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hyzmarca
We can, of course, ignore that Erratta for games in which we want Jet Li to be able to kill tanks with his fists.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 17 2008, 11:27 PM) *
Aren't you aware of the effects frequencies have on human emotions? Certain subsonics can cause fear, certain ultrasonics can cause anxiety. Even within a more normal range, people respond differently to voices of a different pitch. For example, a child's voice causes a different psychological reaction than an adult's. A soft woman's voice causes a different reaction than a harsh male voice. And so on and so forth. Here is one study that I discovered in about 10 seconds of Google-fu.

So, we're back to 51 dice versus a maximum of 9.


If he's running the shadows, he's already prepared to face the scandals that might ensue. However, since he's successfully getting people to kill themselves or surrender, if he packs some Laes he won't be leaving any witnesses behind.



QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 18 2008, 03:45 PM) *
You're the one who indicated 2 or 3 net successes. And again, that's more than enough to get them to surrender. And when we ignore your reading that's been deliberately nerfed, we're discussing a more realistic 17 successes. I covered about six to eight of your nerfs about fifteen posts back.


You mean that post? The one where you addressed ONLY the vocal range extender bonus, which is +1?

Crossposted to leadermancer page for discussion to continue there.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 18 2008, 09:31 PM) *
Crossposted to leadermancer page for discussion to continue there.

Thank you.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 18 2008, 08:48 AM) *
You have not. You have explained 1 modifier, out of the many that are present. Tell me how tailored pheromones applies, at the very least.

Most conservative estimate was 1-2 net successes. Thats more than enough to make them stop and think about it. Before, you were saying it was because it was a critical success that they'd obey a command like surrender or kill yourself in mid-combat. Now you don't have a critical success. So they wouldn't listen.

He won't be getting 17 successes.


Tailored Pheromones add because smell in the most "primitive" sense and has the strongest connection to both attitude and memory. Being most connected to the "reptile brain", it also is the hardest to ignore of the senses when you get a disconnect. An excellent example would be having an excellently prepared dish of your favorite foods set in front of you except that it's in a room that is continually being pumped full of the smell of a three-day carcass. Another good one is how you will subconsciously tell someone you normally wouldn't talk to that they smell good and that your mood will invariably, if temporarily, improve when you smell them.

That said, if you are talking to a leadermancer with these pheromones in effect then you will be trying to fight off an overall feeling of *insert whatever negative or positive feeling they want here* along with whatever is going on with your other senses and the scent will create a subconscious reaction that might fight what you have coming from the other senses but the subconscious almost always wins over the conscious which is why you sometimes drive all the way to work and don't remember it at all a few hours later.

An excellent example, would be that you're a loookout on an operation to get some paydata when an attractive person walks up to you. Psychology places subconscious trust in attractive people higher than unattractive people so they get a bonus there. This person speaks confidently and calmly for another subconscious psychological trigger to relax. Then the pheromones kick in and you get another trigger in your reptile brain that screams trust and love and relaxation and how everything is going to be Ok no matter what. They say, "Eat this pill" with a dazzling smile and eyes full of command and you find yourself reacting without thought by holding out your hand for the pill as the silky caresses of their voice fills your mind with a want...no, a need to obey...

That said, it's not quite "Shoot yourself!" as the insane stresses of combat will make it hard to get past the fight/flight reflex but that just means that your pornomancer/leadermancer will have to be a bit on the sneaky side rather than just rolling up on bitches and skullfucking them.
Cain
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 18 2008, 06:22 PM) *
But that errata would imply that DVs were meant to be able to be stacked in the first place.

Which also brings up the question: does the DV bonus for boxing and TKD kicks stack? Or was it meant to?
fistandantilus4.0
psychopipps, Please note that this is a Martial Arts Quality thread, as was already pointed out. Bring your discussion to the appropriate thread.
Glyph
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 18 2008, 10:03 PM) *
Which also brings up the question: does the DV bonus for boxing and TKD kicks stack? Or was it meant to?

From pg. 146 of the main book:
QUOTE
Melee combat in Shadowrun assumes that some maneuvering occurs as part of the fight. Rather than a single blow, each attack is a series of moves and counter-moves executed by those involved. Melee combat is not "I punch you and then I wait for your turn to punch me;" rather, it represents several seconds of feints, jabs, punches, counters, attacks, defends, kicks, and bites by both combatants at the same time.

So, if the rules say that you can get +1 reach from a kick maneuver and +1 DV from tae kwon do, and combine it with the +2 DV from boxing, I would allow it, even though the two don't seem like they would stack at first glance.
BullZeye
I also qould allow it, but would tell the player how about taking some other kicking styles instead of boxing. We got now one martial artist who has 4 kicking styles with all giving +1DV that was built pre-errata. We figured that one point doesn't make such a big difference as getting up and close isn't that frequent anyway so he got to keep his +4DV till kingdom come.
Platinum Dragon
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 17 2008, 05:20 PM) *
And my point is that an NPC with more BPs will be a greater challenge when compared to a similar NPC built with less BPs.
Precisely my point since relevance only applies at specific times. You do not know what skill or dice pool will be relevant until you come to a specific situation. There are no encounters in SR4. BP != challenge rating is true, precisely because there is no such thing as Challenge Rating in SR4. You should not plan encounters and use dice pools to determine the CR.

If you have a 100 BP character that is better at combat than a 600 BP character, then the 600BP character could have significantly altered the odds of the PCs of ever facing him in combat in the first place. Perhaps the 100 BP fighter you got is the bodyguard/henchman of the 600BP mastermind. See you are thinking in a straight D&D encounter format, SR4 simply does not work this way.

The dice pool method is analgous to the way SR3 rated the NPCs, dice pools of the NPCs were tied to the dice pools of the PCs. No matter what the PCs did, the NPCs were uniformly either worse(Inferior), equal, or better(Superior and up). It meant that the Superior Martial Artist NPC could outpunch, outshoot, outdrive, and somehow outsling spells and outcounterspell the PCs(because his dice pools were uniformly better in all relevant skills). Using BPs you could have the Superior Mage NPC outcast the Mage PC but still (being limited by his BPs) have less Pistols dice than the Street Sam PC. Even if you use this dice pool method to rate the encounter(as opposed to a single NPC), it would mean that in a Superior rated encounter, the NPCs would have more dice to do anything the PCs are doing and hence do it better. Even the so called tactics that the PCs used will be overmatched by the tactics that the NPCs use by dint of their better dice pools (more "tactics" dice to think up better tactics). BP and total dice are always relevant.

I am not talking about a major NPC who is built with 100 BP vs. another major NPC who is built with 600 - if you're talking about a reccuring character that the PC's will likely face (directly or indeirectly) in a variety of situations, then yes, BP can be relevant to how challenging he will be. I'm saying a 100 BP security guard vs. a 600 BP security guard. The PC's will encounter him once, if they trigger a specific alarm. Assuming they do, they then end up in a firefight with him, at which point the only thing that determines how challenging he is to the PC's are his combat dice pools - any obscure knowledges, or his 150,000 nuyen.gif car have absolutely nothing to do with how challenging the PC's find him.

Also, see Cain's example of a 600 BP character who is worse at pretty much every opposed test than the 100 BP one is, and only becomes better if someone asks his opinion on south-african interprative dance.

QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 19 2008, 12:22 PM) *
But that errata would imply that DVs were meant to be able to be stacked in the first place.

Yes. Yes it would. =)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 19 2008, 12:28 PM) *
We can, of course, ignore that Erratta for games in which we want Jet Li to be able to kill tanks with his fists.

You have an uncanny grasp of awesomeness. I doff my hat to you, good sir.
ElFenrir
I think the whole ''does the DV from boxing/kicks stack'' is the same reason a troll gets his +1 reach in melee if he's punching or kicking(this is without any maneuvers.) Even though a troll(2.4 meters tall nowadays it seems on average), probably has the same leg length as a 2.1 meter tall elf, ork(i might even say shorter...and if I recall, that super-tall Elf metavariant does NOT get reach), or even human because of they way they're built, their arms are the definite ''long limb'' on their body. Unless the artwork managed to mis-draw them every single time, their legs are not super-long and probably technically shouldn't have a reach bonus, much like a elf or ork. But, since unarmed is lots of maneuvers, I assume that they get the reach because they are using their arms as well.


I recall, back in SR3, a buddy of mine who actually ruled trolls got the +1 in melee as usual...unless they actually specified they were only kicking. They did not get it at that point. (it didn't stop anyone. We just had lots of troll boxers and troll weaponmasters instead. biggrin.gif) I can see why he ruled that though; I have seen tons of pictures where their legs just aren't that long. They always got it holding weapons, in any case. Some people may not like that houserule, but it didn't bother me when I heard it(and I was playing a troll...but he DID have a scythe and a hand spur so it was kind of moot for him anyway.)

Yeah, ever since the kick attack maneuver came out, there's been a lot more...kicking styles being used. (to be fair, I was abusing kicking styles on several of my characters just for their looks for ages, as do others no doubt, now they just give you a reason to. biggrin.gif) Then again, though, with the ''unarmed as lots of moves'', someone with Kick Attack can still punch. And I assume if someone does a bunch of maneuvers, I might describe it as a ''feint, a couple of punches, and a round kick to the stomach as they reel'' or something. But I guess people take all the kicking styles with Kick Attack just to ''be safe'' and keep the reach bonus. Again, like my friend's houserule above, I'd assume they'd always have it going unless they either specified they were only punching...or, for some reason, could only punch.

Then there is the case of things like Satyr Legs/Optimized Punching Cyberlimbs, where the people only seem to get a bonus to one of those particular manuevers.
Mäx
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 20 2008, 11:52 AM) *
and if I recall, that super-tall Elf metavariant does NOT get reach

They get +1 reach from elongated limbs.
ElFenrir
Oh! Im blind! biggrin.gif Thanks for clearing it up there.

Oddly enough, it seems that if, say, someone plays a troll that's shorter than average(for the hell of it...just like you can have a non-dwarf human that's 5 feet, Im sure you can have a troll that's around 7 feet), they STILL get the reach on their legs een though I know they would be quite shorter at that point, compared to, say, an elf or ork of the same height.

Well, i suppose this can go into ''rules that confuse me a bit.'' smile.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Platinum Dragon @ Oct 20 2008, 11:08 AM) *
I am not talking about a major NPC who is built with 100 BP vs. another major NPC who is built with 600 - if you're talking about a reccuring character that the PC's will likely face (directly or indeirectly) in a variety of situations, then yes, BP can be relevant to how challenging he will be. I'm saying a 100 BP security guard vs. a 600 BP security guard. The PC's will encounter him once, if they trigger a specific alarm. Assuming they do, they then end up in a firefight with him, at which point the only thing that determines how challenging he is to the PC's are his combat dice pools - any obscure knowledges, or his 150,000 nuyen.gif car have absolutely nothing to do with how challenging the PC's find him.

If you are using the Inferior/Equal/Superior/Superhuman ratings, then you should be using the Prime Runner rules.

Such Prime Runners are memorable NPCs, they are "the equivalent of the evil mastermind, the mastermind's chief henchman, or the femme fatale" (SR4 p277). If said Sec Guard was created via the Prime Runner rules, then he should be a unique individual, as unique as the PCs (again, SR4 p277). Unless your PCs do not have Knowledge Skills or are paper cutout one trick ponies, then sure, make your NPCs as one dimensional as you want, otherwise practise what you preach and Be Realistic(SR4 p266).
Cain
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 20 2008, 06:11 AM) *
If you are using the Inferior/Equal/Superior/Superhuman ratings, then you should be using the Prime Runner rules.

Such Prime Runners are memorable NPCs, they are "the equivalent of the evil mastermind, the mastermind's chief henchman, or the femme fatale" (SR4 p277). If said Sec Guard was created via the Prime Runner rules, then he should be a unique individual, as unique as the PCs (again, SR4 p277). Unless your PCs do not have Knowledge Skills or are paper cutout one trick ponies, then sure, make your NPCs as one dimensional as you want, otherwise practise what you preach and Be Realistic(SR4 p266).

Even if you're creating a Prime Runner, unless he's got useful dice pools to utilize against the party, he won't be of much use. It's entirely possible for a GM to create a character who is inferior to the PC's in every way, even though he spent more BPs.
psychophipps
Also, don't forget that the "Kick Attack" doesn't necessarily have to be an actual kick. It could just as easily be quick footwork, like a Fencing Lunge, or a quick jump at the opponent to a different attack. The important aspect is that it's reach +1, not that it actually be forced into a kick attack format.
ElFenrir
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Oct 20 2008, 12:01 PM) *
Also, don't forget that the "Kick Attack" doesn't necessarily have to be an actual kick. It could just as easily be quick footwork, like a Fencing Lunge, or a quick jump at the opponent to a different attack. The important aspect is that it's reach +1, not that it actually be forced into a kick attack format.



Whoa, nice to think outside of the box. So ''Kick Attack'' for a boxer might be a big wind-up stretchy-punch.

Using it in this way could open things up, so folks who wish to play a troll boxer(IMO, they just look better at boxing with their big ol' arms and upper bodies than they do kicking. It's just me biggrin.gif), or any kind of boxer, or a fencer, can still take this advantage. This way people don't have to be forced to be(or end up going toward) things like tae kwan do just to utilize this advantage; they can just pick the styles they actually like. Hey, if they LIKE tae kwan do and the like, then go for it(I like the way the style looks myself) but at least the boxers/fencers/etc won't be left out.
Tarantula
I think kick attacks are quite explicitly used many times in the rules though. Such as raptor legs giving a bonus to them. I wouldn't have a problem letting someone take a maneuver that equated to +1 reach for unarmed, while not kicking, but such kicking bonuses wouldn't stack with it.
psychophipps
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Oct 20 2008, 09:13 AM) *
Whoa, nice to think outside of the box. So ''Kick Attack'' for a boxer might be a big wind-up stretchy-punch.

Using it in this way could open things up, so folks who wish to play a troll boxer(IMO, they just look better at boxing with their big ol' arms and upper bodies than they do kicking. It's just me biggrin.gif), or any kind of boxer, or a fencer, can still take this advantage. This way people don't have to be forced to be(or end up going toward) things like tae kwan do just to utilize this advantage; they can just pick the styles they actually like. Hey, if they LIKE tae kwan do and the like, then go for it(I like the way the style looks myself) but at least the boxers/fencers/etc won't be left out.


Whoa there now, Hoss! eek.gif

We can't have folks thinking on their own to invent new concepts and ideas from the existing RAW system! Every single person who has "Ready weapon is a free action" MUST have taken the three styles listed in the Arsenal sourcebook and no substitutions are allowed! PERIOD!

You can't just be taking a "Kick Attack" and make it any attack you want in public like that! It's indecent! embarrassed.gif
ElFenrir
Oh, silly me. wink.gif

Well, some things are specific; such as the raptor legs, and also the optimized arms that give bonuses to throwing, punching, and weapon attacks. I personally don't mind people utilizing Kick Attack as a way to do that kind of footwork to lunge; but I suppose making up other maneuvers(and hell, putting other styles in the game) that allow Reach bonuses to other limbs is cool, too. Whichever way works best at the table.

Of course,, despite the custom limbs and raptor legs being specific, unarmed is still described as a bunch of maneuvers. I suppose if someone has the Custom Punchin' Limbs o' Doom they assume all of the feints and attacks are punches if the bonus counts.
Platinum Dragon
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 21 2008, 12:11 AM) *
If you are using the Inferior/Equal/Superior/Superhuman ratings, then you should be using the Prime Runner rules.

Such Prime Runners are memorable NPCs, they are "the equivalent of the evil mastermind, the mastermind's chief henchman, or the femme fatale" (SR4 p277). If said Sec Guard was created via the Prime Runner rules, then he should be a unique individual, as unique as the PCs (again, SR4 p277). Unless your PCs do not have Knowledge Skills or are paper cutout one trick ponies, then sure, make your NPCs as one dimensional as you want, otherwise practise what you preach and Be Realistic(SR4 p266).

I was specifically refering to a scenario where you wouldn't be using prime runner rules. You were the one who brought up NPC's that get to use multiple skill sets over the course of different scenarions, also known as prime runners. If I'm statting up a Corp Sec. team that will arrive within 3 combat rounds if the players trip an alarm for the specific run that they are doing then their rating in 'Knowledge: ancient Australian crime novels' is never going to come into play, nor is their Con 6 (seduction 8), nor their Pilot: Anthroform 4 if they arrive in a car. Their 6 months of medium lifestyle is completely irrelevant. The only things that will matter to how much they challenge the PC's are their combat dicepools, which will only be a fraction of their BP.

Figure out what sort of challenge the NPC is supposed to present, how hard that challenge is supposed to be, and tailor the NPC's dice pools in that area accordingly.

Edit: dang smileys, git off m'post!
toturi
QUOTE (Platinum Dragon @ Oct 21 2008, 08:57 AM) *
I was specifically refering to a scenario where you wouldn't be using prime runner rules. You were the one who brought up NPC's that get to use multiple skill sets over the course of different scenarions, also known as prime runners. If I'm statting up a Corp Sec. team that will arrive within 3 combat rounds if the players trip an alarm for the specific run that they are doing then their rating in 'Knowledge: ancient Australian crime novels' is never going to come into play, nor is their Con 6 (seduction cool.gif, nor their Pilot: Anthroform 4 if they arrive in a car. Their 6 months of medium lifestyle is completely irrelevant. The only things that will matter to how much they challenge the PC's are their combat dicepools, which will only be a fraction of their BP.

If those sec guards are not Prime Runners, then you should not be using BPs to create the Sec Team at all. You should use the Grunts, and/or maybe Contacts, as NPCs. When you say an NPC is rated [Inferior/Equal/etc] to the runners then, strictly by the rules, you are refering to Prime Runners. By the RAW, there are no non-unique NPCs that are created Equal.

QUOTE
Even if you're creating a Prime Runner, unless he's got useful dice pools to utilize against the party, he won't be of much use. It's entirely possible for a GM to create a character who is inferior to the PC's in every way, even though he spent more BPs.

Then why is he there in the "encounter"? Did the GM create an academic consultant character to use as the sec guard? I mean those 400BPs came running round the corner when the alarm went off - is he the researcher whose lab you are invading? It is the GM who decides how that 400BPs gets into the game. It is not the fault of the RAW that the GM sees fit to send in the Equal clowns.
Cain
QUOTE
Then why is he there in the "encounter"? Did the GM create an academic consultant character to use as the sec guard? I mean those 400BPs came running round the corner when the alarm went off - is he the researcher whose lab you are invading? It is the GM who decides how that 400BPs gets into the game. It is not the fault of the RAW that the GM sees fit to send in the Equal clowns.

It is when the GM can't create characters as effectively as the players can. If you're defining everything in terms of BP, you end up with an arms race to see who can use them more efficiently. If the answer is: "The players", then it doesn't matter how much BP the GM shoves into his NPCs. Because the GM faces the same caps as everyone else, there's only so much good you can get out of throwing more BPs at the players.

I've taken my Dumpshock character to several games where he overwhelmed the game, simply because his average dice pool was at everyone else's level, but his high dice pool was double that. I've had a GM demand an audit of my character sheet, since he couldn't believe that I had a dice pool in the low 20's. And that's just a Dumpshock standard character; we're not even discussing Pornomancers. These are all 400-BP characters, it's just that some builds are more efficient than others. Restricting players by changing BP totals does not work.

The more productive approach is to ask players nicely to limit pool sizes. If you want a BBB-standard game, just ask them to keep their dice pools to 15 or less. If you want a higher powered game, take it to 20; street level, drop it to 10. This also prevents munchkinizing, since once they hit the cap, there's no incentive for them to push things further.
toturi
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 21 2008, 09:59 AM) *
It is when the GM can't create characters as effectively as the players can. If you're defining everything in terms of BP, you end up with an arms race to see who can use them more efficiently. If the answer is: "The players", then it doesn't matter how much BP the GM shoves into his NPCs. Because the GM faces the same caps as everyone else, there's only so much good you can get out of throwing more BPs at the players.

I was not aware that Superior and better PCs had the same caps as the PCs. Perhaps I made a mistake, if you have the books with you, can you check?
Cain
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 20 2008, 07:20 PM) *
I was not aware that Superior and better PCs had the same caps as the PCs. Perhaps I made a mistake, if you have the books with you, can you check?


Well, the rules say they're supposed to be built using the standard BP system. Superior and better NPC's say they're not constrained by the restraints on starting characters, but not that they're free of the same skill and attribute caps as the runners. Because of that, it's easier to get them to the higher dice pools, but ultimately they have the same caps the PC's do.

Here's the relevant paragraph:
QUOTE (SR4 @ p277)
Superhuman: Some prime runners are so powerful that
they can take on the entire PC group single-handedly and
win. Like Superior prime runners, they are not bound by the
constraints that apply to starting player characters. In general,
player characters should encounter Superhuman prime runners
very rarely; such characters are usually masterminds manipulating
events behind the scenes.

toturi
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 21 2008, 10:28 AM) *
Well, the rules say they're supposed to be built using the standard BP system. Superior and better NPC's say they're not constrained by the restraints on starting characters, but not that they're free of the same skill and attribute caps as the runners. Because of that, it's easier to get them to the higher dice pools, but ultimately they have the same caps the PC's do.

Thanks. I suppose you can have a GM that is so bad at character creation that even lifting those restraints and the additional BPs do not help him overcome his shortcomings.

I wonder if it was the intent for karma gen/priority to be limited to only PCs. Well, something to check out when I get back to my books.
Cain
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 20 2008, 08:08 PM) *
Thanks. I suppose you can have a GM that is so bad at character creation that even lifting those restraints and the additional BPs do not help him overcome his shortcomings.

Even if the GM is good, it's entirely possible for a character to be so maxed-out at chargen that additional BPs won't make a difference.
Whipstitch
I have to agree with Cain on this one.

Super human prime runners shouldn't be well, human. You might be able to make a cybered mage or a cyber adept that can go by the "standard" human rules and trounce an entire team of min-maxed runners, but even that's not terribly likely. It comes down to the simple rule of the Omni-Class limitation, an idea I first heard described in a D&D context oh so many moons ago: If you make a single character and give him all the same options and abilities as a Mage, Warrior, Rogue and Cleric, he still won't be able to defeat a coordinated team of the same characters simply because beyond a certain point there's only so many actions you can take at once and thus you really only just end up selecting the singular option that happens to be most applicable to the scenario. Quite simply, if you have enough dice and ammo to kill someone with a Streetline Special, it doesn't really matter how good you are with a katana; one win condition is as good as another. While this dynamic is a bit different in a skill system with gigantic dice pools, at the end of the day the greatest Combat Hacker on the planet will still have a hard time finding the extra dice to put him over the top against a top-notch Sammy and Hacker team that happens to be near their respective skill caps. Compounding this difficulty is the simple fact that he'll also find himself behind in total actions if he's not really careful.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 20 2008, 09:26 PM) *
Even if the GM is good, it's entirely possible for a character to be so maxed-out at chargen that additional BPs won't make a difference.


I think I've shown repeatedly, that a good character can always be made to utterly defeat another one if thats the intention.
toturi
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 21 2008, 11:26 AM) *
Even if the GM is good, it's entirely possible for a character to be so maxed-out at chargen that additional BPs won't make a difference.

Maybe for the characters concepts that have a hard cap. Depending on whether you can use karma gen for Prime Runner NPCs, you might be able reach over if you have Resonance or Magic characters. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to ask the devs with regards on their intent for karma gen and Prime Runner NPCs.
Tarantula
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 20 2008, 09:36 PM) *
Maybe for the characters concepts that have a hard cap. Depending on whether you can use karma gen for Prime Runner NPCs, you might be able reach for infinity if you have Resonance or Magic characters. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to ask the devs with regards on their intent for karma gen and Prime Runner NPCs.



The restrictions on chargen don't matter. So I'd say yes, you should be able to initiate your prime runner antagonists.
Glyph
I personally dislike the description of Super Prime Runner - if the runners meet a superior adversary, it should be a mastermind, or a large organization, or a group of fanatics - NOT some cartoonish end-of-level boss type who unrealistically no-sells a coordinated attack from the PCs.
Whipstitch
Agreed. Frankly, the mastermind behind most big plots is probably just some guy with decent social skills, high knowledge in Mafia/Corp/Whatever Politics and all his points sank into Contacts rather than even a min-maxed Face.
Cain
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 20 2008, 08:28 PM) *
I think I've shown repeatedly, that a good character can always be made to utterly defeat another one if thats the intention.

Not without GM metagame cheese, it's not. Sometimes, sure, you'd be right. Always? Not without cheesing it.

QUOTE
I personally dislike the description of Super Prime Runner - if the runners meet a superior adversary, it should be a mastermind, or a large organization, or a group of fanatics - NOT some cartoonish end-of-level boss type who unrealistically no-sells a coordinated attack from the PCs.

I sort-of agree and I sort-of don't. While you're right that realistically, a superior adversary shouldn't be just another target, there's something satisfying about a tough battle with a powerful opponent. Maybe not the mastermind, but his best buddy? The teacher who betrayed you? There's lots of examples.

The point here is, if you're setting dice pools instead of BP's, you're setting up a more fair challenge. If you set up the NPC's defense pool based on the character's attack pools, you'll do a lot better for making things exciting.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 20 2008, 10:08 PM) *
Not without GM metagame cheese, it's not. Sometimes, sure, you'd be right. Always? Not without cheesing it.


Of course you would have to use the knowledge you had of your player's characters to design someone who could beat them. That was the point. If you know their stats, you can design someone who will beat them. Typically, this is just a sniper, but you can take it to other extremes too. (Mind control, techno w/machine sprites in ultra-combat drones, possession mage w/channeling, and so on).
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 20 2008, 11:43 PM) *
I personally dislike the description of Super Prime Runner - if the runners meet a superior adversary, it should be a mastermind, or a large organization, or a group of fanatics - NOT some cartoonish end-of-level boss type who unrealistically no-sells a coordinated attack from the PCs.


I think you're reading the Superhuman Prime Runner incorrectly. He isn't a dude with enough Body and armor to absorb a howitzer shell (unless you want to go in that direction). He's a guy who is very smart, physically able, and skilled with no obvious exploitable weaknesses who plays smart. It isn't a matter of him no-selling attacks so much as that you can't RPS him (Most magical characters are vulnerable to physical force while most physical characters are vulnerable to magic, for example). If he just stands there and takes hits you'll obliterate him, of course. But he isn't stupid enough to do that.
And he will be a mastermind, or more likely the mastermind's right hand. I'm thinking more like Mahogany from Midnight Meat Train. He was superhuman, but he was not invincible by a long shot. His greatest assets were stealth and skill.

Of course, you can just ignore all of that last sentence when I pull out Cyborg Hitler. Cyborg Hitler is a final boss, with flamethrowers and miniguns for arms.
Glyph
I was going by Cain's quote on Superhuman from the book, which was a pretty lame definition. Unless you're talking about Cyborg Hitler. cyber.gif

Who can also out-argue the pornomancer, because any time the pornomancer thinks he's won, it's "Godwin's Law! Godwin's Law!"
TKDNinjaInBlack
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 20 2008, 10:29 PM) *
Of course, you can just ignore all of that last sentence when I pull out Cyborg Hitler. Cyborg Hitler is a final boss, with flamethrowers and miniguns for arms.


Yeah, but don't forget that any resurrection of Hitler is just going to get exploded as soon as he steps into his super flying machine and get shot through the cockpit by a bazooka... We'll even get a nice little cut scene showing us how he explodes...
damaleon
And one question pertaining to the original post is answered, the recently released errata and sencond printing of Arsenal add "The maximum cumulative DV modifier possible is +3" to the description of the Martial Arts quality.
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