On page 156 of Arsenal the martial arts positive quality is 5 to 20 bp but is it per style? I've seen some builds here on dumpshock that have 35bp worth of martial arts but I rule in my game that 20bp is max but you can take 4 different styles 5bp each but no more than that 20bp.

Which is it? Limiting it to 20bp would remove that +7P damage stacking...

It's 5-20 per style. Some don't even have more than three bonuses and would be silly to take up to 20. Being that it says you can take multiple styles as long as you spend the BP or karma to learn that style, then you get the bonuses. Even though learning specific styles just to take the damage mods is quite a bit of munchkining, it's allowed by RAW.

20 BP per style.

See, by RAW, you can take 7 different martial arts and take +1 DV per martial art. I say by RAW, because they don't *forbid* it.

You can, though, take 20 BP and ''max out'' a martial art. So someone can, say, take Kickboxing: 4(20 BP), and have all four of the benefits. But it's rare when someone does that, since DV stacking is too tempting. This is why a lot of us just houserule ''+2 DV, and that's it. You can get it from 1 martial art, or 2 martial arts, but beyond that, you have to pick other abilities.''

But someone can take 1 martial art at level 4 for 20, and another at level 3 for 15, and have a bunch of different benefits. (Someone with Kickboxing 4 and Carromeleg 3 would get all four Kickboxing benefits, and 3 of the 4 Carromeleg benefits.)

Hope that makes sense. I actually find it a better houserule, rather than limit martial arts to 20 BP total, just limit the DV stacking to +2, and if they want to get the other abilities, they can knock themselves out. But if 20 BP of MA works in your game better, that's cool too.

That 35 BP limit is only for starting characters. With enough Karma, a character could be a master of every form known to man

I keep the limit to 20 BP per style as there are real world examples of fighters with mastery or training in several different styles. El's houserule to capping the bonus to DV is a more acceptable fix, imo. There's really only so much training one can have in inflicting pain afterall. Real world styles generally have similar methods of increasing the pain of their attacks.

I agree that there is probably some wise old master out there with a ton of karma invested in lots of styles.

The DV houserule is, as I said in another thread, usually against my ''leaner, slighty more beefed up campaigns'', but it was just one of those oddities that didn't sit well with me. You know, if I saw people, say, take all kinds of advantages with the martial arts(+2 DV, +2 Surprises, +1 Block, +1 Knockdown, etc), I might not have instigated the houserule. But all I saw were people only taking constant +DVs, unless they were Firefight/Krav Maga(where it's -3 Melee, Ready Weapon Free Action.) It made me sort of feel like it became the ''must have.'' Again, I've made some cybered sams who can hit for 9+ DV, and that's only taking +2 DV with the martial arts. It's not even that hard to get a sam around there, and it doesn't require a lot of twinking. Same for an adept.

I also pointed out before, +2 DV is still excellent. That 2 strength old master with 2 levels of bone density(helps the pesky old bones out), and some hardliners, and +2 DV to his art is smacking you for 5P. That ain't bad for a skinny old geezer. In fact, that's as hard as a 9 Strength troll. It makes sense you should be allowed to beef the DV somewhat, but as I was ranting a bit before, I just grew a little tired of only ever seeing +6 DVs stacking up. I'm even totally cool with someone ONLY taking the +2 DV. I'm perfectly fine with someone taking Strength 7, Bone Density 4 and +2 DV with hardliners on top of it. At least that costs some more resources and some essence.

But when it's ''only'' +6 with all the other options, it's like ''dude, mix and match. Accessorize a bit.''

I cap it at +4 as opposed to +2, but I think it does need a cap of some sort.

Chris

RAW does explicitly allow stacking the benefits of Advantages (with the resulting die/DV bonus limited to the characters relevant combat skill rating)

However my group has always interpreted that to mean that complementary Advantages from different arts may be used together, but that if two arts have the exact same Advantage, than the stated limits of the martial art still exist.

This only maters for:

• +1 die on Attacks to Knockdown (1,1,1,1,1)
• +1 die on Called Shots to disarm (1,1)
• +1 die on Called Shots to increase attack damage (1,1)
• +1 die on Defense Tests against unarmed attacks (2,1)
• +1 die on Full Parry (1,1,1,1)
• +1 die on Gymnastics Dodge (1,1)
• +1 die on melee block (but not dodge or parry) Defense Tests (2,1)
• +1 die on melee dodge (but not block or parry) Defense Tests (2,1,1)
• +1 die on Subduing (1,1,2)
• +1 die on Surprise Tests when initiating an attack (2,1)
• +1 DV on Blades attacks (1,1)
• +1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks (2,1,1,2,1,1)
• Reduce the ranged combat “attacker in melee combatâ€? modifier by 1 (2,1,1)

For example, there are three martial art styles that grant "+1 die on Subduing" but only one lets you take it twice (noted as 1,1,2 above). By strict RAW one could argue for taking four levels, but we would only allow two.

To us "stacking" means combining different but overlapping Advantages, so if you knew "+1 die on Defense Tests against unarmed attacks", "+1 die on Full Dodge", and "+1 die on melee dodge" (twice), you could get +4 dice for full dodging when your armed and your opponent is not.

Our thinking is that if you could actually get "+1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks" seven times, than past masters would have studied this and individual styles would not be limited to only one or two levels.

Another example of stacking we would allow would be that if a character knew both "+1 die on Called Shots to disarm" and "+1 die on Called Shots to increase attack damage" they could get +2 dice on a called shot to the hand of a target with intent to hurt the target enough that they drop their weapon.

This is correct. People often take RAW to mean "exact text" rather than "exact spirit". If you're using a punch you picked up from your Boxing class, the TKD backfist isn't making that punch stronger. The spirit of the rules is OBVIOUSLY as MJBurrage wrote above. Anything else is a douchebag player trying to take advantage of the spirit of a nice rule addition.

Or a new player, who's used to a powergaming atmosphere. Or an older player, who's experience in Shadowrun is that you need to munchkin to survive. Or someone who's suffered under a GM that liked to take everything conceivable away from the players as possible.

It's not always the player's fault. There's douchebag GMs as well.

Maybe thats because RAW stands for Rules As Written and not Rules As Intended.

Plus, the game is rather abstract. You could have +4 DV as opposed to +2 DV because you're so good you can set your opponents up and cherry pick the hypothetical "perfect" attack combination for any given situation. You're a TKD and Boxing master? Maybe you uppercut the guy because he left his chin hanging out there and you follow it up with a quick kick to the gut as his guard opens up. After all, do you really think that a mundane martial arts master with no extra passes takes an entire 3 second combat turn to deliver a single no frills strike or do you think he does whatever it is he does and then the results are reflected in the DV? I can't help but think that the latter makes more sense. Now, I agree that it doesn't make sense that the man's boxing strike is any more effective just because he knows how to do that sidekick, but that's something that should really only matter in a boxing match where he limits his repertoire in accordance to the rules. In that case it makes plenty of sense to limit the DV to reflect what he is capable of when limiting himself to boxing. So, while I respect the decision of any GM who nerfs the RAW in the name of passing the sniff test (suspension of disbelief is nothing if not subjective, after all) and balancing the game, I must stridently disagree with anyone who claims that any other school of thought is only supported by douchebags. We should be better and smarter than that.

I stand corrected as to the RAW part. I just reread the black box where it explicitly states the bonuses stack. But, it's called an optional rule for a reason, and my ruling as a GM stands with MJBurrage. It makes so little sense to me to let someone take +7(or whatever you can get) DV just from MA that it never even crossed my mind it would be written otherwise.

Yes, as with many things, it -can- cause game balance issues if the GM doesn't take control over how munchkin of a game he wants to have. Though, letting people get +7 DV from qualities isn't any worse than letting them get +6DV from being an adept.

Honestly, I don't think just douchebags do it. As said, i mean, it's there, it doesn't say no, and it's tempting. But...I do believe, still, there is some 'spirit'' to follow, and jamming 7 DV onto an attack like that sorta, somehow...I guess it's just personal. Like, if someone brings ''max power, elven former company man'' to the table, and he has Muscle Augmentation/Toner, a Suprathyroid, Bone Density 4 and some Wired Reflexes, with +2 DV on martial arts, I'm like ''Ok! Max Power kicks some ass.''

But if someone brings someone with 7 different DV stacking martial arts and stacks them all up, it irks me...even if ''Max Power'' is doing the same DV via ware.

Something just dawned on me. You have to remember that those bonuses apply only when using those martial arts styles. If you have a dabbling of 5 different martial arts styles, you still have to pick which martial art style you're using for the attack. At most one can end up with a +1 or +2 DV for whichever style they're using at that time. It doesn't take an action (free, simple, or non) to change what style you're using, but you have to at least mention which one you're using to explain what kind of attack you're using.

Just because the designers didn't have the foresight (as is the case in many, many places in SR4), that doesn't mean abusing the rules is anything other than abusing the rules.

Logic and maturity prevails!

No, you don't. You use the applicable Close Combat skill and then you add the bonuses and penalties which apply to the situation. There's no "Pick one Martial Art to apply" put in at any time, although your GM may disallow your TKD bonuses if you happen to be fighting in waist deep water and are in no position to kick effectively. Again, the system works fine from a thematic point of view provided you chuck the conceit that opponents stand there like rock 'em sock 'em robots trading single, unadorned strikes at eachother once per three seconds. When you go in with a basic unarmed combat attack action, you're basically just announcing that you're moving in in order to do whatever it is you do that lets you threaten your damage value and imagination takes it from there.

Not by RAW. By logic and fair balance of gameplay though...

As Drogos said earlier, "Real world styles generally have similar methods of increasing the pain of their attacks."

Learning a new technique for increasing damage that is incredibly similar to your old method for increasing damage isn't going to stack for more damage. It'll be more or less about the same.

In the other direction, learning a completely different way to apply heavy amounts of damage to a technique would be completely different and probably not even utilize your older methods of application. If boxing teaches you wide swinging hooks to get momentum in your arm to add extra power, the straight line put your body behind it applications of Karate won't stack to help make a combined attack of the two styles any better.

If that's what you want to do, then do it. I just get tired of people coming in and implying "This is how it is done" when it's simply not so by the RAW.

Pedro: I also really wish you would check in the maturity and logic comments at the door. It's needlessly condescending.

You cannot abuse the rules without using the rules either. Without a clear rule that defines abuse, while there may be abuse of the rules but you can only determine abuse in an ad hoc manner. Which in itself should be an abuse of the rules but is not because there is no definition of abuse within the rules.

By RAW, you do not have to 'pick a style.' +1DV is +1DV. RAI... who knows? Common sense, limiting DV bonus to 2-4 seems sensible.



Why choose? 6DV from adept and 6DV from martial arts! Combine and conquer!

Yet in Shadowrun, a close combat attack is not a single punch (or even a single successful punch) or kick, it is a series of attacks amalgamated into a Complex action. In effect, you could combine boxing's wide hook with karate's straight line strike into these series of punches and kicks to deal more damage. You could hit your opponent with a roundhouse kick, then an uppercut, followed by a muay thai elbow strike in a single attack.

There are already mixed martial arts in real life. UFC fighters combine the best of various styles so that they can hit, grapple, and defend effectively against either. Someone getting, say, +4 to blocking from several different martial arts is hardly "abusing" the rules when the rules explicitly state that it works that way. If you think that's too powerful, then you can either not use the martial arts rules, or house rule them differently. But don't try to sell me some supposed "intent" of the rules that simply isn't there.

DV's, however, are a nebulous area. That sidebar states that bonuses stack, but then in the next sentence, it talks about dice modifiers. So either DV's stack and they phrased it clumsily, they don't stack, or they aren't limited at all, since they don't affect dice pools. I choose the middle option, which tops it off at +2. I don't find it logical that martial arts skill could give you a higher bonus to your damage code than a soft-maxed adept could get. +2 to DV already lets someone with a Strength of 1 hit for the same damage as someone with a Strength of 6, or lets someone with a Strength of 6 hit for the same damage as a troll with a Strength of 10.

But if I ran a campaign, I would let the players know this rules interpretation ahead of time, and I wouldn't automatically assume someone trying to max out his DV was a raging munchkin, any more than someone getting muscle toner or a smartlink for their street samurai would be.

My problem is with the argument that RAW means "I can do this, it says so" attitude. I would never play with someone like that. So I guess it doesn't matter if he and I disagree.

But, anybody who puts:

Martial Arts (35BP)
- Boxing (+2 DV w/ Unarmed)
- Karate (+1 DV w/ Unarmed)
- Kung Fu (+1 DV w/ Unarmed)
- Muay Thai (+2 DV w/ Unarmed)
- Tae Kwon Do (+1 DV w/ Unarmed)

on a character sheet, is unequivocally a douchebag =P

Whip: I tend to forget people don't see the grin on my face when writing on the interweb. Text has the annoying habit of not conveying emotion very well. I'll just put more smiley faces in my posts or something.

I'm with Sgt_Pedro here.

Like I said, just because you can abuse the rules, that doesn't mean you should. Especially when it's clearly an oversight by the designers. Players shouldn't make GMs reign them in when they're clearly taking advantage of some rules. It's not that hard to self-regulate or be reasonable when designing a character, even for games that are on a higher power scale than normal.

So sure, by the rules you can get away with something like that. But that doesn't make it honky dory, nor should it be some kind of "omfg it's the RAW thus you must allow it!" argument.

I do have to say that I find it rather ironic that the same people who describe a character with less than 15+ dice in their niche as "TEH SUXOR" are worried about having 20+ points in +1 DV for Unarmed Combat.

I mean, when you're already rolling an average of five-plus hits per skill test (Difficulty: Extreme +, btw) then those extra DVs are just broken!

That's okay. I find it ironic when people assume that "be reasonable" is equivalent to "it's okay to abuse the rules this way to get a Godly number of dice, but it's not okay to abuse them this other way here." I guess the former is some hip new Internet shorthand that my feeble old brain just can't comprehend.

How is power gaming abusing the rules? It's just putting your resources towards being good at what you said you'd be good at. You wanna see abuse? Go to the WotC boards and read up on pun-pun and a variety of other infinite loop characters, as far as I've seen, Shadowrun doesn't have any of those.

"Be reasonable" is an in-context phrase. If you're playing in a game with 1,000 Karma characters who are twinked out to the max, it's reasonable to build a 1,000 Karma character who's twinked out to the max. If you're playing in a street-level game with maybe 300 BP, it's not very reasonable to have someone with all the bells and whistles mentioned in this thread.

Or you could just, you know, quit calling people unequivocal douchebags. I'm really not sure how you can spin that one merely by adding a smiley, since it's a pretty damn hardline stance.

Anyway, I don't like powergaming much personally, since I think things start to get silly past beyond certain thresholds. Of course, I keep finding out that my definition of powergaming is different from that of other people's. I don't deny that there's many areas of SR4 where deviating from the RAW can easily be a smart move for any given group. I would also like to say that if I seem stubborn to you guys when disputing certain points of the RAW it is not because I believe the RAW to be the gospel truth from which no gamer should deviate. I simply hold that the RAW is what it is, and that if we're going to have productive conversations about Shadowrun rules than we need to be honest about when we're just bringing our own houserules and biases to the table, even if it seems like every dumpshocker and their cousin has adopted our favorite pet causes.

Personally, getting more than +2 DV offends my sense of logic and internal consistency, and I would only make a character getting more than that from the martial arts quality if it was a really cheesy, ultra-powered game. I also feel the same way about empathy software, which I think is needless dice pool inflation. In SR3, I thought the pre-errata mnemonic enhancer was broken.

But I am not going to assume that someone getting +6 or +7 DV from martial arts, or empathy software for their face, is a "douchebag". It's one thing when people set out to twist or creatively interpret the rules to violate the spirit of the game. But these are straigthtforward character options! Yeah, the DV thing is nebulously worded, but someone interpreting it to allow DVs to stack is still making one of the possible logical conclusions from the text, rather than deliberately twisting it around.

I agree with the Doc that some things aren't appropriate in, say, a 300 point game. But the GM should explain that, rather than assuming anyone who does this or that is being a munchkin. Self-regulation only works when they have a good idea of what the baseline is.

Yeah, a guy bringing a +7 DV martial artist to the table may not fit the game at hand, but unless he was forewarned I don't consider such a thing to be the same as dragging out the SR equivalent of Pun-Pun. I'd just tell the player in question that I'm not comfortable with a guy's fists dealing more damage than a Volvo on impact and work with him from there.

We used to. Look up "Bloodzilla" using the search function. Also, we still have the pornomancer, a starting character with 51 dice for Seduction tests.

There's also "Mecha-Bloodzilla", a theoretical infinite loop involving Wild Sprites and a Resonance Bond. The tricky part here is that you have to keep obtaining sprites of greater and greater power; so there's a practical limit, even if there's not a theoretical one.

As far as reasonable goes, I keep it simple. I tell people what kinds of dicepools I'd like them to have, and they usually stick to it. I don't have to come up with complicated house rules, or anything of the sort. I just say: "I don't want to see a social dicepool over 15", and leave it at that. If a player ignores me, and brings a pornomancer to the table, I'll know then that I have a problem player. And I can deal with that separately.

We agree here.



You are more forgiving than I am here, I guess. You said above it offends your sense of logic. Well I agree. I just go one further and say that it's so obvious, it shouldn't even come up in an honest character submission. At least not in a game I would be running. Which is all (at this point) I'm trying to say. I also think "douchebag" is a pretty tongue in cheek insult. I have more colorful things to call someone I really don't like! (and I wasn't talking about a poster here either, in case somebody isn't getting that)



This goes without saying.

I would think this rule should work the same way that stacking recoil compensation does. Same class of modifier doesn't stack. So DVs from Martial Arts would be limited to 2 max, if you have Muay Thai or Boxing. A couple people have mentioned the other sources of DV to Unarmed Attacks, all of which I think are great ideas, and stay within the spirit of the rules.

PS - I just thought of that last bit about RC here as I head to bed. I wish I had come up with it earlier, I think it shows a pretty good RAW version of how Martial Arts bonuses should work, even if they glitched the Black Box description.

Man you guys post fast, two more got in while I was replying to one.

I like the Volvo bit. Also, don't post again, your count is at 1337 =P

Frankly, I'd have no problem with someone blowing all 35 points of qualities on martial arts, even if they're doing it to get +7 DV. Theres a reason adepts can get +6 dv with no problems at all. Because melee isn't really unbalanced, even with those sorts of bonuses. He has to run up to someone, then punch them. Typically taking 1-2 turns per enemy. (1 attack, sometimes one spent just moving to get in range repeat). On the other hand, the sam, with his fancy heavy pistol that cost him a couple hundred nuyen, can take 2 shots, for 7P each. 14P total (and thats only assuming the 1 net hit required to hit the target). Melee man? even adept melee man at +12P? Wow, at strength 3, +1 for the net hit thats... 15S..... And he has to get up close and personal, and can't easily switch targets. Broken? Hardly. Imbalanced? Not even.

I'm just going to sit in the corner and laugh and y'all will have to trust me that I deserve it.

Never is a long time.

Anyone who declares that anyone is unequivocally a douchebag, despite the RAW sans house rules, is undeniably a non-RAW-compliant infidel douchebag that deserves to burn in hell for an eternity =P.

Provocative posts with smileys are still provocative posts.

Yes, if the GM institutes a house rule that limits the dice pool, then it is a house rule. But without house rules, DV stacking from multiple Martial Arts is perfectly plausible to me, remember it is not 1 punch or 1 kick. If you have spent 35BP(which is more than the equivalent of learning a Rating 6 skill) learn how to milk every every motion of yours in a fight for maximum lethality, I fail to see any credible reason for disallowing it(short of a house rule) even if the game is a 100 BP game.

I think you left out a few adjectives.

Just remember folks:

The Internet is Serious Business.

Topic: Martial Arts are an "add-on". If you want to use the rules to build your punchomancer or whatever the hell, be my guest. Just not at my game table.

Quit calling people douchebags.

Sometimes it would be nice to log on to Dumpshock and not have to tell people not to do things they obviously shouldn't do. Occassioanlly.

Look at it this way:

A troll adept with Critical Strike, bone density, and hardliner gloves can hit for a lot more than 7P in damage. Why make such a big deal out of it?

Well, I think one of the reasons I wanted to limit it, was that in the other ways, they pay a lot more for it. (This is with my reasoning, btw. It may not gel with other people's reasoning or that of general humanity. )

I'll use a human. A human adept with Critical Strike 6 paid 5 BPs for the Adept(or 10 Karma), and 65 BPs for Magic 6(or 60 Karma.) Their Strength is, say, 5(40 Bps or 42 Karma.) The hardliners are negligible(100, that's 1 BP/Karma). The final tally: 116BPs/113 Karma, damage: 10P(3 base+6+1.)

A human sam gets Bone Density 4(80,000, +3 damage, 16 BPs or 32 Karma), 5 Strength(40 BP/42 Karma), Hardliners(1 BP/Karma), and Muscle Augmentation 4(28,000-12 Karma or 6 BPs). His final damage: 5+3+1=9P. Total Cost: 108,000 nuyen, 2 Essence, 87 Karma or 63 BPs.

Human 3 has a 3 Strength(20 BP/15 Karma), and takes 7 levels of a martial art(35 BP/70 Karma), and 1 for the hardliners. Total Cost: 56 BP or 86 Karma. Damage: 9P. The third guy pays far less for the same DV. Ok, it's another means to an end.

We'll even say human 4, the Adept with Bone Density 3. Add 60,000 nuyen into that mix and the appropriate Karma/BP cost(12 BP, 24 Karma), knock off 1 level of Critical Strike(since Magic is now 5). They would be 3+2+5+1=11P. 1 more total.

On TOP of all of this, when you start mixing the two, it gets really crazy. Say the first human above spends the rest of his + qualities on +6 more DV. 16P. The second one could buy the full on +7 DV and end up with the same 16P.

I guess, as a melee fan, even though it has it's disadvantages, I can't see how, say, someone can't be happy with the first adept having a ''paltry'' 12P with +2 DV, or a ''crappy'' 11P with the cybered guy if he's limited to +2. That's *big*. In my time playing melee characters, I found being able to hit harder than a Panther cannon is more than enough in about any situation I have been in(of course, the PAC has that heavy weapon hardened armor penetration going, too.) My cybered characters end up around 9-11 damage, and with a nice dice pool, it's hard to resist that. Even without AP.

Again, when I look at a little old 1 strength man with Bone Density 3, Hardliners and DV+2 from a martial art punching for 6P, that's not crappy either, given the shape the person is in.

Again, this is coming from someone who loves to play melee characters, so I can assure I'm pretty unbiased here; i'm not some anti-melee fanatic trying to make it suck. But, everyone's table is their own; if they want to allow the stacking that's fine. I just believe that this is one of those things where I don't think you could blame someone for wanting to reign it in a bit, and I guess i like the idea of the ''master martial artist'' learning all kinds of things, like learning better blocking, parrying, disarming, AND doing more damage.

Nope, they're just brawlers and mindless thugs who cross trained to learn how to man wrestle and play kissy face on the mat when taken down. Old UFC where the tiny little asian dudes had tons of one hit knockouts as big guys rushed in swinging were a better example of using the best a style has to offer.

But I do agree with the flow of unarmed combat and the multiple attacks as discussed in the book. Makes sense considering with more training you learn how to attack faster and more efficiently. My argument more or less falls apart when one can't apply it to single blows.

But, the amount of DV is rendered completely null and void when compared to the awesomeness that is nerve strike. Why bother punching for damage when you paralyze them and take your time to punch them unconscious slowly after they can't defend?

It bugs people becasue it lets a completly mundane character do things that are not possible in real life.

Suspension of disbelief lets us except all sorts of magical, and metahuman things, but telling me that the real life equivalent of 70 karma spread out over six martial arts lets you get hits 3 or 4 times better than the same effort in one martial art breaks my suspension of disbelief.

It's the same reason I can mostly except an adept archer getting 160 shots a minute, and it still bugs me that by RAW an uncybered mundane can get 30 shots per minute. In real life trained military archers could only do around half that, average was 10–12 shots per minute.

Problem with only comparing the melee damage is this.


And for no increase in BPs, that adept can get Improved Reflexes 2. That brings his damage up to 30P a combat turn. With the remaning points, he can get 3 levels in improved ability unarmed, for another net hit per attack, (as well as hitting more often).


Why use bone density? Same sam gets a cyber spur (1800 nuyen, 1BP/1Karma) 5 Strength (40BP/42 Karma) and muscle aug 4 (28k, 12 Karma or 6 BP). Final damage is 9 + 3 = 8P. Total cost, 29,800. Essence 0.95, and 55 karma or 47 BP. 8P damage, sure, but now he gets a reach bonus too.


Still not as cheap as just the spur and other ware, and now he misses out on qualities, which can be very useful.


And he can still pick up improved reflexes and improved ability unarmed, and far suprass the sams/martial art only guys.


I guess you have a problem with people doing 16P in melee? I can take a troll (40BP/0Karma) Str 9 (40BP/90karma) buy a combat axe (1BP/Karma) muscle aug 4 (28k, 6BP, 12karma) and be doing 11P a swing with 3 reach and -1 ap.

Or, you know, anyone can do that much with a number of firearms.


I still think that its perfectly applicable in that its a 3 second melee attack. Not one hit like many people apparently seem to envision.

Have you ever seen a demonstration of the one-inch punch?

I dummied for one, a few times. Let me preface this by saying that I weighed over 220 lbs (100kg) at the time. I braced myself into a karate-style forward stance-- a stance that doesn't let you move well, but also makes you hard to move. I had a phone book pressed to my chest, and I was braced.

The guy said: "OK, I'm going to hit you at about 20%" The next thing I know is, "BAM!" I'm suddenly hovering in midair, like Wile E. Coyote. Ever so slowly, gravity reasserts itself, and I topple backwards.

I also got to see a demonstration done my the master of the one-inch punch, James DeMile. He had one guy, braced by two others, with a chair two meters behind the last guy. When the punch landed, the third guy ended up in the chair.

So, in other words, I can easily believe that someone can punch that hard, especially in a fantasy setting. The one-inch punch might only be a stage presentation, but it does demonstrate how to build up a lot of striking power in a very small area.

I guess I just can't explain it, then. It's not damage I have a problem with. It's not even high damage(11P with an axe, 8P with a spur, etc.) It's...I don't know. I mean, you'd think a melee fan would be drooling at the ability to be able to be hit for 16P easily, but...I dunno. If someone can tell me what my problem is with it, I'm all ears.

I guess, if I had to take a wild stab, it's that it's like Dikote for unarmed-it's a ''must have''. Again, if I saw other uses of martial arts, and these ''super +6 DV stacking'' was reserved for once in a while with a cool concept, I might be better with it-but when the first thing someone does is toss all of their qualities into DV(when I know that most martial artists would probably learn a variety of things INCLUDING damage.)

Funny thing is, more people have a problem with Dikote than they do with people always stacking +7DV. Dikote helped melee, too. I suppose that cost thing I was talking about came into play, there(Dikote being cheap, and this being more BPs or something. But it was still a must-have, and that was the main argument I always heard against Dikote.)

But you know? If I can see some more arguements like above(the one-inch punch demonstration), I might be convinced otherwise. Who knows. I mean, I don't mind bending if things can be told in different ways.

Well, personally, I've never seen the utility of stacking +7 DV from martial arts. I'd much rather take benefits like bonuses to block/parry/dodge or damaging with a disarm, readying weapons for a free action, or focusing more on the maneuvers. The +7 DV thing is nice, but doesn't have a lot of praticality in it.

I kinda think that way, too. I mean...ok. I could take +5 DV and hit for 14P, which is a Panther Cannon +5, or I can take +2, hit for 11P, which is a Panther Cannon +2. Also, I can have +2 to Surprise Attacks(so they can't defend against that 11P very well), and damage them on a disarm. Which is much more useful, IMO. In a way, even more powerful. Theoretically it shouldn't bother me, especially with my usual lean attitude on GMing(ruling usually in favor of the PCs on a confusing rule, no Availability limit at chargen, etc.) but it just sorta irked me to always see it, and not even bad. Kind of like someone poking you with a chopstick with no apparent reason.

And no, not a chopstick with +6 DV.