I just picked up Runner's Companion and was really pleased to see Karma based character gen in it, I've often played with 3rd party Karmagen rules in the earlier editions and I was happy to see it "officially" this time around.
However, when I tried to make a character I was struck by how odd the math was...

So looking at the totals: 400 BP = 750 Karma or 1 BP = 1.875 Karma

Looking at flat costed stuff like nuyen or qualities, 1BP = 2 Karma, this seems to make sense a tiny rounding difference is small price to pay not to have to get out my calculator to buy gear.

But looking at attributes:
Buying an Attribute up costs 10 BP per level, 40 BP for Strength 5 for example

Buying an Attribute up costs New level * 3 karma, 42 karma for Strength 5
(Start at 1, 6k for 2, 9k for 3, 12k for 4, 15k for 5)

Which is 1BP = 1.05 Karma

I picked 5 because it is the highest ratio of Karma to BP, for attribute values 2-4 it costs less karma than BP and I wasn't certain if you were still supposed to pay a 'tax' for maxing an attribute.




So, did I miss some errata? Like if attributes were New Value * 5 it would be closer to working out.
If not, and that is how it's intended, has anyone run a game with Karamgen? How does the favoring of attributes (and to a lesser extent skills) over Qualities, nuyen and contacts effect the game?

Serbitar has already addressed some of these problems. Heres the link;

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=12797

KarmaGen is awesome, but 750 Karma =/= 400 BP...
The most twinked out character I've made with 400BP was worth only 749 Karma in KarmaGen, with most being between 550 and 600...

Wow those house rules from Serbitar are great!

Thats the way I feel as well plus they make trolls more playable

There simply is no fixed ratio between BP and karma.

Both systems have entirely different implications.

BP gen favours softmaxing, dumpstats, loading up on bound foci or CF and avoiding skill specialization.
It will lead to highly specialized characters and, by 400BP RAW, will force you to neglect other areas for that due to point scarcity.
BP gen challenges you as a minmaxer, as it takes careful planning and ressource realignment to come up with a viable build.

RC Karmagen favours a broad skillset, slightly above-average attributes through the board, punishes extremely high attribute values and is really kind to you if you are a troll with attributes slightly above the average human.
By 750k RAW, points are available in abundance, the limiting factors typically being the hardcaps on spells, ressources, skill levels and qualities.
This, combined with the fact that attributes above 4 are so expensive, usually leads to a very broad set of skills between 1 and 4, with a greater incentive to puchase specializations (as they won't be cheaper once the game has started).
It will lead to well-rounded, versatile characters who are either obscenely powerful or can blow ridiculous amounts of points to simply flesh out the character with flavour skills.

Generally speaking, 600 Karma will make you a character closer to what you can do with BP. But if you're a troll (or sasquatch, or dzoo-noo-qua, etc.) trying to max out Strength or Body, things can get a tight.

That's part of the good part of a karma gen system ( I know, I'm preaching to the choir, or in AH's case, the reverend here). You can't take one part of the karma gen system and say it's broken because it doesn't create an identical character. 600 Karma will let you build a character that will play SR at a level most people are used to with a normal amount of BPs. The difference is that it encourages a more ballanced approach to character generation. There is no longer any reason to min/max in char gen because the cost is the same before and after character creation. Thus you end up with more but lower level skills, fewer sixes and ones in character attributes, and characters that look more like real characters as opposed to an excel experiment.

I mean, yeah, 750 Karma, as it's been said, does end up with character a bit over 400. BUT...again, I have seen 400 BP characters more twinked/broken/Unbalancing than 750 BP characters. It goes back to those flavor skills. Hell, Ive seen 500 BP characters far more twinked than the 750 Karma(500 BP seems, by the consensus, to be SORT of equal to 750 Karma...but then again, a ''well twinked'' 400 BP character can scrape 650 karma alone. Yeah, it's hard to really compare it.)

Those flavor skills people end up with are great. I mentioned in another thread-when me and my group buddy remade a bunch of our characters, they really didn't grow up, as much as out. This is basically what happened:

Better natural attribute base. This does increase DPs a bit, but usually only 1-2. Not bad.
A few skills do get increases; usually secondary, and usually only a point or two.
The biggest difference is the flavor active skills, and lots of knowledge and language skills. It's not uncommon at least a good 100 Karma goes into all of these, if not more.
More evenly matched positive and negative qualities; less negative qualities overall.

As Skip said...yeah, characters that look more like characters. I mean, I try not to be an ubertwink when I play, and neither does our table-but we do find ourselves much more in twink mode under the BP system.

I have to agree w/ the other posters... I LOVE how karmagen gets rid of the differences between advancement and chargen costs. I hate how BP really encourages extreme min/maxing topping of stats and skills so you don't pay the extra karma, then round out the character in play w/ karma.

The problem. Metatype is the elephant in the room... it's absolutely broken once you add metatypes and eliminate the price incentive to pick a human over anything. And while I agree it's a huge problem to address... the problem is metatypes aren't paying more for larger dicepools... a maxed elf and a maxed human gunbunny... the elf always has the advantage because of his higher natural agility and freebie stats and abilities. That is my only criticism of karmagen.

I've been working on an idea which I've been debating posting. The rough idea is it always costs 60karma to take a stat from 1 to max. (EG: 60karma to run the troll from 1BOD to 10BOD, same 60karma to raise the trolls charisma from 1 to 4 though... this makes metas more a collection of changed attribute maximums but you're still paying for your final rank).

Might as well post my Karma generation rules here. They are not entirely completed, and still undergoing minor changes. Anyone that decides to use them is welcome to give me feedback, as I have not had a chance to really try them out yet. Please note that while they should be entirely compatible with RAW everything else, they are intended to function with other alterations to the system, particularly adjustments to how Technomancer's work, which I have included here, & adjustments to Metatype/Race costs, which I have not yet finalized.

I will be posting a full version of my suggested House Rules once I have them completed. At this time, however, I do not know when that will happen.

The format used is identical to the presentation in Runners Companion; the rules, however, have undergone changes in multiple areas.


Karma Character Generation


Technomancers



EDIT: I made changes to the Karma cost for advancing Attributes, and did not realize the changes where not included in the above. I have included them in brackets in the Purchase Attributes section.

Further, if anyone has questions on why I have made any of the above changes, feel free to ask here. If anyone believes one of the changes is a mistake, or has a suggestion, please post it here, along with an explanation of why it was a mistake, or the reasoning behind the suggestion.

I'd personally start by giving a Karma cost for racial powers (which is pretty easy for most of the new racial options since there's already a BP cost associated with them), calculate how much their base attributes above 1 cost, add those values together, subtract 6 (since Humans get to start with Edge 2) and tag the total as the metatype cost. I'd then see how that compares to other methods and what kind of characters you end up with. If the prices were too high, my next step would be to look at lowering the costs for metatypes with restricted attribute ratings. And then I'd just go from there.

For example, an Ork would initially cost 41 Karma (42 points for Body 4 and Strength 3, 5 points for Low-Light Vision, and -6 to keep Humans at 0 cost). If that seemed to high, I'd lower it to 29 Karma (-6 points for a lower max Charisma and another -6 points for Logic). If that still seemed too high, I'd keep tinkering til I found something workable.

If you want the perks for going over the human norms, you pay the price for them. That's what makes it fair and, more importantly, keeps Humans as a very viable choice from a mechanical point of view. They certainly don't deserve bonus Karma via no cost simply for permission to go over those norms. At least not in my opinion.

That said, I really hate trolls in the game. They're the single biggest reason that so many character creation methods are screwed up, as they have to allow the absurd attributes trolls are granted. If you removed them completely from the game, it'd be a lot easier to fix things. The addition of AIs and Free Spirits certainly add to that. But such is life.

Actually it is not as problematic as it sounds once you get more acquainted with building efficient characters with the karma system.
The increasing costs for high stats are really a huge disincentive.

As i posted earlier in another thread, when rebuilding a human caster with 750karma, i discovered that he is actually less disadvantaged under the karma system when you compare him to elfs or dwarfs.

The linear costs for attributes meant that it was a no-brainer for those to softmax their drain stats.
Under karmagen, bringing your attributes above 6 is something you really consider carefully as it is prohibitively expensive from the start and you don't save any karma as well.

This means that having a higher possible max DP is less advantageous as before.
The benefits are the same, but the associated costs have increased.

What does look tempting about certain metatypes upon closer examination are their starting values.
But this is less of an issue, as they'll be usually set at a level where buying an attribute up is still cheap (unless you're a troll/bear shapeshifter).


Like with BPgen, there are specific exploits, albeit different ones, of course.
But in many cases, human characters will not be punished as severely.

I don't think we'll see less humans, but certainly less trolls who put any points in Strenght or have above-average Body for their metatype.
And more trolls who have stats like a strong human.

Rasumichin, I have covered this before in the other thread. The increasing costs are not a disadvantage when compared to Humans. The various metatypes all are significantly more efficient options than Humans, under Karma Generation RAW.

The final value of an Attribute, not the number it was increased by, is what is of importance for game balance. Body 5 is, mechanically, the same as Body 5, regardless of if it is on a Troll or a Human, and mechanically is what matters.

For no cost, an Elf has a minimum of 3 Charisma vs. a Human's 1. The Elf pays less for a 6 Charisma than a Human. The Elf has the option of achieving an 8 Charisma - the Human does not.

With Karma Generation RAW, the only reason to ever play a Human, from a Mechanical standpoint, is to achieve Edge 7 or Edge 8, either of which one of the metatypes can match in at least one other Attribute, for less cost.


To prove this, I give you the same challenge I gave Ancient History (which was declined).
You may create any Human character you wish, using Karma Generation RAW, excepting Human-Only options such as Vampires. You may, however, increase Edge to 7 or 8, if you choose.

I will then create an Elf, Ork, Dwarf, or Troll (my choice), using the same starting Karma & restrictions that you used, that will first match your characters Dice Pools exactly, and then exceed at minimum one of your Dice Pools. Should you increase Edge to 7, I will then increase one of my character's Attributes from 6 to 7 to compensate. If you increase your Edge to 8, I will do the same with one of my character's Attributes to compensate (and I will then have an even further Karma advantage over you by 40 points).

Once again, under Karma Generation RAW, Metatypes are always superior to Humans. This is not true in the Build Point system, because there they have to pay for their advantages, the same as any other character (Human or otherwise). I am not saying the costs for Metatypes under Build Points are balanced, but they are significantly closer to it than under Karma.

Rasumichin:
I disagree... I pointed out that the sheer amount of karma saved by those 'cheap' starting stats was enough to raise a magic stat to 5 by itself in another thread. So you're telling me that for two chars w/ identical statbars.. the fact that the meta had to pay less then the human to get it is balanced? Another way of looking at it was it was enough to raise an entire skill group to 4 and change. That's a big advantage.

The problem is the cost penalty only comes in when you try and raise over the human maxes, there's no base cost for the 'head start' or a penalty cost for the attributes which they're supposed to be penalized in. EG: it's 15 karma for troll, orc, whatnot to take cha from 1->3 (3 being quite passable IMO for any non-face in the game). The same thing which makes it cheap for humans to raise stats, makes it rediculously cheap for non-human dump stats to be raised to adequate.

Musp:
I didn't ask in PM when you were going over the rough and I missed it again. But do you have the penalized attributes forced to buy up to a minimum of 1? EG: troll needs to buy at least 2 points of cha before anything else to bring him up to 1. Or is that just to go from 1->2 is paid for the same as going from 3->4.

I am not charging for bringing an Attribute up to 1 if it is penalized; 1 is the minimum an Attribute may ever be naturally. One way to think of it is the cost for raising a Troll's Charisma from -1 to 1 is included in the Metatype cost.

If you can think of a way to phrase it so it becomes clear on the first reading, let me know. I believe I have done a good job myself, but obviously there is possible confusion, as you had to ask.


EDIT: I just realized I missed a bit of information in my House Rules post. I have edited it to include the previously missing information.

Alright, I'm game, I'll give this a try, more because I'm currious, then because I think you can't do it, I'm sort of wondering how you'd manage to do so with this character, who I've been wondering a bit about for a while now. I put Karma Cost inside [] for ease of referance

Karma: 750
Metatype:Human

Attributes: Body: 5 [42], Agility 5(7) [42], Reaction 5 [42], Strength 2 [6], Charisma 5 [42], Intuition 5 [42], Logic 8(10) [105], Willpower 5 [42], Edge 6 [54], Initiative: 10, Magic 5 [52], Essence 5.2

Skills: Arcana 2 [8], Assessing 2 [8], Skill: Astral Combat 2[8], Skill: Counterspelling 4[22], Ritual Spellcasting 3 [14], Spellcasting (Combat) 6( [46], Conjuring 2 [20], Blades(Swords) 2(4)[10], Dodge 2 [8], Pistols(Heavy) 2(4) [10], Magic Background 3 [7], Magic Theory 4 [11], Spirits: 2 [4], Knowledge: Astral Research 2 [4], Safe Houses 1 [2]

Qualities: Magican [30], Exceptional Attribute: Logic [40], Gremlins 2 [-20], Sensitive System [-30], Spirit Bane - Task Spirits [-20]

Spells [60]: Stunbolt, Stunball, Powerbolt, Powerball, Lightning Bolt, Ball Lightning, Mind Probe, Heal, Increase Reflexes, Improved Invisibility, Armor, Levitate

Bound Spirits: Fire Spirit with 2 Services [4]

Focus: Weapon Focus 2 [8]

Contacts: Talismonger: Connections 2, Loyalty 4 [12], Mr. Johnson: 5 Connections, Loyalty 2 [14]

Resources [51]: 125,000

Genetic Optimization-Logic 45000
Cerebral Boosters 2 20000
Muscle Toner 2 16000
High Lifestyle - 1 month 10000
Magicial Logic Level 6 3000
Fake SIN - 5 5000
Commlink: Novatech Airware 1250
SOS: Iris Orb 1000
Contacts w/LL & VM 450
Fake SIN - 3 3000
Are Viper Silvergun 500
5 Regular Clips 100
5 Fleshette Clip 500
Armored Vest 600
Weapon Focus 2: Katana 20000
Lined Coat 700
Fake Lisence 3 300
Clothing 100

I recently made three characters(not as much a test, but more because I was inspired, but they are all fully viable PCs/NPCs and I had a cool backstory idea), one an Elf Changeling dude, one a Fomori Hacker/Tech Guy, one a Human Mage lady. All of them pretty much equalled out their positive and negative qualities.

Attribute-wise, the Elf spent and I'd say ended up with the best spread(5/5/4/5/5/4/4/4/edge 3.) This was 270 Karma. Didn't max anything.

Mr. Fomori(who does come with an inate Arcane Arrester, ill give you that, trading the dermal deposits, but that Arcane Arrester is pretty good), spent a bit more on his attributes, ending up with the spread of 7/4/4/7/4/4/4/5 with a 4 edge, for 282 Karma. He also maxed Charisma in the process.

Ms. Mage spent the least on basic attributes; but +60 for her Magic. She spent 225 on her basic attribute spread and edge, and ended up with 3/4/3/2/5/4/5/5 with a 3 Edge. Nothing maxed(save the mentioned magic).

I guess it's how you look at things. Now, in the human's case, her attributes aren't all that(I needed a lot of skill points for her), but she has the best natural Mental spread of the bunch. The Fomori and the Elf have similar, very solid spreads.

But it's not as much as a comparison of metas, it's metas and humans. Our mage down there might not be the mightiest of arm, but she's got the best Mental Attributes, overall, of the bunch, a spread that's still solid for what she needs to do(a 2 isn't bad), and spent a full 65 Karma less to get it next to the elf, and 77 Karma less than the Fomori.


Really, none of these attribute spreads are, IMO, obviously ''super better'' than the other. They each fill a role, the role that they are needed. The elf changeling is the team muscle/on site tech, and has the stats for it; and he's got room to grow. The fomori is a hacker, but can use some weapons with some skill and also go on-site without too much trouble. The mage is a hell of a spellcaster(6 magic with all of that), and has enough Agility to utilize her stun baton and handguns on top of it. But the fact the human could fill her role for 65 Karma less, IMO, says a bit of something. Even bringing her Magic to 6, she STILL fills her role with 5 less BP than the others, who didn't have to buy a Magic attribute. Each of them can fill three roles: all three can face, the Fomori has hacker skills and backup combat, the Mage her offensive, defensive, and utility casting as well as enough Agility to be a good backup firearms girl, and the Elf the tech/combat.

As I said, the human spent less to get her role, so to speak. I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Raw numbers-wise, the Fomori seems to be on top with his spread; but again, he had to max an attribute to do it. Is it raw numbers that matter, or how much they have to spend to fufill their roles? Again, all three can preform three roles very well.

Now, what if every race had straight 5's out of the box(Edge included?) Let's see the cost:


Human, 5's: 372.
Elf, straight 5: 357.
Troll, straight 5s: Impossible in chargen, since you can only max 1 attribute. So we'll max Agility out, and leave the rest to 1 less, and it costs 237.
Ork: Also impossible in chargen, but we'll max out Charisma as the attribute of choice. 321.
Dwarf: 351.

Ok, so this is to get a 5 in everything at the start(if possible). Yes, Trolls and Orks cost less; Elves and Dwarves are closer to human(and are actually able to get all attributes to 5 as well.) But your cheaper Trolls and Orks are indeed more ''gimped'' for their race, saving these. Yes, starting with 5's is pretty powerful, hence the cost.

Again, the Karma, as written, with 750, works just fine for us, so we're keeping it. YMMV, naturally. All tables are different.

But IMO, I guess it's how you look at it. See, I'm looking at it from the angle of-it costs quite a bit more to increase a Troll's attributes to the point where he's at least average for his race. His maxes are lower as well, for many other attributes. If you want a human with exceptional body for his race, it's 42 Karma for a 5. If you want a Troll with exceptional body for his race, it's 90 Karma to get a 9. Is a 9 higher than a 5? Yes. Should a 9 cost more than a 5? Yes, and it does. Should a troll be hosed because the player wants to play someone that's actually really tough? No. Can you play a troll or ork that's a bit gimpy for their own race, for less than a human? Sure. But an ''all exceptional humans and metahumans'' (as in, every stat up to 1 under the max), the costs are about the same; humans end up with higher spreads overall(ok, elves and dwarves, too), troll's beefier physical stats are offset by the lower mental stats(and troll Agility is lower, the Big combat stat.)

The thing is, too many tweaks can also make metas no longer that appealing, and you end up with SR2 syndrome where they were easily hosed.

Again, this whole thing could stem from me being blessed with an awesome table. We play the race we see with our characters, regardless of costs, and game balance was never an issue. The first rule of anything is ''is this rule fun at our table? Is everyone happy? If so, nothing needs to be changed.'' Fun before anything, IMO, including balance. If a rule is a bit unbalanced but not ruining anyone's fun, or even more, adding to it...then I think it's better to leave it be.

But, I mean, perhaps this Meta-thing happening is ruining fun at someone else's table...in which case, I can understand wanting to change it. We have a list of house rules that make the game more fun for us. If making metas more expensive or whatnot makes the game more fun, then by all means, do it. I'm not saying anyone's wrong for wanting to. But I guess, because i never had to deal with a table that picked ''the race with the most pluses'' all the time, I just have trouble grasping where it's THAT unbalancing. I DO admit it can skew toward metas, yes. I'm not denying that. But I just don't see how it's gamebreaking unless the players indeed always just pick the race with the most pluses, so to speak. So again, it's not as much as ''you're all wrong for wanting to change it!'' it's ''I can understand wanting to change something that makes the game unfun, but since it's never affected us, I have trouble grasping why.'' If that makes sense.

Honestly, play it before trying any changes.

I've played Karma-gen games and rarely find them unbalanced. If anything I think you'll find less people playing trolls in a Karma-gen system.

Without doing a lot of math, just think about it, under which method are trolls unbalanced? With BP or priorities you are looking at max bod and max-1 strength trolls every time. To play one at anything less is to inflict a high future cost to yourself, as the karma needed to raise either is so high it would easily pay for all the other skills or attributes you want. All you need to do is keep one alive through the first few runs and he's a monster.

With Karma-gen, you are looking at a much lower starting Bod and Strength levels. Yes, he spends less karma to get there than a human, but he is also more limited in the non-physical attributes and skill levels, he pays 15% more for everything, he is constantly discriminated against, and every eye is on him in most places over a middle lifestyle.

You used 790 Karma.

This should be Magic 5 [42]. I am guessing it is a typo. Unless of course you intended it to be 5 after Essence loss, in which case it should be [60], and your character used 808 Karma.

As an Elf, the Attributes cost 15 less Karma for the same scores. Everything else can simply be copied. That 15 Karma can go into whatever you would like, but because I am feeling like randomness, let's put it into 3 ranks of Electronic Warfare, and a Spirits (Toxic) specialization.

New Attribute Costs (Elf):

End result; as an Elf, you have identical capabilities as the Human, plus an additional Rating 3 Skill, Knowledge specialization, natural Low-Light Vision, & a higher maximum on Charisma (higher Agility maximum cancels out higher Edge maximum).

Elves are, under Karma Generation, the least powerful Metatype next to Humans, but because of starting limits on Attributes, the only one I could duplicate your build with.

Nope, that should be 42 for magic, my appologies, as to the Karma issue, hmm.. must have been 40 Karma over, wonder where I managed that, maybe I did something wrong on the spreadsheet, or missed something, I thought I had the formula right.. ah well, next time, as a comparison it still works.

And, on another level, I sort of suspected you'd have to go with elf on that, to really match his ablities, in a way, I sort of hand cuffed you into it, though if I had been you, I'd have put those extra 15 karma to a focus of some kind, or more points in knowledges, it works fine.

It does mean, however, that you can only match his dice pools, and can't exceed them, sense it costs more karma to raise charisma over 6, or agility over 5 then you have, though you can create a new dice pool that he didn't really have. So this character is somewhat harder to match or exceed then the others. I admit, a less focused character with somewhat lower attributes is easier to exceed, for example, if I had made them a physical adept, and focused on a different attribute then logic, you could have done much better, say with one of the other metatypes.

If I was actually creating this character as a elf, I'd have done him differently, such as putting another point or two in charisma or quickness, and a few less points elsewhere, like a edge of 5, instead of 6. Btw, I did, for a moment, concider raising edge to seven, be then decided to leave it so that you could match it.

Technically, I did exceed your Dice Pool in Electronic Warfare, but if you want, I can do the same with skills you will actually use.

Up Ritual Spellcasting to 4, and Dodge (or Pistols, Arcana, Assessing, or Blades) to 3. Or increase your Conjuring Group to 3. Or hand out multiple specializations.

& if you had raised Edge to 7, I would have been 3 Karma away from matching it in Charisma (after taking into account raising it from 5 to 6). Couldn't quite do it, but very close.


EDIT: With an additional 0.2 Essence Loss (acceptable with the above build), I could also match & exceed him as a Dwarf.

On another note, if you intend to actually play this character, I suggest using Class II SURGE (Metagenic Improvement) instead of Exceptional Attribute. You gain 20 Karma of Negative Qualities (many of which are inconsequential), but also free up 26 Karma to use elsewhere, as well as allowing another 20 Karma of Positive Qualities.

I did concider the SURGE idea, actually, but sense you said human, I don't quite concider Surge as human, they've changed to much. Actually, most of the time, when I play characters, I tend toward elves, I simply prefer them, I've played many elves, though I also have a tendacy to play trolls on occations I don't play elves, humans are usually my third choice, and I have played a few, with orcs fourth, and lastly dwaves.. actually, I've never played a dwarf, and only once, that I can recall.. have I made a orc.. whom I never played either, but at least I made one.

As to the Charisma at 7, if you'd have let strength drop to 1, or let one of your skills drop one, you'd have been able to have that seven. Of course, it would also differentate the two characters more. As to the dwarf... hmm...... you might have more free points that way too then as the elf.

With Dwarf, the 18 points saved from Attributes would go into Nuyen to pay for the Genetic Optimization.

The end result would be Strength 3 vs. your 2, Thermographic Vision, +2 vs. Pathogens & Toxins, and 5.0 Essence. Not many changes, but still an improvement.

You know, when speaking of balance Metahuman wise and the like with this, I really have faith the players are going to pick what suits them best. Why? Dwarves are rarely played, and point for point, they are one of the best deals vs. cost you get.

They have a full range of Mental stats, and are the only race that gets a Willpower bonus. They get a Body and Strength bonus. All of this makes them really available to play any class, and they make excellent mages of all types(Elf charisma helps for conjuring, but Dwarves don't get a charisma penalty, and their physical stats help them. Then again, Ive played a tough-as nails elven combat mage before. It can be done, people just don't do it often for some reason.)

All of this, plus the thermographic vision, and bonus dice to resistances, all for the cost of some Reaction and movement rate. IMO, they make out a bit better than elves and the like, yet they are the least played race, by far. This really does lead me to think even under this Karma system and the fact Metas have it a bit easier, people will still, indeed, pick what they want to play.

I have to agree. Just becuase we can min/max till the cows come home doesn't mean we will, most people that play do it to roleplay, be able to get those sper stats is fun but I would rather have a chamce of failure to make the game interesting.

I agree w/ the sentiment... but IMO... there should be no more than say a +-15 karma spread between worst and best racial pick. Picking that number becuase 30karma is 5% of 600, only about 3% of 750. So reasonably w/in a good margin. My only problem is that some metas can end up w/ effectively a 50karma bump, and 50 is a lot of karma (orcs, trolls, and dwarves being the biggest offenders).

So on one side I agree w/ the guys trying to cost everything accurately... even though I think they go a bit too far at times in nitpicking.

I fully agree that people should play what they want, and in most cases, will.

I do not agree that they should be penalized for their choice of race, which is exactly what happens when you choose Human over any other racial option (excluding Templates, such as Infected, which I do not consider a race).

Because of that penalization, the RAW Karma Generation is, put simply, broken. That is the primary reason that I am so opposed to it.

So is the BP system broken for penalizing metas with their racial costs? (esp when it's been proven the stats don't match up to the racial cost?)

Jhaiisiin:
I think it's pretty well documented dwarf, orc, or troll tends to be the best buy in any system (no clue about priority... nobody is using that one). In some ways a good DM can make people regret picking those w/ outright racism, increased costs of living, etc. But most don't. And you get people going out of their ways to say it shouldn't cost more for a troll to eat his daily bread or buy space amounting to a luxury apartment for a smaller race w/o having some kind of cost penalty. And really, when was the last time you saw the short lifespan be a problem (how many orcs w/ canes, cataracts, and arthritis you see wandering around at the ripe old age of *30*). I'm a bladerunner fan, so I tend to refer to that as the 'accelerated decripitude' problem.


IMO, the bigger problem with BP is that encourages a different form of min/maxing... it highly encourages astronomical skills and attributes and barely competent skills and attributes. You want to take advantage of the linear costs in chargen before getting hit with the geometric karma advancement costs in play. You also want to take advantage that it's not double cost for the first rank in a skill under BP unlike karma (and to avoid defaulting). It's cheap to move a dump attribute from 1->2 or 2->3 for a mere 6 or 9 karma... so do you really want to drop 10 or 20 BP into that in chargen? BP really displays this when you get the 9 or 10 body troll or orc out of chargen, where the character isn't paying the sky high karma advancement prices for going from 7->8 and up.

I think the reason I look at karmagen as the best system to try and 'fix' is because it unifies in-game and chargen costs. We also have it from ancient history that they include 'racial commonality' as a cost mod. So just because the race is common it gets free stat points and skills? (I give the guy props for coming out and posting on here on the subject as well, even if I do disagree with him).

There's also the issue that the system encourages maxing the stat, before sinking more points into individual skills, so having races w/ higher attribute caps gives more room for growth. So just because it's cheaper for a human to buy his starting stats, he's also going to cap out at 6 attribute + 6 skill much faster.

I have never claimed it was not; the RAW Build Point costs for most species are flawed, either being to expensive or to cheap. They are, however, superior to Karma Generation. Using Build Points, you pay for your racial advantages, even if the cost is fucked up. In Karma, you get those advantages with no cost whatsoever.

I still don't get where you see no cost, given the ultra high costs of increasing attributes to their racial maximums.

Again, I'm not likely to swing over to your side and it's obvious you'll not swing over to my view, so I'm agreeing to disagree.

6 Body is 6 Body, regardless of if it is a Human or Troll. Either way, it gives you 6 dice for all involved tests, allows you to wear up to 12 Armor unencumbered, and gives you a Damage Track of 11 (17 Overflow).

The cost for a Human to reach 6 Body is significantly greater than that of a Troll. Further, the Human does not have the option of increasing it further, without specific exceptions. The Troll does.

Game mechanics & balance does not differentiate between if the Attribute is the maximum for the species, or the minimum. The only thing that matters is the final value, and under Karma generation, non-Human characters achieve that final value at a significantly reduced cost.

Under Build Point generation, the cost for non-Human species may not be at a balanced level, but for most it is close. Yes, an Elf is (base stats) more powerful than a Human. That is why it costs to play one; you pay for your ability increases. Using Karma generation, you receive the same power increase without the associated cost, unbalancing the game.

I think our differing view stem how we're viewing costs.

It seems you view things on a cost to get to human max, and I do it on a cost to get to racial max. *shrug*

EDIT: Alternately, I'm viewing cost in the context of the world of Shadowrun, and it seems you're coming at it from a purely mechanics standpoint. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to be implying I know exactly how you're thinking)

edit: Stupid multi-posting blackberry

edit: and again. Sorry about that.

No, I am viewing the costs needed to get a numerical value, be it maximum, minimum, or somewhere between those two.

Correct. Mechanics is the only thing relevant when discussing balance issues. When discussing what can/should/is available as an option, you look at Fluff. When discussing how to balance those options so they are not over/under powered, you look at Crunch, & only Crunch. This is a mistake the developers made with various things, particularly the metavariants & other racial options - they mixed the two, creating some races that are clearly more powerful than other options.

When using the Karma Creation System, does the limitation on how much you can spend on Attributes include the Special Attributes (Edge, Magic, and Resonance)? If not - or when making a character without Magic or Resonance - I've never really seen a problem nearly maxing-out most Attributes with 375 Karma. However, if it does include Magic and Resonance, characters with one of those Attributes have some built-in limiters compared to straight mundanes, but it's still not likely to be much of a problem at a total of 750 Karma.

I just don't get this obsession with exact mechanical balance, this is not a pvp MMORPG.

Yeah, you're never going to *get* exact mechanical balance, and IMO, trying to get a perfect balance can just mess things up more.

Priority, for all intents and purposes, has always favored humans; and from what I can tell with the new priority system, it still does. Does that stop people from playing metas under it, even meta magicians(which, under priority, really is like shooting yourself in the foot)? Nope. People play what they want. But it DOES favor humans. Why aren't people miffed that this favors humans, and not metas? It also heavily favors maxing...not because of the cost as much as BP, but because you don't have to pay any extras to do it, and you're pool is rather limited, and the cost is 1 for 1, so you end up with the similar problem as before(do I use these 2 points to get my 6, which will cost more to get than getting 2 1's or a 2?) Of course, metas are favored by having to give up a priority, and a fairly high one at that. They don't really get to take advantages to their bonuses...if they want to have any skills or money.

BP? Yeah. It closes the rift between humans and metas a bit more than the priority/karma; but it comes with it's own problems, that have been mentioned several times. It DOES still favor some builds effectively, and I find that Orks and Dwarves make out pretty damned sweet under this system(again, I see people falling into the ''make it an ork or dwarf'' trap FAR more here than Karma.)

Karma? Yeah, it does tip toward metas-but it also leads toward much more balanced, realistic characters. Again, we like the 750 Karma, but it's easy enough to houserule down for other people's games.

So each system has it's favoring, it's good points, and it's bad points, as has been discussed. People have tried to fix the BP system several times, but why doesn't anyone try to take away the human favoritism from Priority, since people are upset that Metas are favored in Karmagen?

At the same time, though...I mean, like i said, whatever makes your game more fun. If charging for metas helps your game, by all means, do it. I'm just usually skeptical of doing things until I see it in practice, several times, to make sure it's not going to tip the scales and favor humans instead. I also understand it's not karmagen that folks have a problem with(in fact, most seem to favor it over BP), but the fact Metas have balance issues. Now, if there were a way to close the gap in the karma difference to, say, 15-20 as mentioned, it might be something. (I did a build with all five types-Trolls had the biggest karma difference, followed by Orks, with Dwarves being 21 Karma to the Human build, and Elves 15 Karma.). But, I mean, since I tend to play humans anyway(as do many of us), and play metas for certain concepts, it's really all good either way. it's not like I'm jealous of the full-on meta players.

Which is exactly my point : the final value of a metahuman's increased attribute is, under karma generation, likely to be lower than under BP generation, due to the non-linear cost.

It is more likely that a human and metahuman will have the same DP under karmagen.
This is not enough to balance out the mechanical advantage of metahumans, but in actual gameplay, it has less consequences than the minmaxing encouraged by BP gen.



What exactly was the mechanical reason for playing a human when generating characters with 400BP?
Oh, yes, high Edge.

Even before karmagen, no one would have ever had the idea to use a human for any theoretical optimization build except for Mr. Lucky.

Since SR4 came out, the one and only reason to play humans was style.
You can rant about karmagen as much as you want, i see your point there, but please don't tell anybody that BPgen is in any way balanced.
It just isn't.



I'll decline that challenge as well, not only because i just don't care enough, but also because i never disagreed on that issue with you.
I never denied that humans are still at a disadvantage, the math is obvious enough to see that.




Except for elfs, any metatype under BPgen receives advantages higher than the cost for his metatype and as in karmagen, they wouldn't even have to make use of the additional advantage to raise their attributes above human maximum to be mechanically superior to humans.
Sometimes, they may even be a good choice if the attributes they get a bonus to will be your character's dumpstats.
Does this sound familiar?


Of course they will make use of their advantage.
An elven shaman under BPgen will always have a CHA of at least 7, a troll sam an unmodified BOD of at least 9.
And they're not charged points for that, they pay merely for having their base attributes increased, and in the case of the troll, even that isn't the case.

Under karmagen, they are much less likely to have CHA7 or BOD9, which was all i was trying to say : when we're discussing characters intended for actual gameplay, the human's disadvantage under karmagen is at least less glaring.
If that isn't enough for you, fine, go ahead, houserule it.
If it works, i may try it out some day, but by now, i'll first try out some more how RAW works, then see if it actually needs fixing that much.




Actually i didn't try to tell you that.

A 5% gain for orks under both systems, the same racial minimums under both systems. Racial cost under the BP system is mostly an illusion.

If you want perfect mechanical balance, get rid of metas altogether and make everyone humans. Or else make metas pay for every single benefit. The latter is a nightmare to set evidenced by my attempt at it for the BP system.

The fact is, by choosing a metatype you are gaining quite a bit for no penalty, for example, when you choose an elf you are gaining 1 agility, 2 charisma, and low-light vision at no charge. You also gain something for nothing for being a human(+1 edge), but not nearly as much as by playing another metatype. The whole reduced cost to hit racial maximums is BS, a human and a troll with 6 body both resist damage the same, but the troll paid less for it and has the option to increase it further. This gets progressively worse as you find more expensive race options (drakes, AIs, free spirits) who need some cost to balance them.

Now I don't mind the idea that some races are better at certain things things, a human should have to spend a lot more resources to get to be a good melee fighter then a troll, but a troll simply gains too much over a human to be completely free. My solution is simple, just apply the normal BP costs of the metatypes as karma costs in the karma creation system. This still results in a net karma increase for every metatype save elves(who I'd bump down to a 25 cost (maybe even a 20), still not an increase(or much of them), but they'll just have to make do with having higher maxes in two attributes that no one else has bonuses too.) Being an ork or troll is still a more effective way to be a bruiser then a human, but it gives some mechanical justification for humans to exist. Playing a human gives you the most karma to play around with. Sure a troll will only take a small fraction of that karma(a very good price for their benefits) but it takes away that little bit of versitility.

This challenge is not fair. By buying Human, you are also buying into the options that are available to Humans. Therefore Human only options should also be available. By limiting Human only options you are in fact dictating a build favorable to your argument. You are further limiting your terms of comparison to Dice Pools only. This is again a biased comparison. You are skewing your challenge in favor of your assertion, when perhapst, it is only when you impose the limitations in your challenge that karmagen would come out ahead of BP gen.

In fact I propose another challenge instead. Create a racial Human BP gen character that will cost more than 750 karma to recreate. All RAW no holds barred.

If racial costs are such an issue, why not just normalize the costs such that each race costs the same (0) by granting Humans a few extras (perhaps extra karma points) and a few other adjustments. That way, each race start off with the same point value mechanically, but in fluff the mechanical differences are explained.

Darthmord:
Read all the historical threads and do a search... people were talking about this for a long time including your 'trivial' normalizing the cost. You'll find it's not quite so trivial. And isn't the point of the racial cost in the first place to 'normalize' the costs!

Totori:
I think there's a fair amount of support for the statement that 750karma characters are far stronger than 400BP ones already. It's like you saying, I challenge you to produce 150000 yen w/ $1000 when the exchange ratio is only ~110:1. So I'm going to call a polite BS on that one. You're asking for an apples to oranges comparison, then piling on extra oranges.

This is largely because under BP... raising those extreme meta stats is linear, while it becomes geometric under karma. So those chars needed more karma to max out those stats. So it became necessary to 'subsidize' metas under karmagen by giving more karma.

IMO: this results in another big problem... humans just run into caps far sooner than metas. As long as you're dealing w/ caps of attribute + skill + misc. The last two are fixed for everybody, so the only line of further advance is the attribute. Then when you deal w/ the defaulting rules, it's almost always preferable to have 1 rank in an attribute over 1 rank in a skill (especially if you can only buy 1 rank in the skill). Even if you turned around and said, okay all humans can get 7 or even 8 ranks in any skill instead of being capped at 6 (which would normalize the absolute advantage enjoyed by metas), then you run into the problem that it costs more for aggregate skills than attributes.

When it costs more to advance a skill group than the attribute in terms of karma, I think that highlights part of the problem. When it costs more to advance 2 individual skills than to advance the underlying attribute. I think you see why people put so much emphasis on the attributes, because attributes are your biggest bang for the buck investment.

You might want to re-read what I posted. Not once did I mention normalizing as being trivial.

Yes, the racial BP costs are ostensibly (IMO) there to help normalize the benefits of metahumanity against the lack of cost when choosing Human. Basically, they exist to help counter the benefits one derives from playing meta rather than human such that a player doesn't feel cheated for choosing the wrong race.

No such mechanic exists for Karma-gen. All racial costs are 0. Hence the reason I suggested folks normalize the costs for races for karma-gen (and perhaps BP if one was so inclined). I never talked about the difficulty or level of effort required.

Are you so sure it can't be done? Make a 400 BP PC that cannot be cloned with 750 karma?

It's technically possible, although whether it would be a useful build is another question. You are getting almost twice as much Karma as Build Points, and while some things cost less BP than Karma, they don't quite reach that same two for one ratio, except for Qualities, Contacts, and Resources, which are basically 2 Karma = 1 BP (I don't have RC, but from builds posted here, I think that's accurate). So if you spent nothing on Attributes (starting with 1 in them all), got one skill of 6 and one skill of 4 for 40 BP, spent 50 BP on resources, 35 BP on positive Qualities, and 275 points on Contacts, it would cost 66 + 100 + 70 + 550 = 786 Karma. Well, a bit more, let's not forget the 6 points of free knowledge skills that a Karma build would need to spend on. So one Knowledge skill of 6 to tack on 22 more, for 798 Karma.

I guess one of the qualities could be the one that lets you start with more money, and you could move some from contacts to resources, and you could get the quality that lets you get higher-rated gear. A suprathyroid gland, some muscle augmentation and toner, a cerebral booster, tailored pheromones - nah, he would still suck.