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Rasumichin
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Aug 26 2008, 03:26 AM) *
Rasumi,
Why include Native American Shamanism as a tradition, then? It, too, is a religion. (Did you forget?)


No, i didn't, but note that shamanism is a religion that has magical practises at its very core.
When every priest is essentially a would-be spellcaster in a belief system, it makes sense to make them a core magical tradition, especially as SR1 was very strongly based upon the conflict between the NAN and the remainder of the USA.

Similarly, it made sense that location sourcebooks for places such as the UK and Germany came up with local colour replacements for shamanism in the form of druidism and witchcraft (once again, believe systems with a very strong connection to magic).



QUOTE
Furthermore, religion would define the way in which a lot of people interpret the existance and use of magic (just like the Native American shamans interpret magic in terms of their mentor spirits), providing quick tradition definitions for them and a bit of flavour text validates the choice to play a religious mage that doesn't practice hermeticism or the pet religion of SR.

The real question is why it took until SR4 to include some of the most important perception defining forces in the world in an element of Shadowrun that claims that it is based on the beliefs and perceptions of the character using it. It's almost like you despise the fact that SR4 makes an attempt to incorporate more character choice.


No, i certainly don't.
In fact, i'm fine with SR4 offering more character choices.
They are not always the choices i've been waiting for all the time, but in general, i don't mind that the religious traditions are there.
Some of them, like Quabalist magic and Christian theurgy, are excellent writeups within the limited space SM offers each tradition.

It's just that i wish there would be more completely secular, scientific traditions besides hermeticism, chaos magic and wuxia and that i would love to see more ideas to flesh out all the presented traditions and would be looking forward to future supplements dealing with those issues.

I agree on the notion brought up here that canon fluff can be confining, but that can be worked around if you manage to portray the different aspects, the conflicting subsets of various traditions.
It would be easily imaginable that one can fill an entire chapter with various research approaches to hermetic magical theory alone.


QUOTE
Smeg isn't a made up word. Smeg is a shortened form of "smegma", a term referred to dried up semen found beneath the foreskin


Actually, smegma is not made up of dried up semen, but is a secretion by glands under the foreskin, to a lesser extend on the tip of the penis and also within the vagina, which also makes the slang term dick cheese, or its German equivalent Eichelkäse, kinda incorrect.
Wesley Street
And I just threw up in my mouth.
tete
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 26 2008, 04:46 PM) *
Maybe in SR4 you do. RF is really good at getting around obstacles.


True but usually its pretty easy to make any signal worthless. Metal Warehouses for example, signal is everywhere but you can't get any real data off of it.

Also I really hope that they don't say anywhere that a backbone is wireless because it will never happen. In the words of the FBI representative at Black Hat 05' "as long as you beam encryption out, it will be broken", after the 8min crack of WPA2.
Cain
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 26 2008, 02:43 AM) *
If you liked playing an voodoo character for the fluff and not for the special rules you get to use while playing one, you should have no problems playing the same character is SR4, it's not like all the cool fluff reasons to play one just disapeart becouse voodoo doesn't get special treatment anymore.

If I was new to Shadowrun, I'd certainly have a hard time seeing voodoo as anything other than one choice among many. Street Magic just mentions the role loas have in the tradition; you would have no idea about how important the choice of a patron loa is to a character. You certainly can't give a character the same depth using only the SR4 books; you'd need to do a lot of research on real-world voodoo in order to get the details you need. They used to name and describe the major loas, as well as giving stats on having one as a totem. They could have accomplished the same thing by saying "Ezrulie works just like the Seductress mentor spirit"; but they didn't. It's much harder to get a good view of voudoun in Shadowrun with the scanty details we're given.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 26 2008, 09:45 PM) *
They could have accomplished the same thing by saying "Ezrulie works just like the Seductress mentor spirit"; but they didn't.


Actually they did just that.
At the end of Street Magic, there are several pantheons with matching mentor spirits.
It's very brief, actually just gives a tiny overview and drops names and correspondences, but it is there.

In general, though, i think it was a good idea to get rid of the countles totems and idols from previous editions.
I don't miss all the miniscule crunch differences or the tendency to have modifiers that where not really comparable to each other.
Not of this World
I wasn't a fan of overly complicated magic rules in SR3 so I just houseruled that people couldn't generally take any strange traditions like voodoo, idols, or exotic (non-animal) totems without prior approval. I never saw it as a problem as I just saw those as "Optional" rules that I did without the option of.

I think it simply went too far by making everything "Universal Magic Theory" so that you all conjure the same and all of magic can be boiled down to some theory (Theories are Hermetical). That is taking away the whole original flavor of Shadowrun to me going way back to first edition. Obviously other players don't care or otherwise just aren't bothered by it (or home rule it back to the way it was).
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 26 2008, 11:14 PM) *
I think it simply went too far by making everything "Universal Magic Theory" so that you all conjure the same and all of magic can be boiled down to some theory (Theories are Hermetical). That is taking away the whole original flavor of Shadowrun to me going way back to first edition. Obviously other players don't care or otherwise just aren't bothered by it (or home rule it back to the way it was).


As i said, flavour is not dependant on mechanical asymetries, but description.

Plus, theories aren't hermetical per se.
Most established traditions will have theories.
Even if you use theory synonymous with "hard science, almost mathematic approach to magic", which is just wrong, as theory also encompasses philosophic approaches and therefore also traditions such as Catholic theurgy or Gardner Wicca, hermetics aren't a singularity.
Hermetics might be the most obvious example, but wuxia, Quabala, English druidism and chaos magic all are described as having solid theoretical groundworks, and as far as alchemy is concerned, you might count Islamic magic in, too.

On top of that, non-hermetic traditions have made their way into academic institutions since the days of SR1, meaning that we have had shamanist theorists since back then as well.
Remember, the Magical Theory skill in SR1 and 2 was never restricted to hermetics.

Fact is : spellcasting has always been the same to all traditions, implying that there not only is a unified principle behind magic, but that this fact is integral to how magic was rendered in SR since day one.
It was -at least since second, probably since first edition- explicitly stated that the differences between a mage and a shaman casting a spell where merely cosmetic.

Why should it be such a big problem that all of a sudden, other aspects work the same, too?

When we -again, since SR1!- have been used to the fact that traditions such as druidism and witchcraft (as integral to the UK and AGS settings as shamanism is to North America and therefore as much original SR to me as shamanism is to you) where nothing but an already existing tradition -shamanism- with different totems, why should we insist on every tradition being so damn special?

Using the same set of mechanics for several traditions was, at the very beginning of SR, the norm, not the exception.
It wasn't one for all, but instead one for hermetics and one for the rest, but it already transported the idea that traditions where permeable.

Later, with voudoun, we had a single case of a tradition that was as different from shamanism as from hermeticism (which was mostly confusing to apply) and even later on a bunch of traditions that took an existing rulesset and made an awkward attempt to modify it, which was neither usable nor distinctive, but just an example of bad game design.

SR3 magic was a symptom of a system moving into a dead end street because it had expanded to a point that had never been intended by the original rules.
Good riddance.
GreyBrother
Not of this World: There is no such a thing as a "Unified Magic Theory" besides as a subgroup of hermetic thaumaturgy. It is only fluff for hermetics.
Synner667
QUOTE (Cardul @ Aug 25 2008, 09:26 AM) *
1) Ray Bradbury has a quote that "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinquishable from magic."

Erm...
...That quote is famously attributed to Arthur C Clarke, not Ray Bradbury.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 27 2008, 12:28 AM) *
Not of this World: There is no such a thing as a "Unified Magic Theory" besides as a subgroup of hermetic thaumaturgy. It is only fluff for hermetics.


Yeah, they somehow have to come up with a reasoning why their precious assumptions about magic didn't work out, a desperate attempt to hide the gaping holes in the supposedly hyperlogical framework they have build up.
For such a rational tradition, it is hard to admit that they're wrong.
Wait till they find out they where completely wrong on spirits just being magical automatons...
Synner667
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 26 2008, 06:09 AM) *
I'm aware of the origins of the word. But as Not of this World pointed out, it's become part of Red Dwarf, so much that just by saying the word in the right circles, people can instantly tell you're a fan. If it suddenly disappeared, one of the colorful parts of the series would be lost.

The same thing has happened with the new Battlestar Galatica and the word "frack". It may have started as a swear-word substitute; but now, it's taken root, and is popular among the fanbase. It's become part of the color of the world, and will remain so.

From what I know of RD...
...Smeg was done on purpose, to give fans something to hook onto, a way to share their "fan-ness" [alost like viral marketing].

Wasn't "frack" the shit or fuck substitute from CP2020 ??
Cain
QUOTE
As i said, flavour is not dependant on mechanical asymetries, but description.

Yes, and that description is very light. Voodoo, Shamanism, and Hermeticism all receive much less description than before.
QUOTE
Fact is : spellcasting has always been the same to all traditions, implying that there not only is a unified principle behind magic, but that this fact is integral to how magic was rendered in SR since day one.

Except for the Shamanic mask. That still exists in SR4, but is ill-defined.

Basically, the problem here isn't the fact that they unified the magic system. I actually like the concept. What I dislike is the fact that it came at the expense of flavor. There's far, far more coverage on rules than there is on traditions; and what we do have on traditions is pretty thin. So, when he says the new rules "lack flavor", he means that they are noticeably short on description.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 26 2008, 08:16 PM) *
No, i didn't, but note that shamanism is a religion that has magical practises at its very core.
When every priest is essentially a would-be spellcaster in a belief system, it makes sense to make them a core magical tradition, especially as SR1 was very strongly based upon the conflict between the NAN and the remainder of the USA.

Similarly, it made sense that location sourcebooks for places such as the UK and Germany came up with local colour replacements for shamanism in the form of druidism and witchcraft (once again, believe systems with a very strong connection to magic).


No, i certainly don't.
In fact, i'm fine with SR4 offering more character choices.
They are not always the choices i've been waiting for all the time, but in general, i don't mind that the religious traditions are there.
Some of them, like Quabalist magic and Christian theurgy, are excellent writeups within the limited space SM offers each tradition.

It's just that i wish there would be more completely secular, scientific traditions besides hermeticism, chaos magic and wuxia and that i would love to see more ideas to flesh out all the presented traditions and would be looking forward to future supplements dealing with those issues.


I agree on the notion brought up here that canon fluff can be confining, but that can be worked around if you manage to portray the different aspects, the conflicting subsets of various traditions.
It would be easily imaginable that one can fill an entire chapter with various research approaches to hermetic magical theory alone.

Whatever you can achieve by calling on the spirits of nature, you can achieve by calling on the Christian god, the Hindu gods, the kami, etc. The power attributed to prayer has similar scope and nature to that attributed to the magical works of the Shaman.


The primary market for SR is America, a land where religion has always held a lot of sway. The place that the purely philosphical systems hold in the setting is, however, strengthened by the fact that they are beholden to no master or morality in particular. More Hermetics and Chaos Mages will find themselves with steady, gainful employ because they do not have to embody any archetype or morality as a crutch for their magic.

We should expect to see more homogeneity in the purely philosophical traditions because corps will standardise their teachings in order to produce interchangable wagemages, and to increase the return on investments in wagemage fringe benefits. Academics will prefer purely philosophical traditions as well, as academia tries to divorce itself of religious leanings.


No matter how much variety you incorporate into your hypothetical deeper writeups, it will still restrict the perceived range of options. There is always one more option that has yet to be considered that is still compatible with a belief or philophical system. Always. Paradox has been nigh-on embraced by some religious sects, as well.

I also feel the duplicating information that is freely available elsewhere is unneeded. Whilst it might inspire incidental learning, Shadowrun does not exist to educate people about the occult and any attempt made by CGL to educate its player base on the components traditions would only be insufficient compared to the many fine textbooks that already exist.
Cain
QUOTE
I also feel the duplicating information that is freely available elsewhere is unneeded. Whilst it might inspire incidental learning, Shadowrun does not exist to educate people about the occult and any attempt made by CGL to educate its player base on the components traditions would only be insufficient compared to the many fine textbooks that already exist.

Oh, please. Sure, no matter how much detail you go into a tradition, there's always more. But that shouldn't prevent you from providing at least a decent overview of the subject, especially if the tradition plays an important role in the game. One goal of the books is to inspire character ideas. If you're not making your fluff interesting enough, you're not going to do well on that score.
hobgoblin
so what you want, cain, is one street magic pr tradition presented in street magic?

i have a hard enough time getting people to look at the basic rules and setting material beyond character generation. getting a magic user to read a whole book about his chosen (most likely in the style of "hey cool, ninjas/zombies/whatever!") tradition would be near futile...

sure, maybe i should find someone else to play with, but sadly, around these parts the choice is limited...
Ryu
While I personally hold Awakenings in high regard for it´s fluff, I must say that Street Magic has gotten more colour into our games.

The crunch has to be gotten over with before fluff comes into play. It´s of little use to inspire a player if said player doesn´t know the rules to pull his tricks off. I can point players to less than a page of special info, they can make the rest up to their taste? Great. "You know the rules. What do you want to be?"

"You want to be an X. This is the key outline of being an X. How does that figure into everything else for you?" is way better than a player assuming that everybody else has read -and remembers- the same books. If your players are light on concept-consistency, having loads of supposedly known and adhered-to fluff harms the chances of a shared vision of the campaign (and I´ll use as much given fluff as possible, so go figure).

It is an illusion that you can provide flavour from the outside. The value of empowerment in RPGs is incredibly high. You want creativity, don´t provide the details yourself.
NightmareX
QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 24 2008, 12:39 PM) *
Actually, I kinda like the idea of nations that aren't open to everyone with a rating 2 fake SIN. Diversity, y'know?


As Not of this World mentioned and I agree with, the idea is about having holes in the proverbial Iron Curtain, not tearing it down.

QUOTE
You're kidding, right? Well, see for yourself. Sorry to have destroyed your life. It's the armpit of the internet.


Heh, some things one is actually better off not knowing.

QUOTE (Eugene @ Aug 24 2008, 01:04 PM) *
On the "wireless underwear" topic (sort of), I just finished reading Charles Stross' Halting State. In it there's a throwaway reference to RFID tags in clothing telling the washing machine what settings to use.


That at least makes some sense.

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 25 2008, 02:46 AM) *
it seems to me that the people here thats going wifi-phobic are the ones that read any device rating as a comlink-in-a-can...


QUOTE (BullZeye @ Aug 25 2008, 03:00 AM) *
And the worst hack you can do to a cloth-RFID is something like mess up the wash program to make your 20.000 buck shirt shrink to barbie clothing wink.gif


Anything with a device rating can be traced, so for security intents and purposes it's as bad as a commlink.

QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 25 2008, 07:32 PM) *
I have a problem that UMT means that "everything is really hermetic".


Not really - I view the new mechanics as essentially trickle down techniques that were pioneered under UMT. So essentially some shaman or witch somewhere got to thinking "y'know if magic is essentially the same thing across the board and these Hermetic wanks can bind spirits, maybe I can too". That doesn't mean he (or everyone) buys the idea that magic is universally the same, it just means they took that idea as inspiration to further develop their own tricks. Essentially a magical arms race type thing.

I can guarantee you, in fact (by RAW) that different traditions do not share a universal magical theory. They likely have flame wars (no pun intended) over who's Right ™ that make the SR3/4 thing look pleasant and friendly.

QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 25 2008, 07:45 PM) *
What I do mind is that it came at the expense of flavor for the other traditions. They could have easily increased the wordcount on Shamanism and Hermeticism in the BBB; in Street Magic, instead of mediocre writeups on a lot of traditions, they could have focused on really developing a few popular ones, and given shorter overviews on a lot more. I think emphasizing how to build a tradition more would have been better.


IMO they actually did a rather good job on the tradition descriptions.

QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 25 2008, 08:18 PM) *
Why does every religion have to come with a magic tradition of its own anyway?


Because the vast majority of RL traditions are firmly based in religion (even Hermeticism). Of those mentioned, only Chaos Magic does not have a religious bias.

QUOTE
Fluxus magic, Freudian thaumaturgy, deconstuctivist sorcery, postshamanism, mememancy, that's stuff i'd find exiting.
Probably that has been summed up under chaos magic, dunno.


Yup - you are essentially talking about Chaos Magic.

QUOTE (Blade @ Aug 26 2008, 03:48 AM) *
Funny I remember reading Dumpshock in the SR3 days and seeing long hate posts about how retarded the shadowslang was.


Yes, there were.

----------

Ok - I'm hearing alot of "if you don't like it house rule it". Please understand everyone that this is indeed my general approach. However, in that you've missed the entire point of this thread. The idea here is not about my home game, or yours, but rather to try to find some place of comprise where we as a whole (SR4 people and SR3 people) can agree on, put this pointless conflict aside, and get back to the business of loving Shadowrun. The point is to try to find a way to give the SR3 people enough of what they want - if only here - that they too can enjoy at least part of the new product line.

SR4 is a fact. It's not going to suddenly unprint itself, nor would I want it to. The only way to attain this comprise then IMO is to - and I mean no offense by this - find ways to view SR4 material in a manner that both sides can accept. After re-reading the material on the Tir alone tonight I'm sure this can be accomplished to some degree if we are willing to try. Admittedly, I don't have high hopes for that. After seeing how bogged down this discussion has become I'm not sure it can be done. But I for one would vastly prefer even a failed attempt than the endless sporadic flame war that's been going on since SR4 was released.
NightmareX
Now, regarding solutions/compromises:

QUOTE
* Lack of clarification/information on the world setting (which includes NAN and Tir treatment)
* Great Dragons getting too much spotlight and too many power plays


These are "solved" essentially by waiting and seeing what happens. Again, we can't control what Catalyst does. There are a number of hints (namely from Frosty) that the situation in the Tir isn't what it seems and that at least some of the old Princes are still pulling the strings. That alone tells me the situation isn't as simply as Horizon media-blitzing away the old regime (which according to Corporate Enclaves is a categorically untrue statement).

QUOTE
* Lack of shadowslang
* Cyberware as passe (not acceptable - this is a cyberpunk game)


The easiest way to deal with these is to assume they are fads and will pass in time (as Augmentation implies with the later - thank you to the person that mentioned that). If Catalyst takes that tact or not is not foreseeable, but the material in Augmentation could imply that.

QUOTE
* WiFi inanity (to put it succinctly, why is there a computer in everything including my underwear? Why can the hacker take control of my cyberarm, and why does my non-smartlinked gun have a computer that can shut it down in it?)


As I stated in the other thread, the solution would seem to be to apply the rule that the GM determines what actually has a device rating and use common sense. This may seem like saying just house rule it, but since it is stated in the BBB I see it more as employing an optional rule. Yes, that is GM fiat - no real way around it.

QUOTE
* Vehicle integration (it would help - we don't even use Maneuver score)
* Edge (in that to kill anyone you essentially have to kill them a number of times equal to their edge score)


Optional rule fixes need to be written, pure and simple. Any volunteers? Cain (you seem to have a head for mathematics IIRC)?

QUOTE
* Too much simplifcation of the magic system[/i] (More functional difference between emotion/tradition based traditions and intellect based traditions)


Since changing the core mechanics isn't an option (although adding more new material is) and the major consensus seems to be lack of differentiating details, the solution is clear - write more fluff. Volunteers?

QUOTE
* Technomancers (in the manner that they essentially are magical by the powers and fluff, and in the sense that they are somewhat overpowered)
* AI proliferation (why is every frikkin program waking up as an AI?)
* Dead plotlines
* Dead NPCs/institutions (ie Shadowland)
* Too much GM fiat[/i] (Rules exist to deny arbitrary whims)


Still no ideas here.
Ryu
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 27 2008, 11:32 AM) *
Ok - I'm hearing alot of "if you don't like it house rule it". Please understand everyone that this is indeed my general approach. However, in that you've missed the entire point of this thread. The idea here is not about my home game, or yours, but rather to try to find some place of comprise where we as a whole (SR4 people and SR3 people) can agree on, put this pointless conflict aside, and get back to the business of loving Shadowrun. The point is to try to find a way to give the SR3 people enough of what they want - if only here - that they too can enjoy at least part of the new product line.

SR4 is a fact. It's not going to suddenly unprint itself, nor would I want it to. The only way to attain this comprise then IMO is to - and I mean no offense by this - find ways to view SR4 material in a manner that both sides can accept. After re-reading the material on the Tir alone tonight I'm sure this can be accomplished to some degree if we are willing to try. Admittedly, I don't have high hopes for that. After seeing how bogged down this discussion has become I'm not sure it can be done. But I for one would vastly prefer even a failed attempt than the endless sporadic flame war that's been going on since SR4 was released.


I believe that most complaints can be addressed within the rules as written, and that most of them are fueled by people that are playing the game of the RC Face (good stories btw). Those who dislike parts of SR4 should IMO check if their perception is clouded - and I´m explicitly NOT saying that there are no points to improve upon. Has never been, will never be.
Rotbart van Dainig
Things that can't easily be solved
  • HMHVV going from 'treatment against Ghulism available in 2058' and 'partial vaccination against Vampirism available in 2064' to 'There is nothing that can be done - oh, and the fancy new essence restoration treatment doesn't work either'
NightmareX
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 27 2008, 05:04 AM) *
Things that can't easily be solved
  • HMHVV going from 'treatment against Ghulism available in 2058' and 'partial vaccination against Vampirism available in 2064' to 'There is nothing that can be done - oh, and the fancy new essence restoration treatment doesn't work either'


This is an easy fix. There were problems with both treatments that led to reversion, lethal effect, or something else undesirable. Kinda like how program carriers caused brain cancer. And yes, that is kinda a retcon answer wink.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 27 2008, 12:23 PM) *
There were problems with both treatments that led to reversion, lethal effect, or something else undesirable. Kinda like how program carriers caused brain cancer.

Actually, in that case, that would mean 'there is something that can be done, but it comes at a price' instead of 'there is nothing that can be done.'

The easy way out would be: Every HMHVV all over the world spontanously mutated due to the second crash.
Makes no sense? No problem, the complete worldwide technology exchange to wifi in less than five years doesn't, either .
NightmareX
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 27 2008, 05:46 AM) *
Actually, in that case, that would mean 'there is something that can be done, but it comes at a price' instead of 'there is nothing that can be done.'


Not the reversion angle - that would mean "something can be done, but only temporarily".

QUOTE
The easy way out would be: Every HMHVV all over the world spontanously mutated due to the second crash.
Makes no sense? No problem, the complete worldwide technology exchange to wifi in less than five years doesn't, either .


Not helpful Rotbart.
GreyBrother
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 27 2008, 11:52 AM) *
Since changing the core mechanics isn't an option (although adding more new material is) and the major consensus seems to be lack of differentiating details, the solution is clear - write more fluff. Volunteers?


Another option would be, to bring in tradition based merits/flaws. Something along the line "This traditions paradigma only knows ritual magic, so you can't use spellcasting." and stuff. How does that sound?

On Technomancers: I don't know how to "fix" them without a complete rewrite and you would have a problem with
a) the people who like them how they are (I do)
b) the people who liked the Otaku even better and want them more similar (i do too)
c) the people who don't like them
d) the people who have quite different ideas about "how they should be"
NightmareX
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 27 2008, 06:35 AM) *
Another option would be, to bring in tradition based merits/flaws. Something along the line "This traditions paradigma only knows ritual magic, so you can't use spellcasting." and stuff. How does that sound?


Good idea. I worked up a limited/partial Incompetence quality that can be used for that sort of thing, although it's not specifically designed for it. My search fu is weak so I'll just repost it here as an possible example.

Situational Incompetence
Cost: 5 bp
A character with this negative quality is impaired in his ability to use a certain Active skill he or she possesses (chosen when this quality is taken) for some reason. The reasoning behind this, and the exact limitations are chosen by the player (subject to the gamemaster’s approval) but should generally preclude the character from using the skill to it’s full effectiveness or from using the majority of the skill’s applications as defined by it’s specializations. Reasons for such limitation can range from physical inadequacy, lack of knowledge or training, psychological limitation, or simply restriction due to belief, as the following examples show:
• Demolitions (Improvised Explosives only) – because the character is self taught
• Intimidation (Mental only) – because the character is physically unassuming
• Pilot Ground Craft (Bike only) – because the character never learned to drive anything else
• Summoning (Can only summon as part of a Binding ritual) – because the character is a Hermetic mage who learned his Conjuring skills prior to the popularity of UMT and refuses to modify his magical practice
Situational Incompetence may not be applied to Language or Knowledge skills. In cases where the character is limited to a single specialization, he or she is treated as having a skill level of “unaware� for that particular skill and must default in order to use any other specializations of said skill. Situational Incompetence may be purchased more than once, choosing a separate skill each time.



Grinder
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 27 2008, 12:46 PM) *
The easy way out would be: Every HMHVV all over the world spontanously mutated due to the second crash.
Makes no sense? No problem, the complete worldwide technology exchange to wifi in less than five years doesn't, either .


Oh come on, you don't want to lower your niveau so much. HMVV has always been different in different editions . just pick the version you like most and stick with it. wink.gif
Ryu
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 27 2008, 11:52 AM) *
What I answered separatedly below


(On cyberware)
The easiest way to deal with these is to assume they are fads and will pass in time (as Augmentation implies with the later - thank you to the person that mentioned that). If Catalyst takes that tact or not is not foreseeable, but the material in Augmentation could imply that.

-> You are welcome. It wouldn´t get more explicit, see the main book on cyberware (gear chapter, cybermods are called omnipresent (or something, "allgegenwärtig")), and note that Aug says "it is no longer surprising to see people with obvious cybernetics".


(On the wireless paradigm)
As I stated in the other thread, the solution would seem to be to apply the rule that the GM determines what actually has a device rating and use common sense. This may seem like saying just house rule it, but since it is stated in the BBB I see it more as employing an optional rule. Yes, that is GM fiat - no real way around it.

-> Rules application. Modern devices (not! your pants) are usually computerised, but quote me where it says that all are. Yes, nearly everything can be computerised now. That I know. Removing the wireless paradigm is very easy, and only requires a houserule for an area that will rarely come up in a game. Name it and we can talk about it (Rotbart: No spoilers please.).


(On vehicle rules)
Optional rule fixes need to be written, pure and simple. Any volunteers? Cain (you seem to have a head for mathematics IIRC)?

-> I may have offered help with rules application above. I´m hoping on the help of at least Jaid and Tarantula, but open up a thread and take me up on it.


(On traditions)
Since changing the core mechanics isn't an option (although adding more new material is) and the major consensus seems to be lack of differentiating details, the solution is clear - write more fluff. Volunteers?

-> If you are out for that, buying Awakenings and SOTA 2064 is a good idea. Nanos gigantum humeris insidentes... We are (meta)humans standing on the shoulders of giants. No need to abandon the past, Awakenings is 2nd edition.


(Time moves on, plus TMs and GM whims)
Still no ideas here.

-> If laws are made to be broken, suggestions are made to be ignored. Bring specific ones up in their own threads if you want, in this format no discussion on that will be productive.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 27 2008, 01:06 PM) *
Not the reversion angle - that would mean "something can be done, but only temporarily".

Still not 'Nothing can be done'.
QUOTE (Grinder @ Aug 27 2008, 01:46 PM) *
HMVV has always been different in different editions . just pick the version you like most and stick with it.

Actually, the Ghoul rules in SR3 (Shadowrun Companion) and SR2 (Target: UCAS) are pretty much equivalent.
And the rest wasn't that different, either - see http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/HMHVV.htm for a summary.
Funny thing is that Cure Disease really helps now - and even funnier the fact that even if you manage to not become a Ghoul failing some tests, you'll loose Essence that can't be recovered... by the Revitalization therapy, at least - Cellular Repair, on the other hand, still can by RAW.
QUOTE (Ryu @ Aug 27 2008, 02:17 PM) *
(Rotbart: No spoilers please.)

Huh?
Wesley Street
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 27 2008, 05:52 AM) *
As I stated in the other thread, the solution would seem to be to apply the rule that the GM determines what actually has a device rating and use common sense. This may seem like saying just house rule it, but since it is stated in the BBB I see it more as employing an optional rule. Yes, that is GM fiat - no real way around it.


As I stated upthread, Augmentation covers that. There's no reason to house rule it. The only way to hack a cyberlimb, according to Augmentation, would be to a) have the cyberlimb in open diagnostic mode (and why would anyone do that unless it was being serviced?) and b) be standing less than (I believe) 3-5 meters away. The same logic applies to smart-links. A hacker would practically have to be touching the shooter AND have the link in diagnostic/"open" mode.

RFID tags are just chips that send out a very short-range transponder signal that says "Hey! I'm right here!" They aren't mini-commlinks and they aren't linked to anything mechanical that can be rigged or manipulated or tied into a node. An RFID signal is like a one-way street. So while you may have an RFID chip in your underpants a hacker can't use it to give you a cyber-wedgie.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 27 2008, 09:30 AM) *
RFID tags are just chips that send out a very short-range transponder signal that says "Hey! I'm right here!" They don't have an OS that can be hacked. It's like a one-way only street. So while you may have an RFID chip in your underpants a hacker can't use it to give you a cyber-wedgie.


Which is not to say that Databoxers™ and Datapanties™ brand Personal Data Keepers™ don't exist, they're just not completely ubiquitous.

-paws
DreadPirateKitten
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 26 2008, 02:14 PM) *
Unwired, page 62: Hills and other earthen features usually contain compounds of iron or other metals, which cause attenuation and reduce effective Signal ratings by 2 to 5 per meter of thickness, depending on metallic content. Every 10 cm of fresh water and every 1 cm of salt water reduces the effective Signal of a device by 1. For every ten meters of foliage or five meters of dense foliage, reduce Signal ratings by 1.

Throw up a big hill of earth thick with iron oxide deposits, plant a lot of trees and bushes around and stick your nexus or whatever under water and an average commlink can't cut through it. And those are just natural barriers.


RF stands for Radio Frequency, which is how you get radio and cell service today. Yes, its possibly to block RF with massive line of sight barriers, or whatnot, but, I am guessing your local radio stations are getting a 99.99% penetration rate on homes in your area.

Same for cell service. I can get high speed internet on my cell phone.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Aug 27 2008, 10:34 AM) *
Which is not to say that Databoxers™ and Datapanties™ brand Personal Data Keepers™ don't exist, they're just not completely ubiquitous.

-paws


Agreed. And in that case I would rule the Datapantiesâ„¢ with a commlink rating with a Response, Signal, etc. etc. It doesn't seem any different than an implanted commlink to me.
Ryu
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 27 2008, 02:20 PM) *
Huh?


I think you are aware of the area were removing wireless functions requires an iffy interpretation of given rules. I think it is so little of an actual problem that most don´t even know it.
Grinder
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 27 2008, 02:20 PM) *
Actually, the Ghoul rules in SR3 (Shadowrun Companion) and SR2 (Target: UCAS) are pretty much equivalent.
And the rest wasn't that different, either - see http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/HMHVV.htm for a summary.
Funny thing is that Cure Disease really helps now - and even funnier the fact that even if you manage to not become a Ghoul failing some tests, you'll loose Essence that can't be recovered... by the Revitalization therapy, at least - Cellular Repair, on the other hand, still can by RAW.


Yeah, ok, but did that ever affect your games or do you just want to bitch and moan about the sloppiness of the writers? grinbig.gif
Wesley Street
QUOTE (DreadPirateKitten @ Aug 27 2008, 10:36 AM) *
RF stands for Radio Frequency, which is how you get radio and cell service today. Yes, its possibly to block RF with massive line of sight barriers, or whatnot, but, I am guessing your local radio stations are getting a 99.99% penetration rate on homes in your area.

Same for cell service. I can get high speed internet on my cell phone.


Radio station broadcast towers and cellular service towers have an extremely powerful broadcast signal... because they're broadcasting. I don't have my BBB in front of me but maritime radar and FM radio have by far the highest signal-rating. So, yeah, they can penetrate. I wasn't trying to imply dirt would stop that and I apologize if it seemed like I was. The point I'm trying to make is that, according to the game rules, a hand-held commlink is unlikely to cut through all that and reach a corporate server/node that is purposefully not broadcasting a high-strength signal.

If I'm playing with a $10 remote control car with a low-power controller and the car falls into a sewer I'm not going to be able to drive it out again unless I can get my arm holding the controller down into the sewers.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Grinder @ Aug 27 2008, 04:41 PM) *
Yeah, ok, but did that ever affect your games

Ghouls and the risk of infection? Of course it did, especially with Ghoul PCs.
QUOTE (Ryu @ Aug 27 2008, 04:39 PM) *
I think you are aware of the area were removing wireless functions requires an iffy interpretation of given rules.

Seriously, I got no idea what you are talking about and why you think there was (and could be) a spoiler.
evanger
QUOTE (Eugene @ Aug 24 2008, 06:31 AM) *
... I don't think I miss the shadow slang. A lot of that stuff was originally used to avoid using real swears (because, you know, that's more threatening to our children than the fact that they're playing criminals). Now that swears are back in...



Minor note: swearing is not back in; it was deliberately never in there from the beginning. I think its tasteless to include real swear words in a professionally printed game book. Its not edgy or cool, its simply juvenile.

I also think the darker, more criminal tone (at least of some things) is a misguided direction. When PCs are not "the good guys" (at least comparatively), the any role playing game's fun goes downhill fast, in my opinion.
Smed
QUOTE (DreadPirateKitten @ Aug 27 2008, 09:36 AM) *
RF stands for Radio Frequency, which is how you get radio and cell service today. Yes, its possibly to block RF with massive line of sight barriers, or whatnot, but, I am guessing your local radio stations are getting a 99.99% penetration rate on homes in your area.

Same for cell service. I can get high speed internet on my cell phone.



Attenuation is a function of power level and frequency with lower frequencies having generally better propagation than higher frequncies. Low frequency signals penetrate buildings much more easily than higher frequency signals. US AM Radio operates at around 1 MHz and can bounce off the ionosphere and be received far over the horizon, being received 100s of miles away. FM Radio operates at around 100 MHz, and propagates less well, and can still easily cover a Metropolitan area with similar power as an AM Radio transmitter.

Cellular phone services operate at around 900 MHz or 2 GHz in the US depending on the type of service, and the propagation is nowhere near as good. Area coverage is done by having multiple towers (cells) and using many transmitters to achieve wide area coverage. The power levels at each transmit site are a good bit lower than what is used at a typical radio or TV station, they make it up by having a large number of them. The reason you can receive cell service is due to a very large network of transmission equipment designed to penetrate every area that people typically get to. They don't use massive power, but many transmitters.

Not that Shadowrun has, or needs that level of complexity in the rules, but its something to think about when comparing how real life communication systems work compared to the rules.

darthmord
QUOTE (DreadPirateKitten @ Aug 27 2008, 09:36 AM) *
RF stands for Radio Frequency, which is how you get radio and cell service today. Yes, its possibly to block RF with massive line of sight barriers, or whatnot, but, I am guessing your local radio stations are getting a 99.99% penetration rate on homes in your area.

Same for cell service. I can get high speed internet on my cell phone.


That's all fine and dandy but where I sit in my office has almost zero usable cell signal.

Why?

Because of the building construction and component make up cause significant blockage of the cell signal by my carrier.

But that has more to do with the construction and the specifications of the signal being transmitted (frequency, power, environmental conditions, etc) as was already covered by other folks.
Not of this World
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 27 2008, 04:35 AM) *
Another option would be, to bring in tradition based merits/flaws. Something along the line "This traditions paradigma only knows ritual magic, so you can't use spellcasting." and stuff. How does that sound?


This would go a long, long ways for me. I'd be a lot more willing to join the local SR4 GM on occasion with that.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (evanger @ Aug 27 2008, 10:49 AM) *
I also think the darker, more criminal tone (at least of some things) is a misguided direction. When PCs are not "the good guys" (at least comparatively), the any role playing game's fun goes downhill fast, in my opinion.

Shadowrun has always portrayed its PCs as anti-heroes, from 1st edition on. What about the game has turned darker?
Not of this World
They're not all Anti-Heroes.

I believe Shadowrun always has supported all kinds of gameplay. You could be a Robin Hood, a Samuel Verner, a Sally Tsung, a Dodger, whatever they were all a different level or flavor of morality and/or immorality.

That said I would also disagree that things have gotten darker (only during late 2nd edition), but they have gotten more Crass.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 27 2008, 12:25 PM) *
Shadowrun has always portrayed its PCs as anti-heroes, from 1st edition on. What about the game has turned darker?


I'll agree that the world has never been black and white. The character have been fairly complex in terms of their motivations. Even many of the most mercenary characters from the old school had a soft spot of some kind. And some could even be considered heroes, or at least hooders.

It sounds like evanger's games focus more on hooders, which is fine. (Personally, I'd rather play in that game than one that had a bunch of people that shoot people in the face for money, daily.)

Ultimately, IMO, this is just another mohawk vs tactical vest argument, which has been debated to death elsewhere.

-paws
Not of this World
QUOTE (Smed @ Aug 27 2008, 09:19 AM) *
Not that Shadowrun has, or needs that level of complexity in the rules, but its something to think about when comparing how real life communication systems work compared to the rules.


Here in lies the problem. The simple rules in SR4 BBB just don't work because you can hack anything with a device rating.

Yes, you can add real world complexity as a reason to house rule it but those are the rules.

Regardless it is here to stay until we move to another edition. Bridge under the water. Pick your SR3 or SR4 and home rule as appropriate.
Matsci
QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 27 2008, 05:41 PM) *
Here in lies the problem. The simple rules in SR4 BBB just don't work because you can hack anything with a device rating.

Yes, you can add real world complexity as a reason to house rule it but those are the rules.

Regardless it is here to stay until we move to another edition. Bridge under the water. Pick your SR3 or SR4 and home rule as appropriate.


You can hack anything with a Device rating that you are in Signal range of. Most cybergear has a signal range of 0-1. Getting within 3 meters of that really ticked off Street sam? Not a good idea.
Jhaiisiin
Yes, you can hack anything with a device rating, but that doesn't change the limitations of the device you're hacking, and that is the point a lot of people keep trying to make. You can't hack my blackberry and make it slice my face open. You could trash the software, even maybe cause it to short out or overload and burn me, but that's it. A minor dose of reasonable interpretation on any piece of equipment will explain what the device rating is responsible for. It could be a simple RFID chip, a digital ammo counter, or a diagnostic function. A simple diagnostic program, for example, reads the integrity of a device and presents the information for interpretation. It has no control over the equipment, so hacking it to shut down the equipment would be pointless.

People take this "everything is hackable" way too far.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Aug 27 2008, 02:16 PM) *
People take this "everything is hackable" way too far.


Agreed.

If someone is close enough to be able to hack a Signal 0 anything, then either target is already screwed or the hacker is screwed. Gettign that close to a (potentially) hostile target is just a bad idea.

-paws

Heath Robinson
"I'm not scared of bluetooth hackers. If someone is hacking me through bluetooth I can reach out and slap them for being an ass."
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Not of this World @ Aug 27 2008, 01:39 PM) *
They're not all Anti-Heroes. You could be a Robin Hood, a Samuel Verner, a Sally Tsung, a Dodger, whatever they were all a different level or flavor of morality and/or immorality.


Those examples are anti-heroes. An anti-hero isn't evil.

Superman. Traditional literary hero. Batman. Traditional literary anti-hero. Is your average Shadowrun PC a knight in shining armor or someone who slinks about in the... ahem... shadows? I would never say that someone can't play a white knight in Shadowrun. But it seems counter to the spirit of the game.

QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Aug 27 2008, 02:16 PM) *
People take this "everything is hackable" way too far.


Word!
Redjack
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Aug 27 2008, 12:35 PM) *
"I'm not scared of bluetooth hackers. If someone is hacking me through bluetooth I can reach out and slap them for being an ass."
Not wanting to derail the current conversation about rules vs RL, but that is not correct. It can be done from 1 mile away.

The game rules make it a little simpler. Single R0 = R0, always.
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