Just as a fun aside, we have—in real life—already used natural eyes as cameras. There have been successful experiments where a data tap on the optic nerve of a subject animal was converted into a watchable picture on a computer monitor. I.E. whatever the animal looks at with its natural eyes is also visible on the computer screen.

The experiments are being done because understanding the signal sent to the brain is an important step to building better cybereyes. And yes we have done very crude artificial vision for a handful of human subjects.

There are basically three methods in real life:

• The first involves a device attached to the retina that stimulates it based on what a small camera sees. This method works the best so far because it turns out that even the retina itself does some small amount of image processing.
• The second involves an electrical cuff around the optic nerve, that would send data down the nerve to the brain. This method is how full replacement cyber eyes are most likely to work, but is currently the least developed, due to the complexity.
• The third skips the nerve and sends camera data directly to the brain itself. The brain needs significant time to learn how to interpret the strange data, but subjects can after headache inducing training see grades of shadow, indicating general size of objects in front of them. By the way this third method is considered unethical in the U.S. because it alters an otherwise healthy brain in tying to solve a problem that is external to the brain.

SR4, 173, "Step 3: Choose the Target(s)
The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is
choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."


Then why does biological echolocation state that it works as ultrasound cyberware, which is vision. If it is not vision, it should state that it works as the cyberware, but is not vision. It needs to state that, because the ultrasound vision section it references says that it overlays/replaces vision.


I got tired of reading the thread so someone may have pointed this out already.
but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses
references says that it overlays/replaces vision

These two sentences answer the question. The bioware and cyberware are technological means that replaces vision. That means that the new echolocation "vision" is a substitution for vision and therefore cannot be used for spell targeting.

The arguement is that because it is bioware, and done via living tissue, it is not "technological" but "biological".

And for-better-or-worse the RAW SR4 answer is that since Ultrasound & Echolocation are not eye modifications, they are not vision (for magical targeting), only like vision for ease of explanation (and non magical use).

The 'ware ultrasound is not a vision mod, correct.

The 'ware echolocation references the ultrasound GEAR which is a vision enhancement modification that is put on glasses and the like and IS a vision mod.

The headware references the exact same thing. Your point?

Echolocation isn't a technological visual aid, its a biological one.

Really, I like for the spellcasting rules to use ultrasound as an example of something you can't cast with.

Then it Really comes down to your GMs call. I would argue against it working for spellcasting because it takes a technological means to give the mages body that biological advantage. It's something along the same lines as the question "Why does Bioware reduce essence it's biological isn't it?"

Echolocation is not a visual aid because it is not in the eyes. It is describe as like vision, and uses the Ultrasound rules for simplicity. If Ultrasound was eyeware as opposed to headware, than there would be an issue.

Neither is the Ultrasound Sensor headware. Which, again, points to the same exact set of rules that Echolocation does. According to your argument, that means the headware implant is just as viable as Echolocation is for spellcasting. Which it isn't. Neither is Echolocation.

Ultrasound cyberware is not biological, but technological. Which gets it barred due to the technological enhancements sentence.

Amazing how you guys change your arguments on a whim.

According to you, because they reference the Ultrasound Sensor available to glasses and whatnot, that makes it a "vision mod." The Ultrasound Sensor headware implant is paid for with Essence and, again according solely to you, is also a vision mod because it references said set of rules just like Echolocation does. Thus, again according to you, that makes it a "vision mod" paid for with Essence and thus available for use with LOS spellcasting.

Sorry, but you can't selectively ignore things. Even though you have from the start of this silly discussion.

Yes, except for the fact that it is a TECHNOLOGICAL vision mod, which are not viable for casting.

Bioware is technologigal too, it's not a natural part of you.

no, it'S not, it's biological, not technological . . it's just CALLED Biotech, because there are medical technologies that allow to change biological tissue to do things it usually could/should/would not do . . it's still UNNATURAL mind you, but not technological . . and still not useable as LOS for Spell-Targetting

Oh! In that case your NEW argument is that Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision, and hell, CYBEREYES aren't viable for spellcasting! My bad. What was I thinking?

I know Dr. F just said the same thing, but I'm gonna drive this point home: by that definition, so are cybereyes.

Hrm, I've been arguing off the cuff too much lately, and thrown myself in a corner. Oops.

All this back and forth is why something needs an errata.

Echolocation text indicates it's a vision mod.

Vision mods paid for with Essence are viable for use in spell targeting.

External vision mods that don't apply technological processing are also viable for use in spell targeting. (unless that changed in SR4. Thus Optical binoculars were okay, but electronic ones weren't.)

We have competing statements that state Ultrasound and Radar can't be used. This is true due to them being headware, not eyeware.

So it leaves us in a situation where we have a vision modification paid for with Essence that can't be used in spell targeting. That violates a long standing rule. Thus an errata should be issued that corrects this descrepancy. If Echolocation cannot be used as sight (ie: it works like Ultrasound), then it needs to lose the vision mod descriptor.

The rest of the bickering is nothing more than a huge circle jerk with everyone saying they are right.

No it definedly doesn't, it just refenences the rules for ultrasound vision.
The text for echolocation meke it quite clear that it's not a vision mod and so do all texts for all the other parts necesary to make it work as a true ultrasound system.

What vision mod?

None of these (Radar, Ultrasound, and Echolocation) are vision mods.

Echolocation states it functions like the ultrasound vision enhancement.
Ultrasound ware says it is an implanted version of the ultrasound vision enhancement.

Radar uses the same verbage as the ultrasound vision enhancement, and says it is similar. It doesn't say it is a vision enhancement.

That doesn't make it a vision mod.
Since we're both humans i could say i funktion like you, but that doesn't mean i'm you.

In SR3 there was a distinction between electronic cybereyes and purely optic cybereyes, i.e. in which the received electromagnetic waves would only be reflected and magnified through lenses. This second type of cybereye was required by mages in order to cast spells. Anything like mirros or glasses did not hamper spellcasting. Images reproduced by electronic devices however could not be used for spell targetting, be it a camera video feed or an electronic cybereye - in the end they are the same.

In SR4 this has been "simplified". The cybereye now only needs to have been paid for with essence (except for the errata about eyeball drones). By which means the "vision" is generated doesn't matter anymore. Therefore, based only on what is written in the book, I agree with Tarantula: in SR4, ultrasound vision should work for spell targetting.

I know that Synner wrote this wouldn't work. If a developer says so, then so be it. However, I do not agree with his explanation about it.

You might want to take a look at how you can make cybereyes with Ultrasound built in. I'm interested in how that is done. From what I can see, you can make lots of devices with ultrasound, but you can't actually construct the cybereyes themselves with Ultrasound. There's no capacity or essence cost nor the option in the eyeware tables.

You can get Ultrasound Sense, but that is headware, not an eyeware mod.

If you could get cybereyes with ultrasound, then this would be an interesting question then.