Karma Based Character Creation, Some math Options

[Xarei]

I just picked up Runner's Companion and was really pleased to see Karma based character gen in it, I've often played with 3rd party Karmagen rules in the earlier editions and I was happy to see it "officially" this time around.
However, when I tried to make a character I was struck by how odd the math was...

So looking at the totals: 400 BP = 750 Karma or 1 BP = 1.875 Karma

Looking at flat costed stuff like nuyen or qualities, 1BP = 2 Karma, this seems to make sense a tiny rounding difference is small price to pay not to have to get out my calculator to buy gear.

But looking at attributes:
Buying an Attribute up costs 10 BP per level, 40 BP for Strength 5 for example

Buying an Attribute up costs New level * 3 karma, 42 karma for Strength 5
(Start at 1, 6k for 2, 9k for 3, 12k for 4, 15k for 5)

Which is 1BP = 1.05 Karma

I picked 5 because it is the highest ratio of Karma to BP, for attribute values 2-4 it costs less karma than BP and I wasn't certain if you were still supposed to pay a 'tax' for maxing an attribute.




So, did I miss some errata? Like if attributes were New Value * 5 it would be closer to working out.
If not, and that is how it's intended, has anyone run a game with Karamgen? How does the favoring of attributes (and to a lesser extent skills) over Qualities, nuyen and contacts effect the game?

[venenum]

Serbitar has already addressed some of these problems. Heres the link;

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=12797

[ArkonC]

KarmaGen is awesome, but 750 Karma =/= 400 BP...
The most twinked out character I've made with 400BP was worth only 749 Karma in KarmaGen, with most being between 550 and 600...

[Xarei]

Wow those house rules from Serbitar are great!

[venenum]

Thats the way I feel as well plus they make trolls more playable

[Rasumichin]

There simply is no fixed ratio between BP and karma.

Both systems have entirely different implications.

BP gen favours softmaxing, dumpstats, loading up on bound foci or CF and avoiding skill specialization.
It will lead to highly specialized characters and, by 400BP RAW, will force you to neglect other areas for that due to point scarcity.
BP gen challenges you as a minmaxer, as it takes careful planning and ressource realignment to come up with a viable build.

RC Karmagen favours a broad skillset, slightly above-average attributes through the board, punishes extremely high attribute values and is really kind to you if you are a troll with attributes slightly above the average human.
By 750k RAW, points are available in abundance, the limiting factors typically being the hardcaps on spells, ressources, skill levels and qualities.
This, combined with the fact that attributes above 4 are so expensive, usually leads to a very broad set of skills between 1 and 4, with a greater incentive to puchase specializations (as they won't be cheaper once the game has started).
It will lead to well-rounded, versatile characters who are either obscenely powerful or can blow ridiculous amounts of points to simply flesh out the character with flavour skills.

[Ancient History]

Generally speaking, 600 Karma will make you a character closer to what you can do with BP. But if you're a troll (or sasquatch, or dzoo-noo-qua, etc.) trying to max out Strength or Body, things can get a tight.

[Skip]

That's part of the good part of a karma gen system ( I know, I'm preaching to the choir, or in AH's case, the reverend here). You can't take one part of the karma gen system and say it's broken because it doesn't create an identical character. 600 Karma will let you build a character that will play SR at a level most people are used to with a normal amount of BPs. The difference is that it encourages a more ballanced approach to character generation. There is no longer any reason to min/max in char gen because the cost is the same before and after character creation. Thus you end up with more but lower level skills, fewer sixes and ones in character attributes, and characters that look more like real characters as opposed to an excel experiment.

[ElFenrir]

I mean, yeah, 750 Karma, as it's been said, does end up with character a bit over 400. BUT...again, I have seen 400 BP characters more twinked/broken/Unbalancing than 750 BP characters. It goes back to those flavor skills. Hell, Ive seen 500 BP characters far more twinked than the 750 Karma(500 BP seems, by the consensus, to be SORT of equal to 750 Karma...but then again, a ''well twinked'' 400 BP character can scrape 650 karma alone. Yeah, it's hard to really compare it.)

Those flavor skills people end up with are great. I mentioned in another thread-when me and my group buddy remade a bunch of our characters, they really didn't grow up, as much as out. This is basically what happened:

Better natural attribute base. This does increase DPs a bit, but usually only 1-2. Not bad.
A few skills do get increases; usually secondary, and usually only a point or two.
The biggest difference is the flavor active skills, and lots of knowledge and language skills. It's not uncommon at least a good 100 Karma goes into all of these, if not more.
More evenly matched positive and negative qualities; less negative qualities overall.

As Skip said...yeah, characters that look more like characters. I mean, I try not to be an ubertwink when I play, and neither does our table-but we do find ourselves much more in twink mode under the BP system.

[Falconer]

I have to agree w/ the other posters... I LOVE how karmagen gets rid of the differences between advancement and chargen costs. I hate how BP really encourages extreme min/maxing topping of stats and skills so you don't pay the extra karma, then round out the character in play w/ karma.

The problem. Metatype is the elephant in the room... it's absolutely broken once you add metatypes and eliminate the price incentive to pick a human over anything. And while I agree it's a huge problem to address... the problem is metatypes aren't paying more for larger dicepools... a maxed elf and a maxed human gunbunny... the elf always has the advantage because of his higher natural agility and freebie stats and abilities. That is my only criticism of karmagen.

I've been working on an idea which I've been debating posting. The rough idea is it always costs 60karma to take a stat from 1 to max. (EG: 60karma to run the troll from 1BOD to 10BOD, same 60karma to raise the trolls charisma from 1 to 4 though... this makes metas more a collection of changed attribute maximums but you're still paying for your final rank).

[Muspellsheimr]

Might as well post my Karma generation rules here. They are not entirely completed, and still undergoing minor changes. Anyone that decides to use them is welcome to give me feedback, as I have not had a chance to really try them out yet. Please note that while they should be entirely compatible with RAW everything else, they are intended to function with other alterations to the system, particularly adjustments to how Technomancer's work, which I have included here, & adjustments to Metatype/Race costs, which I have not yet finalized.

I will be posting a full version of my suggested House Rules once I have them completed. At this time, however, I do not know when that will happen.

The format used is identical to the presentation in Runners Companion; the rules, however, have undergone changes in multiple areas.


Karma Character Generation

[ Spoiler ]

In a Karma-based character generation system, players start out building their characters with Karma - not Build Points. Essentially, improving the character from scratch. This makes Karma a default measure for players and gamemasters to compare relative experience between characters and allows a smoother transition between character generation and character advancement (aka removes min/maxing).

Karma-based character generation is a bit more detailed and intricate than the Build Point system. Given the exponential cost of increasing ratings, the Karma system will tend to produce more diversified and less specialized characters.


Starting Karma
Characters for a typical Shadowrun campaign should be built to a 600 Karma total - this produces characters roughly equivalent to those made with 400 Build Points. Gamemasters may adjust this total up or down to suit their tastes. Low-level campaigns might find 450 Karma more appropriate, while high-powered campaigns with expensive character options might generate characters with 750 Karma or more.


Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
The Metatype category refers to your character's "race", and includes the various Metavariants. To play a Metatype or other racial option (non-Metahuman Sapient, AI, Free Spirit), you must pay its Build Point value x 2 in Karma (so BP Cost x 2).


Step 2: Select Qualities
Positive Qualities have a Karma cost equal to twice their Build Point value (so BP Cost x 2). Negative Qualities return bonus Karma equal to twice their Build Point bonus. Normally, characters cannot spend more than 70 Karma in Positive Qualities nor gain more than 70 Karma in Negative Qualities. Note that Template Qualities, such as the Infected, are an exception to this rule and do not count against the maximum Karma you may spend or earn back through taking qualities.

If the character wishes to be Awakened or Emergent, the qualities that grant Magic or Resonance may be taken at this point as well as any complementary qualities such as Mentor Spirits and Paragons.


Step 3: Purchase Attributes
Next, purchase the character's attributes (including special attributes) using the costs given in the Karma Character Generation Table [New Rating x 5 Karma] . Characters begin with the minimum attribute ratings defined by their race/metatype (including Templates). Before determining the advancement cost of an attribute, apply the inverse of any racial modifiers (for example, a Troll receives +4 Body, so it determines advancement costs as if it's Body was 4 points lower than it's actual value. Conversely, a Troll receives -2 Charisma, so it determines advancement costs as if its Charisma was 2 points higher than its actual value.)

The maximum Karma a character can spend on their attributes at character generation is half their starting Karma (rounding up). Characters cannot begin the game with more than one attribute at their natural maximum. Characters begin with an Essence of 6. The metatype maximum rating for Edge is 6 (7 for humans); other character races may have different Edge maximums (refer to their descriptions).


Step 4: Purchase Your Skills
Next, consult the Karma Character Generation Table for the costs of raising skills and skill groups. Starting characters may only have one skill at Rating 6 (with the rest at Rating 4 or less) or two skills at Rating 5 (with the rest at Rating 4 or less). Skill groups may be purchased to a maximum of Rating 4 at character generation. Characters get their native language at Native rating for free.

Characters receive additional Karma equal to (Logic + Intuition) x 5. This Karma may only be spent on Knowledge & Language skills.


Step 5: Convert Your Karma to Nuyen
Next, purchase the character's lifestyle and trappings. Each point of Karma is equivalent to 2,500 Nuyen. A maximum of 100 Karma can be converted into Nuyen in this fashion. Equipment with a Rating higher than 6 or availability greater than 12 cannot normally be purchased.


Step 6: Purchase Magical & Resonance Resources
Characters with the Adept, Magician, Mystic Adept, or another quality that lets them use foci may bind any foci they purchased by paying the Karma costs listed in the Focus Bonding Table. Spellcasters may purchase a number of Spells up to their Spellcasting or Ritual Spellcasting (whichever is higher) skill x 2. Technomancers may purchase a number of Complex Forms up to their Logic x 2.

Conjurers may start the game with bound spirits by paying 1 Karma per service owed. The number of services owed may not exceed the character's Summoning skill, and its Force is equal to the character's Magic rating. The character cannot have more bound spirits than her Charisma attribute.

Technomancers may start the game with registered sprites by paying 1 Karma per task owed. The number of tasks owed may not exceed the character's Compiling skill, and its Rating is equal to the character's Resonance. The character cannot have more registered sprites than her Charisma attribute.


Step 7: Select Contacts
Each contact has both a Connection rating (1-6) and a Loyalty rating (1-6). The Karma cost of contacts is equal to Connection x Loyalty.

Character's receive additional Karma equal to their Charisma x 3. This Karma may only be spent on Contacts.


Step 8: Spend the Rest of Your Karma
If there is Karma left over at this point, go back and see what you can do with it. A character may begin the game with up to 5 Karma they did not spend at character generation. All remaining unspent Karma is lost.


Step 9: Finishing Touches
Apply the modifiers from your character's implants, adept powers, and equipment to her attributes and calculate her Condition Monitor & Initiative (and Matrix Initiative & Astral Initiative as appropriate).


Step 10: Calculate Starting Nuyen
Roll on the Starting Money Table (p.86, SR4). You may add +1 to your dice roll for each 100 Nuyen you did not spend during character creation, to a maximum of three times the number of dice rolled. Multiply the result by the appropriate factor listed, and the result is your character's starting Nuyen.


Character Advancement
Post-generation character advancement is handled using the same rules and costs as character generation, with the following alterations & exceptions:

• Contacts do not require Karma to obtain. They are gained purely through role-playing and the development of the story.
• You do not gain additional Karma for use on Knowledge/Language skills if your Intuition or Logic increases.
• All character generation limits are removed once the character begins play.
• Karma may not be exchanged for Nuyen, & vice-versa.

Optional Rule: Gamemasters may allow Karma <-> Nuyen exchange during game play. The conversion rate is 1 Karma per 2,500 Nuyen, or 2,500 Nuyen per 1 Karma. This can be explained as good luck with the lottery (Karma to Nuyen), donating funds & time to a cause (Nuyen to Karma), or anything else that feels appropriate for the character. Characters may only exchange 1 Karma or 2,500 Nuyen per game session this way. Gamemasters may allow an increased number of such exchanges in sessions with extended downtime, at their discretion.

Technomancers

[ Spoiler ]

Complex Forms
Technomancers do not normally use Programs while interacting with the Matrix - instead, they develop & use Program-like abilities known as Complex Forms. Complex Forms are run from a Technomancers Living Persona - they never take up subscription, and a Technomancers Response is never lowered from running System or more Complex Forms. Mechanically, they function the similar to Programs, except they may never be learned by non-Emergent characters, and can only be run from the Living Persona of the Technomancer using them.

A Complex Form exists for each available General & Hacking Program, excepting Analyze & Biofeedback Filter. A Technomancer instead learns Analyze as an Active Skill, & has an innate Biofeedback Filter equal to their Charisma Attribute.


Learning Complex Forms
To learn a new Complex Form, a Technomancer must first have access to a copy of the Complex Form's Resonance Code. To obtain the Resonance Code of a new Complex Form, the Technomancer must first contact another Technomancer who already knows the desired Form, then convince them to give them a copy of the Code. Alternatively, a Technomancer may compile their own Resonance Code for the desired Form, following the same rules for coding your own software.

Once a Resonance Code has been obtained, the Technomancer must spend time incorporating this Code into their Living Persona. To do this, the Technomancer must pay 5 Karma, then makes an Extended Resonance + Fading Attribute (5, 1 Day) Extended Test. Once this test is completed, the Complex Form is ready for use. If the Extended Test fails, the Karma spent to learn the Complex Form is not regained, but the Technomancer does not need to pay Karma again to learn that Complex Form, & may re-attempt the test as desired.


Using Complex Forms
Complex Forms are classified as either Passive or Active. To use a Passive Complex Form, a Technomancer chooses a Rating between 1 and Resonance. They then resist Fading (Stun) equal to one-half the chosen Rating (round down). The Complex Form remains active until the Technomancer looses concentration, is rendered unconscious, or chooses to dismiss it; anything that can cause a Magician to loose concentration on a Spell can cause a Technomancer to loose concentration on a Complex Form.

To use an Active Complex Form, a Technomancer chooses a Rating between 1 and Resonance. Resolve the use of the Complex Form identically to how you would resolve the use of the associated Program at the selected Rating. The Technomancer then resists Fading (Stun) equal to one-half the chosen Rating (round down). Unlike Passive Forms, Active Forms do not remain active - a Technomancer must select a Rating & resist Fading each time they use an Active Form.

A Technomancer may choose to use a Complex Form of a Rating higher than their Resonance Attribute, up to Resonance x 2. If they do so, the Fading is converted to Physical damage. Further, any Passive Forms whose Rating exceeds a Technomancers Resonance incur a -2 Sustaining penalty to all actions.


Complex Options
A Complex Option is an additional effect that can be added to the use of a Complex Form. A Complex Option exists for each available Program Option (p. Unwired).

A Technomancer may learn a Complex Option following the same rules and costs for learning a Complex Form (above). Complex Options are not learned for a specific Complex Form; once learned, a Complex Option may be used with any compatible Complex Form the Technomancer knows.

To use a Complex Option, the Technomancer chooses to do so with each activation of a Complex Form. A Technomancer may use a number of known Options up to one-half the Complex Form's chosen Rating (round down). Each Option used increases the Fading of the Form by +1. Options with variable Ratings function at a Rating equal to one-half the Complex Form's Rating (round down)


Threading Complex Forms & Options
A Technomancer may temporarily Thread a Complex Form or Option they do not know, making it available for use. To do so, they use a Complex Action. The Technomancer suffers a -2 Sustaining penalty to all actions for each sustained Complex Form or Option. While Sustained, the Complex Form or Option is available for normal use.

EDIT: I made changes to the Karma cost for advancing Attributes, and did not realize the changes where not included in the above. I have included them in brackets in the Purchase Attributes section.

Further, if anyone has questions on why I have made any of the above changes, feel free to ask here. If anyone believes one of the changes is a mistake, or has a suggestion, please post it here, along with an explanation of why it was a mistake, or the reasoning behind the suggestion.

[Ol' Scratch]

I'd personally start by giving a Karma cost for racial powers (which is pretty easy for most of the new racial options since there's already a BP cost associated with them), calculate how much their base attributes above 1 cost, add those values together, subtract 6 (since Humans get to start with Edge 2) and tag the total as the metatype cost. I'd then see how that compares to other methods and what kind of characters you end up with. If the prices were too high, my next step would be to look at lowering the costs for metatypes with restricted attribute ratings. And then I'd just go from there.

For example, an Ork would initially cost 41 Karma (42 points for Body 4 and Strength 3, 5 points for Low-Light Vision, and -6 to keep Humans at 0 cost). If that seemed to high, I'd lower it to 29 Karma (-6 points for a lower max Charisma and another -6 points for Logic). If that still seemed too high, I'd keep tinkering til I found something workable.

If you want the perks for going over the human norms, you pay the price for them. That's what makes it fair and, more importantly, keeps Humans as a very viable choice from a mechanical point of view. They certainly don't deserve bonus Karma via no cost simply for permission to go over those norms. At least not in my opinion.

That said, I really hate trolls in the game. They're the single biggest reason that so many character creation methods are screwed up, as they have to allow the absurd attributes trolls are granted. If you removed them completely from the game, it'd be a lot easier to fix things. The addition of AIs and Free Spirits certainly add to that. But such is life.

[Rasumichin]

The problem. Metatype is the elephant in the room... it's absolutely broken once you add metatypes and eliminate the price incentive to pick a human over anything. And while I agree it's a huge problem to address... the problem is metatypes aren't paying more for larger dicepools... a maxed elf and a maxed human gunbunny... the elf always has the advantage because of his higher natural agility and freebie stats and abilities. That is my only criticism of karmagen.

Actually it is not as problematic as it sounds once you get more acquainted with building efficient characters with the karma system.
The increasing costs for high stats are really a huge disincentive.

As i posted earlier in another thread, when rebuilding a human caster with 750karma, i discovered that he is actually less disadvantaged under the karma system when you compare him to elfs or dwarfs.

The linear costs for attributes meant that it was a no-brainer for those to softmax their drain stats.
Under karmagen, bringing your attributes above 6 is something you really consider carefully as it is prohibitively expensive from the start and you don't save any karma as well.

This means that having a higher possible max DP is less advantageous as before.
The benefits are the same, but the associated costs have increased.

What does look tempting about certain metatypes upon closer examination are their starting values.
But this is less of an issue, as they'll be usually set at a level where buying an attribute up is still cheap (unless you're a troll/bear shapeshifter).


Like with BPgen, there are specific exploits, albeit different ones, of course.
But in many cases, human characters will not be punished as severely.

I don't think we'll see less humans, but certainly less trolls who put any points in Strenght or have above-average Body for their metatype.
And more trolls who have stats like a strong human.

[Muspellsheimr]

Rasumichin, I have covered this before in the other thread. The increasing costs are not a disadvantage when compared to Humans. The various metatypes all are significantly more efficient options than Humans, under Karma Generation RAW.

The final value of an Attribute, not the number it was increased by, is what is of importance for game balance. Body 5 is, mechanically, the same as Body 5, regardless of if it is on a Troll or a Human, and mechanically is what matters.

For no cost, an Elf has a minimum of 3 Charisma vs. a Human's 1. The Elf pays less for a 6 Charisma than a Human. The Elf has the option of achieving an 8 Charisma - the Human does not.

With Karma Generation RAW, the only reason to ever play a Human, from a Mechanical standpoint, is to achieve Edge 7 or Edge 8, either of which one of the metatypes can match in at least one other Attribute, for less cost.


To prove this, I give you the same challenge I gave Ancient History (which was declined).
You may create any Human character you wish, using Karma Generation RAW, excepting Human-Only options such as Vampires. You may, however, increase Edge to 7 or 8, if you choose.

I will then create an Elf, Ork, Dwarf, or Troll (my choice), using the same starting Karma & restrictions that you used, that will first match your characters Dice Pools exactly, and then exceed at minimum one of your Dice Pools. Should you increase Edge to 7, I will then increase one of my character's Attributes from 6 to 7 to compensate. If you increase your Edge to 8, I will do the same with one of my character's Attributes to compensate (and I will then have an even further Karma advantage over you by 40 points).

Once again, under Karma Generation RAW, Metatypes are always superior to Humans. This is not true in the Build Point system, because there they have to pay for their advantages, the same as any other character (Human or otherwise). I am not saying the costs for Metatypes under Build Points are balanced, but they are significantly closer to it than under Karma.

[Falconer]

Rasumichin:
I disagree... I pointed out that the sheer amount of karma saved by those 'cheap' starting stats was enough to raise a magic stat to 5 by itself in another thread. So you're telling me that for two chars w/ identical statbars.. the fact that the meta had to pay less then the human to get it is balanced? Another way of looking at it was it was enough to raise an entire skill group to 4 and change. That's a big advantage.

The problem is the cost penalty only comes in when you try and raise over the human maxes, there's no base cost for the 'head start' or a penalty cost for the attributes which they're supposed to be penalized in. EG: it's 15 karma for troll, orc, whatnot to take cha from 1->3 (3 being quite passable IMO for any non-face in the game). The same thing which makes it cheap for humans to raise stats, makes it rediculously cheap for non-human dump stats to be raised to adequate.

Musp:
I didn't ask in PM when you were going over the rough and I missed it again. But do you have the penalized attributes forced to buy up to a minimum of 1? EG: troll needs to buy at least 2 points of cha before anything else to bring him up to 1. Or is that just to go from 1->2 is paid for the same as going from 3->4.

[Muspellsheimr]

I am not charging for bringing an Attribute up to 1 if it is penalized; 1 is the minimum an Attribute may ever be naturally. One way to think of it is the cost for raising a Troll's Charisma from -1 to 1 is included in the Metatype cost.

If you can think of a way to phrase it so it becomes clear on the first reading, let me know. I believe I have done a good job myself, but obviously there is possible confusion, as you had to ask.


EDIT: I just realized I missed a bit of information in my House Rules post. I have edited it to include the previously missing information.

[Krule]

To prove this, I give you the same challenge I gave Ancient History (which was declined).
You may create any Human character you wish, using Karma Generation RAW, excepting Human-Only options such as Vampires. You may, however, increase Edge to 7 or 8, if you choose.

I will then create an Elf, Ork, Dwarf, or Troll (my choice), using the same starting Karma & restrictions that you used, that will first match your characters Dice Pools exactly, and then exceed at minimum one of your Dice Pools. Should you increase Edge to 7, I will then increase one of my character's Attributes from 6 to 7 to compensate. If you increase your Edge to 8, I will do the same with one of my character's Attributes to compensate (and I will then have an even further Karma advantage over you by 40 points)..

Alright, I'm game, I'll give this a try, more because I'm currious, then because I think you can't do it, I'm sort of wondering how you'd manage to do so with this character, who I've been wondering a bit about for a while now. I put Karma Cost inside [] for ease of referance

Karma: 750
Metatype:Human

Attributes: Body: 5 [42], Agility 5(7) [42], Reaction 5 [42], Strength 2 [6], Charisma 5 [42], Intuition 5 [42], Logic 8(10) [105], Willpower 5 [42], Edge 6 [54], Initiative: 10, Magic 5 [52], Essence 5.2

Skills: Arcana 2 [8], Assessing 2 [8], Skill: Astral Combat 2[8], Skill: Counterspelling 4[22], Ritual Spellcasting 3 [14], Spellcasting (Combat) 6((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) [46], Conjuring 2 [20], Blades(Swords) 2(4)[10], Dodge 2 [8], Pistols(Heavy) 2(4) [10], Magic Background 3 [7], Magic Theory 4 [11], Spirits: 2 [4], Knowledge: Astral Research 2 [4], Safe Houses 1 [2]

Qualities: Magican [30], Exceptional Attribute: Logic [40], Gremlins 2 [-20], Sensitive System [-30], Spirit Bane - Task Spirits [-20]

Spells [60]: Stunbolt, Stunball, Powerbolt, Powerball, Lightning Bolt, Ball Lightning, Mind Probe, Heal, Increase Reflexes, Improved Invisibility, Armor, Levitate

Bound Spirits: Fire Spirit with 2 Services [4]

Focus: Weapon Focus 2 [8]

Contacts: Talismonger: Connections 2, Loyalty 4 [12], Mr. Johnson: 5 Connections, Loyalty 2 [14]

Resources [51]: 125,000

Genetic Optimization-Logic 45000
Cerebral Boosters 2 20000
Muscle Toner 2 16000
High Lifestyle - 1 month 10000
Magicial Logic Level 6 3000
Fake SIN - 5 5000
Commlink: Novatech Airware 1250
SOS: Iris Orb 1000
Contacts w/LL & VM 450
Fake SIN - 3 3000
Are Viper Silvergun 500
5 Regular Clips 100
5 Fleshette Clip 500
Armored Vest 600
Weapon Focus 2: Katana 20000
Lined Coat 700
Fake Lisence 3 300
Clothing 100

[ElFenrir]

I recently made three characters(not as much a test, but more because I was inspired, but they are all fully viable PCs/NPCs and I had a cool backstory idea), one an Elf Changeling dude, one a Fomori Hacker/Tech Guy, one a Human Mage lady. All of them pretty much equalled out their positive and negative qualities.

Attribute-wise, the Elf spent and I'd say ended up with the best spread(5/5/4/5/5/4/4/4/edge 3.) This was 270 Karma. Didn't max anything.

Mr. Fomori(who does come with an inate Arcane Arrester, ill give you that, trading the dermal deposits, but that Arcane Arrester is pretty good), spent a bit more on his attributes, ending up with the spread of 7/4/4/7/4/4/4/5 with a 4 edge, for 282 Karma. He also maxed Charisma in the process.

Ms. Mage spent the least on basic attributes; but +60 for her Magic. She spent 225 on her basic attribute spread and edge, and ended up with 3/4/3/2/5/4/5/5 with a 3 Edge. Nothing maxed(save the mentioned magic).

I guess it's how you look at things. Now, in the human's case, her attributes aren't all that(I needed a lot of skill points for her), but she has the best natural Mental spread of the bunch. The Fomori and the Elf have similar, very solid spreads.

But it's not as much as a comparison of metas, it's metas and humans. Our mage down there might not be the mightiest of arm, but she's got the best Mental Attributes, overall, of the bunch, a spread that's still solid for what she needs to do(a 2 isn't bad), and spent a full 65 Karma less to get it next to the elf, and 77 Karma less than the Fomori.


Really, none of these attribute spreads are, IMO, obviously ''super better'' than the other. They each fill a role, the role that they are needed. The elf changeling is the team muscle/on site tech, and has the stats for it; and he's got room to grow. The fomori is a hacker, but can use some weapons with some skill and also go on-site without too much trouble. The mage is a hell of a spellcaster(6 magic with all of that), and has enough Agility to utilize her stun baton and handguns on top of it. But the fact the human could fill her role for 65 Karma less, IMO, says a bit of something. Even bringing her Magic to 6, she STILL fills her role with 5 less BP than the others, who didn't have to buy a Magic attribute. Each of them can fill three roles: all three can face, the Fomori has hacker skills and backup combat, the Mage her offensive, defensive, and utility casting as well as enough Agility to be a good backup firearms girl, and the Elf the tech/combat.

As I said, the human spent less to get her role, so to speak. I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Raw numbers-wise, the Fomori seems to be on top with his spread; but again, he had to max an attribute to do it. Is it raw numbers that matter, or how much they have to spend to fufill their roles? Again, all three can preform three roles very well.

Now, what if every race had straight 5's out of the box(Edge included?) Let's see the cost:


Human, 5's: 372.
Elf, straight 5: 357.
Troll, straight 5s: Impossible in chargen, since you can only max 1 attribute. So we'll max Agility out, and leave the rest to 1 less, and it costs 237.
Ork: Also impossible in chargen, but we'll max out Charisma as the attribute of choice. 321.
Dwarf: 351.

Ok, so this is to get a 5 in everything at the start(if possible). Yes, Trolls and Orks cost less; Elves and Dwarves are closer to human(and are actually able to get all attributes to 5 as well.) But your cheaper Trolls and Orks are indeed more ''gimped'' for their race, saving these. Yes, starting with 5's is pretty powerful, hence the cost.

Again, the Karma, as written, with 750, works just fine for us, so we're keeping it. YMMV, naturally. All tables are different.

But IMO, I guess it's how you look at it. See, I'm looking at it from the angle of-it costs quite a bit more to increase a Troll's attributes to the point where he's at least average for his race. His maxes are lower as well, for many other attributes. If you want a human with exceptional body for his race, it's 42 Karma for a 5. If you want a Troll with exceptional body for his race, it's 90 Karma to get a 9. Is a 9 higher than a 5? Yes. Should a 9 cost more than a 5? Yes, and it does. Should a troll be hosed because the player wants to play someone that's actually really tough? No. Can you play a troll or ork that's a bit gimpy for their own race, for less than a human? Sure. But an ''all exceptional humans and metahumans'' (as in, every stat up to 1 under the max), the costs are about the same; humans end up with higher spreads overall(ok, elves and dwarves, too), troll's beefier physical stats are offset by the lower mental stats(and troll Agility is lower, the Big combat stat.)

The thing is, too many tweaks can also make metas no longer that appealing, and you end up with SR2 syndrome where they were easily hosed.

Again, this whole thing could stem from me being blessed with an awesome table. We play the race we see with our characters, regardless of costs, and game balance was never an issue. The first rule of anything is ''is this rule fun at our table? Is everyone happy? If so, nothing needs to be changed.'' Fun before anything, IMO, including balance. If a rule is a bit unbalanced but not ruining anyone's fun, or even more, adding to it...then I think it's better to leave it be.

But, I mean, perhaps this Meta-thing happening is ruining fun at someone else's table...in which case, I can understand wanting to change it. We have a list of house rules that make the game more fun for us. If making metas more expensive or whatnot makes the game more fun, then by all means, do it. I'm not saying anyone's wrong for wanting to. But I guess, because i never had to deal with a table that picked ''the race with the most pluses'' all the time, I just have trouble grasping where it's THAT unbalancing. I DO admit it can skew toward metas, yes. I'm not denying that. But I just don't see how it's gamebreaking unless the players indeed always just pick the race with the most pluses, so to speak. So again, it's not as much as ''you're all wrong for wanting to change it!'' it's ''I can understand wanting to change something that makes the game unfun, but since it's never affected us, I have trouble grasping why.'' If that makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Skip]

Honestly, play it before trying any changes.

I've played Karma-gen games and rarely find them unbalanced. If anything I think you'll find less people playing trolls in a Karma-gen system.

Without doing a lot of math, just think about it, under which method are trolls unbalanced? With BP or priorities you are looking at max bod and max-1 strength trolls every time. To play one at anything less is to inflict a high future cost to yourself, as the karma needed to raise either is so high it would easily pay for all the other skills or attributes you want. All you need to do is keep one alive through the first few runs and he's a monster.

With Karma-gen, you are looking at a much lower starting Bod and Strength levels. Yes, he spends less karma to get there than a human, but he is also more limited in the non-physical attributes and skill levels, he pays 15% more for everything, he is constantly discriminated against, and every eye is on him in most places over a middle lifestyle.

[Muspellsheimr]

Karma: 750

You used 790 Karma.

Magic 5 [52]

This should be Magic 5 [42]. I am guessing it is a typo. Unless of course you intended it to be 5 after Essence loss, in which case it should be [60], and your character used 808 Karma.

As an Elf, the Attributes cost 15 less Karma for the same scores. Everything else can simply be copied. That 15 Karma can go into whatever you would like, but because I am feeling like randomness, let's put it into 3 ranks of Electronic Warfare, and a Spirits (Toxic) specialization.

New Attribute Costs (Elf):

Attributes: Agility 5(7) [36], Charisma 5 [27], Intuition 5 [42], Edge 6 [60]

End result; as an Elf, you have identical capabilities as the Human, plus an additional Rating 3 Skill, Knowledge specialization, natural Low-Light Vision, & a higher maximum on Charisma (higher Agility maximum cancels out higher Edge maximum).

Elves are, under Karma Generation, the least powerful Metatype next to Humans, but because of starting limits on Attributes, the only one I could duplicate your build with.

[Krule]

Nope, that should be 42 for magic, my appologies, as to the Karma issue, hmm.. must have been 40 Karma over, wonder where I managed that, maybe I did something wrong on the spreadsheet, or missed something, I thought I had the formula right.. ah well, next time, as a comparison it still works.

And, on another level, I sort of suspected you'd have to go with elf on that, to really match his ablities, in a way, I sort of hand cuffed you into it, though if I had been you, I'd have put those extra 15 karma to a focus of some kind, or more points in knowledges, it works fine.

It does mean, however, that you can only match his dice pools, and can't exceed them, sense it costs more karma to raise charisma over 6, or agility over 5 then you have, though you can create a new dice pool that he didn't really have. So this character is somewhat harder to match or exceed then the others. I admit, a less focused character with somewhat lower attributes is easier to exceed, for example, if I had made them a physical adept, and focused on a different attribute then logic, you could have done much better, say with one of the other metatypes.

If I was actually creating this character as a elf, I'd have done him differently, such as putting another point or two in charisma or quickness, and a few less points elsewhere, like a edge of 5, instead of 6. Btw, I did, for a moment, concider raising edge to seven, be then decided to leave it so that you could match it.

[Muspellsheimr]

Technically, I did exceed your Dice Pool in Electronic Warfare, but if you want, I can do the same with skills you will actually use.

Up Ritual Spellcasting to 4, and Dodge (or Pistols, Arcana, Assessing, or Blades) to 3. Or increase your Conjuring Group to 3. Or hand out multiple specializations.

& if you had raised Edge to 7, I would have been 3 Karma away from matching it in Charisma (after taking into account raising it from 5 to 6). Couldn't quite do it, but very close.


EDIT: With an additional 0.2 Essence Loss (acceptable with the above build), I could also match & exceed him as a Dwarf.

On another note, if you intend to actually play this character, I suggest using Class II SURGE (Metagenic Improvement) instead of Exceptional Attribute. You gain 20 Karma of Negative Qualities (many of which are inconsequential), but also free up 26 Karma to use elsewhere, as well as allowing another 20 Karma of Positive Qualities.

[Krule]

Technically, I did exceed your Dice Pool in Electronic Warfare, but if you want, I can do the same with skills you will actually use.

Up Ritual Spellcasting to 4, and Dodge (or Pistols, Arcana, Assessing, or Blades) to 3. Or increase your Conjuring Group to 3. Or hand out multiple specializations.

& if you had raised Edge to 7, I would have been 3 Karma away from matching it in Charisma (after taking into account raising it from 5 to 6). Couldn't quite do it, but very close.


EDIT: With an additional 0.2 Essence Loss (acceptable with the above build), I could also match & exceed him as a Dwarf.

On another note, if you intend to actually play this character, I suggest using Class II SURGE (Metagenic Improvement) instead of Exceptional Attribute. You gain 20 Karma of Negative Qualities (many of which are inconsequential), but also free up 26 Karma to use elsewhere, as well as allowing another 20 Karma of Positive Qualities.

I did concider the SURGE idea, actually, but sense you said human, I don't quite concider Surge as human, they've changed to much. Actually, most of the time, when I play characters, I tend toward elves, I simply prefer them, I've played many elves, though I also have a tendacy to play trolls on occations I don't play elves, humans are usually my third choice, and I have played a few, with orcs fourth, and lastly dwaves.. actually, I've never played a dwarf, and only once, that I can recall.. have I made a orc.. whom I never played either, but at least I made one.

As to the Charisma at 7, if you'd have let strength drop to 1, or let one of your skills drop one, you'd have been able to have that seven. Of course, it would also differentate the two characters more. As to the dwarf... hmm...... you might have more free points that way too then as the elf.

[Muspellsheimr]

With Dwarf, the 18 points saved from Attributes would go into Nuyen to pay for the Genetic Optimization.

The end result would be Strength 3 vs. your 2, Thermographic Vision, +2 vs. Pathogens & Toxins, and 5.0 Essence. Not many changes, but still an improvement.

[ElFenrir]

You know, when speaking of balance Metahuman wise and the like with this, I really have faith the players are going to pick what suits them best. Why? Dwarves are rarely played, and point for point, they are one of the best deals vs. cost you get.

They have a full range of Mental stats, and are the only race that gets a Willpower bonus. They get a Body and Strength bonus. All of this makes them really available to play any class, and they make excellent mages of all types(Elf charisma helps for conjuring, but Dwarves don't get a charisma penalty, and their physical stats help them. Then again, Ive played a tough-as nails elven combat mage before. It can be done, people just don't do it often for some reason.)

All of this, plus the thermographic vision, and bonus dice to resistances, all for the cost of some Reaction and movement rate. IMO, they make out a bit better than elves and the like, yet they are the least played race, by far. This really does lead me to think even under this Karma system and the fact Metas have it a bit easier, people will still, indeed, pick what they want to play.