No, it only remains true if the GM is equally capable at character creation as the players are. If the players can create pornomancers and mecha-Bloodzillas without trouble, and the GM can't, there's going to be problems as the 400 BP players run roughshod over the 400 BP NPCs. Even with more capable GMs, you just start an arms race as everyone tries to wring that last bit of use out of every BP.

Just take a look at the disparity between PCs. You see some weak yet balanced generalists, with their high dice pools in the 10-12 range; talented professionals with dice pools in the 16-20 range, and inhuman monstrosities with dice in the 30-40 range. If you let the first kind run around with the third kind, there will be all sorts of hard feelings. Regardless of BP's, your effectiveness is measured by the size of your dice pool.

Arms race, so? It is a function of the game system that there is a limit to how much you can wring out of each BP/karma. Eventually, there is a ceiling. It remains true, because an incapable GM with less BP will still come out with a weaker NPC. And the same GM will come out with a better NPC (relatively speaking) if he had more BP to play with. If the PCs are running roughshod over 400BP NPCs with 400BP PCs, then those same PCs will steamroller over 320BP NPCs.

If the first kind wants to run around with the third, then the player with the first has to accept that he is never going to be as good in certain things as the third. Effectiveness can be measured in multiple ways, it can be measured by the size of a single(or a limited number of) dice pool or the combined number of dice that may be rolled in sum. A well made generalist will have the same number of total dice as a focused specialist, perhaps more. Regardless of individual dice pool, the overall effectiveness of a character can be measured by BP/karma. If you want to evaluate how effective a certain aspect of the character, then you can limit the number of dice pools under evaluation.

So what happens when the PCs are steamrolling over 500-550 BP NPC's? If the upper-ranked NPCs don't have superior dice pools, they won't last long against the PC's.

I don't understand what you mean when you say: "A well made generalist will have the same number of total dice as a focused specialist, perhaps more." Glyph just posted the latest version of the Pornomancer, with 51 dice for seduction. You aren't seriously suggesting that the generalist can come even close to matching that, are you? They might have some similar dicepools in secondary areas; but the specialist will tend to have everything the generalist has, plus a superhuman dice pool for the stuff he considers to be most important.

At any event, I'm sure that you and I could both put together totally ineffective 400 BP/750 karma characters. So, why is it hard to imagine that you could do the same with 500-600 BP characters as well? The book is wrong when it says that BP is the best way of judging a character's effectiveness. Dice pool size is the best way to go.

I am seriously suggesting that the generalist should have the same number, if not more, of total dice as a focused specialist. For example, our generalist has only 4 in the skill rating as he bought a Skill group instead of maxing 1 skill and spending the other 16 BPs on another skill at rating 4. So our generalist has 4 dice for every skill in that group while the pornomancer has 6 and 4, for a total of 10 dice. Mr Generalist has min. 3(in any skill group, there are 3 or more skills)*4 = 12 dice. It is obvious.

BP is the best general gauge of effectiveness. It is not a gauge of effectiveness in a specfic area. Indeed if BP were to be used to gauge effectiveness within a certain area, then only those BP spent within that area should count towards judging that character's effectiveness. If dice pool is to be the gauge of general effectiveness, then the sum of all dice pools should be used, instead of certain specific "pertinent" dice pools.

SM, 176, "Such commands carry no weight beyond the immediate impetus, and the affected characters will quickly reassert their wits, returning to their original course of action."

Great, you made them waste one action. Whats your point? It really is not that broken. Also, theres a good case to say that you can't target more than 5 people (because they can't get more than a +5 bonus to resist), or, that anyone in earshot is targetting, including your teammates. Makes it a lot less useful in random battle encounters then doesn't it?

Now you're nerfing the power after the fact. One round of inaction is more than enough. Besides which, the power can be repeated at a penalty; and with the dice pool a leadermancer will be tossing about, that penalty will be negligible for the first five or so attempts.

The power is not that broken, as long as you don't have someone who knows how to use it to max effect. And then, you have someone with a one-size-fits-all answer to just about every question. The game becomes "play until Leadermancer uses Commanding Voice", and then everything ends. Sure, we could apply nerfs after the fact, reinterpret things unfairly towards the leadermancer, but that just increases the problem. Now that player will be convinced you're out to get him, and he'll come up with an even more overpowered character, since you just rendered his last one useless.

How am I nerfing it after the fact? Thats how the power works. Yeah, great, you made them stand still. Good for you. How is that broken? It doesn't kill them. They have a chance to resist it, and it really only has combat use. Oh yeah, and if they're smart, or maybe have a mage or someone with knowledge of the ability, they might just turn on some select sound filters. And not have to worry about making any kind of test at all after the first round. And at 200-600 nuyen per guard, I can't see any reason they wouldn't have them.

Where else can this be abused? Social situations? "Sell it to me cheaper." "Ok... 1 nuyen less". You didn't tell him how much cheaper. And anything that takes more than one turn to complete? Not gonna happen either.

More martial arts practitioners here than I thought, but it makes sense considering I was assuming those posting in this thread would have more of an interest in martial arts. It's only a logical assumption.

I've practiced traditional Chung Do Kwan TKD for just over 15 years now. It's very close to Shotokan Karate as the founder Wong Kuk Lee studied and practiced with Funikoshi during/around post WWII Japanese occupation of Korea. We share a lot of the same kata but there are little fundamental differences. Simple things like hand position when drawing for a block or body alignment before and after. I've practiced with a lot of shotokan practitioners in friendly exchanges and there's a lot of compatibility so once we get past the conversion of Japanese names to Korean everything is smooth. A little bit of trivia, the man who taught Bruce Lee the sidekick was Jun Ree, a Chung Do Kwan student out of Korea. After that, Bruce wouldn't leave the kick out of any of his films and even used it to finish off Han in Enter the Dragon...

pointless dribble, but here's where I was going with this.

Seeing that a lot of people practice, has arsenal made playing a martial arts based unarmed fighter in 4e more accessible? How many have used this quality to play a character that hits a bit closer to home? I know I tried to play a martial art character out of the box when 4e had no supplement core expansions and was thoroughly disappointed in the lack of ways to express the diversity of martial arts. Especially after I looked through the cannon companion in 3e and saw all the things I was missing out on.

You're nerfing it by saying that it can't affect more than 5 people (it can, by RAW), or suddenly giving everyone and their uncle Select Sound filters that are magically tuned to the leadermancer's voice (who'll have a vocal range extender, anyway, so that won't work). Furthermore, one turn is sufficient to buy stuff at half price, and trying to twist request around so that they don't work is also nerfing the power. Do you do the same thing on low-force Influence spells?

Also, this trick can be repeated many times without risk of drain, or any significant penalty.


I like the concept of making them advantages, but the problem here is that they cost a bit much for what you get. 5BP is a lot for some of them. A more varied cost based on the power of the abilities would make a big difference. I also don't agree with what maneuvers each art gets, but that's to be expected.

Sure, but it also doesn't say you can selectively do it, just that they're in earshot of you. So I'd say it effects teammates who can hear and understand you just as much as badguys. Much like area spells.

As far as select sound filters, after they're standing there for one turn, you can bet they'll dial them to block sounds from "that" guy.

One turn is not enough to buy stuff at half price. When was the last time a shopkeeper rung something up for you within 3 second from start to finish of the transaction? If anything, he'd probably stop mid transaction, and go "wait, why am I ringing this up for that guy at half price, screw that."

Influence is a different beast altogether. It is a permanent spell, and specifically says they think its their own idea. Not to mention that if they fail the initial casting, they can only resist it again if the wrongness of it is brought up to them.

Influence "you want to sell to me at half price" works just fine, though, they might not be sure why they're doing it.

Commanding voice, "sell to me at half price" does not.

So, you get it basically once per combat for every group of guys before they hit their select sound filters. 1 turn still is plenty useful for your team to put a hurting on them, and is still quite powerful for a 0.5PP power. Of course, you could always have your team setup with select sound filters so they don't get hit by the effect too. There is a reason there is a 5 word limit, to avoid wordsmithing your requests to be unbalanced. So no, saying "sell it to me cheaper" doesn't mean hes going to give it to you for anything more than 1 nuyen less. Find a different gimmick (influence) for that.

Once again, you're deliberately nerfing the power by giving everyone and their brother a Select Sound Filter. Which, IIRC, can be defeated by the Vocal Range Extender by just changing your voice. Not to mention that it's a simple action to use an item like that, so the Leadermancer will get a second shot at them.

You're also saying that you'd deliberately block certain uses of the power which are totally legal. Telling someone to shoot themselves is a valid order, it just takes more successes to pull it off. Given that we're discussing 51 dice vs 1 or 2, you're going to be able to buy a critical success plus some. Even if you make them roll, we're discussing an average of 17 successes to the targets absolute max of 7. *Ten* net successes, on average, assuming the enemy rolls all successes. That's over twice as many as you need for a crit! More likely, the opposition will only get 2 successes, leaving you with a net of 15! That's almost equal to four critical successes!

In addition, you're reinterpeting the rules so that it now affects the teammates, instead of just a select group of targets. In actuality, you can use Commanding Voice on individual targets if you so choose. Selecting a group is just more efficient.

Oh, and am I deliberately nerfing guns by giving everyone and their brother armor? What about by giving them good reaction? I guess I should just have everyone have straight 1's and no equipment at all, would that be fair?

Select sound filters would be good for guards. They're cheap. They would have them. They are smart enough that you can tell it to "filter out that guy" and it would. Changing your voice would not beat it.

Yes, it is a simple action to filter, last I checked, leadermancer didn't have 2-4 IPs. Also, now that I look at it, its a leadership test that the adept makes. So the social modifiers table should apply. 51 dice -4 enemy, -4 disastrous, +2 to his resist for ace in the hole (HTRT), -3 subject has superior rank (security guard > trespasser), -3 character is not part of subjects social strata. That makes it, 37 dice, to his (assuming one of them has a 6 willpower), 13 dice. 4 hits to 12. Still 8 net, but not nearly as much as before.

Is valid to say, yes, will actually be carried out, up to the GM. Unless you're telling someone who is borderline suicidal already to begin with, it wouldn't fly. You could tell someone "have a heart attack" just as well, and by your reasoning, they would. Hell, "Die from a brain aneurysm" is a valid command according to you. So, no, that would not fly.

No, I'm not, it says the targets, which have to be able to understand and hear the adept. Mages area spells hit targets who are in the area of effect. Can your teammates understand and hear you? Then they're a target. No reinterpretation needed. You are selectively interpreting it to be unbalanced when it isn't.

Why would they be good for guards? Skinlinks are even cheaper, yet I don't see them on the standard equipment list for guards.

Neither do most guards. But at any event, the leadermancer is also an adept, so picking up an extra IP isn't hard.

Most *runners* don't have a 6 willpower. You're really pushing things if every group of guards suddenly has a 6 willpower.


Oh, come on now. We're talking 8-15 net successes! With that many, the mage could successfully use a Control Thoughts to get someone to kill themselves.


Except it's not a mage's spell. Commanding Voice specifically states that you can target an individual or group of whatever size you wish:

So, you can "target" multiple individuals, but you don't have to target all of them.

What standard equipment list for guards?


Actually, it can be, I'd like to see a ledermancer build with multiple IPs that hasn't sacrificed any of his leading ability to do so. While you're at it, I'd like to see just the basic 51 dice throwing commanding voice leadermancer. Because, if I really felt like holding RAW above all things, the leadermancer ONLY gets leadership + charisma vs target willpower + leadership. Thats it. No dice pool mods at all unless its a skill mod (improved ability etc). Cause the book doesn't say plus or minus any mods so then it must mean just cha+leadership.


Group of 6 guards, one probaby has a 4-6 willpower.


Yeah, 8-15 net sucesses with a magical voice, that makes them want to impulsively do what you say. Not, will carry it out no matter how stupid the command is. So, in your game, if a leadermancer walked up to someone and said "die" would they? But they got 15 net hits!!! THEY HAVE TO OBEY!


No, it isn't. But it doesn't specifically state that.


Incorrect. It is simply saying that if multiple people are targetted, this is how it works. It does not say "the adept can selectively choose his targets from those who can hear him". Everyone in earshot is affected equally.


Everything about this ignores the "gamemaster's choice" section of being able to decide if they listen or not. Is it imbalanced if they listen? Then chose for them not to listen. Wow, look, its as easy as that! And guess what, its equally valid for the GM to choose either way.


Edit: Found the leadermancer thread. Looks like 8 charisma, 2 dragonslayer mentor spirit, 7 leadership (specialized in persuasion, I'd argue not applicable to commanding voice, 5 kinesics, 3 improved ability leadership, and 3 taillored pheromones (which state they grant no bonus to magical abilities). I add that up to 25 dice. After penalties he has 11 dice. Versus our group of guards (lets say the highest around is a 4) of 11 dice. Wow... look at that, they're equal.

Now, please post your 51 dice leadermancer, because that definately isn't the one in the original thread.

The one in the BBB.


Just switch the pornomancer around a bit. That's basically all there is to it.


Not even close. A 6 willpower is supposed to be among the most determined people on earth. Heck, most runners, who are supposed to be the elite, don't even have a willpower of 6. Most *mages* don't have a willpower that high.


That's right, they do. Glad to see you're finally getting it!

Seriously, though, that's pretty much what the rules say:

So, it's a spectrum of choices. The more net successes, the more likely it is to go the adept's way. With fifteen net successes, it makes it pretty damn likely that they'll obey, regardless of how silly or suicidal the order is. The only way out is to say: "No! No way, no matter how many successes you roll!", which is effectively Nerfing the Power.


Where on earth does it say that? What it says is:

So, you can choose to target multiple people, as well as how many.

Yes, it's "GM's choice", but it's also tempered by how many successes the PC gets. If they score ridiculous overkill on successes, things are more likely to go their way. If you keep nerfing it by declaring that it'll always turn into a few turns of confusion, regardless of how well the roll, players will notice and complain that you're targeting them unfairly.

I agree that the more outrageous the order, the more difficult it should be to pull off. Nonetheless, due to Critical Success, it is almost always possible for the pornomancer or its kin to pull it off.

However, consider, unless shooting oneself has become a free action or some such, you still need to wait for the guards to execute the order. Plenty of time for someone to throw a monkey wrench into your order.

As far as expressing the diversity of the martial arts, the basic rules did it fairly well, in my opinion, since SR4 is a fairly abstract system. You could hit people, knock people down, grapple them, disarm them, block - all you needed was to add detail ("I spin around with a screaming roundhouse kick to his head" instead of "I hit him").

I am a bit ambivalent about the martial arts rules. On the one hand, I like the new options the the martial arts styles and maneuvers give you. But on the other hand, it's an undeniable power creep, which I thought SR4 was trying to avoid. And martial artists are less likely to be diversified in other areas, since they basically need to spend 35 more points or so to be really good at what they do (although this problem goes away in higher BP or karmagen games). But at least it's power creep that makes using martial arts a bit more fun and interesting - and can result in master martial artists who go about it in significantly different ways.

The possibility of up to +6 or +7 to DV (if you interpret the rules that way) is the only thing that rubs me the wrong way. Not so much from a power level perspective, but for the same reason that I don't like empathy software. It's something that seems to give excessive bonuses compared to other things that give bonuses to it. And it breaks logic to me - I can see ceramic lacing in you bones turning your fists into battering rams. I can see a magical ability letting you strike with superhuman force. But I can't see mundane training letting you do more damage than someone swinging a freaking claymore! A +2 DV is fine, but going above that strains plausibility to me.

I disagree with most of your nerfs, but I agree with you there. I think that's the way the power does work. It doesn't say "make a leadership test". Instead, it describes two dice pools that contest each other, similarly to how Enthralling Performance is described. A leadermancer, or even a fairly typical face, would still have an advantage over most opponents with this power, though.

This reminds me of the whole list of quotes about combat where bad stuff happens. "Speed is life..." for fighter pilots. "A stopped tank is a dead tank..." for armored vehicle crews. "He who hesitates, meditates..." for martial artists. There's more but I just woke and the obvious point of them is that inaction or lack of effective movement will get you dead faster than just about anything else in a combat situation.

The idea that "Stand still/up!" by a character in combat with backup from even a mediocre Sammy-type isn't putting you on a one-way trip to the hurt locker is...I don't know right now but it's definitely not on my list of greatest thoughts of all time.

I believe Cain's point was that the corp researcher will have DPs of 12+ in career-related knowledge skills, but will not be a challenge for the team at all due to a complete lack of combat / hacking / negotiation ability. He may be built with 800BP, but unless the characters are entering a science fair, they'll run rough-shod over him in any opposed test the PCs would care about.


Total dice is irrelevant if you're facing that opponent in a gunfight. Total dice is irrelevant if you're negotiating with that NPC. Total dice is irrelevant if you're attempting to counterspell that NPC.

95% of NPCs or more are used as one-shots to challenge the PCs in a specific way (online, in combat, whatever) and will only use a small subset of the skills a real person would posess. I can build a 100BP character that's better at combat than a 600 BP character, and if the PCs only ever meet them once, in a combat, which one is the greater 'challenge?'

BP != challenge rating. As Cain stated, the difficulty the PCs will have in overcoming an NPC is based on the dice pools the NPC will be using against them, not on how many ranks he has in Knowledge: Ballet.

For the martial arts, from the little black box of text on 156, your max +DV is limited to your Unarmed Combat skill rating, so to get +7, you have to have taken Aptitude, meaning the most you can have at chargen with 400 BP is +5, +4 if you want to be an Adept.

Seeing as how an Adept with 6 Magic can start with Ctritical Strike 6, I don't really see that as a huge deal, though it does irk me a bit if they have +4 DV from Martial Arts and +6 from Critical Strike.

I would say that if you have a specialization for Unarmed Combat, it cannot be Martial Arts in general, but a specific style and it only applies when using that style exclusively. In effect your chosing to focus on making contact, not maximizing power. I believe the desctription when Arsenal talks about Blades(Kung Fu +2) and how it doesn't apply with a kitchen knife backs up that interpretation. So if you have Unarmed (Boxing), and want to get +2 dice to hit, you're limited to +2 DV from Boxing (with no extra benefit from having Muay Thai or Wildcat.

The way I see it, if you want to blow 250-300 BP to get 16 dice to hit and a base unarmed DV of 16P as an elven phys. Adept, be my guest. Your mental attributes are going to suffer, so expect to be targeted first by every two bit mage with Mana Bolt once people learn about you. With only a 2 or 3 Willpower, you'll fall pretty quick.

And my point is that an NPC with more BPs will be a greater challenge when compared to a similar NPC built with less BPs.
Precisely my point since relevance only applies at specific times. You do not know what skill or dice pool will be relevant until you come to a specific situation. There are no encounters in SR4. BP != challenge rating is true, precisely because there is no such thing as Challenge Rating in SR4. You should not plan encounters and use dice pools to determine the CR.

If you have a 100 BP character that is better at combat than a 600 BP character, then the 600BP character could have significantly altered the odds of the PCs of ever facing him in combat in the first place. Perhaps the 100 BP fighter you got is the bodyguard/henchman of the 600BP mastermind. See you are thinking in a straight D&D encounter format, SR4 simply does not work this way.

The dice pool method is analgous to the way SR3 rated the NPCs, dice pools of the NPCs were tied to the dice pools of the PCs. No matter what the PCs did, the NPCs were uniformly either worse(Inferior), equal, or better(Superior and up). It meant that the Superior Martial Artist NPC could outpunch, outshoot, outdrive, and somehow outsling spells and outcounterspell the PCs(because his dice pools were uniformly better in all relevant skills). Using BPs you could have the Superior Mage NPC outcast the Mage PC but still (being limited by his BPs) have less Pistols dice than the Street Sam PC. Even if you use this dice pool method to rate the encounter(as opposed to a single NPC), it would mean that in a Superior rated encounter, the NPCs would have more dice to do anything the PCs are doing and hence do it better. Even the so called tactics that the PCs used will be overmatched by the tactics that the NPCs use by dint of their better dice pools (more "tactics" dice to think up better tactics). BP and total dice are always relevant.

Why would people "learn" about that character, or target that specific character with mana spells? Or target that character first? That sounds more like GM metagaming to me.

to be honest, the more I think about super high damage values in unarmed combat, the less I have a problem with them. It is twinky, but it's an equal representation of years and a multitude of experience. Lets face it, even after 15 years of TKD, I still don't want to go toe to toe with someone who has earned the title of Master in an equivalent art. I can pretty much guarantee that match would be over, one hit, one KO.

Well, the way I look at it, it depends when these targets happen.

If said elf physad with 16P is just standing there when combat starts, yeah, that's GM metagaming.

If the dude smashes two of the mage's team into a bloody pulp in one hit each, and then cracks his knuckles at the third, the mage bombing him is perfectly understandable. But the same could be argued for the dude with the heavy pistol and tons of dice who guns down two of the dudes right off the bat.

Now, I COULD see things getting hairy if, say, there's a bigass ork with a combat axe(7 Strength, damage 8P-still very dangerous, don't get me wrong), and said 16P prettyboy elf standing next to him, there's a good chance on hand that the mages might indeed bomb that bigass ork FIRST...when their bigger threat is actually the prettyboy standing next to him, when then proceeds to take them all apart. Intimidation can occasionally have it's drawbacks.

Eventually something happens and word gets out. Someone survives or your hackers misses a camera, but sooner or later, something gets missed. I'd factor that in to noteriety, the higher it is, the more likely someone knows it's stupid to let you within 10 meters of them.

The way I see it, if you're working the security force for a building, aren't they in radio contact? Isn't there a chance of a guard watching a security camara catching the martial artist taking out 5 guys in 3 seconds? Wouldn't you call for magical support if it's available?

There is no "standard equipment list for guards" listed.


Found him. Here
"That's 8 (Charisma) + 6 (Con) + 2 (specialization) +3 (Glamour) +6 (Global Fame) +2 (First Impression) +5 (Kinesics) + 3 (Improved Ability) +3 (Tailored Pheromes) +2 (Enhanced Pherome Receptors) +1 (Vocal Range Enhancer) +2 (Minor Biosculpting) +6 (Empathy Software) +1 (symbiosis gives bonus to social skills vs. inhabitants of her neighborhood) +1 (effects of eX) = 51 dice."
Assuming we swap con for leadership. There isn't a valid spec for commanding people. So that changes it to 8 cha + 6 leadership + 3 glamour + (your status of famous doesn't work for telling people what to do) + (first impression doesn't work because you're not trying to fit in) + 5 kinescis +3 imp. ability + (pheromones explicitly don't count for magical effects) + (enhanced pheremone receptors don't count because you have to be close enough to smell them, and this is combat) + (gm discresion for vocal range enhancer +1 bonus, I don't think hitting a note just right would help for ordering someone) + (them being attracted to the character doesn't make them listen any better) + 6 empathy software + 1 symbiosis + 1 eX. Total of 33 dice. Heading over to that great social chart, for telling someone to shoot themselves, they get -4 enemy, -4 disastrous, (target gets +2 for ace in the hole HTRT), -3 subject has superior rank (guard > intruder), -3 char not part of subjects social strata. So, that drops it from 33 down to 19. About 6 hits. Taking 6 guards, the highest willpower of 5, +5 cause theres 6, +2 for the ace in the hole = 12 dice, 4 hits. Thats 2 net hits. Yeah, they aren't going to shoot themselves, even for a modified pornomancer.


Yes, most mages do. A lot of runners and such do too. I think that the security team leader would likely have a 5-6 willpower too.


With the 2 hits the leadpornomancer gets, no, they don't.


2 net hits, does not mean they will kill themselves for you.


No, you can't. It never says that you can choose who is targetted. Merely that multiple people can be targetted, and that those who can hear and understand you are valid targets.


Yes, it is. But even your vaulted leadomancer can't get more than 2 net hits against a team of security guards. And if we go straight by the book, its leadership + cha vs leadership + wil. In fact, it isn't too outrageous to think that the guards leader would have a leadership skill of 2-3. Giving them another hit. Making it only 1 net success. Wow, look at that, doesn't work.

I don't think the social skills are that effective that even if you get 20 success (not to mention that 1-2) one can just march into somewhere and order people to commit suicides. With a great leadership roll the guards might be reluctant to fight but instead just go home (and call in the big guns) but to shoot themselves, hell no. Same with the pornomancer build: You see THE hottest woman in the galaxy during the run who is offering herself to you while on a run... so you knock her lights out for later use and do the run first With a spell both might work but with a social roll, nope.

But like Elfenrir said, that would pretty much apply to any character who is good at any kind of physical combat. Heck, a martial artist, one shot killer or not, would be pretty far down on my list of priorities compared to the troll with the Panther Cannon, or even the sammie with a pistol. The martial artist has to get in close - magic isn't your only option; you can simply shoot him.

Being a close combat specialist in SR4 is like being a sniper - you have something lethal that you're really good at, but compared to the sammie with his small arms, and the mage with his spells and spirits, you don't get nearly as many opportunities to use your schtick. Close combat specialists desperately need other skills, because otherwise, they will be bored a lot of the time.

600 BP character:

All attributes at 2.
No active skills
Tons of obscure Knowledge skills at 2.
50 BP worth of useless or redundant gear, or 25 months of High lifestyle.

I'd like to see that character be a challenge for anyone. He doesn't have a dice pool above 4 at all, all active skills at 1, and no gear to make up the difference.

On the other hand, I take 400 BP's and build a pornomancer. A much greater threat.


Check the BBB under the chapter "Friends and Foes", p 275:

That's the standard loadout for a Corporate Security Unit guard.

I've yet to see a single mage hardmax willpower. Quickly surfing the Dumpshock character archives, I don't see any non-dwarfs with a Willpower of 6, and I don't even see many dwarves with a willpower that high. 5's are about as high as they get. But since we're talking about "standard" team leaders, the CorpSec Lieutenant is also a full magician, and has a Willpower of 4. The grunts have a willpower of 3.

You've misread a lot of what the leadermancer has to offer. For example, the vocal range enhancer does work; smells carry quite a long ways, and most combats are within 30 meters or less; there are specializations under Leadership, and the listed specializations are not the only ones possible; and so on and so forth. So, we're back to 51 dice versus 9. Even at -14 to the leadermancer, we're still talking 37 dice, or 12.33 successes versus a maximum of 9. That's still a crit. As a more realistic roll on the part of the guards (3), we've still almost got 10 net successes on them. That might not be enough to make them kill themselves if the GM is out to nerf the power; but that sure as hell makes surrender a attractive option.

So, we not only have a super-face, with 30+ dice for most social tests, he can end combats in five words or less. He dominates two aspects of the game, and depending on the rest of the build, can probably participate in the rest. Not only will all social situations be handled by the leadermancer, all combats will only last until he takes his turn. Besides which, you only need one net to make them stand around confused for one full turn, more than enough time for him to throw a grenade.

It would take serious GM metagaming to defend against a super combination like that. Suddenly every guard, every shopkeeper, every Johnson, fixer, and street kid will have select sound filters tuned to the leadermancer's voice. I prefer to deal with this problem my way: I ask the players nicely to not do it. I ask them to cap their dice pools, so it won't become an issue.

And Cain has hit right on the head with this last bit what I deal with every Sunday night. Of course, we lucked out in that our porno/leadermancer only tosses a maximum of 20 dice when everything is rolling but it still is a quite effective combination, especially with Edge being rolled now and again.

6.66 average hits without Edge use or "I take five successes" FTW anyone?

No, I haven't. The vocal range extender is GM discretion. I'd like to hear your explanation of how being able to hit any note you want helps you give a magical order to a group of guards. Specializations not listed in the book are not RAW, and are not valid. Under 30 meters, in a fight, I don't think the guy will be able to effectively smell out all 6 guards. So, it is not 51 dice to 9. Also, I'd love to hear your explanation of how being globally famous makes the guards want to kill themselves.

So, we don't have super face. Cause hes globally famous. And he can not end combats in five words or less. Give me reasons as to why you think those bonuses apply, because they really don't. He dominates the average social test, sure. But he is also noticeable, globally famous, and if he does anything remotely illegal, probably will be involved in a scandal and have to spend lots of nuyen to grease his way out of it, or get charged. (Or shot).

Aren't you aware of the effects frequencies have on human emotions? Certain subsonics can cause fear, certain ultrasonics can cause anxiety. Even within a more normal range, people respond differently to voices of a different pitch. For example, a child's voice causes a different psychological reaction than an adult's. A soft woman's voice causes a different reaction than a harsh male voice. And so on and so forth. Here is one study that I discovered in about 10 seconds of Google-fu.

So, we're back to 51 dice versus a maximum of 9.


If he's running the shadows, he's already prepared to face the scandals that might ensue. However, since he's successfully getting people to kill themselves or surrender, if he packs some Laes he won't be leaving any witnesses behind.

No, we aren't. Vocal range extender is a 1 die modifier. Now please explain how the others still work. (Including tailored pheromones, which explicitly don't add to magical effects.)

I think I already have.

Besides which, even by your most conservative estimate, the leadermancer will be scoring 2-3 net successes. That's more than enough to make them obey a command of "We won't hurt you, Surrender!" The 17 successes he'll actually be getting is just icing on the cake.

All that commanding depents on the guard actually hearing and understaqnding what the leadermancer is saying, definedly not a sure think in midlle of combat.

And it still isn't mind affecting spell, but just a verbal suggestion that the opponent might obey if he/she feels like doing it. Even the best leader can't tell the opponent to change sides with just a simple roll, no matter how good you are.

Even if the greatest speaker in the whole world would tell the most stubborn dumpshockers to stfu, how many of you would obey?

You have not. You have explained 1 modifier, out of the many that are present. Tell me how tailored pheromones applies, at the very least.

Most conservative estimate was 1-2 net successes. Thats more than enough to make them stop and think about it. Before, you were saying it was because it was a critical success that they'd obey a command like surrender or kill yourself in mid-combat. Now you don't have a critical success. So they wouldn't listen.

He won't be getting 17 successes.

Actually, I never said anything about "Kill yourself". *You* did that. I said "surrender", and even you agreed that was more likely with only a few net successes. So, the 2-3 that your underestimation would likely result in a surrender; and 17 successes will nail it down.


That's nerfing the power as well. The whole point of the power is to get people to do things they don't want to do. Saying: "They'll only do it if they feel like it, even if you get 17 net successes" means the power is essentially worthless.

Again, you will only be getting 1 or 2 successes against a group of guards. You've failed repeatedly to address the fact that the vast majority of the pornomancers bonuses are not applicable to a commanding voice check.

sorry, I just read the last page...

How on earth did a topic about Martial Arts get into an argument about Leadermancers?

You're the one who indicated 2 or 3 net successes. And again, that's more than enough to get them to surrender. And when we ignore your reading that's been deliberately nerfed, we're discussing a more realistic 17 successes. I covered about six to eight of your nerfs about fifteen posts back.

What power?? It's a skill last I checked. If you roll 17 success on mechanic skill, do you also create never ending powersource or atomic bomb out of a matchbox? Skill != Power. 4-5 success gets you the best possible result. Anything above that isn't going to change it so radically that you blow up a world with a sneeze if your ranged combat roll is 17 success.

When you're discussing Commanding Voice, it is an adept power. In order to use it, you do need to make an opposed Leadership check. When you convert a pornomancer, we're discussing somewhere in the neighborhood of 51 dice for the opposed check. Most grunts don't even have the Leadership skill, so they'd be defaulting to Willpower -1, which leaves them with a dice pool of 2. If the leadermancer chooses to target 6+ targets, they get a +1 to their dice pool for every extra member, up to a max penalty of +5. So, they get a max of 7 dice.

The leadermancer will roll an average of 17 successes. Even if they roll all successes, he'll have a net of 10. More realistically, they'll only roll 2 successes, giving him a net of 15. The effectiveness of Commanding Voice is dependent on how many net successes you get; at 15+ net successes, "surrender" will be a viable option and suicide will be a distinct possibility.

Hey guys, there's a whole other thread discussing leadermancers andother various tangents. Please bring this discussion over there. Stick to the original topic please.

I'm not? I'm discussing about leadership/con/whatever as a skill. Well, actually I was discussing about martial arts but somewhere on the line that kinda got lost the track completely.

It looks like the Arsenal Errata has resolved the DV bonus issue:

Well, there we have it. At least now it's in writing about the whole thing. +3 DV is pretty damned nice, though. I'd be willing to dump the previous +2 houserule for that. 1 extra isn't that bad at all.

That's almost exactly how I felt. I would have house-ruled +2, but +3 is fine - I only deviate from RAW when I feel something is really broken. +3, I can definitely live with.

But that errata would imply that DVs were meant to be able to be stacked in the first place.