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venenum
post Sep 6 2008, 01:24 AM
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I have to agree. Just becuase we can min/max till the cows come home doesn't mean we will, most people that play do it to roleplay, be able to get those sper stats is fun but I would rather have a chamce of failure to make the game interesting.
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Falconer
post Sep 6 2008, 02:04 AM
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I agree w/ the sentiment... but IMO... there should be no more than say a +-15 karma spread between worst and best racial pick. Picking that number becuase 30karma is 5% of 600, only about 3% of 750. So reasonably w/in a good margin. My only problem is that some metas can end up w/ effectively a 50karma bump, and 50 is a lot of karma (orcs, trolls, and dwarves being the biggest offenders).

So on one side I agree w/ the guys trying to cost everything accurately... even though I think they go a bit too far at times in nitpicking.
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Muspellsheimr
post Sep 6 2008, 03:28 AM
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I fully agree that people should play what they want, and in most cases, will.

I do not agree that they should be penalized for their choice of race, which is exactly what happens when you choose Human over any other racial option (excluding Templates, such as Infected, which I do not consider a race).

Because of that penalization, the RAW Karma Generation is, put simply, broken. That is the primary reason that I am so opposed to it.
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Jhaiisiin
post Sep 6 2008, 03:32 AM
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So is the BP system broken for penalizing metas with their racial costs? (esp when it's been proven the stats don't match up to the racial cost?)
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Falconer
post Sep 6 2008, 03:46 AM
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Jhaiisiin:
I think it's pretty well documented dwarf, orc, or troll tends to be the best buy in any system (no clue about priority... nobody is using that one). In some ways a good DM can make people regret picking those w/ outright racism, increased costs of living, etc. But most don't. And you get people going out of their ways to say it shouldn't cost more for a troll to eat his daily bread or buy space amounting to a luxury apartment for a smaller race w/o having some kind of cost penalty. And really, when was the last time you saw the short lifespan be a problem (how many orcs w/ canes, cataracts, and arthritis you see wandering around at the ripe old age of *30*). I'm a bladerunner fan, so I tend to refer to that as the 'accelerated decripitude' problem.


IMO, the bigger problem with BP is that encourages a different form of min/maxing... it highly encourages astronomical skills and attributes and barely competent skills and attributes. You want to take advantage of the linear costs in chargen before getting hit with the geometric karma advancement costs in play. You also want to take advantage that it's not double cost for the first rank in a skill under BP unlike karma (and to avoid defaulting). It's cheap to move a dump attribute from 1->2 or 2->3 for a mere 6 or 9 karma... so do you really want to drop 10 or 20 BP into that in chargen? BP really displays this when you get the 9 or 10 body troll or orc out of chargen, where the character isn't paying the sky high karma advancement prices for going from 7->8 and up.

I think the reason I look at karmagen as the best system to try and 'fix' is because it unifies in-game and chargen costs. We also have it from ancient history that they include 'racial commonality' as a cost mod. So just because the race is common it gets free stat points and skills? (I give the guy props for coming out and posting on here on the subject as well, even if I do disagree with him).

There's also the issue that the system encourages maxing the stat, before sinking more points into individual skills, so having races w/ higher attribute caps gives more room for growth. So just because it's cheaper for a human to buy his starting stats, he's also going to cap out at 6 attribute + 6 skill much faster.
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Muspellsheimr
post Sep 6 2008, 03:50 AM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Sep 5 2008, 08:32 PM) *
So is the BP system broken for penalizing metas with their racial costs? (esp when it's been proven the stats don't match up to the racial cost?)

I have never claimed it was not; the RAW Build Point costs for most species are flawed, either being to expensive or to cheap. They are, however, superior to Karma Generation. Using Build Points, you pay for your racial advantages, even if the cost is fucked up. In Karma, you get those advantages with no cost whatsoever.
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Jhaiisiin
post Sep 6 2008, 04:19 AM
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I still don't get where you see no cost, given the ultra high costs of increasing attributes to their racial maximums.

Again, I'm not likely to swing over to your side and it's obvious you'll not swing over to my view, so I'm agreeing to disagree.
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Muspellsheimr
post Sep 6 2008, 04:57 AM
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6 Body is 6 Body, regardless of if it is a Human or Troll. Either way, it gives you 6 dice for all involved tests, allows you to wear up to 12 Armor unencumbered, and gives you a Damage Track of 11 (17 Overflow).

The cost for a Human to reach 6 Body is significantly greater than that of a Troll. Further, the Human does not have the option of increasing it further, without specific exceptions. The Troll does.

Game mechanics & balance does not differentiate between if the Attribute is the maximum for the species, or the minimum. The only thing that matters is the final value, and under Karma generation, non-Human characters achieve that final value at a significantly reduced cost.

Under Build Point generation, the cost for non-Human species may not be at a balanced level, but for most it is close. Yes, an Elf is (base stats) more powerful than a Human. That is why it costs to play one; you pay for your ability increases. Using Karma generation, you receive the same power increase without the associated cost, unbalancing the game.
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Jhaiisiin
post Sep 6 2008, 05:24 AM
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I think our differing view stem how we're viewing costs.

It seems you view things on a cost to get to human max, and I do it on a cost to get to racial max. *shrug*

EDIT: Alternately, I'm viewing cost in the context of the world of Shadowrun, and it seems you're coming at it from a purely mechanics standpoint. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to be implying I know exactly how you're thinking)
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Jhaiisiin
post Sep 6 2008, 05:25 AM
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edit: Stupid multi-posting blackberry
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Jhaiisiin
post Sep 6 2008, 05:25 AM
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edit: and again. Sorry about that.
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Muspellsheimr
post Sep 6 2008, 05:49 AM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Sep 5 2008, 11:24 PM) *
I think our differing view stem how we're viewing costs.

It seems you view things on a cost to get to human max, and I do it on a cost to get to racial max. *shrug*

No, I am viewing the costs needed to get a numerical value, be it maximum, minimum, or somewhere between those two.
QUOTE
EDIT: Alternately, I'm viewing cost in the context of the world of Shadowrun, and it seems you're coming at it from a purely mechanics standpoint. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to be implying I know exactly how you're thinking)

Correct. Mechanics is the only thing relevant when discussing balance issues. When discussing what can/should/is available as an option, you look at Fluff. When discussing how to balance those options so they are not over/under powered, you look at Crunch, & only Crunch. This is a mistake the developers made with various things, particularly the metavariants & other racial options - they mixed the two, creating some races that are clearly more powerful than other options.
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HappyDaze
post Sep 6 2008, 06:04 AM
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When using the Karma Creation System, does the limitation on how much you can spend on Attributes include the Special Attributes (Edge, Magic, and Resonance)? If not - or when making a character without Magic or Resonance - I've never really seen a problem nearly maxing-out most Attributes with 375 Karma. However, if it does include Magic and Resonance, characters with one of those Attributes have some built-in limiters compared to straight mundanes, but it's still not likely to be much of a problem at a total of 750 Karma.
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Mäx
post Sep 6 2008, 06:11 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 6 2008, 08:49 AM) *
No, I am viewing the costs needed to get a numerical value, be it maximum, minimum, or somewhere between those two.

Correct. Mechanics is the only thing relevant when discussing balance issues. When discussing what can/should/is available as an option, you look at Fluff. When discussing how to balance those options so they are not over/under powered, you look at Crunch, & only Crunch. This is a mistake the developers made with various things, particularly the metavariants & other racial options - they mixed the two, creating some races that are clearly more powerful than other options.

I just don't get this obsession with exact mechanical balance, this is not a pvp MMORPG.
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ElFenrir
post Sep 6 2008, 09:46 AM
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Yeah, you're never going to *get* exact mechanical balance, and IMO, trying to get a perfect balance can just mess things up more.

Priority, for all intents and purposes, has always favored humans; and from what I can tell with the new priority system, it still does. Does that stop people from playing metas under it, even meta magicians(which, under priority, really is like shooting yourself in the foot)? Nope. People play what they want. But it DOES favor humans. Why aren't people miffed that this favors humans, and not metas? It also heavily favors maxing...not because of the cost as much as BP, but because you don't have to pay any extras to do it, and you're pool is rather limited, and the cost is 1 for 1, so you end up with the similar problem as before(do I use these 2 points to get my 6, which will cost more to get than getting 2 1's or a 2?) Of course, metas are favored by having to give up a priority, and a fairly high one at that. They don't really get to take advantages to their bonuses...if they want to have any skills or money.

BP? Yeah. It closes the rift between humans and metas a bit more than the priority/karma; but it comes with it's own problems, that have been mentioned several times. It DOES still favor some builds effectively, and I find that Orks and Dwarves make out pretty damned sweet under this system(again, I see people falling into the ''make it an ork or dwarf'' trap FAR more here than Karma.)

Karma? Yeah, it does tip toward metas-but it also leads toward much more balanced, realistic characters. Again, we like the 750 Karma, but it's easy enough to houserule down for other people's games.

So each system has it's favoring, it's good points, and it's bad points, as has been discussed. People have tried to fix the BP system several times, but why doesn't anyone try to take away the human favoritism from Priority, since people are upset that Metas are favored in Karmagen?

At the same time, though...I mean, like i said, whatever makes your game more fun. If charging for metas helps your game, by all means, do it. I'm just usually skeptical of doing things until I see it in practice, several times, to make sure it's not going to tip the scales and favor humans instead. I also understand it's not karmagen that folks have a problem with(in fact, most seem to favor it over BP), but the fact Metas have balance issues. Now, if there were a way to close the gap in the karma difference to, say, 15-20 as mentioned, it might be something. (I did a build with all five types-Trolls had the biggest karma difference, followed by Orks, with Dwarves being 21 Karma to the Human build, and Elves 15 Karma.). But, I mean, since I tend to play humans anyway(as do many of us), and play metas for certain concepts, it's really all good either way. it's not like I'm jealous of the full-on meta players.

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Rasumichin
post Sep 6 2008, 11:08 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 5 2008, 05:42 AM) *
Rasumichin, I have covered this before in the other thread. The increasing costs are not a disadvantage when compared to Humans. The various metatypes all are significantly more efficient options than Humans, under Karma Generation RAW.

The final value of an Attribute, not the number it was increased by, is what is of importance for game balance.


Which is exactly my point : the final value of a metahuman's increased attribute is, under karma generation, likely to be lower than under BP generation, due to the non-linear cost.

It is more likely that a human and metahuman will have the same DP under karmagen.
This is not enough to balance out the mechanical advantage of metahumans, but in actual gameplay, it has less consequences than the minmaxing encouraged by BP gen.

QUOTE
With Karma Generation RAW, the only reason to ever play a Human, from a Mechanical standpoint, is to achieve Edge 7 or Edge 8, either of which one of the metatypes can match in at least one other Attribute, for less cost.


What exactly was the mechanical reason for playing a human when generating characters with 400BP?
Oh, yes, high Edge.

Even before karmagen, no one would have ever had the idea to use a human for any theoretical optimization build except for Mr. Lucky.

Since SR4 came out, the one and only reason to play humans was style.
You can rant about karmagen as much as you want, i see your point there, but please don't tell anybody that BPgen is in any way balanced.
It just isn't.

QUOTE
To prove this, I give you the same challenge I gave Ancient History (which was declined).
You may create any Human character you wish, using Karma Generation RAW, excepting Human-Only options such as Vampires. You may, however, increase Edge to 7 or 8, if you choose.

I will then create an Elf, Ork, Dwarf, or Troll (my choice), using the same starting Karma & restrictions that you used, that will first match your characters Dice Pools exactly, and then exceed at minimum one of your Dice Pools.


I'll decline that challenge as well, not only because i just don't care enough, but also because i never disagreed on that issue with you.
I never denied that humans are still at a disadvantage, the math is obvious enough to see that.


QUOTE
Once again, under Karma Generation RAW, Metatypes are always superior to Humans. This is not true in the Build Point system, because there they have to pay for their advantages, the same as any other character (Human or otherwise).


Except for elfs, any metatype under BPgen receives advantages higher than the cost for his metatype and as in karmagen, they wouldn't even have to make use of the additional advantage to raise their attributes above human maximum to be mechanically superior to humans.
Sometimes, they may even be a good choice if the attributes they get a bonus to will be your character's dumpstats.
Does this sound familiar?


Of course they will make use of their advantage.
An elven shaman under BPgen will always have a CHA of at least 7, a troll sam an unmodified BOD of at least 9.
And they're not charged points for that, they pay merely for having their base attributes increased, and in the case of the troll, even that isn't the case.

Under karmagen, they are much less likely to have CHA7 or BOD9, which was all i was trying to say : when we're discussing characters intended for actual gameplay, the human's disadvantage under karmagen is at least less glaring.
If that isn't enough for you, fine, go ahead, houserule it.
If it works, i may try it out some day, but by now, i'll first try out some more how RAW works, then see if it actually needs fixing that much.


QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 5 2008, 05:48 AM) *
Rasumichin:
I disagree... I pointed out that the sheer amount of karma saved by those 'cheap' starting stats was enough to raise a magic stat to 5 by itself in another thread. So you're telling me that for two chars w/ identical statbars.. the fact that the meta had to pay less then the human to get it is balanced?


Actually i didn't try to tell you that.
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Ryu
post Sep 6 2008, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 6 2008, 05:50 AM) *
I have never claimed it was not; the RAW Build Point costs for most species are flawed, either being to expensive or to cheap. They are, however, superior to Karma Generation. Using Build Points, you pay for your racial advantages, even if the cost is fucked up. In Karma, you get those advantages with no cost whatsoever.


A 5% gain for orks under both systems, the same racial minimums under both systems. Racial cost under the BP system is mostly an illusion.
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Jhaiisiin
post Sep 6 2008, 03:15 PM
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If you want perfect mechanical balance, get rid of metas altogether and make everyone humans. Or else make metas pay for every single benefit. The latter is a nightmare to set evidenced by my attempt at it for the BP system.
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TheOOB
post Sep 18 2008, 04:39 AM
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The fact is, by choosing a metatype you are gaining quite a bit for no penalty, for example, when you choose an elf you are gaining 1 agility, 2 charisma, and low-light vision at no charge. You also gain something for nothing for being a human(+1 edge), but not nearly as much as by playing another metatype. The whole reduced cost to hit racial maximums is BS, a human and a troll with 6 body both resist damage the same, but the troll paid less for it and has the option to increase it further. This gets progressively worse as you find more expensive race options (drakes, AIs, free spirits) who need some cost to balance them.

Now I don't mind the idea that some races are better at certain things things, a human should have to spend a lot more resources to get to be a good melee fighter then a troll, but a troll simply gains too much over a human to be completely free. My solution is simple, just apply the normal BP costs of the metatypes as karma costs in the karma creation system. This still results in a net karma increase for every metatype save elves(who I'd bump down to a 25 cost (maybe even a 20), still not an increase(or much of them), but they'll just have to make do with having higher maxes in two attributes that no one else has bonuses too.) Being an ork or troll is still a more effective way to be a bruiser then a human, but it gives some mechanical justification for humans to exist. Playing a human gives you the most karma to play around with. Sure a troll will only take a small fraction of that karma(a very good price for their benefits) but it takes away that little bit of versitility.
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toturi
post Sep 18 2008, 09:31 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 5 2008, 12:42 PM) *
With Karma Generation RAW, the only reason to ever play a Human, from a Mechanical standpoint, is to achieve Edge 7 or Edge 8, either of which one of the metatypes can match in at least one other Attribute, for less cost.

To prove this, I give you the same challenge I gave Ancient History (which was declined).
You may create any Human character you wish, using Karma Generation RAW, excepting Human-Only options such as Vampires. You may, however, increase Edge to 7 or 8, if you choose.

I will then create an Elf, Ork, Dwarf, or Troll (my choice), using the same starting Karma & restrictions that you used, that will first match your characters Dice Pools exactly, and then exceed at minimum one of your Dice Pools. Should you increase Edge to 7, I will then increase one of my character's Attributes from 6 to 7 to compensate. If you increase your Edge to 8, I will do the same with one of my character's Attributes to compensate (and I will then have an even further Karma advantage over you by 40 points).

This challenge is not fair. By buying Human, you are also buying into the options that are available to Humans. Therefore Human only options should also be available. By limiting Human only options you are in fact dictating a build favorable to your argument. You are further limiting your terms of comparison to Dice Pools only. This is again a biased comparison. You are skewing your challenge in favor of your assertion, when perhapst, it is only when you impose the limitations in your challenge that karmagen would come out ahead of BP gen.

In fact I propose another challenge instead. Create a racial Human BP gen character that will cost more than 750 karma to recreate. All RAW no holds barred.
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darthmord
post Sep 19 2008, 02:47 PM
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If racial costs are such an issue, why not just normalize the costs such that each race costs the same (0) by granting Humans a few extras (perhaps extra karma points) and a few other adjustments. That way, each race start off with the same point value mechanically, but in fluff the mechanical differences are explained.
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Falconer
post Sep 19 2008, 03:37 PM
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Darthmord:
Read all the historical threads and do a search... people were talking about this for a long time including your 'trivial' normalizing the cost. You'll find it's not quite so trivial. And isn't the point of the racial cost in the first place to 'normalize' the costs!

Totori:
I think there's a fair amount of support for the statement that 750karma characters are far stronger than 400BP ones already. It's like you saying, I challenge you to produce 150000 yen w/ $1000 when the exchange ratio is only ~110:1. So I'm going to call a polite BS on that one. You're asking for an apples to oranges comparison, then piling on extra oranges.

This is largely because under BP... raising those extreme meta stats is linear, while it becomes geometric under karma. So those chars needed more karma to max out those stats. So it became necessary to 'subsidize' metas under karmagen by giving more karma.

IMO: this results in another big problem... humans just run into caps far sooner than metas. As long as you're dealing w/ caps of attribute + skill + misc. The last two are fixed for everybody, so the only line of further advance is the attribute. Then when you deal w/ the defaulting rules, it's almost always preferable to have 1 rank in an attribute over 1 rank in a skill (especially if you can only buy 1 rank in the skill). Even if you turned around and said, okay all humans can get 7 or even 8 ranks in any skill instead of being capped at 6 (which would normalize the absolute advantage enjoyed by metas), then you run into the problem that it costs more for aggregate skills than attributes.

When it costs more to advance a skill group than the attribute in terms of karma, I think that highlights part of the problem. When it costs more to advance 2 individual skills than to advance the underlying attribute. I think you see why people put so much emphasis on the attributes, because attributes are your biggest bang for the buck investment.
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darthmord
post Sep 19 2008, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 19 2008, 11:37 AM) *
Darthmord:
Read all the historical threads and do a search... people were talking about this for a long time including your 'trivial' normalizing the cost. You'll find it's not quite so trivial. And isn't the point of the racial cost in the first place to 'normalize' the costs!


You might want to re-read what I posted. Not once did I mention normalizing as being trivial.

Yes, the racial BP costs are ostensibly (IMO) there to help normalize the benefits of metahumanity against the lack of cost when choosing Human. Basically, they exist to help counter the benefits one derives from playing meta rather than human such that a player doesn't feel cheated for choosing the wrong race.

No such mechanic exists for Karma-gen. All racial costs are 0. Hence the reason I suggested folks normalize the costs for races for karma-gen (and perhaps BP if one was so inclined). I never talked about the difficulty or level of effort required.
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toturi
post Sep 19 2008, 11:49 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 19 2008, 11:37 PM) *
Totori:
I think there's a fair amount of support for the statement that 750karma characters are far stronger than 400BP ones already. It's like you saying, I challenge you to produce 150000 yen w/ $1000 when the exchange ratio is only ~110:1. So I'm going to call a polite BS on that one. You're asking for an apples to oranges comparison, then piling on extra oranges.

This is largely because under BP... raising those extreme meta stats is linear, while it becomes geometric under karma. So those chars needed more karma to max out those stats. So it became necessary to 'subsidize' metas under karmagen by giving more karma.

Are you so sure it can't be done? Make a 400 BP PC that cannot be cloned with 750 karma?
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Glyph
post Sep 20 2008, 02:26 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 19 2008, 04:49 PM) *
Are you so sure it can't be done? Make a 400 BP PC that cannot be cloned with 750 karma?

It's technically possible, although whether it would be a useful build is another question. You are getting almost twice as much Karma as Build Points, and while some things cost less BP than Karma, they don't quite reach that same two for one ratio, except for Qualities, Contacts, and Resources, which are basically 2 Karma = 1 BP (I don't have RC, but from builds posted here, I think that's accurate). So if you spent nothing on Attributes (starting with 1 in them all), got one skill of 6 and one skill of 4 for 40 BP, spent 50 BP on resources, 35 BP on positive Qualities, and 275 points on Contacts, it would cost 66 + 100 + 70 + 550 = 786 Karma. Well, a bit more, let's not forget the 6 points of free knowledge skills that a Karma build would need to spend on. So one Knowledge skill of 6 to tack on 22 more, for 798 Karma.

I guess one of the qualities could be the one that lets you start with more money, and you could move some from contacts to resources, and you could get the quality that lets you get higher-rated gear. A suprathyroid gland, some muscle augmentation and toner, a cerebral booster, tailored pheromones - nah, he would still suck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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