I have some question about bows and the actions, plus tweaks that martial arts give and martial art maneuvers.

So Normally bows during combat go, ready weapon - simple action, shoot bow - simple action, turn over.

With a tweak from a archery martial art that makes ready weapon a free would look like (I think) Ready weapon - free action, Shoot bow - simple action, 1 simple action left.

Here is were my question comes in being that you only get one free action would that make ready weapon a simple action for the purpose of the turn?

Second with Iaijutsu - quick drawing, now would that make it look like this. open-free action, quick draw test (say successful) shoot bow - simple action, quick draw test (say successful) shoot bow - simple action.

am I missing anything?

link this is my inspiration

Thanks,
Brent

If you search around YouTube you will find the Japanese Archery movies. But to each there own.

As for your questions, use your DataSearch skills here on Dumpshock, you will find all of your answers.

WMS

While this is not explicitly addressed in the rules, I would rule that you can spend simple actions to Ready Weapon after you have expended your free action for the round. Otherwise, it makes no sense - you wouldn't be able to use a bow more than once per round if you had to spend a free action to Ready Weapon.


That sounds right. It would also work with the adept Quickdraw ability.

Open your hymnal to p136, second paragraph after the Simple Actions heading.
The Good Lord allows that you trade simple actions for free actions.

Per Reepneep's reply, yes, you can.

It is interesting to note that while you can Ready Weapon and Take Aim with a Projectile Weapon, I haven't found an explicit Action to shoot a bow or crossbow. Has anyone been able to find such an action?

p...136...138ish...

A bow/crossbow is not a Firearm. Are your bows listed under the Firearms section of the Street Gear chapter?

No, but I can also read the book so that not everything has to be written word to word. The rule is about firing a weapon but the description then says firearm instead of a bow. Tho a crossbow does work amazingly lot like a firearm when it comes to actually firing the projectile. In both you usually pull a trigger and you can get also for a bow a trigger for more easy release. Also I didn't find a rule for harpoon guns but I did somehow manage to cope with the rules given, but I'm odd in that way I guess...

I think the issue with bows was discussed a lot on another thread not that long ago so I don't think it needs any more clearing. 3 Arrows per 2 passes is doable.

Not firearm means you cannot use Fire Weapon to shoot a Projectile Weapon. The AquaDyne Harpoon Gun has its own rules. The closest RAW you can use to shoot a Projectile Weapon is the Use Skill action - which means that you need a Complex Action to shoot a bow.

In this question/issue I agree with Toturi. Firearm does not equal Bow/CrossBow.

WMS

The book I got says fire a weapon is a simple action and I do count bow and crossbow as weapons so I just go with that. If you want to use use skill to fire a bow or crossbow, go right ahead. If you have ever handled a bow or a crossbow, you might know that firing each one of them isn't much more time consuming than pulling a trigger of a gun. It's the reload time that makes the difference.

But as I said, It's just my way of reading the book and the rule. Feel free to disagree if you like

On a side note, one could also argue that throwing a NON-Weapon would also be a complex action as the rule says only throwing a throwing weapon is a simple action.

The action name is Fire Weapon but what Fire Weapon actually does is fire a ready firearm in single-shot, semi-automatic, or burst-fire mode. I have done archery before, and I know that even if all I wanted was to release as soon as I can drawn to a full pull starting with an arrow already nocked, then it would take about as long as I shoot full auto on my GPMG.

Throwing a non-specific throwing weapon is covered under Improvised Throwing Weapons Arsenal p20.

I also agree w/ Toturi on this one. It's a complex action to use a melee physical weapon as well. Bows strike me as little different.

Another point, for all those types who only get two cyberarms... your torso back muscles are very important to using a bow properly. GM's don't forget to average the arms and the torso when calculating str to use a trollbow! (I always imagine some tricked out troll w/ his new arms, using his new bow, then watching his back muscles tear off the bones from the strain.

I also agree w/ Toturi on this one. It's a complex action to use a melee physical weapon as well. Bows strike me as little different.

Another point, for all those types who only get two cyberarms... your torso back muscles are very important to using a bow properly. GM's don't forget to average the arms and the torso when calculating str to use a trollbow! (I always imagine some tricked out troll w/ his new arms, using his new bow, then watching his back muscles tear off the bones from the strain.

Now hopefully the weather tomorrow cooperates and I can stop by the archery range tomorrow for a few hours.

I'm not playing in your game and you're not playing in mine so there's no problem. My archers are just that much faster than yours

Machine guns have fixed cyclic rate, bows don't.

I too do archery; I'm currently spooling up to hunt with my bow in bare-bow fashion. I can see both sides where it could be complex action or a simple action in using a bow in combat. I think personally that it's up to the style of archery you use. Kyudo, I see as complex action type because it's more a string of ritual actions. But with styles like Mongolian and Hungarian I see as simple action, especially with the bow hand technique of drawing arrows. Like others I use them in my game as simple actions mostly for a more cinematic style than realistic. I like the idea of magic and fantasy tie-ins being able to put a lot of arrows down range.

Brent

When the first thread on the Free Action Ready Weapon came up, I saw everyone speaking of firing a bow as a Simple Action, which confused me, because I had always thought it was Complex. I then searched the book to see what action it did use, and could not find it. I have sense then searched many times, and still have yet to find it. Bows follow the rules for projectile weapons, but the only rules I can find for projectile weapon firing rates specifically refer to thrown weapons, which a bow is not.

If a developer can clear up this unclarity, it would be appreciated.

I have always played bows under the Fire Weapon action. However, after reading this thread, some quick Googling reminds me that real life trained English archers could fire 10–12 arrows per minute, which works out to one every other (three second) Combat Turn.

That certainly implies that firing a bow should be a complex action. With all the ways to reload (Ready Weapon) for free, that would reasonably mean that a trained Sixth World archer could fire one shot each Initiative Pass.

Also in real life, crossbows are harder to ready than bows, but easier to fire, suggesting a at least a Complex Action to ready, and a Simple Action to fire.

However, SR4 (p.144) says "The ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing weapons. Due to their nature, however, some special rules also apply." There are no special rules for firing such weapons, only reloading them, and modern crossbows ready themselves from a 4-round magazine. So one could reasonably argue RAW either way for bows, but crossbows seem to clearly be "firearms" both for firing and reloading the magazine.

As for non-modern crossbows, I would treat readying them as a Complex Action, although still treating them like firearms for Fire Weapon seems appropriate.

Given all of the above—and pending any directly related errata—I would rule that firing a bow (not crossbows) is a Complex Action.

Another question regarding bows - the Personalized Grip (Arsenal) grants Recoil Compensation to ranged weapons, & +1 die to melee weapons. A bow does not suffer from recoil, so the ranged modification is useless. However, a bow is not a melee weapon, and so cannot receive the +1 die. What, then, does a bow get from the Personalized Grip, & if nothing, what should it get?

You can get custom grip also to a single shot gun where it is useless as well, but it is a custom grip anyway. I'd say it gives negative pool for anyone else but other than that, it's just for your own convenience. And it shows that you value the gun even more

On the matter of bow speed, those brit archers that fired 12 shots a minute did have bit different style of using a bow. I think one can fire twice as fast but with less accuracy and when you take in account the archers on 10th century didn't have wired reflexes, it's more than possible to fire those shots with amazing speed assuming you got the arrows really ready somewhere to be pulled out with a flick of a wrist. You can only have some arrows ready like that anyway so when the few nicely placed arrows do run out, you can't just keep redying them with free action. Can't really keep them in a normal quiver to be able to fast-draw them, methinks.

Maybe bows should suffer recoil from shooting too fast and there the custom grip would help a bit?

@ BullZeye:
10-12 shots per minute is equal to Re/Load (Standard) + Fire (Complex).

With training, you can achieve 20 shots per minute: Re/Load (Free) + Fire (Complex).

That is without any form of Initiative Enhancement. If the bow firing rate is Simple Action, then an amateur can still fire 20 arrows/minute, with a trained (Free Reload) can fire 30 arrows/minute - all with a single Initiative Pass. While I believe a wired individual can easily achieve a firing rate of 30/minute, that is rather absurd for an unaugmented individual.

I treat it as a melee weapon in that regard.

Regarding the firing rate of bows, it is essentially a Complex Action to fire one; it's just split into two Simple Actions. One to grab an arrow and cock it, the other to actually let go of the string. If the former only takes a Simple Action, why on earth would firing it take longer?

I treat it as granting a +1 Strength for the purpose of calculating Range (only).

Quick question: can your "effective" strength go above your Augmented strength for the purposes of ranged weapons? Say I had a troll with 9 strength, who used Attribute Boost to raise that to 13. Could Power Throw let me treat that as more than 15?

In situations like that, sure. It's not actually boosting your Strength but giving a bonus to an effect. Subtle but notable difference. Others may disagree, though.

So it's basically an individual game ruling, with no rules for either side? Damn. My troll thrower would really benefit from a few levels of Power Throw, once he initiates again if that does work in my game.

Going strictly by RAW, I would say that Power Throw does allow the effective Strength to exceed Augmented Maximum because the character's Strength does not actually exceed his Augmented Maximum.

Exactly.

Certainly. If you are not using the Bow/Crossbow skill to shoot and instead using the Use Simple Object to use the bow by simply letting go of the string, you can do so, sure.

If you want any semblance of accuracy, you need to use the Skill.

So how long does it according to you take to fire a bow when you aim only for an instant?
If you did read what I had quoted and was commenting about, you would see my point: It takes about 3 seconds to draw a bow and fire it: twice a simple action=complex action.

You know, with this discussion about bow firing rates, etc, did anyone maybe think of making up a new martial art that specializes in the bow, and some of it's bonuses include things like picking up the rate of fire? Like was mentioned a few posts back about Mongolian, Hungarian, etc styles. Perhaps some styles emphasize things like speed over accuracy or power, some emphasize getting that one powerful shot home, some might emphasize things like pure accuracy making things like called shots easier, and so on. I'm no bow expert, but I liked to dabble in archery a few years back, and I am by far not a strong or athletic person...and I could still, if I really tried, get those arrows off fairly quickly. To a strong, fit, trained person, I could see them getting them off much, MUCH faster than I could. The training in the art could well fit that.

I might make a few myself up, but I'd want to do some reading up first on the various styles to make sure they have some semblance of making sense.

Hell, I could even see some sort of modern ''Barbarian Rider'' style used by people on motorcycles.

There is a thread somewhere here as well, btw, that managed to figure in a sort of 3/2 turns ROF or something. (As in person's first turn gets one, and their next turn they get two, and so on.)

My issue with this is the fact that arrows aren't all that easy to nock when it comes right down to it. Oh sure, when you're at the local Wapiti club and you have all bloody day you can nock those puppies easy as pie. The problem comes when you're in a hurry and getting the area around you shredded with autofire with this long lever and a 1/16th inch clamp and a 1/16th inch string, and your buddy is screaming and bleeding next to you, and the mage across the room is doing the "Gonna break something off" squint at you...
Now add that you're lining up this shot, loosing, and then ducking back down behind cover while you reach for another slim, slick, plastic and aluminum shaft with sweaty hands, it's sharp so you need to be careful, it might be barbed and thus hook in something, before you start the complex task that I described above...yeah.

Reloading bows in combat sucks.

And the same goes for for guns as well, of course. Reloading under combat conditions isn't a "simple" task by any stretch. First, despite the shaking hands, tunnel vision, and "GO! GO! GO!" running through your terror-filled mind, you need to be aware of why your gun stopped firing. Most people in a shootout remember bullets one, two, and 17 (in the case of my G17)...of magazine #3. Everything else is lost in the moment of complete terror as you fight for your life. That said, when your gun stops you do one of two things. You recognize that the slide isn't locked all the way back and tap, rack, bang. Or you realize that it is indeed locked open and push the release for your magazine/cylinder and begin your reloading sequence. Please don't mix these up during that terror-filled lightning glance as it can lead to unpleasantness on your part.

Step #1: Eject the magazine/rounds from the cylinder.
Step #2: Begin reaching for your reload(s) while hopefully keeping your eyes downrange. With the magazine/speedloader that is covered by a flap in its holder, you need to remember to lift this up so you can grab the magazine.
Step #3: Firmly grasp the correctly-oriented magazine/speedloader in a manner that is well practiced to allow you to insert it smoothly and positively as you continue to scan for threats. I'm an autoloader guy so I grasp the magazine with my index finger along the front of the magazine so I simply have to point my finger at the bottom of my grasping hand (in the case of a handgun) to get the magazine in the correct area.
Step #4: Insert that magazine/speedloader into your weapon firmly. With revolvers you will push the bullets into the chambers at this point. And don't forget to keep looking around for people trying to make you scream and bleed.
Step #5: Close the weapon via a "slingshot" from the back of the slide, pushing down the slide release lever, or closing the cylinder smoothly but firmly (NEVER, EVER "flip" a cylinder shut as it WILL ruin your weapon over time) while probably looking towards your next target at this point.
Step #6: Return your newly-loaded weapon to the firing position and recommence in ballistic mayhem.

Good thing all this shit is a "Simple Action" according to RAW, right?

Needless to say, there are those who are completely insane at reloads. Todd Jarrett is widely considered one of the best (and arguably the best) autoloading handgun speed-reloaders on the planet. This is far from typical (most combat reloads from well-trained individuals take 3-6 seconds with the vast majority being towards the high side of this scale) but I thought it would be fun for you guys to see what Handguns 6-7 (1911 platform handguns +2) looks like IRL.

Enjoy

You sure he doesn't have wired reflexes?

Exactly right. If you are drawing a bow and firing it with the intent of hitting something, you take 3 seconds. It takes another about a second and half to nock an arrow, according to RAW.

Err... so two simple actions is right, thus wired reflexes and such gives you even more shots as discussed. You got now something confused as I did say all along that it takes two simple actions to ready the bow and shoot it. With the MA/adept thingy you get even faster, thus knocking the arrow becomes a free action...

An equivalent of 2 simple actions being a complex action just to shoot the bow is right - in your own words, to draw the bow and fire it. Nocking the arrow however requires yet another simple action.

Guess I did write it wrong, but what I still mean is that it takes 2 simple actions, 1 to ready the bow to be fired and 1 to fire it. So says the book as pointed out before so I just go with that. You can make it as complex as you want tho

Note that by RAW (SR4, p.144) "The ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing weapons. Due to their nature, however, some special rules also apply." So lacking special firing rules, one would reasonably conclude that Fire Weapon does apply to bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. (It just makes bows and crossbows unrealistically fast given the ways to Ready Weapon as a Free Action.)

More realistically it should be that bows and crossbows are Readied as follows:

• Bow: "Ready Arrow" 1 Complex Action
• Crossbow (modern): As a single-shot firearm with an integral magazine.
• Crossbow (non-modern): "Ready Bolt" Extended Test, Strength+Archery (base DV, 1 Complex Action).

I would allow an Archer to roll a test (Archery+Reaction) based on the Quick Draw rules to "Ready Arrow" as a Simple Action, and would further rule that the Krav Maga Advantage (or similar ability) simply makes "Ready Arrow" a Simple Action.

Based on this I would also add KyÅ«dÅ? as a Martial Art with the Advantages: +1 die on Called Shots to target an unprotected area; +1 die on Called Shots to increase damage; Take Aim (see p. 137, SR4) becomes a Free Action; or "Ready Arrow" as a Simple Action.

All together this would let a trained Sixth World Archer shoot 1 arrow/bolt per IP.

P.S. This is still faster than a trained English archer (rate of fire, 1 arrow every 5–6 seconds), but hey it's just a game, and the bows need to be competitive with guns.

What does pull the string back on such a bow? Even tho the bolt is automatically reloaded, it's only halfway of being ready to fire again. I don't think it can be semi-auto like a gun as the self reloading doesn't quite add up for a x-bow. I'd say it's about as fast as a really big bore bolt action rifle where it takes a 30cm movement to load it and requires some amount of strength. Unless you have those repeating bows that has more than one arc all wired up to shoot couple of bolts.

But aside that, you got a point

I assume that a "modern" crossbow is a single-shot weapon in Shadowrun, and that it draws itself (meaning it is powered in some fashion). As such while firing it is a Simple Action, it may only be fired once per IP (like any SS firearm).

No. The book says you take a Simple Action to ready the bow to be fired and does not explicitly state what action it takes to actually fire it, but there is a Use Skill action that is a Complex Action. So says the book as pointed out before so I just go with that. You can make it as simple as you want though.



Fire Weapon does not apply to Projectile Weapons. Further note that within Range Combat rules themselves do not include a Fire Weapon action. So lacking special firing rules, one would reasonably conclude that Fire Weapon does apply to Projectile Weapons if such rules were in the Range Combat rules, which there isn't. If Projectile Weapons were to use Fire Weapon, then there needs be a Mode which there is not.

Further, several implications to consider if you choose to treat Projectile Weapons like Firearms, extrapolated from the precedence of using Fire Weapon to fire a bow/crossbow:

1) In what Modes may the weapon be used if Fire Weapon was to be used as the action to fire a Projectile Weapon and why does the Harpoon Gun need special rules specifying Mode then?
2) Since you can possibly hold 2 Bows, isn't it possible to use 2 Ready Weapon actions to ready both and fire both via Fire Weapon?
3) If it is possible to nock more than 1 round(arrow) at a time to a bow, isn't possible to engage multiple targets?
4) If you can fire multiple rounds(arrows/bolts) with a Projectile Weapon like a bow/crossbow, then shouldn't you have Recoil per "weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon"?

Personally I would avoid the above issues simply via the Use Skill Complex Action to address firing of Projectile Weapons.

I have one I've done so far here it is.

Khalkha (Buryat, Uryankhai)

From antiquity the people of the steppe-land have been known for there archery skill not only on foot but on horse too. With famous names like Genghis Kan and his Hun warriors had been the serge of Asia with the styles of the bow. But they were more that just archers they were warriors they fought with swords, arrows, staffs, and empty hand. They even developed there own wrestling style which was a break off the system of war.
Advantages: Reduce the ranged combat "attacker in melee combat" modifier by 1 (may be taken twice, for a cumulative modifier reduction); Take Aim (see p. 137, SR4) becomes a Free Action; or +1 die on attacks to knockdown.

I truly understand what your saying I'm a Defensive Tactics Instructor for my state, I'm also a Correctional Officer. You fine motor control goes out the window if it's not a trained skill. But you can inoculated your self to those stresses and be able to perform those skills even faces life threating encounters without fight or flight response. Plus techniques are developed to overcome some of those issues like indexing you magazine, I'm still looking into the Mongol archery because there technique of bow hand draw and I think they have a modified nock and string area for better speed.

Now we're getting into semantics since we both agree that it should take the equivalent of three simple actions to fire a bow.

1. Drawing (from quiver, etc.) and notching an arrow
2. Drawing the bowstring
3. Firing the bow

You are arguing that the rules already make 2 & 3 a "Use Skill" Complex Action (which I do not think is clear nor even intended), while I am arguing that 1 & 2 should be a "Ready Arrow" Complex Action (and that Quick Draw should be usable to combine 1 & 2 into a Simple Action).

The reason that almost everyone assumes that the SR4 wording I quoted implies that Fire Weapon does apply to bows is that in SR3 it explicitly did, while SR4 is unclear. SR3, p106:

Using Fire Weapon, a character may fire a bow-weapon (regular bow or crossbow) that has been previously made ready using the Simple Action of Ready Weapon.

So before SR4 anyone could explicitly fire one arrow per IP. If SR4 intended to change this they did not make it clear and, as I said, the first sentence of the SR4 section on bows in combat implies they did not intend to change it.

1. You can use both bow and crossbow in all possible fire modes, they just have a single shot. You can also use full auto on a single barrel shotgun if you like but it just ends up to one hell-o-a-short burst.
2. You can reload 100000 crossbows if you like but last I checked, bows don't have the ability to "hold" the arrow, so it automatically disarms itself if you let go of it. Buy shiva arms for your char and you can shoot two bows at the same time.
3. Go right ahead load lots of arrows with a bow but crossbows don't work like that. You can say it's the fubuki weapon firing a burst with all barrels so you can't target multiple targets with one shot unless they are in a row.
4. Yes it has recoil, in the following single action shot you get a -1, oh wait, you have to reload the weapon.

If you need a written rule for everything, role playing games might not be for you, dude. Got any more weird questions?

In Shadowrun, I don't need a written rule for everything, because there already is a written rule for everything, anything that doesn't have a rule doesn't exist in Shadowrun.

The weird questions come up only if you decide to stray from the RAW. Don't and there will be no need for such questions.

So what about Called Shots with Bows, Crossbows, and Thrown Weapons?

Sometimes you have to be able to see the forest for the trees.

It is clearly implied, but not explicitly detailed, that bows and crossbows are treated as single-shot ranged weapons (i.e. "firearms") except where common sense or specific rules are to the contrary. So, by RAW, bows and crossbows use Fire Weapon, and may make Called Shots.

Sorry folks, but I couldn't resist...

So because there are no rules for starvation in SR, even though they have data on food and prices thereof, Runners don't ever need to eat. Similarly, they don't need potty breaks as those aren't mentioned at all.

Those are both covered under Lifestyle. So, yes, they do exist. As for starvation, there are rules for it in Runners Companion, although if memory serves, only for the Infected. Same rules can/should apply to non-Infected (perhaps with minor modifications).