First, it's not a new arguement - I said in my post I don't think it should work. But as a GM, if the player spots something I can't clearly make a ruling on, I will usually allow it if it isn't unbalanced in my game.

Second, my assumption was premised on the mod in question being an eye-mod. As RvD pointed out, it isn't anymore. I'd be more apt as a GM to not allow it in that case.

Third, I said as a GM I might allow it, as in I would have made a house rule. I fail to see how anyone else's house rules affect your play. It's an RPG, its made to be house-ruled. I'm not suggesting that should be that way for everyone.

Fourth, relax. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

The problem with the arguement against ultrasound being vision is this. The cyberware is headware, and obviously not a cybereye modification. The referenced mod is a "VISION ENHANCER" and would normally go on binoculars, glasses, contacts, goggles, etc what have you. I think its fairly clear that that is a vision enhancer, and thusly, so would echolocation ultrasound.

How daft can someone be.

Being able to hear and speak in wider spectrum of SOUND, doesn't make your hearing into a vision.
It's just that simple.

Which is why the book shouldn't state that it IS vision. Which it does, by referencing the VISION enhancement.

Also, not only do you head and speak wider spectrum of sound, you have a NEW ORGAN to translate that into a visual image. You can't possibly conceive of a new organ that hooks up to your visual cortex and makes you see the reflections of the sounds?

Judging by the sheer amount of vitriol this thread has generated I'd answer that with a big fat NO. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)

Hint: the Daredevil movie is not a good representation of how echolocation works.

But it is a good example of possibly what ultrasound would look like, which is what the echolocation + vocal range enhance + hearing enhance is.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) why not we see reflected light ie photons, <<ultra>>sound is also reflected photons too.

Lets change it to Sensory Cortex rather than Visual Cortex. Then if connected/wired to one's Sensory Cortex you can spell target things/persons. That also allows dolphins to target things/creatures with magic using their SONAR, since that is part of the dolphins Sensory Cortex.

"Damn The CANON/RAW, Full Game Speed ahead."
"You May Fire When Ready Gridely."

WMS

Edited.

There is so much wrong with that sentence that I don't know where to begin.

Here for those of lesser Physics Education then.
Photons

The beautiful part about this is you really have no clue. I'm wiping a tear away at just how beautiful it is. Especially with the "of lesser Physics Education" part. Oh, my poor sides.

And you really don't want to go there - otherwise the Radar Sensor could be used to qualify for spellcasting LoS.

The sillyness of this thread astounds me.

Regardless of how one can say that Ultrasound can and *is* a natural sense for some species but that doesn't make is a VISUAL SENSE.

Bats have Echolocation/Ultrasound but the problem is that it is *SOUND WAVES* and whoever thought that they were photons needs to think again.

Nowhere in a description of photons do i find the word "sound waves"...or that sound waves are seen by the naked eye.

So, if the sense is natural or not doesnt matter as the brain translates SOUND into a what i would call a mental image of the surroundings, it doesnt paint a picture for your eyes to see.

Vision: Sense used - Brain+Eyes
Ultrasound: Sense used: Ears+Brain

I wonder what the penalties would be if one had such a sense and the sheer visual noise from all sources of radars and sensors that clog up the area.

Unless it's real Jamming? None.

I see what Tarantula saying. The book is calling it a vision mod. Vision mods have historically been allowed to be used for spell targeting as they cost Essence and become an inherent part of the mage's system. This is why cyber eyes work for mages despite them being little electronic cameras.

Since it's been stated (by Synner) that Ultrasound / Echolocation cannot be used for spell targeting, an Errata needs to be made on the Echolocation bioware.

What errata? The fact that it's a vision mod.

Vision Mods = Usable for spell targeting
Echolocation = Vision Mod
Therefore, Echolocation = Usable for spell targeting
But Ultrasound & Echolocation = NOT usable for spell targeting

Thus: Echolocation = Not Vision Mod

It's not hard. Either it can be used for targeting and IS a vision mod or it cannot be used for targeting and is NOT a vision mod.

Pretty much, but apparently pointing out that the way the books have it written out to make something possible that we think is likely not to be intended is stupid and gets you harassed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually, that's wrong.

It can be a vision mod and not be used for spellcasting. Just because.

It's more than "make something possible that we think is likely not to be intended." Entirely too many people claim that it is totally accurate and believable. Those are the people getting "harassed" by how stupid a comment it is. Now you have people saying sound waves and light are both photons while looking down upon everyone else as being of "lesser Physics education." Sorry, but dumbasses are running rampant in this thread.

And, to be honest, if your entire argument hinges on the use of a descriptor while simultaneously ignoring the bulk of the text, your argument sucks. Doubly so if you're telling everyone who is reading and understanding the bulk of the text that they're the ignorant ones.

Again, that majority of the text describes the echolocation ware on its own, not combined with the other ware where it then becomes a true ultrasound system, and references that text for how it works.

^

Again, case in point.

Lines have been drawn and the debate has moved to a stalemate and an argument.
Add something new or move along.

Indeed. You refuse to acknowledge that the majority of that text is describing echolocation on its own, and not combined with the other mods. You continue to state that even though it states it functions as a true ultrasound system.

From the text you say we keep ignoring, Aug, 63-64, "The echolocation augmentation provides the user with a
simple form of acoustic sensing that, contingent on the volume
of the noise the character uses for detection and background
noise volume, allows the character to make out general shapes,
sizes, and distances to objects—building a “low resolution� image
of his surroundings. The range of the spatial perception is also
limited; in a quiet warehouse, a tapping cane is loud enough to
sound out most of the warehouse, but on a crowded street, the
same tapping cane might be good only for a 5-meter perception
radius. Echolocation can pick up things otherwise invisible
to the naked eye, such as glass walls or opponents cloaked with
Invisibility spells."

A lot of that works completely different to ultrasound, which makes no mention of background noise causing a problem, is not low resolution, and is not limited in range. Also, instead of general shapes, ultrasound says, "While ultrasound vision is perfect to “see� textures, calculate exact distances, and pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye". Considerably different than "oh, theres a flat shaped thing in front of my I don't want to run into, probably a wall.

I meant everyone.

What about synestasia? As I understand it, this cross-circuiting of the brain makes people's senses get interpreted in non-standard ways (e.g. 'seeing' smells, 'hearing' colors, etc). Could a synestasiac mage target a sound that he 'saw', or an image that he 'heard'? I would lean toward 'no' for both, because his hearing isn't specific enough for precise targeting, and the image being processed as sound would corrupt the link that the mage is trying to establish as well. But I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.