I have some question about bows and the actions, plus tweaks that martial arts give and martial art maneuvers.

So Normally bows during combat go, ready weapon - simple action, shoot bow - simple action, turn over.

With a tweak from a archery martial art that makes ready weapon a free would look like (I think) Ready weapon - free action, Shoot bow - simple action, 1 simple action left.

Here is were my question comes in being that you only get one free action would that make ready weapon a simple action for the purpose of the turn?

Second with Iaijutsu - quick drawing, now would that make it look like this. open-free action, quick draw test (say successful) shoot bow - simple action, quick draw test (say successful) shoot bow - simple action.

am I missing anything?

link this is my inspiration

Thanks,
Brent

If you search around YouTube you will find the Japanese Archery movies. But to each there own.

As for your questions, use your DataSearch skills here on Dumpshock, you will find all of your answers.

WMS

While this is not explicitly addressed in the rules, I would rule that you can spend simple actions to Ready Weapon after you have expended your free action for the round. Otherwise, it makes no sense - you wouldn't be able to use a bow more than once per round if you had to spend a free action to Ready Weapon.


That sounds right. It would also work with the adept Quickdraw ability.

Open your hymnal to p136, second paragraph after the Simple Actions heading.
The Good Lord allows that you trade simple actions for free actions.

Per Reepneep's reply, yes, you can.

It is interesting to note that while you can Ready Weapon and Take Aim with a Projectile Weapon, I haven't found an explicit Action to shoot a bow or crossbow. Has anyone been able to find such an action?

p...136...138ish...

A bow/crossbow is not a Firearm. Are your bows listed under the Firearms section of the Street Gear chapter?

No, but I can also read the book so that not everything has to be written word to word. The rule is about firing a weapon but the description then says firearm instead of a bow. Tho a crossbow does work amazingly lot like a firearm when it comes to actually firing the projectile. In both you usually pull a trigger and you can get also for a bow a trigger for more easy release. Also I didn't find a rule for harpoon guns but I did somehow manage to cope with the rules given, but I'm odd in that way I guess...

I think the issue with bows was discussed a lot on another thread not that long ago so I don't think it needs any more clearing. 3 Arrows per 2 passes is doable.

Not firearm means you cannot use Fire Weapon to shoot a Projectile Weapon. The AquaDyne Harpoon Gun has its own rules. The closest RAW you can use to shoot a Projectile Weapon is the Use Skill action - which means that you need a Complex Action to shoot a bow.

In this question/issue I agree with Toturi. Firearm does not equal Bow/CrossBow.

WMS

The book I got says fire a weapon is a simple action and I do count bow and crossbow as weapons so I just go with that. If you want to use use skill to fire a bow or crossbow, go right ahead. If you have ever handled a bow or a crossbow, you might know that firing each one of them isn't much more time consuming than pulling a trigger of a gun. It's the reload time that makes the difference.

But as I said, It's just my way of reading the book and the rule. Feel free to disagree if you like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

On a side note, one could also argue that throwing a NON-Weapon would also be a complex action as the rule says only throwing a throwing weapon is a simple action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

The action name is Fire Weapon but what Fire Weapon actually does is fire a ready firearm in single-shot, semi-automatic, or burst-fire mode. I have done archery before, and I know that even if all I wanted was to release as soon as I can drawn to a full pull starting with an arrow already nocked, then it would take about as long as I shoot full auto on my GPMG.

Throwing a non-specific throwing weapon is covered under Improvised Throwing Weapons Arsenal p20.

I also agree w/ Toturi on this one. It's a complex action to use a melee physical weapon as well. Bows strike me as little different.

Another point, for all those types who only get two cyberarms... your torso back muscles are very important to using a bow properly. GM's don't forget to average the arms and the torso when calculating str to use a trollbow! (I always imagine some tricked out troll w/ his new arms, using his new bow, then watching his back muscles tear off the bones from the strain.

I also agree w/ Toturi on this one. It's a complex action to use a melee physical weapon as well. Bows strike me as little different.

Another point, for all those types who only get two cyberarms... your torso back muscles are very important to using a bow properly. GM's don't forget to average the arms and the torso when calculating str to use a trollbow! (I always imagine some tricked out troll w/ his new arms, using his new bow, then watching his back muscles tear off the bones from the strain.

Now hopefully the weather tomorrow cooperates and I can stop by the archery range tomorrow for a few hours.

I'm not playing in your game and you're not playing in mine so there's no problem. My archers are just that much faster than yours (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Machine guns have fixed cyclic rate, bows don't.

I too do archery; I'm currently spooling up to hunt with my bow in bare-bow fashion. I can see both sides where it could be complex action or a simple action in using a bow in combat. I think personally that it's up to the style of archery you use. Kyudo, I see as complex action type because it's more a string of ritual actions. But with styles like Mongolian and Hungarian I see as simple action, especially with the bow hand technique of drawing arrows. Like others I use them in my game as simple actions mostly for a more cinematic style than realistic. I like the idea of magic and fantasy tie-ins being able to put a lot of arrows down range.

Brent

When the first thread on the Free Action Ready Weapon came up, I saw everyone speaking of firing a bow as a Simple Action, which confused me, because I had always thought it was Complex. I then searched the book to see what action it did use, and could not find it. I have sense then searched many times, and still have yet to find it. Bows follow the rules for projectile weapons, but the only rules I can find for projectile weapon firing rates specifically refer to thrown weapons, which a bow is not.

If a developer can clear up this unclarity, it would be appreciated.

I have always played bows under the Fire Weapon action. However, after reading this thread, some quick Googling reminds me that real life trained English archers could fire 10–12 arrows per minute, which works out to one every other (three second) Combat Turn.

That certainly implies that firing a bow should be a complex action. With all the ways to reload (Ready Weapon) for free, that would reasonably mean that a trained Sixth World archer could fire one shot each Initiative Pass.

Also in real life, crossbows are harder to ready than bows, but easier to fire, suggesting a at least a Complex Action to ready, and a Simple Action to fire.

However, SR4 (p.144) says "The ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing weapons. Due to their nature, however, some special rules also apply." There are no special rules for firing such weapons, only reloading them, and modern crossbows ready themselves from a 4-round magazine. So one could reasonably argue RAW either way for bows, but crossbows seem to clearly be "firearms" both for firing and reloading the magazine.

As for non-modern crossbows, I would treat readying them as a Complex Action, although still treating them like firearms for Fire Weapon seems appropriate.

Given all of the above—and pending any directly related errata—I would rule that firing a bow (not crossbows) is a Complex Action.

Another question regarding bows - the Personalized Grip (Arsenal) grants Recoil Compensation to ranged weapons, & +1 die to melee weapons. A bow does not suffer from recoil, so the ranged modification is useless. However, a bow is not a melee weapon, and so cannot receive the +1 die. What, then, does a bow get from the Personalized Grip, & if nothing, what should it get?

You can get custom grip also to a single shot gun where it is useless as well, but it is a custom grip anyway. I'd say it gives negative pool for anyone else but other than that, it's just for your own convenience. And it shows that you value the gun even more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

On the matter of bow speed, those brit archers that fired 12 shots a minute did have bit different style of using a bow. I think one can fire twice as fast but with less accuracy and when you take in account the archers on 10th century didn't have wired reflexes, it's more than possible to fire those shots with amazing speed assuming you got the arrows really ready somewhere to be pulled out with a flick of a wrist. You can only have some arrows ready like that anyway so when the few nicely placed arrows do run out, you can't just keep redying them with free action. Can't really keep them in a normal quiver to be able to fast-draw them, methinks.

Maybe bows should suffer recoil from shooting too fast and there the custom grip would help a bit?

@ BullZeye:
10-12 shots per minute is equal to Re/Load (Standard) + Fire (Complex).

With training, you can achieve 20 shots per minute: Re/Load (Free) + Fire (Complex).

That is without any form of Initiative Enhancement. If the bow firing rate is Simple Action, then an amateur can still fire 20 arrows/minute, with a trained (Free Reload) can fire 30 arrows/minute - all with a single Initiative Pass. While I believe a wired individual can easily achieve a firing rate of 30/minute, that is rather absurd for an unaugmented individual.

I treat it as a melee weapon in that regard.

Regarding the firing rate of bows, it is essentially a Complex Action to fire one; it's just split into two Simple Actions. One to grab an arrow and cock it, the other to actually let go of the string. If the former only takes a Simple Action, why on earth would firing it take longer?

I treat it as granting a +1 Strength for the purpose of calculating Range (only).

Quick question: can your "effective" strength go above your Augmented strength for the purposes of ranged weapons? Say I had a troll with 9 strength, who used Attribute Boost to raise that to 13. Could Power Throw let me treat that as more than 15?

In situations like that, sure. It's not actually boosting your Strength but giving a bonus to an effect. Subtle but notable difference. Others may disagree, though.