Once again, sorry, but I just finished reading the discription of 'softs on page 320 in Fourth Edition, you need a datajack or a sim-module to access 'softs, a set of trodes by itself does not make the cut.

Hmm, noticing clear nano-paste, hmm, if I had to guess I'd say they use their eyes to see the PASTE you've smeared on your head. And remember that even if they point the best jammer in the world at your head you still have prefect access to everything you have stored on the 'jack itself, including 'softs.

Yep, a datajack is worth its weight in gold because it allows a mage to do things that he otherwise simply couldn't, and remember that as cheap as 'jacks are we can talk about installing betagrade+ relatively easily. In fact, with the possible exception of implanting a third tricked out cybereye in the palm of your hand a datajack is better than the ware you've listed.

Oh and no, you can't use echo-location to cast spells anymore than you can use ultrasound sensors.

Emphasis mine.

If you're simply going to ignore accessories and whatnot, then you may as well ignore the use of knowsofts or linguasofts, too. Afterall, a Datajack doesn't let you access softs alone, either. You have to have the actual 'soft! Silly argument, huh? That's basically what you just tried to offer up.

Ok, let me admend that to trodes with a sim module, can do everything a datajack can. Honestly, you don't get any extra functionality from a datajack that you can't get from trodes (and a sim module for softs).

You seem to think for nanopaste trodes to work, you need to dunk your head in the stuff pratically. I don't think its quite that wet and nasty. Differences of world view.

Lets see, they could always just stick deactivators into your datajack. Honestly, aruging that "it can't be taken away" isn't very strong, because by the time you lose ALL your gear, your GM is just letting you live out of courtesy.

As far as being better, I think a lot of logic based mages would jump at +1 LOG for drain a lot faster than "trodes that can't be taken away".

But, echolocation is biologically based, not technological, which is the all important distinction for spells.

Bwuh?

You can't target spells using echolocation!

It functions "like a true ultrasound system" which doesn't allow spell targetting. If it did allow the exception, it would specifically say so.

And why don't true ultrasound systems allow spell targetting? Because they're technological. Guess what, this isn't. Why shouldn't it let it?

And another point against datajacks, if someone hacks it, they can then use it to hack ALL your DNI enabled cyber. Trodes don't open the door like that.

It's not a simple tech/bio split.
Rather it's based more on whether you're actually seeing something vs. seeing an overlay of interpreted data.

The pit-viper gland is biological and it doesn't allow targetting.
Cybereyes are technological and DO allow targetting, even if you gain thermo vision.
Echolocation/ultrasound and radar don't.

Without an actual listed exception, the default is to use the rules they give you: "as echolocation" - which specifically disallows spell targetting.

If you've got a page reference for "any bio sense allows spell targetting" I'd love to see it.

SR4, 173, "Step 3: Choose the Target(s)
The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is
choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."
Emphasis mine.

The ultrasound section (324 on SR4) and the Echolocation section (63-64 Aug) make no mention of spell targeting. Since the choose the targets section of spellcasting says any technological visual aids, and echolocation is not one, then it is a valid way to choose a target.

Alright - how about this: "visual." Echolocation is aural.

Except it 64, Aug, "functions like a true ultrasound system" which, 324, SR4, "The ultrasound accessory consists of an emitter that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver that picks up the echoes of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound “map� that is laid over (or replaces) the user’s normal visual sensory input."

Emphasis mine. So it is visual.

Bioware isn't technology? It doesn't cause essence loss?

SR4, 173, "Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

Bio-enhancements with essence can be used. Only technological visual aids (such as cameras, elec binoculars, matrix feeds) can't be used. Echolocation meets the criteria.

You can't target using overlays - that's why you can't use goggles/glasses/contacts.

Can't target with TECHNOLOGICAL overlays. Guess what bioware isn't.

So the actual argument is that since echolocation is bioware that causes essence loss it can be used as a visual targeting method by mages.

Because it isn't technological, such as a camera, or ultrasound sensor, but an organ/combination of organs.

Going slightly back on topic, you can always add a sim module to a commlink or trode net, allowing the use of softs.

The issue here is that a datajack can't do anything that a trode net/sim module cannot do. The only advantage is that it can't be taken away from you; but if you're that concerned about using the matrix when captured, you should be considering an implanted commlink.

A datajack is not the same thing as an implanted commlink. Ravor keeps mentioning using a datajack as headware memory, but you can do that with any piece of cyber. And because of the way wireless works in SR4, you can use your cybereyes as a remote-control for the TV as well. (Granted, leaving the wireless on is stupid; but that's true for a datajack as well.)

To get this thread back on topic: Echolocation discussion continues here.

I think you can not use those for an old chool cable connection. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

You can plug a cable into most any device, why wouldn't trodes come with a port for a cable?

As much as I used to always have a datajack. I think I've been sold on just using trodes/sim module. Might as well keep that essence for something else.

Hey everybody, I've got a question: Why are Technical Skills covered under active skills?

Take for instance Software. This is a skill that makes no sense that it's covered under an active skill when it is obvious that it's a Knowledge based skill. Heck the only skills that should need an activesoft and skillwires are Physical (duh) and Combat. In the case of Combat skills, you don't know HOW to move and you don't move right this millisecond then you're screwed. Software or Electronic Warfare, or First Aid seem to me skills that don't need millisecond reactions.

It's another legacy WTF? moment for the game.

In a nutshell, the assumption seems to be "if you will actively use the skill to perform an action while shadowrunning or create a tangible benefit for a runner, it's an Active Skill; if not, it's a Knowledge Skill." But instead of calling them Important Skills and Fluff Skills, or whatever other designation you want to give them, they went with Active and Knowledge. 'Course, this basic assumption gets ignored here and there as various freelancers and whatnot get pulled into the misnomer of the phrase "Knowledge Skills."

So, basically, it's all just one big cluster fuck. And has been since they introduced them. Just nod and smile and go with the flow.

Bring back the Skill Tree! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Okay, this conversation has me confused and frustrated, so, from a ex-decker, I'm gonna talk, and you tell me if I'm wrong.

Datajack: Back in the day, it was how we got connected with our cyberdecks. Also, how we'd mainline data from simdecks and such, if you weren't as cool as me. Back then, if you wanted to implant all your decking gear, you were lucky if you weren't using up most of an arm. And to hack a computer, you still had a wire trailing from you to it. Simple, end of story, good for security, shitty when you aren't a bulletproof chromejob.

Subdermal datajacks, instead of a plug and socket configuration, used an induction pad, and a magnet. Simple, no chrome donut upside your head.

Trodes were for mages and pussies who wouldn't go chrome, and letting said pansies see the awesome drek I was doing online.

Even today though, you don't get a Signal rating out of your datajack. It's for plugging into those nice new commlinks. Which give old hands like me wireless instead of dodging bullets freezing my balls off outside a corp security door. It does NOT let me wireless link with my commlink in my hands, that's what an implanted commlink does (and does well *taps his left temple*).

And again, if you're a mage, or a pussy, you can use trodes and get the same effect...if you want them snatched off your head, or some such.

So, why get a datajack nowadays? Well, sure there's the nostalgia factor. But here's why I have them. Unhackable connections. One jack in my temple, one in the wrist of my cyberarm. The wrist jack goes straight into my held commlink, so I can manipulate it at full speed, without worrying about the traffic being screwed with. Same for smartguns. As for my cranial jack, sometimes, you run into a system that's (OMG) not wireless, or worse, not even ON the Matrix. You have to socket in, and hack it with those skills we developed back in the day. And even your balls to the wall technomancer buddy's still running a line from something to get in there, so, why not clear the hackable middle-man, and route my internal commlink, which is currently OFF wireless, and plug straight in? I get full VR hot-sim speeds, and DNI interface, with no chance of some outside interference...just me and the machine I'm bending over.

Yes, you do. Typically at 0, but you still get wireless with it unless you get it specifically without it.



Again, no reason you can't take your trodes, and plug a cable into them and run it to a system. You could even run cables from your trodes to your smartgun and commlink and what not if you wanted.
What hackable middleman is there? keep your trodes wireless off if you want, and just plug them in, same security cheaper, and no essence lost.