I'm with Sgt_Pedro here.

Like I said, just because you can abuse the rules, that doesn't mean you should. Especially when it's clearly an oversight by the designers. Players shouldn't make GMs reign them in when they're clearly taking advantage of some rules. It's not that hard to self-regulate or be reasonable when designing a character, even for games that are on a higher power scale than normal.

So sure, by the rules you can get away with something like that. But that doesn't make it honky dory, nor should it be some kind of "omfg it's the RAW thus you must allow it!" argument.

I do have to say that I find it rather ironic that the same people who describe a character with less than 15+ dice in their niche as "TEH SUXOR" are worried about having 20+ points in +1 DV for Unarmed Combat.

I mean, when you're already rolling an average of five-plus hits per skill test (Difficulty: Extreme +, btw) then those extra DVs are just broken! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

That's okay. I find it ironic when people assume that "be reasonable" is equivalent to "it's okay to abuse the rules this way to get a Godly number of dice, but it's not okay to abuse them this other way here." I guess the former is some hip new Internet shorthand that my feeble old brain just can't comprehend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

How is power gaming abusing the rules? It's just putting your resources towards being good at what you said you'd be good at. You wanna see abuse? Go to the WotC boards and read up on pun-pun and a variety of other infinite loop characters, as far as I've seen, Shadowrun doesn't have any of those.

"Be reasonable" is an in-context phrase. If you're playing in a game with 1,000 Karma characters who are twinked out to the max, it's reasonable to build a 1,000 Karma character who's twinked out to the max. If you're playing in a street-level game with maybe 300 BP, it's not very reasonable to have someone with all the bells and whistles mentioned in this thread.

Or you could just, you know, quit calling people unequivocal douchebags. I'm really not sure how you can spin that one merely by adding a smiley, since it's a pretty damn hardline stance.

Anyway, I don't like powergaming much personally, since I think things start to get silly past beyond certain thresholds. Of course, I keep finding out that my definition of powergaming is different from that of other people's. I don't deny that there's many areas of SR4 where deviating from the RAW can easily be a smart move for any given group. I would also like to say that if I seem stubborn to you guys when disputing certain points of the RAW it is not because I believe the RAW to be the gospel truth from which no gamer should deviate. I simply hold that the RAW is what it is, and that if we're going to have productive conversations about Shadowrun rules than we need to be honest about when we're just bringing our own houserules and biases to the table, even if it seems like every dumpshocker and their cousin has adopted our favorite pet causes.

Personally, getting more than +2 DV offends my sense of logic and internal consistency, and I would only make a character getting more than that from the martial arts quality if it was a really cheesy, ultra-powered game. I also feel the same way about empathy software, which I think is needless dice pool inflation. In SR3, I thought the pre-errata mnemonic enhancer was broken.

But I am not going to assume that someone getting +6 or +7 DV from martial arts, or empathy software for their face, is a "douchebag". It's one thing when people set out to twist or creatively interpret the rules to violate the spirit of the game. But these are straigthtforward character options! Yeah, the DV thing is nebulously worded, but someone interpreting it to allow DVs to stack is still making one of the possible logical conclusions from the text, rather than deliberately twisting it around.

I agree with the Doc that some things aren't appropriate in, say, a 300 point game. But the GM should explain that, rather than assuming anyone who does this or that is being a munchkin. Self-regulation only works when they have a good idea of what the baseline is.

Yeah, a guy bringing a +7 DV martial artist to the table may not fit the game at hand, but unless he was forewarned I don't consider such a thing to be the same as dragging out the SR equivalent of Pun-Pun. I'd just tell the player in question that I'm not comfortable with a guy's fists dealing more damage than a Volvo on impact and work with him from there.

We used to. Look up "Bloodzilla" using the search function. Also, we still have the pornomancer, a starting character with 51 dice for Seduction tests.

There's also "Mecha-Bloodzilla", a theoretical infinite loop involving Wild Sprites and a Resonance Bond. The tricky part here is that you have to keep obtaining sprites of greater and greater power; so there's a practical limit, even if there's not a theoretical one.

As far as reasonable goes, I keep it simple. I tell people what kinds of dicepools I'd like them to have, and they usually stick to it. I don't have to come up with complicated house rules, or anything of the sort. I just say: "I don't want to see a social dicepool over 15", and leave it at that. If a player ignores me, and brings a pornomancer to the table, I'll know then that I have a problem player. And I can deal with that separately.

We agree here.



You are more forgiving than I am here, I guess. You said above it offends your sense of logic. Well I agree. I just go one further and say that it's so obvious, it shouldn't even come up in an honest character submission. At least not in a game I would be running. Which is all (at this point) I'm trying to say. I also think "douchebag" is a pretty tongue in cheek insult. I have more colorful things to call someone I really don't like! (and I wasn't talking about a poster here either, in case somebody isn't getting that)



This goes without saying.

I would think this rule should work the same way that stacking recoil compensation does. Same class of modifier doesn't stack. So DVs from Martial Arts would be limited to 2 max, if you have Muay Thai or Boxing. A couple people have mentioned the other sources of DV to Unarmed Attacks, all of which I think are great ideas, and stay within the spirit of the rules.

PS - I just thought of that last bit about RC here as I head to bed. I wish I had come up with it earlier, I think it shows a pretty good RAW version of how Martial Arts bonuses should work, even if they glitched the Black Box description.

Man you guys post fast, two more got in while I was replying to one.

I like the Volvo bit. Also, don't post again, your count is at 1337 =P

Frankly, I'd have no problem with someone blowing all 35 points of qualities on martial arts, even if they're doing it to get +7 DV. Theres a reason adepts can get +6 dv with no problems at all. Because melee isn't really unbalanced, even with those sorts of bonuses. He has to run up to someone, then punch them. Typically taking 1-2 turns per enemy. (1 attack, sometimes one spent just moving to get in range repeat). On the other hand, the sam, with his fancy heavy pistol that cost him a couple hundred nuyen, can take 2 shots, for 7P each. 14P total (and thats only assuming the 1 net hit required to hit the target). Melee man? even adept melee man at +12P? Wow, at strength 3, +1 for the net hit thats... 15S..... And he has to get up close and personal, and can't easily switch targets. Broken? Hardly. Imbalanced? Not even.

I'm just going to sit in the corner and laugh and y'all will have to trust me that I deserve it.

Never is a long time.

Anyone who declares that anyone is unequivocally a douchebag, despite the RAW sans house rules, is undeniably a non-RAW-compliant infidel douchebag that deserves to burn in hell for an eternity =P.

Provocative posts with smileys are still provocative posts.

Yes, if the GM institutes a house rule that limits the dice pool, then it is a house rule. But without house rules, DV stacking from multiple Martial Arts is perfectly plausible to me, remember it is not 1 punch or 1 kick. If you have spent 35BP(which is more than the equivalent of learning a Rating 6 skill) learn how to milk every every motion of yours in a fight for maximum lethality, I fail to see any credible reason for disallowing it(short of a house rule) even if the game is a 100 BP game.

I think you left out a few adjectives.

Just remember folks:

The Internet is Serious Business.

Topic: Martial Arts are an "add-on". If you want to use the rules to build your punchomancer or whatever the hell, be my guest. Just not at my game table.

Quit calling people douchebags.

Sometimes it would be nice to log on to Dumpshock and not have to tell people not to do things they obviously shouldn't do. Occassioanlly.

Look at it this way:

A troll adept with Critical Strike, bone density, and hardliner gloves can hit for a lot more than 7P in damage. Why make such a big deal out of it?

Well, I think one of the reasons I wanted to limit it, was that in the other ways, they pay a lot more for it. (This is with my reasoning, btw. It may not gel with other people's reasoning or that of general humanity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

I'll use a human. A human adept with Critical Strike 6 paid 5 BPs for the Adept(or 10 Karma), and 65 BPs for Magic 6(or 60 Karma.) Their Strength is, say, 5(40 Bps or 42 Karma.) The hardliners are negligible(100, that's 1 BP/Karma). The final tally: 116BPs/113 Karma, damage: 10P(3 base+6+1.)

A human sam gets Bone Density 4(80,000, +3 damage, 16 BPs or 32 Karma), 5 Strength(40 BP/42 Karma), Hardliners(1 BP/Karma), and Muscle Augmentation 4(28,000-12 Karma or 6 BPs). His final damage: 5+3+1=9P. Total Cost: 108,000 nuyen, 2 Essence, 87 Karma or 63 BPs.

Human 3 has a 3 Strength(20 BP/15 Karma), and takes 7 levels of a martial art(35 BP/70 Karma), and 1 for the hardliners. Total Cost: 56 BP or 86 Karma. Damage: 9P. The third guy pays far less for the same DV. Ok, it's another means to an end.

We'll even say human 4, the Adept with Bone Density 3. Add 60,000 nuyen into that mix and the appropriate Karma/BP cost(12 BP, 24 Karma), knock off 1 level of Critical Strike(since Magic is now 5). They would be 3+2+5+1=11P. 1 more total.

On TOP of all of this, when you start mixing the two, it gets really crazy. Say the first human above spends the rest of his + qualities on +6 more DV. 16P. The second one could buy the full on +7 DV and end up with the same 16P.

I guess, as a melee fan, even though it has it's disadvantages, I can't see how, say, someone can't be happy with the first adept having a ''paltry'' 12P with +2 DV, or a ''crappy'' 11P with the cybered guy if he's limited to +2. That's *big*. In my time playing melee characters, I found being able to hit harder than a Panther cannon is more than enough in about any situation I have been in(of course, the PAC has that heavy weapon hardened armor penetration going, too.) My cybered characters end up around 9-11 damage, and with a nice dice pool, it's hard to resist that. Even without AP.

Again, when I look at a little old 1 strength man with Bone Density 3, Hardliners and DV+2 from a martial art punching for 6P, that's not crappy either, given the shape the person is in.

Again, this is coming from someone who loves to play melee characters, so I can assure I'm pretty unbiased here; i'm not some anti-melee fanatic trying to make it suck. But, everyone's table is their own; if they want to allow the stacking that's fine. I just believe that this is one of those things where I don't think you could blame someone for wanting to reign it in a bit, and I guess i like the idea of the ''master martial artist'' learning all kinds of things, like learning better blocking, parrying, disarming, AND doing more damage.

Nope, they're just brawlers and mindless thugs who cross trained to learn how to man wrestle and play kissy face on the mat when taken down. Old UFC where the tiny little asian dudes had tons of one hit knockouts as big guys rushed in swinging were a better example of using the best a style has to offer.

But I do agree with the flow of unarmed combat and the multiple attacks as discussed in the book. Makes sense considering with more training you learn how to attack faster and more efficiently. My argument more or less falls apart when one can't apply it to single blows.

But, the amount of DV is rendered completely null and void when compared to the awesomeness that is nerve strike. Why bother punching for damage when you paralyze them and take your time to punch them unconscious slowly after they can't defend?

It bugs people becasue it lets a completly mundane character do things that are not possible in real life.

Suspension of disbelief lets us except all sorts of magical, and metahuman things, but telling me that the real life equivalent of 70 karma spread out over six martial arts lets you get hits 3 or 4 times better than the same effort in one martial art breaks my suspension of disbelief.

It's the same reason I can mostly except an adept archer getting 160 shots a minute, and it still bugs me that by RAW an uncybered mundane can get 30 shots per minute. In real life trained military archers could only do around half that, average was 10–12 shots per minute.

Problem with only comparing the melee damage is this.


And for no increase in BPs, that adept can get Improved Reflexes 2. That brings his damage up to 30P a combat turn. With the remaning points, he can get 3 levels in improved ability unarmed, for another net hit per attack, (as well as hitting more often).


Why use bone density? Same sam gets a cyber spur (1800 nuyen, 1BP/1Karma) 5 Strength (40BP/42 Karma) and muscle aug 4 (28k, 12 Karma or 6 BP). Final damage is 9 + 3 = 8P. Total cost, 29,800. Essence 0.95, and 55 karma or 47 BP. 8P damage, sure, but now he gets a reach bonus too.


Still not as cheap as just the spur and other ware, and now he misses out on qualities, which can be very useful.


And he can still pick up improved reflexes and improved ability unarmed, and far suprass the sams/martial art only guys.


I guess you have a problem with people doing 16P in melee? I can take a troll (40BP/0Karma) Str 9 (40BP/90karma) buy a combat axe (1BP/Karma) muscle aug 4 (28k, 6BP, 12karma) and be doing 11P a swing with 3 reach and -1 ap.

Or, you know, anyone can do that much with a number of firearms.


I still think that its perfectly applicable in that its a 3 second melee attack. Not one hit like many people apparently seem to envision.

Have you ever seen a demonstration of the one-inch punch?

I dummied for one, a few times. Let me preface this by saying that I weighed over 220 lbs (100kg) at the time. I braced myself into a karate-style forward stance-- a stance that doesn't let you move well, but also makes you hard to move. I had a phone book pressed to my chest, and I was braced.

The guy said: "OK, I'm going to hit you at about 20%" The next thing I know is, "BAM!" I'm suddenly hovering in midair, like Wile E. Coyote. Ever so slowly, gravity reasserts itself, and I topple backwards.

I also got to see a demonstration done my the master of the one-inch punch, James DeMile. He had one guy, braced by two others, with a chair two meters behind the last guy. When the punch landed, the third guy ended up in the chair.

So, in other words, I can easily believe that someone can punch that hard, especially in a fantasy setting. The one-inch punch might only be a stage presentation, but it does demonstrate how to build up a lot of striking power in a very small area.

I guess I just can't explain it, then. It's not damage I have a problem with. It's not even high damage(11P with an axe, 8P with a spur, etc.) It's...I don't know. I mean, you'd think a melee fan would be drooling at the ability to be able to be hit for 16P easily, but...I dunno. If someone can tell me what my problem is with it, I'm all ears.

I guess, if I had to take a wild stab, it's that it's like Dikote for unarmed-it's a ''must have''. Again, if I saw other uses of martial arts, and these ''super +6 DV stacking'' was reserved for once in a while with a cool concept, I might be better with it-but when the first thing someone does is toss all of their qualities into DV(when I know that most martial artists would probably learn a variety of things INCLUDING damage.)

Funny thing is, more people have a problem with Dikote than they do with people always stacking +7DV. Dikote helped melee, too. I suppose that cost thing I was talking about came into play, there(Dikote being cheap, and this being more BPs or something. But it was still a must-have, and that was the main argument I always heard against Dikote.)

But you know? If I can see some more arguements like above(the one-inch punch demonstration), I might be convinced otherwise. Who knows. I mean, I don't mind bending if things can be told in different ways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, personally, I've never seen the utility of stacking +7 DV from martial arts. I'd much rather take benefits like bonuses to block/parry/dodge or damaging with a disarm, readying weapons for a free action, or focusing more on the maneuvers. The +7 DV thing is nice, but doesn't have a lot of praticality in it.

I kinda think that way, too. I mean...ok. I could take +5 DV and hit for 14P, which is a Panther Cannon +5, or I can take +2, hit for 11P, which is a Panther Cannon +2. Also, I can have +2 to Surprise Attacks(so they can't defend against that 11P very well), and damage them on a disarm. Which is much more useful, IMO. In a way, even more powerful. Theoretically it shouldn't bother me, especially with my usual lean attitude on GMing(ruling usually in favor of the PCs on a confusing rule, no Availability limit at chargen, etc.) but it just sorta irked me to always see it, and not even bad. Kind of like someone poking you with a chopstick with no apparent reason.

And no, not a chopstick with +6 DV. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)