.
Rasumichin
I completely agree on Hermit's notion of having diverse settings that appeal to many different playstiles.

As far as GDs are concerned, yeah, you're right, NightmareX.
They just seem to get much, much more spotlight since 3rd ed which, due to the whole Dunkie plotline, could very well be the edition with the most embarassing overuse of GDs.
I'd prefer to tune down the overall level of marysueishness instead of just shifting the focus from pointy ears to wizworms.
And i'd love to make them officially killable, but i don't think that's a key problem with 4th.
Ghostwalker, however...yuck.

The "less GM fiat, please" point can certainly go on the list, as far as i'm concerned.

On Edge : where does it say that the hand of god use only requires GM approval in case of NPCs?
@ ElFenrir : i didn't say that having flexible Edge rules is a bad thing, i just noted that due to these rules, it depends foremost on the group if it makes the game as easy as NightmareX stated in the OP.
sunnyside
By the way where is the device rating for underwear stuff coming from? Maybe an RFID in the tag, but a device rating?

Well. Ok. Some underwear probably has a device rating. If it has, say, temperature settings, or options for such things as "hide stiffy" or "puff to impress". You'd need wireless control for that. I could also see the use of smart materials for auto snugging. Or "comfort numbers" like that mattress you sometimes see adds for.

Also there already are some more high tech underpants.
http://zedomax.com/blog/2008/05/20/underwe...blood-pressure/

And lets not even get into bra options.

Also tied in there is the idea of technoshock. Which is supposed to be a cyberpunk staple.

After nearly 20 yeas for this game, cyberware just isn't shocking anymore.

So the next time your players pay their lifestyle costs you should inform them that the new game they bought comes with force feedback underpants, or that their new bra can be controlled from their comlink with settings of "sprinter" to "hippy freeswinging".


Also on that note I would definitly pay a premium for the condoms that send out a wireless alert if their structural integrity is compromised or if leaking out the back is detected. Though if the run just paid off I'm definitely paying for the wi-fi enabled delux models. Maybe give those to the guys with medium or higher lifestyle.

ElFenrir
I gotcha. Sorry if I seemed to react a bit ''gah! more nerfs!'' because I certainly did not intend to be that way.

I guess, being one of the more ''manga-esque'' folks, whenever i heard about ''turn it down'' often, I sort of get a reaction. (The way I GM is sort of...if I could say it's a cross between gritty and manga. There IS a lot of that grit around, but other things are more cinematic at the same time. If that makes sense. smile.gif )

I AM, however, ALL for a group of optional rules that give tips on tons of different playstyles. In fact, that's something I'd be totally into. Hell, i'd be willing to try to whip something together for a 'tips on playing a gritty yet cinematic sort of manga-esque kind of game''. grinbig.gif )
Rasumichin
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Aug 24 2008, 04:20 PM) *
I guess, being one of the more ''manga-esque'' folks, whenever i heard about ''turn it down'' often, I sort of get a reaction. (The way I GM is sort of...if I could say it's a cross between gritty and manga. There IS a lot of that grit around, but other things are more cinematic at the same time. If that makes sense. smile.gif )


Same here.
Or at least similar.
I love my game with flashy special FX, i want my jarheads and sprites and mechas and casters with extreme versions of shamanic mask and spells that look like something out of Final Fantasy, but at the same time, i prefer a rough and dangerous game where people get hurt. Badly.
psychophipps
I love the wi-fi, myself.
Just remember that anything important or mil-spec will probably not be wireless (at least not in the common-usage sense) for hopefully obvious reasons. Renraku will not be hooking up their super-mega mainframe to the nearest local wireless hub, my friends.
ElFenrir
Most of my grit is in the background, so to speak-and the storylines. Some of it can get mighty dark. As for danger level, I sort of abide by the ''play smart, and you'll do ok.'' I like there to be SOME danger, of course! But I really don't mind the Edge rule as it is...but I play with it. ''He could have never lived through that!'' Spend an edge point...well, you might not be in the same shape, you might have that artificial arm, or torso, or be a revamped version of the guy in Johnny Got his Gun(aka the Metallica ''One'' Video Guy), but you're alive to fight another day.

I don't, however, reward really dumb decisions.
hermit
QUOTE
You'd need wireless control for that.

Yes, because the notion of skinlinking underwear is absurd. Since when does it come close to one's skin?

QUOTE
Also tied in there is the idea of technoshock. Which is supposed to be a cyberpunk staple. (...) After nearly 20 yeas for this game, cyberware just isn't shocking anymore.

That's impossible today. It's not even truely shocking anymore IRL. Given how players are used to tech that's fairly close to what was considered technoshocking in the 80s (so much that Gibson stated he doesn't write scifi anymore since reality has caught up with his fiction), technoshock isn't really feasible anymore.

QUOTE
It would be nice to have Tir na nOg a tiny tad more accessible, but definitely agreed.

Actually, I kinda like the idea of nations that aren't open to everyone with a rating 2 fake SIN. Diversity, y'know?

QUOTE
As for 4chan, you lost me - no clue what it is save for some anime/manga.

You're kidding, right? Well, see for yourself. Sorry to have destroyed your life. It's the armpit of the internet.
Eugene
On the "wireless underwear" topic (sort of), I just finished reading Charles Stross' Halting State. In it there's a throwaway reference to RFID tags in clothing telling the washing machine what settings to use. So I guess you could "hack" it so that it might shrink the next time they wash it if you're into sophomoric pranks.
Not of this World
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 24 2008, 08:42 AM) *
I know. I just think it's disingenuous to shift it back (retro) all of a sudden. It's not a major point though.


It is absolutely disingenuous. Sorry, but if you're one of those aging sticks in the mud like me you expect Shadowrun to sound different and not just like and not like the Union manufacturers on break time.

Also, a lot of the "objectionable" content about Shadowrun doesn't occur in the rulebooks. Way back in high school the only reason a lot of my gaming group could play Shadowrun was that it wasn't D&D, didn't have demons in it, and we weren't swearing up a storm while staying in character (CP2020). A BIG part of why 5 of my long time Shadowrun players won't move to 4th edition is because they have kids and simply don't want them exposed to it too early. As an adult businessman I've always found in unprofessional to offend people you want to do business unnecessarily (there are necessary offenses and that is a large part of what I do for a living). Top of that list is making inappropriate jokes before knowing if they'll be offended or swearing in the presence of people before knowing if they'll be offended.

and like many of the changes in the 4th edition, why was this needed? It seems like the downsides were way bigger and more numerous than the upsides.


QUOTE
I agree totally here - this IMO is a sane approach to wifi. Underwear with a device rating on the other hand grinbig.gif


I have no problems with the concept of Wi-Fi and Augmented Reality. SR3 already had wi-fi to a believable degree in my opinion. Making EVERYTHING Wi-Fi is just ridiculous.

QUOTE
This is a faux dilemma - GDs were always presented like this (save in the BBBs).


Great Dragons were, but regular Dragons were not. Great Dragons like Immortal Elves, and Corporate Presidents should generally be close to untouchable. Regular Dragons on the other hand should be very tough, but also very killable if properly prepared and armed. 4th edition has made even regular dragons rather insane.
Not of this World
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 24 2008, 08:43 AM) *
It would be nice to have Tir na nOg a tiny tad more accessible, but definitely agreed.


TT and TnO should be more accessible in the sourcebook. But the "Iron curtains" should stay up as part of the atmosphere rather than the attempts to tear them down that were in SoNA. Poke holes in it big enough for Shadowrunners to crawl through, but enough to keep the barbarians out and use the Tirs as alien settings.

QUOTE
That's the point of this exercise and thread - to bring some measure of peace to the divided between 3rd'ers and 4th'ers. Hopefully the writers and devs will take some inspiration from this as well, but that is beyond our control. All we can control is what plays out on these boards.


Agreed. The "screw you" attitude is fine at the tabletop, but when you listen to it as a developer it means you start start diminishing your customer base.
sunnyside
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 24 2008, 12:39 PM) *
Yes, because the notion of skinlinking underwear is absurd. Since when does it come close to one's skin?


Well obviously if you're so inclined go skinlink crazy. This applies to a lot of things.

QUOTE
That's impossible today. It's not even truely shocking anymore IRL. Given how players are used to tech that's fairly close to what was considered technoshocking in the 80s (so much that Gibson stated he doesn't write scifi anymore since reality has caught up with his fiction), technoshock isn't really feasible anymore.


Well maybe for "shock" in terms of getting a OMGWTFBBQ response. Though I don't know how much cyberware did that even in the 80's.

But our chummer who started this thread apperantly wasn't down with high tech boxers. So maybe think less "shock" and more "surprise".

Still I think it adds a lot.

Not of this World
QUOTE (VagabondStar @ Aug 24 2008, 07:22 AM) *
A lot of the complaint seems to stem from whether you want the classic "80s future" or the newer 2070 vision which is more in keeping with the direction technology is heading. Personally, I'm a fan of the 80s vision of the future. I want my smartlink to be a giant metal tube that comes out of my wrist and screws into my ingram smartgun.


I believe that no roleplaying game can keep up with real world SOTA. With the 4 books a year they put out we've already been through 2 technological revolutions.

No the best way to do the future is to have a vision of what it will be like and stick to it (Star Wars, Star Trek, Buck Rogers), and then if you adapt it do so subtly and not with the bluntness of a punch to the face. I don't have a problem with the "Wi-Fi revolution" between 3rd and 4th edition but I do have a serious problem with the way in which it was done.
hermit
QUOTE
Well maybe for "shock" in terms of getting a OMGWTFBBQ response. Though I don't know how much cyberware did that even in the 80's.

A lot. It was Terminator-level fantasy. It was science fiction. Today's world is 30 years onwards. Technology has progressed pretty much the cyberpunk way. Cybernetic implants, for medical reasons, are already reality. DNI control of games and (presumably) vehicles is in beta.

I dunno really. I wouldn't want my boxers twisting my balls at any code kiddo's wrath.
sunnyside
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 24 2008, 03:33 PM) *
I dunno really. I wouldn't want my boxers twisting my balls at any code kiddo's wrath.


Well as you said, skinlink the things.

Though beyond that remember a hacker can't make a device do something it can't do. "Crush balls" is probably only an option on the S&M underpants.

Though toying the them a little could make for some interesting flirting. cyber.gif
Not of this World
Actually a good hack can and does push things beyond design intentions.

Consider the original stories which created the word hack:

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html
Cain
QUOTE
After a five-year lapse in the timeline and only two fluff sourcebooks out, it should come as no surprise that SR4 has a less detailed background than previous editions.

They still could have done better. Take a look at Runner Havens, for example. Demonseed Elite did a wonderful job with Hong Kong, but the Seattle section falls flat in comparison. If the whole book was done to the quality level shown in the Hong Kong section, we'd have an amazing fluff book.

QUOTE
As far as wifi for everyday items is concerned, yes, it is damn common.
Having one remote for everything is temptingly convenient and Joe Blow on the street will use it.

Not in five years, it's not. Excepting maybe my laptop (which was bought used), I don't think there's there's a single piece of household equipment in my place that's less than five years old. The concept that everyone suddenly has a wireless toaster in five years is not believable.
QUOTE
No the best way to do the future is to have a vision of what it will be like and stick to it (Star Wars, Star Trek, Buck Rogers), and then if you adapt it do so subtly and not with the bluntness of a punch to the face. I don't have a problem with the "Wi-Fi revolution" between 3rd and 4th edition but I do have a serious problem with the way in which it was done.

Agreed.

QUOTE
However, i think you are applying a too liberal interpretation of the Edge rules here.......The hand of god rule is applicable once per character in my game- not per Edge refreshment, not per campaign, per character.
It's a second chance, not a third or fourth or fifth.

The Edge rules have a lot of problems with them. Escape Certain Death is just one. You'd need to houserule a lot of the edge uses to curtail the abuse potential. For example, the Longshot rules need to be adjusted.

As far as TM's go, they need a serious overhaul. The concept is good; but they way it works right now, they're complete weaklings until and unless they earn enough karma to break the game.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 24 2008, 11:22 PM) *
They still could have done better. Take a look at Runner Havens, for example. Demonseed Elite did a wonderful job with Hong Kong, but the Seattle section falls flat in comparison. If the whole book was done to the quality level shown in the Hong Kong section, we'd have an amazing fluff book.


The comment wasn't on quality (i have already elaborated on that issue here or in one of the other 3rdVS4th bitchfests), but on the sheer quantity of published material.


QUOTE
Not in five years, it's not. Excepting maybe my laptop (which was bought used), I don't think there's there's a single piece of household equipment in my place that's less than five years old. The concept that everyone suddenly has a wireless toaster in five years is not believable.


Besides the point that believability is about the last consideration in SR and always was :
Yes, a longer pause would have been better.
A complete rehaul of the entire timeline, with no connections to previously existing continuity, even more so.
In my opinion.

However, i can already hear the people bitching about their oh-so-precious SR3 character having to wait for 15 years before they can convert him or the plotwankers moaning about the end of their favourite means of jackoff, so it's no surprise that we got a compromise, with all the halfassednes that entails.
Damn, i'd hate putting out a product for a bunch of nerds.





QUOTE
The Edge rules have a lot of problems with them. Escape Certain Death is just one. You'd need to houserule a lot of the edge uses to curtail the abuse potential. For example, the Longshot rules need to be adjusted.


As i said, it isn't a problem if you make clear how you'll handle Escape Certain Death and if you handle it the way i do -which is the way the BBB recommends it, only worded more carebeary and handwavey- it does work out fine.

Problems will only arise if your players are unsure about how you use it and start whining because they thought their PCs get 5 extra lives.

As far as Longshot is concerned, it might need some tweaking, yes.

QUOTE
As far as TM's go, they need a serious overhaul. The concept is good; but they way it works right now, they're complete weaklings until and unless they earn enough karma to break the game.


Agreed more or less.
Jackstand
QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 24 2008, 04:01 PM) *
Actually a good hack can and does push things beyond design intentions.


The intention of a design and the capabilities of a design are not the same thing, though. No matter how many successes you get on a hacking test against a computerized waffle iron, it'll never make you a margarita. You could change the software so that it could, theoretically, do it, but the hardware simply can't do it.
sunnyside
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 24 2008, 06:22 PM) *
Not in five years, it's not. Excepting maybe my laptop (which was bought used), I don't think there's there's a single piece of household equipment in my place that's less than five years old. The concept that everyone suddenly has a wireless toaster in five years is not believable.


What's less believable is that technology would have backslid from today.

Also the rapid upgrade makes a lot of sense. Cyberdecks were crazy expensive. If the new comlinks were more powerful AND orders of magnetude cheaper, AND wireless I see adaptation as being very rapid.

Though the proliferation of old comlinks does seem a bit of a retcon. But one I'll forgive them.


QUOTE
As far as TM's go, they need a serious overhaul. The concept is good; but they way it works right now, they're complete weaklings until and unless they earn enough karma to break the game.


I do agree there. You know what I really wish they had done was a developers segment. WH40K does that occasionally. They'll just lay out what they're trying to achieve with something. It can do a lot to mollify the player base. Where we might be complianing "they made XYZ too powerful! Why wouldn't you use it!" we can instead chill if they just write out something like "XYZ is supposed to be the new main weapon of the army, the best by default, with the other options being for special circumstances."

Did the designers mean for TMs to be able to break any system? Did they mean for a TM drone to be deadlier than the Sammy? Are TMs suppose to get a huge bonus to using anything with a micropocessor stuck anywhere in it?

Maybe they are.
Cain
QUOTE
What's less believable is that technology would have backslid from today.

Also the rapid upgrade makes a lot of sense. Cyberdecks were crazy expensive. If the new comlinks were more powerful AND orders of magnetude cheaper, AND wireless I see adaptation as being very rapid.

Though the proliferation of old comlinks does seem a bit of a retcon. But one I'll forgive them.

Oh, come on now. Some famous sci-fi settings have many items that are actually a step back from what we have now. Traveller is one; you should look at some of the computer rules. Star Wars is another. RIFTS is just gonzo crazy with some of the things it's got running through it. The new Battlestar Galatica doesn't suffer from the lack of wirelessly-networked computers, or wireless services for that matter.

Commlinks themselves aren't a problem. It's that everyone now has wireless Talkie Toasters in their kitchen, and are wearing wireless underoos.
kzt
Yes, having the developer/writers saying what the objective of parts of the rules is often very useful. Whether that's in the rule book itself or on the web site doesn't matter. Even getting something like "bloodzilla is just bad, don't do it or let players do it" would help. The incredible slowness in getting errata and FAQs up doesn't help. Was printing and editing really perfect in Augmentation?
Not of this World
Getting the thread back on topic and updating the list with prior constructive comments.

Things that can be easily solved
* Lack of clarification/information on the world setting (which includes NAN and Tir treatment)
* Lack of shadowslang
* Cyberware as passe (not acceptable - this is a cyberpunk game)
* Great Dragons getting too much spotlight and too many power plays

Things that can kinda be solved
* WiFi inanity (to put it succinctly, why is there a computer in everything including my underwear? Why can the hacker take control of my cyberarm, and why does my non-smartlinked gun have a computer that can shut it down in it?)
* Vehicle integration (it would help - we don't even use Maneuver score)
* Edge (in that to kill anyone you essentially have to kill them a number of times equal to their edge score)

Things that can't easily be solved
* Technomancers (in the manner that they essentially are magical by the powers and fluff, and in the sense that they are somewhat overpowered)
* AI proliferation (why is every frikkin program waking up as an AI?)
* Dead plotlines
* Dead NPCs/institutions (ie Shadowland)
* Too much GM fiat (Rules exist to deny arbitrary whims)
* Too much simplifcation of the magic system (More functional difference between emotion/tradition based traditions and intellect based traditions)


Additions are in italics.
I added the magic one add the end myself. It is a big deal to me and seemingly some 4th edition fans as well that ditching many of the 101 variations of magic were fine but people still want that core Mage Vs. Shaman from SR1 to be strongly pronounced.

We got two threads essentially current right now for complaints, lets try to keep at least one constructive for solutions that aren't aimed at offending a majority of fans.
sunnyside
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 25 2008, 12:22 AM) *
Oh, come on now. Some famous sci-fi settings have many items that are actually a step back from what we have now. Traveller is one; you should look at some of the computer rules. Star Wars is another. RIFTS is just gonzo crazy with some of the things it's got running through it. The new Battlestar Galatica doesn't suffer from the lack of wirelessly-networked computers, or wireless services for that matter.

Commlinks themselves aren't a problem. It's that everyone now has wireless Talkie Toasters in their kitchen, and are wearing wireless underoos.



Ok to be fair many settings do have a step back involved. Though honestly as often as not I think it's because they don't want to bother with all of that. Adding that detail takes extra time and money. Sometimes there is a reason for it (Battletech comes to mind) and sometimes there isn't.

I guess could you elaborate on why you think wireless talkie toasters and underoos with dynamic fit and temperature controls are a problem.

They are certainly doable with SR4 level technoloy, and people would certainly buy them if they were availible. Hence they would be made. They are part of SR4s vision of the future and this aspect comes off as self consistant and fun to boot.

And I consider this discussion on topic. I disagree with the wireless stuff being a problem.

And like kzt I think developer notes could possibly resolve a third of those.

hobgoblin
it seems to me that the people here thats going wifi-phobic are the ones that read any device rating as a comlink-in-a-can...

or in other words, as the only type of computer described in the BBB is a comlink, with the other interpretations left to gm fiat (and gm fiat is bad, mkay!) then anything with a device rating is a comlink...

talk about holy-book-reader level of jumps in logic.

hell, i would go as far as saying it matches what a certain oots paladin was shown capable of...

but then i guess people think rule 0 is the sign of the devil as well so...
Heath Robinson
As we're all laying out our major gripes, I figure I ought to mention the RFID stupidity. It's partly a subset of the wireless aspects. Partly it's a stupidity all of its own.

Let me grab some quotes.
QUOTE (Hard Exit, page 26, Unwired)
Another trick for law enforcement (or the corps) is to spray out a RFID tag “mist? that blankets a crowd with microscopic tags, enabling them to track protestors, rioters, vandals, etc. even after the fact. Some corps use this as a passive measure to track criminals who break into a facility.


QUOTE (NetCat, Page 25, Unwired)
RFID tags can be placed in anything. Yes, anything. That includes the gooey bar you ate for lunch and the soy-kaf you guzzled down. You are what you eat … .


RFID response ranges are a function of antenna size (effectively tag size, since the chips that control them are small enough to be insignificant in comparison). A microscopic tag will have a range measured in millimetres (really great for tracking people!). Current medical implant RFIDs are the size of a grain of rice and have a range measured in inches.

Interposing material has a double impact on passive RFIDs because they "reflect" (I'm not sure if this is a technical term) the signal and thus get any absorbtion applied twice to the same signal. Any potential RFIDs in your stomach would have to be small enough (to escape being crushed betwixt your mighty teeth, see?) that they are undetectable at any reasonable range outside your body. Sure, if you let the guard press his tag reader up to your skin he'd get a good read, but you have a hell of a lot more problems if that happens.

RFIDs being so prevalent and difficult to spot turns wiping down your goods for tags into an assumed action for any sensible runner, as it doesn't matter if you spot any RFIDs (and thus, you don't bother to look for RFIDs and assume they're there). RFIDs being in everything becomes a background detail that occasionally ends up compounding the problems of communication failures between GMs and Players.
BullZeye
I first thought not to comment but now after reading the thread, thought to give my opinion. Btw, I never did play the 3rd ed of SR...

Wireless... When you look at shops nowadays, there's an RFID tag in just about everything more expensive, just under the prize tag. It doesn't mean that you got a computer in your underpants, just that it has a tiny transmitter that can give out something if asked for, like prize, size, washing program or whatever. In 5 years not every item will have wireless link, but how about 60 years? What's more handy than your alarm clock tells the home central computer that the person did press the button down. Then the bed tells now he's up and thus opens the toilet door. After the business is done in toilet, autoflush cleans the stuff and meanwhile coffeemaker and toaster have started to heat up your breakfast. Most likely you CAN still buy non-wireless stuff on year 2070 but why would you when you can just let the machines communicate with each others and make your life as easy as possible. RFID tags are usually read-only without physical contact anyway. And the worst hack you can do to a cloth-RFID is something like mess up the wash program to make your 20.000 buck shirt shrink to barbie clothing wink.gif

On the shadowslang, I wonder why it isn't then usable anymore? If you know some posh curses from previous versions, what's the problem in using them in other versions? If the problem is that you don't want to curse in front of kids or something alike, curse in another language that exists if the new version didn't provide you with vocabulary and then again, why do you need to curse on a game anyway? If your character has to curse, then curse. Regardless of the word spoken, the meaning or image of the word still has the same meaning you intend to it. Some languages have more powerful sounding curse words than others and then there's of course the F-word. If you want to curse in front of the kids and have curses that have balls, use Finnish curses, perkele wobble.gif (translation to that is: the devil)

I think lot of the issues were covered on another thread about the new version culture or something alike that. Stuff change so either live with it, adapt to it or change what you don't like but complaining about it doesn't do anything. We'd be still living in the stone age if people weren't able to change... I've yet to find the perfect system for RPG, but SR4 is quite close to it. Those who make the games do listen to people but in the end, there can be only some ideas that will be brought to the game and some will be left out. And what's more grand for a GM that you can decide YOURSELF what major stuff happens in your hosted world?

"Hm... Upgrades" - Neo
Blade
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 25 2008, 12:22 AM) *
Not in five years, it's not. Excepting maybe my laptop (which was bought used), I don't think there's there's a single piece of household equipment in my place that's less than five years old. The concept that everyone suddenly has a wireless toaster in five years is not believable.


First drones were already wireless and a toaster can be considered as one. And actually wireless matrix was already in SR3. It just wasn't good enough for decking and as nobody bothered with the Matrix outside decking, nobody bothered to think about the common uses of wireless Matrix.

Second, even if that toaster wasn't wireless, it certainly had a wired Matrix connection. It's already in the SSG, where it says that nearly every piece of equipment in your house comes with spyware. So it's just a matter of plugging a wireless adaptator in the jack port. Of course, some people won't do it and will leave their toaster wired to the house's dataterm which will be the gateway to the Matrix (wirelessly or wired) but in the end, the toaster will still be accessible from a wireless connection.
hobgoblin
the number of people that do not for some reason or other set a password or encrypt their home wifi is downright silly, but its convenient that way for someone thats not interesting in more then being able to access the bank website from anywhere in the home.

hell, home many check the certificate on a encrypted web page, or even know how to read one of those?
sunnyside
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 25 2008, 02:46 AM) *
it seems to me that the people here thats going wifi-phobic are the ones that read any device rating as a comlink-in-a-can...

or in other words, as the only type of computer described in the BBB is a comlink, with the other interpretations left to gm fiat (and gm fiat is bad, mkay!) then anything with a device rating is a comlink...

talk about holy-book-reader level of jumps in logic.

hell, i would go as far as saying it matches what a certain oots paladin was shown capable of...

but then i guess people think rule 0 is the sign of the devil as well so...



Actually yeah sometimes I see that. Why even bother getting a comlink when you can get a device with the same ratings that's cheaper? Or why get an internal comlink when any piece of deltaware could act as a rating 6 comlink?

I don't consider many of the device rating type systems to be capable of acting like a true comlink. That is in terms of running the comlink programs.

But I do like the device rating idea. It makes life easy and allows hacking to follow a similar metaphor.
Cardul
To the people talking about technomancers? Neither I, nor my GM see the need for a complete overhaul of them.
My GM has told us all, right at the start, how she saw technomancers, and how she interpreted the upgraded rules from unwired. We have found these to be fairly well balanced and fit into things fairly well.

1) Ray Bradbury has a quote that "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinquishable from magic." A corrollary to that, not from Bradbury, is "Sufficiently understood magic is indistinquishable from technology." Sure, Shadowrun and Cyberpunk have all sorts of explanations for why the Matrix, or what have you, works. But, my GM points out that one of the great confusing things is: The original Crash Virus. It had to be taken down by Echo Mirage, using brand new technology, technology that did not exist before that virus, and yet, the Virus not only was able to fight the Echo Mirage team, but was able to KILL them. And, no-one has EVER traced the origin of the Crash Virus. However, it was used to reverse engineer Black IC. Black IC prevents you from jacking out, requiring you to make a WILLPOWER roll to Jack Out. Willpower is what you resist many forms of Magic with. So, the Matrix IS some sort of magical realm, just one that can be accessed with technology, because it is sufficiently understood.(I know I am missing alot of my GMs logic on this..she spent a good hour explaining the logic...)

2) The section about being able to buy more Echoes after your first submersion in Unwired? It is a Side Bar, so, thus, is optional. My GM does not allow that.

3) My GM DOES use the one tweak for technomancers of allowing them to buy complex forms for 3 points each, and do them like spells. She handles the fading more like this: The Technomancer needs to choose which rated forms he is going to use upon going into the Matrix. He must then roll fading for each one at the rating he is using it at, and cannot recover stun damage while in the Matrix. Threading is still a non-action, but you a) suffer fading each time your thread, b) you cannot increase the rating of an already threaded Complex form, and c) if the Fading would increase the rating above your resonance, you suffer the fading physically.

4) Non-rated Complex forms are always active, even if not always in use.

5) Technomancers cannot turn off their AR senses, and they have ALL senses relating to AR. She imposes distraction penalties in extremely heavy AR zones, and, other wise, gives the Technomancer problems from things in AR..after all, a technomancer can get majorly overloaded by a SPAM attack, especially during the period our game is in, when Technomancers are not outed yet, and so carry around a Commlink just for show...
hermit
QUOTE
Actually yeah sometimes I see that. Why even bother getting a comlink when you can get a device with the same ratings that's cheaper? Or why get an internal comlink when any piece of deltaware could act as a rating 6 comlink?

Thanks to clustering rules, it is a feasible possibility.

QUOTE
I don't consider many of the device rating type systems to be capable of acting like a true comlink. That is in terms of running the comlink programs.

You may not. Unwired and it's clustering rules do.

@Cardul: Your GM already changed most core functions of the mancer, except for sprites.

QUOTE
And, no-one has EVER traced the origin of the Crash Virus.

One of the novels has. I think it was Psychotrope or the Lucifer Deck. IIRC it was an AI thing. German books also blamed the Swiss, for whatever reason.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 25 2008, 08:31 AM) *
Things that can't easily be solved
* Technomancers (in the manner that they essentially are magical by the powers and fluff, and in the sense that they are somewhat overpowered)
* AI proliferation (why is every frikkin program waking up as an AI?)
* Dead plotlines
* Dead NPCs/institutions (ie Shadowland)
* Too much GM fiat (Rules exist to deny arbitrary whims)
* Too much simplifcation of the magic system (More functional difference between emotion/tradition based traditions and intellect based traditions)


AI proliferation can be easily solved by toning down their number to a number you feel comfortable with. Replace with Security hacker, or ICE or agent when needed for a plot.

Dead plotlines and NPCs can be easily saved/solved/continued by the GMs themselves. It's not really difficult, it just takes a bit of creativity - which a GM has in spades. As I said, I run in 2050something, and I added the wireless matrix as a retcon (as in "Was always like this for decades"), no problem. It's also not much of a problem replacing corps you like/dislike, or NPCs, or even country changes.

Don't want Tir changed? Don't do it. As strange as it may seem to some the SR4 world fluff doesn't need to be followed slavishly, it'll work with the old Tir, the new Tir, and even without any Tir.

Too much GM fiat: That's a straw man. If you do not trust your GM, then no amount of rules will save you, since he can always cheat.

Magic systems can use fluff to make them distinctive.
sunnyside
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 25 2008, 05:21 AM) *
You may not. Unwired and it's clustering rules do.


You know what. I'm increasingly thinking that's the one sourcebook I'll forever be happier not owning...

Fine add that to the list mechanical issues SR4 has.

Which, I think would make for a good second list.


hobgoblin
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Aug 25 2008, 11:51 AM) *
You know what. I'm increasingly thinking that's the one sourcebook I'll forever be happier not owning...

Fine add that to the list mechanical issues SR4 has.

Which, I think would make for a good second list.


the clustering rules are not that bad. and its not a automatic feature, similar to how today a network of computers do not a cluster make.

all you really get out of the rule is a way to build a nexi out of comlinks, or maybe a a comlink out of a pile of rfids (a very insecure comlink at that).

still, it would have been nice if they sidebared it rather then make it part of the main text.

oh, and unwired made slaving a documented rule.

want to make it hard on that pest of a kid to hack your underware? slave it to your comlink and have the comlink pack a nasty surprise wink.gif
hermit
QUOTE
the clustering rules are not that bad. and its not a automatic feature, similar to how today a network of computers do not a cluster make.

The way it's worded, it is, since you don't have to buy special clustering-enabled stuff, according to the book. The PAN's components aren't networked by default, but that's only a matter of admin access and an extended computer test.

QUOTE
all you really get out of the rule is a way to build a nexi out of comlinks, or maybe a a comlink out of a pile of rfids (a very insecure comlink at that).

Judging by the crap stats staple commlinks in the BBB have, it'll be not half bad.

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want to make it hard on that pest of a kid to hack your underware? slave it to your comlink and have the comlink pack a nasty surprise

Spoof = instant win.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 25 2008, 12:20 PM) *
The way it's worded, it is, since you don't have to buy special clustering-enabled stuff, according to the book. The PAN's components aren't networked by default, but that's only a matter of admin access and an extended computer test.


and one can turn linux boxes into a cluster by installing some software.
so the problem is what exactly?

QUOTE
Judging by the crap stats staple commlinks in the BBB have, it'll be not half bad.


heh, who use a stock comlink anyways? wink.gif
oh right, building ones own computer is a geek thing. i keep forgetting...

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Spoof = instant win.


yep, just make sure to get within that 3 meter range wink.gif
hermit
QUOTE
and one can turn linux boxes into a cluster by installing some software.
so the problem is what exactly?

In SR4, it's a standard Windows feature.

QUOTE
heh, who use a stock comlink anyways? wink.gif
oh right, building ones own computer is a geek thing. i keep forgetting...

Yup. smile.gif

QUOTE
yep, just make sure to get within that 3 meter range

Hack any device close to the character, on the fly. If you have a decent commlink, the device has no chance in hell against that.
Voran
Some of my thoughts:

The Cyberpunk element has always been skewed a bit with the inclusion of 'elves and magic'. To be fair, the idea of 'cyber being passe' isn't too foreign. I liked Deus Ex for this example, the original operatives were cybered, with the Dentons representing the 'new' approach of nano-augmentation. In its own timeframe, SR is heading that way too. Heck your 'augmented' characters are looking more and more like Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda's Nietzscheans, gene modded augments with nano enhancements.

I can see the progression in either sense. Why chop perfectly good portions of your body off when you can achieve the same effect with bioware and nanotech?


I'm not so miffed at the wi-fi bombardment. Though as a Player the idea that now you may (depending on how big a bastard your GM is being) having to burn game-time figuring out how much you need to protect yourself from getting hacked or mandatory fake-ids now, can be problematic. I liked the previous version where you could stay under the radar just by skill and common sense, but now you need to run around with a fake id, in full broadcast mode more often than not, to be able to 'hide'.

Its less about being under the radar than having 'radar stealthing equipment' (in a sense) nowadays.

Tir Treatment. Not sure about that. I saw the collapse coming, I'm sure we all did. The previous sourcebooks that showed Tir showed a society that tried to put on a show of being superior and perfect and prosperous, while its underbelly was getting poorer and angrier. I don't really see a problem with the people overthrowing the Council, since it makes sense of one assumes the Council didn't really care about maintaining power in Tir, if it was able to maintain power in some other fashion. I'd think in some cases the Princes would have welcomed not having to deal with the TIr issues anymore.

My primary issue with SR (If I ever had one) was that while not implied in its presentation, in reality of the game, magic still comes across as the 'trump-all' measure. We've discussed it for years here on the forums, on the disconnect between the idea of magic being special and rare, and the 'reality' where magic is the new nuclear arms race. In game effect, not having a mage type in your runner team is pretty much suicide.
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