You know, throwing weapons and adepts can get stupidly strong too...

Well, they did nip Power Throw in the bud at level 3.


I do find it kind of funny how they'll limit, say, Power Throw in an errata, but let the unarmed DV stand. I mean, Throwing weapons being ranged is about the only idea I have why they did that...at least to be stupidly strong in melee, you have to, well, be in melee.

Unless you have the inane Distance Strike Power.

Hah. Well, so much for that idea.

Except that is considerably more limited than thrown weapons. Seeing as how distance strike is limited to magic in meters. As long as you have 2 strength, you can far outreach the distance strike.

That only works in the short term though. Since Magic is open-ended and Strength has a cap, eventually Distance Strike will outdo actual Thrown Weaponry.

Cyclops, Exceptional Attribute Strength, Genetic Optimization Strength. Raise strength to his max of 18. (6 base, 13 starting cap, 18 modified cap). 18 x 7 = 126 meters. Initiating and raising magic to 127 (to beat it)...
Assuming we start out at 6 and never get ware...
To initiate 121 times, and to raise magic from 7 to 127 is 47,674 karma.

When you have that much karma in your games, let me know, till then, thrown weapons still outrange distance strike.

Note that I did say eventually.

Edit: I expected your response, but was interested in seeing what you came up with.

You know there's some insane IE out there with all of that genetic strength augmenting stuff you mentioned, and he's sniping people from across the city with a fountain pen.

I'd hardly call 126 meters across the city.

Hey, IE. He probably has a lot more than 47,000 karma saved up.

Then he isn't sniping with his fountain pen, hes punching people.

Hell, even only a kilometer (1,000 magic) is 3,012,937 karma. I don't think hes doing it from across cities.

Edit: I messed up the math... Actually is 2,994,985. I had him initiate 1,000 times when he only needs 994.

Although to be fair, Tarantula did say ( Strength 2 ) in his first post.

Let me amend that to, "as a starting character".

Ok, then your point is valid even if I would throw heavy objects at any player who dared to present such a character for my approval.

What such character? A strength 2 guy focused on throwing things? Or the cyclops?

Both of course.

Seriously though, I really like my low dicepool games.

*EDIT*

And throwing heavy objects my poor defenseless players...

Really? Cause strength 2 is a base of 1P for throwing stuff. Even with a massive dicepool (say 18) thats 6 hits on average. Hes still only doing 7P.

Naw, I'm just in a goofy mood today, ( Strength 2 ) does strike me as slightly low for someone who is focused on throwing things at people for deadly effect, perhaps throw a point or two from cyber/bio.

Nah, the trick is he has a few cyberspurs and uses the sangre y acero on them as well as having them be spring loaded for the throwing goodness.

Here is a training video on the one-inch punch. Bruce Lee's demo might not look like much, but IIRC that's Ed Parker he's hitting, so you know the guy was ready for it. Also, note how the chair breaks-- that's force, not merely an unbalancing.

I agree completely on the dice pool thingy. There is something quite annoying about the running quote being "I take 5 (and possibly more) auto-successes" whenever a character is working within their niche.

Personally, I disagree. I like the players to be able to enjoy a certain degree of predictability when operating within their niche. Truly random combat is a major drag in my experience.

I like the comfort in knowing that my martial artist who has spent a good deal of his life training, and has the skills to back up the character history, is going to fair a bit better than the gangers and security guards he beats up on.

If we're discussing other adept powers, and Ancient History is watching this thread, I'd like to know if Nerve Strike is as godly powerful as it is. I mean, since no damage is done, there's no damage resistance test and armor doesn't even protect those squishy nerve centers from being attacked. Net hits in combat just plain take away attribute ratings for the time specified in the book. Shouldn't armor at least make it a little more difficult to hit those targets?

I would think so, myself. Normally "net hits" refers to the opposed combat test, but in the case of Nerve Strike, I wonder if they meant net hits after the damage resistance roll. That still leaves it powerful - instead of doing X over your base damage, you take away X from either Agility or Reaction. But I think a troll in body armor should be harder to affect with this power than a troll in street clothes.

But the rule for buying hits is only for when the character is in a non-threatening, non-stressful situation where there are no bad consequences for failing the test! You can't buy hits for things like combat, or negotiating payment for a run. It is for things like the face picking up a bar babe, or the throwing adept tossing darts at the local pub.

I would agree until I was looking through the SR4 BB and saw that the highest dice pool in combat for a Professional Rating 6 NPC (as in Delta Force-equivalents) was a base of 13 dice including smartlink (which is also where my mundane street merc caps out). Once you figure that the system is operating under the assumption that a 4-hit test is "Extremely Difficult", and this is also the highest in-system difficulty rating, then all of those 15+ dice monsters are really all Olympian-level at their skills and represent the best in the world rather than the best on the streets of just your local game location.

But this is according to the in-book NPCs so your game might require the 15+ dice pools and there is nothing really wrong with that as long as you be sure to keep this in mind when describing how your in-game characters work when compared to the more typical "as written" descriptions for characters/NPCs.

That said, I also agree that some predictability in the niche is a positive thing except in the case of more than 4 hits (aka pretty much impossible) tests being so...damn...casual as to render any reasonable response by the GM as moot. I'd really rather not have to whip out the ol' "GM Says So" NPC with insane skills, attributes, and other horse hockey just to win the occasional social test so my NPCs aren't all getting raped.

Then how would you propose fixing it? The common solution seems to be limiting BP, but I've never liked that, it makes generalists even more difficult to actually play. It's worth noting that in most games (don't know if it's the same in Shadowrun) it's assumed PCs are very much above average.

Limit dice pool sizes. Just say: "I'd prefer to not see a combat or social dice pool over 15, and unopposed dice pools of over 12." If a player bucks your request without a good reason, you know you've got a problem player. The important thing here is to back it up-- if you've capped the players at a dice pool of 15, throwing mooks with dicepools of 20 is unfair, and it's going to encourage the players to munchkinize.

Indubitably.


Why not just assume your NPCs will get raped and plan accordingly? That's what I do. I do not see why a properly created NPC using the Prime Runner rules is a "GM Says So" NPC. A "GM Says So" NPC does not even has stats, he simply GM Says So.

Now, I'll be the first to admit I have very little experience with it, but wouldn't the karma character creation system help to reduce the problems with players getting huge dice pools to start? Sure you can still get the same numbers, but it costs much more to say get one skill at 4 then it does to get two skills at 2, thus encouraging characters to spread out their characters a little.

Not really. The karmagen character will still have his huge dice pool in his main schtick. The only difference is that he will also be well-rounded in other areas. Karmagen creates more well-rounded characters, but that's not quite the same as less powerful characters.

I can see that. I think I have just learned to accept that most shadowrunners will be enormously skilled in their choosen specialty. I also tend not to have very munchkiny players, so 12 dice is usually about the highest I see.

In response to the One-Inch Punch video: Interesting stuff there. And cool, too. Those guys seriously did not move and the other guys went flying. Again, I can be convinced that things ''work'' with the right tools.

The other thing, honestly, that I said about limiting the DV, was...well, it helps those lower Strength more mundane characters a ton. But then it takes the cybered, magical characters who are already awesome as hell and puts them waaaay overboard.

What I would consider doing, though-is playing it by ear rather than out and out ban it. I never liked just banning stuff. I really don't. I tend to play faster, looser games with ''the main speciality'' die pools around the 17-22 range, and I always liked looking for other alternatives to out and out banning something, but I just saw so many ''super hitters'' that it made me feel it was too...good.

But if a player comes up to me with ''I have this concept-this guy trained over and over, etc, and he just is excellent at this maneuver, and this set of maneuvers. I took +6 DV and +1 die to knockdown, and I have him with the Smashing Blow Adept Power and another knockback power. He's awesome at those movie-like hit 'em and they go flyyying attacks.'' I might well be like ''cool! this all works together!'' But if someone else repeatedly takes +7 DV with no apparent reason no matter what the character, I might be less accepting of that. One reason why I did a general house rule is so I didn't have to play favorites with folks who took the damage with a nice little concept in mind(as well as wanting to kick butt), and the people who were obviously and blatantly just trying to juice everything out to 'win.' There is a difference in attitudes, and it's hard to describe but you can just...tell. Likewise, the person who looks at another players sam character, and decides he just haaas to hit harder than him, so juices up the DV along with everything else...just to do so.

As for die pools:

How high a die pool should go is completely dependent on a campaign, power level, etc.

See, using some of the things in the book isn't always...a good indicator, IMO. For example, a character with Pistols 5(+2), Agility 5(7), IMO, is not twinked. They are simply built to be very good at their job. But with a smartlink, they roll 16 dice. Someone who wants to be really good at their job(hell, the sample character dwarf-the one where it walked you through the creation even did maxing), takes 6(+2). and Pistols 6(+2). 18 dice with a smartlink. But...I don't think it's considered some sort of munchkining to do that. They didn't go nuts with aptitude this, super that, etc.

Of course, non-combat die pools, as has been proven, can go even higher. Can you blame someone playing a face who wants to be awesome to put a 7 in charisma, take 2 levels of pheremones and takes 6(+2) Negotations, and takes 2 levels of Kinesics with Improved Negotations +2. It looks twinky, but compared to the Pornomancer, this person is being rather balanced with their 21 dice. Extremely balanced. Hell, even in a ganger, 300 BP campaign it's not hard to reach those die pools...4+2 Pistols(IMO, someone who lived a rough life could easily have this having to shoot day in and day out), Agility 5(7) with the easy to get Muscle Replacement and an equally easy to get smartlink(just gotta know a coupla contacts), 15 dice, and that's in a 300 BP game.

How I described it above with the +DV...I guess my thing is that I don't start to scratch my head until something looks...'wrong' on the paper. Blades 6(+2), a smartlink and Agility 6( doesn't say ''wrong'' to me, it says ''hmm...super swashbuckler?'' Exc. Attribute: Agility, Aptitude: Blades(or pistols, fill in the blank), Agility Treatment, Muscle Toner 4, Agility 9(13), Blades(pistols, whatever) 7(+2), etc....well, ok then they have 22 dice before reach or smartlink. Again, if you have some sort of particular ''idea'' in mind why this is...I can assure you, I won't be throwing an army of cyberninjas at you in the game for you to really need this.

I guess at the end of all of this(die pools DV, etc), the thing I end up looking at and trying to feel out is the intent of the player. If they intent is a good solid reason of ''character driven'' as well as wanting to kick butt, I'm much more lean than I am a player who is obviously trying to take advantage of my already generous nature as a GM.

What the hell is a pornomancer?

An extremely maximized Social Adept, usually specializing in Seduction.

Kinesics, glamour, specializations, the works?

And then some. Rumor has it that an out of the box Pornomancer can roll 51 dice for Seduction. I'm pretty sure it's the most specialized character in the game(I forget if Bloodzilla/MechaBloodzilla are worse-a Blood Mage and a Technomancer based on Sprites and some other stuff,) if I recall.

Hell, with some of those builds around i should be happy all someone wants to do is ''stack a bunch of situational damage.''

wait what? how? is this at character creation or with karma?

The last Pornomancer I saw had 51 dice for Seduction ... at chargen. And I might be wrong, but I don't believe this included Glamour.

and here I was feeling guilty about 15 dice for influence

Yeah, they are highly specialized builds. Typically, combat characters can't come close to this. The most I can think of is a Pistol Adept with all of the twinking above(22 dice), a Smartlink(24 dice), Improved Ability 3(max you can get with a 6-7 skill, 27 dice.) Replace that with an elf who uses a weapon with a 2 reach and you could do the same. But when you start overblowing social or technical pools, you can get veeery beyond that. I might be missing something from the combat equation, but I think that's about it.

What I think people are forgetting is that Fourth Edition is geared towards lower dicepools, Professonals only have 6-8 Dice before equipment in their area of specialization, Runners really don't need 12-15 to thrive in such a world.

With that said, personally I do as Cain suggests, I talk to my players and explain the way the game world works, and if they bring Dumpshock Grade characters for my approval then I throw heavy objects at them.

Heh. Funny thing is, plenty of characters get plenty of approval with DPs of 14+, so it makes me think it's not necessarily taboo or anything. Some of us just prefer to maybe play a bit of a professional-level game. Of course, Professionals and Runners are even different. Runners, in my opinion and experience, tend to be a bit better off. Hell, even in the higher end SR3, the mooks aren't on the runner-levels. Neither in SR2 or 1. PCs have always had the ability to be more experienced, etc.

I always considered ''Rating 3 Professional'' as people like a beat cop, for example, personally. There's professional as in, this is what they do for their profession; it's enough skill to take home their paycheck and survive a ''typical'' encounter. Runners, no doubt, would like themselves to be above these guys. These guys, though, their typical encounter is not with a runner. I doubt if you looked at a beat cop's arrest record, ''Street Samurai'' would be on that list. Most likely he's getting strung-out druggies, maybe a thug with a bat, etc. Look at the more elite guys; they are considerably better with their armor, higher skill groups of firearms of 4-6, and some 'ware, and no doubt better gear. A more elite force with firearms group 5 and Agility 4(5) is rolling 12 with a smartlink, and while that's still a bit behind a typical runner, they also typically come in larger numbers than the runner team. And 12 dice with a smartlinked SMG is enough to put a dent in a runner's day; i've seen it happen before. Especially with stick-n-shock.

I guess the appropriate DPs are ''whatever fits your game the best'', really.

Sure, and I consider that a holdover from Third Edition where you didn't have the hard caps built into the system like we do now, look at what the various stat and skill rating are supposed to mean according to the book.

Hell most of the threads about how Fourth Edition is so broken and unbalanced because of "X" simply "go away" at lower Dicepools.

Just for future reference, if a one inch punch sends someone flying then the puncher did it wrong. The entire point of the one inch punch is that the target doesn't go anywhere but straight down at your feet.

I'm starting to feel the "Max pre-mod dice pools at 15" bug biting the more I think about it. I seems that a 5-hit average roll should be quite adequate without any Edge being spent.

I think you two are mis-reading the power. It does net hits in reduction, not base damage + net hits.

So, adept man attacks troll, he gets 3 hits, troll gets 2 hits on his dodge/block gest. Troll loses either 1 agility or 1 reaction. Not exactly broken, since instead of getting that, you could just get +4 dv (via critical strike) and punch him out in 1 or 2 rounds instead of taking 4-6 to paralyze him.

That's the real version. The demo version is different. Dropping someone with one punch isn't nearly as impressive as sending them flying.

Nope, not mis-reading it, I wasn't adding in the base DV either. I do it just like this

Unarmed Test vs. Dodge (Melee) test.

Attackers Net Hits are removed from attribute of choice (agility or reaction).

I think Glyph was suggesting that it could be that way if it was intended. That's part of the reason I was hoping a Dev would say... "Yup, that's the way it is. Armor doesn't matter."

I am just wondering about that because I have a character who usually has 3-4 net hits (on goons) with nerve strike (AGI 5, Unarmed 7 (9) w/aptitude and adept improved ability, +2 for Martial Arts spec. Plus, extensive use of kick attack for the reach bonus and usually some kind of charging attack for charge bonus coupled with TKD charging flying kick bonus I roll somewhere around 20) . Using finishing move I can usually take someone out in a combat turn which is something I am not used to with unarmed combat. I was used to having to beat someone unconscious over the course of several turns taking 2 or 3 stun away from them at a time if I was lucky. That second attack is always easier to get more net hits with as well when you reduce your opponent's reaction instead of agility.

But, in reality while armor would help a defender protect nerve centers and pressure points that are normally targeted by damaging strikes, since nerve strike is a mana/adept/magic based power, it really makes sense if it bypasses armor because it deals with the channeling of chi and energy (mana). Maybe I'm just talking out my ass, but I was hoping for a definite answer so I don't abuse rules in game.