Congrats - you've just proved my point.

Ultrasound is an eye-mod.
Echolocation isn't.

Except, that echolocation + vocal range extender + hearing amp functions as a true ultrasound system, and references that page he quoted. Guess what that means, it turns into visual, as soon as you get it with the other goodies. Why? Because the book says so. This is why it should get errataed to say "functions as a true ultrasound system, but is still not visual". or somesuch.

p. 64 Augmentation
"If combined with the vocal range enhancer (p. 67) and
hearing enhancement (p. 65) implants (or their cyberware equivalents),
with a little training this augmentation functions like a true
ultrasound system (p. 324, SR4)."

Just what's in the book.

And what eye-modification is included in "vocal range enhancer" and "hearing enhancement"?

No eye-mod, no real overlay - just an example of how-to-handle.

Is it really that hard to grasp?

Except that it says " functions like a true ultrasound system". Which means it IS either overlayed or replaces. This is why I say the book needs to correct that, to say that it is NOT visual based. Because the way it is worded now, it is.

Has anyone suggested that if it is connected/wired into the Visual Cortex of the brain in question it is visual aspect and can be used for spell targeting, it not then it can not be?

WMS

OK, I'm sorry but I could not find any links for Dolphins using Biosonar to target for spells, but I did find this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_echolocation#Bats



This to me means that a bat can use biosonar to see by using sound.

============================================================

Anyways, back on topic: I can see why bioware mods could not be used (I don't agree, but I won't argue with Synner), but with SURGE it's completely natural for the Changeling. It's biology gone a little screwy.

I tried. Synner says "no go." I won't argue with him as he's a dev though I do disagree with his reasoning.

No, that means that a bat can accurately perceive their environment by using sound. That doesn't make it "seeing". But whenever we encounter a sense we don't have we always describe it using a visual metaphor, because we're primarily visual animals. Have you seen (again with the visual metaphor) how much real estate our visual system uses in our brains?

Well since this is worse than a "Soup Sandwich".

I have no issue with arguing with him. But since they are way behind on the current list of errata, I do not hold much hope for a resolution to this issue or the many others.

Saying it has to be wired into the visual cortex reduces the number of loopholes etc.

WMS

It really depends on what part of the brain is doing the processing. If the processing of the Echolocation is being done by the optical center of the brain, then it should count as a form of vision.

If it's being processed elsewhere and then piped to the optical center, then no it should not work.

It's really a matter of whether or not a given frequency is perceivable by the optical center of the brain. All sounds, light, IR, UV, and RF are simply various forms of radiation that are transmitted on different frequencies. A certain range of which we call visible light.

As an aside, most people grasp the concept they can perceive UV under certain conditions. Namely, eliminate all visible light and turn on a UV light source. You'll still be able to see. What most people DON'T grasp is you can do the same with IR as well.

How I'd rule it?

Simple. If the Essence is paid for and the processing is done by the meat, then it counts. If the processing is done by the machine, it doesn't count.

Could you please explain how expanding the range of sounds you can hear and emit, turns an acoustig sense in to a visual sense?

Oh right nothing.

Well the biggest problem is at least IMO the fact that the writer desided to preference the Ultrasound vision, becouse even with those exra mods it can not work like the cyber version.
Considering that the character is emitting ultrasound from her mouth, it can't exacly be allways on like the the cyber ultrasound vision.

I don't think this came across quite how you meant it. Visible light, IR, UV, and RF are different frequencies of the same thing. Sound is a fundamentally different thing from all those others.

edit: Not trying to be nitpicky, but it did seem like you were saying that sound was part of the electromagnetic spectrum. You can't say that, there are kids here, man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yeah, the book says it functions as a true ultrasound system, so that makes it work as a visual sense. This is why I say the book needs errata. It should not be visual, but the book says it is.


No, but by that line of reasoning, you should be able to use radar sensors instead then, as it is in the EM spectrum, and cybereyes work, why wouldn't radar?

*shrug* Maybe whatever carried the spell-targeting requirement only works over certain wavelengths. Maybe the "current"-gen radar system require too much processing and that destroys the component necessary for targeting. Maybe because having magicians able to target enemies through walls all the time would ruin the game, so all we need is a pseudo-plausible explanation so that we can have a reasonably consistent world in which to play a fun game.
I don't really care either way, I'm not part of the echolocation-as-spell-targeting argument. I was just saying that sound doesn't belong in the same family as EM radiation. You're talking spell targeting, I'm talking physics. I want no part of this mess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But physically, theres on reason the radar system couldn't function as cybereyes that emit their own light (you know, like eye-light systems). Emit, receive, link established. Should work.

I do agree radar would be overpowerful. What would echolocation targetting do... let makes target things easier in smoke. And let them target invisible people without astrally perceiving. Neither of which I think is game breaking.

It would let you MANABOLT UNBORN BABIES! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
And, realistically, with enough computer power behind it ultrasound should let you see through a lot of non-sound-proof walls. With distortion, of course, since the sound will change speed and refract (or is that diffract, I always confuse those two. Both, I think) as it passes through different materials. But I don't think the SR description of ultrasound includes anything about any of that.

KILLING BABIES!

Just so I have it correctly:

Tarantula noticed that three items of essence-paid 'ware works like another eye-mod in the RAW. None of the three items is itself an eye-mod. He wanted to know if a mage could cast with the combo.

I understand all the real world and logical explainations why it should not work, and personally I don't think it should.

But as a GM I might be willing to allow it without a rule or errata to the contrary. Why? Because you paid essence for three bits of 'ware, and the benefit is minimal.

As a parent, I'd give some of you a time out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) No one is calling anyone's mother an ork. A little civility on everyone's part goes a long way.

No, it's not Eyeware anymore.

Both Ultrasound and Radar Sensor are Headware.

And that is the real reason that mages can't use Ultrasound/Radar to target spells.

That is why radar/ultrasound don't work.

Obviously bio ultrasound can't use a computer generated composite representation, as there is no computer. Which is why it should work with the way the books are worded now.

No, that is just the justification that Synner used on these boards.

Oh, and even the bit of Synner's post that you quoted still does not support the idea that echolocation can be used to target spells because it isn't the computer processing that frags spell targeting, it's the fact that they use a non-visual sense in the first place.

And kittens! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

But but but it references the rules for ultrasound VISION. See, it has VISION in the word, so it must be eyesight. Nevermind that Echolocation starts and ends as an acoustic sense for spatial perception. Nevermind that it only uses those rules when you improve your voice and your hearing. It still auto-magically becomes SIGHT because it references the rules for ultrasound VISION! Which is an EYE mod (even though it's not, and simply housed in a cybereye to make projecting the acoustical data easier for you rather than completely rewiring your brain to accept the new spatial perception like Echolocation does)! So, you see, it's clearly a VISION enchancement in your EYES for improving your line of SIGHT. It's a flawless argument (if you ignore everything else, including common sense)!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

It's like arguing with an ostrich.

I also love the new argument. "Well, it's not unbalanced to allow it, so I'm cool with it." It's not unbalanced to let hearing, taste or even smell to target spells either, yet those aren't valid methods for determining line of sight. Hell, it's not even unbalanced to let electronic magnification or goggles with low-light vision or thermographic vision from working either. But, shockingly enough, they're not valid forms of line of sight, too.