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Lebo77
post Nov 10 2008, 09:47 PM
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Related Question:

What would suppressive fire with a HV sub-mac in each hand look like? Maybe the best way to use two HV weapons is to NOT aim.
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Fortune
post Nov 10 2008, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (jago668 @ Nov 11 2008, 08:40 AM) *
Myself I would houserule you get recoil compensation on both, could fire two long bursts (one from each weapon); however uncompensated recoil would carry over.

As far as I am concerned, there are no house rules in this statement.
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Tarantula
post Nov 10 2008, 11:35 PM
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More evidence to the cause that you can fire a long burst from each weapon is that in both the recoil description and the ranged modfiers table, it says that long bursts suffer -5 recoil first burst, and -6 for the second.

As far as the recoil carrying over... one only has to look at the ranged modifiers table. Its pretty simple. Is this the first long burst fired in the round? Ok, -5 penalty negated by RC of the weapon. Is this the second long burst fired? Add -6 to the penalty.

Though, interestingly enough, short bursts specifically state -2 for the first burst, and an additional -3 for the second, while long bursts merely state -5 for the first, and -6 for the second, not additional.

I definitely could see the dev's saying that separate weapons means separate recoil penalties.

Hrm... for now, in my games, I play as fortune does, but I can see arguements for either way.
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Falconer
post Nov 11 2008, 01:41 AM
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QUOTE (Lebo77 @ Nov 10 2008, 04:47 PM) *
Related Question:

What would suppressive fire with a HV sub-mac in each hand look like? Maybe the best way to use two HV weapons is to NOT aim.


Just like suppressive fire with 2 of any other SMG's... they'd roll twice as the area is doubly suppressed to avoid getting hit.

Ironically enough HVAR's only fire 20 rounds when used for suppressive fire just like a normal gun. Those rules remain unchanged.

Miniguns burn through 30 rounds and get an 50% increase in suppressive damage for it though.

I'm on page w/ Fortune and Tarantula here. (keep in mind it's possible to fully compensate all the recoil this way if you really trick out for this, gas3, grip, weight, high str, 2 weapons doubles your available recoil comp)

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Tarantula
post Nov 11 2008, 03:03 AM
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You can't suppressive fire with 2 guns, as its a complex action to do it with one.
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Cabral
post Nov 11 2008, 04:38 AM
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I have to agree with the separate recoil per weapon group. It's my understanding that recoil primarily reflects barrel rise and shooting one weapon does not cause the second to rise.

Mind you, I've never fired anything with more recoil than a 20 lb pull, if that, bow in high school ... but that's my 2 nuyen in spite of, or because of, that ...
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Drogos
post Nov 11 2008, 02:39 PM
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The -6 Recoil Modifier is in the case of the weapon being used with a long burst as the second simple action that round. I would be inclined to interpret the ruling in the same way as Fortune and others have mentioned.
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Tarantula
post Nov 11 2008, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE (Drogos @ Nov 11 2008, 07:39 AM) *
The -6 Recoil Modifier is in the case of the weapon being used with a long burst as the second simple action that round. I would be inclined to interpret the ruling in the same way as Fortune and others have mentioned.


But long bursts explicitly say that you can only fire one per pass.

Edit: Ahh, if you go short burst -2 then long burst -6. Got it.
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Muspellsheimr
post Nov 11 2008, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Nov 10 2008, 08:03 PM) *
You can't suppressive fire with 2 guns, as its a complex action to do it with one.

Yes, you can. You just split your dice pool as normal for two-weapon combat.
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Tarantula
post Nov 11 2008, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Nov 11 2008, 11:14 AM) *
Yes, you can. You just split your dice pool as normal for two-weapon combat.


No, you can't. That is a simple action to attack with two weapons at once by splitting your pool. It is a complex action to use suppressive fire. You can't make a simple action and a complex action in one turn, so you can't do it.
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WeaverMount
post Nov 11 2008, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Nov 11 2008, 01:29 PM) *
No, you can't. That is a simple action to attack with two weapons at once by splitting your pool. It is a complex action to use suppressive fire. You can't make a simple action and a complex action in one turn, so you can't do it.

Yup letter of the RAW the only mention of splitting DP across to weapons is a using 1 simple action to make to regular attacks. Personally I'd allow a player to duplicate the mechanic for twin suppression.
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Thadeus Bearpaw
post Nov 11 2008, 11:51 PM
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I'd agree with applying the RC across each discharge of rounds over the pass. So a person firing two narrow long bursts, using two submachine guns modified with HVAR, would have a total of 4 discharges (inb4 lulz). Let's say they have RC 3.

First pool 1st gun: -2
First pool 2nd gun: -2
Second pool 2nd gun: -9
Second pool 2nd gun: -9

At least that's what I got from the reading, even if this isn't technically allowable due to rules minutate, there's not a lot of players on my end that would hit very much with those second pools, so all there doing is wasting ammo which is just fine with me.
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Sceptic
post Nov 12 2008, 12:16 AM
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QUOTE (Thadeus Bearpaw @ Nov 12 2008, 12:51 PM) *
[...]Let's say they have RC 3.

First pool 1st gun: -2
First pool 2nd gun: -2
Second pool 2nd gun: -9
Second pool 2nd gun: -9

-4 on both of the first pools; uncompensated recoil from each weapon affects both guns.
-16 on both of the second pools. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
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Thadeus Bearpaw
post Nov 12 2008, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (Sceptic @ Nov 11 2008, 06:16 PM) *
-4 on both of the first pools; uncompensated recoil from each weapon affects both guns.
-16 on both of the second pools. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)


Firing two long bursts? p.143 BBB

Long Bursts
Long bursts use up 6 bullets each. Firing a long burst imposes a -5 dice pool modifier if it is the first burst fried that action phase, -6 if its the second. I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers if the recoil is -5 and you have 3 RC wouldn't it be -2. Unless you're counting the off weapon thing. Are you talking about full bursts? I'm not trying to be contrary but I don't understand.
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Sceptic
post Nov 12 2008, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (Thadeus Bearpaw @ Nov 12 2008, 03:11 PM) *
Firing two long bursts? p.143 BBB

Long Bursts
Long bursts use up 6 bullets each. Firing a long burst imposes a -5 dice pool modifier if it is the first burst fried that action phase, -6 if its the second. I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers if the recoil is -5 and you have 3 RC wouldn't it be -2. Unless you're counting the off weapon thing. Are you talking about full bursts? I'm not trying to be contrary but I don't understand.

Top of p142 BBB. "Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon apply to the other weapon."
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Madrigan
post Nov 12 2008, 03:33 AM
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QUOTE (Sceptic @ Nov 12 2008, 11:42 AM) *
Top of p142 BBB. "Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon apply to the other weapon."


That section refers to splitting your dice pool to fire two weapons in the same Simple Action.
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Sceptic
post Nov 12 2008, 03:44 AM
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QUOTE (Madrigan @ Nov 12 2008, 04:33 PM) *
That section refers to splitting your dice pool to fire two weapons in the same Simple Action.

And he was talking about firing two long bursts each on two HV weapons, unless I'm mistaken.
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TheOOB
post Nov 12 2008, 07:03 AM
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If I may direct you to pg 163 of arsenal

"It is possible, however, to fire a full-auto long burst simultaneously with another weapon, or even to fire long bursts with two weapons at the same time"

When wielding two weapons, you can fire two long-bursts a round, I don't think the rules get any cleaner then that.

I've always assumed that when firing two guns as the same time, they both suffer the same recoil penalties. If you fire them with two seperate actions, the first shot only suffers it's own penalty, while the other gun suffers from both.
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Meschler
post Nov 12 2008, 07:13 AM
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Hi Folks,

first i want to thank you for all your answers.

The discussion in our gaming group goes exactely the same way. I have heared allmost the same arguments there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (one part interpred the rules in this way the other part read it in an other way)

As ever, i have PM'ed FrankTrollmann and Synner and write a mail to the folks at info@shadowrun4.com for a definitiv answer. The first one who have answered me was FrankTrollman.

Here is his answer:

QUOTE
FrankTrollman wrote:
In any case, to answer your question "as intended" or whatever is long beyond my powers. What I can do is tell you what the basic book actually says on the issue. The book normally assumes that you will either be attempting to fire your guns together in the same Simple Action or that you will fir only one gun during an action phase.

Recoil: As you've doubtless noticed, the rules on page 142 explicitly state that recoil penalties accumulate for one weapon. There is an additional rule that if you combine shots into a single SA that your uncompensated recoil from both weapons adds together (this rule is on page 141). Since you are not dong that, this is not a problem. Recoil from the left gun in the first SA does not apply to a shot with the right gun in the second SA. Meaning that it counts as a "first shot" from your second gun.

Bursts: The FN 5-7C is not normally capable of firing a long burst, because Long Bursts are a subset of "Full Auto Mode" (page 143). Assuming for the moment that you actually intended to use a Steyr TMP or that your sweet mods included a FA conversion, then we're golden. The limitations on using Long Bursts within an action phase are vague as to whether they apply to just a single weapon or to the character generally (unsurprising as most weapons capable of long bursts are two handed). However, I believe that the implication is that it applies to just the weapon (as few people would seriously suggest preventing you from long bursting with two weapons in a single SA using the "fire two weapons together" option from page 141.

Altogether, it seems that with some hefty but affordable recoil comp you could very plausibly fire a long burst from one machine pistol and then a long burst from the second machine pistol as your two SAs with no penalties - and you'd still be able to get the benefits of a Smart Link or laser sight while doing it (because the huge penalties for using both in the same SA don't kick in). That's pretty impressive. But remember that if your second burst targets a second enemy that you suffer a -2 penalty for attacking a second enemy.

Good luck,

-Frank


QUOTE
Dear Frank,

i hope you can help with some questions we discuss at the dumpshock-forum at the moment. This situation have risen in our last gaming session and we couldnt find a concret answer in the rules or in the FAQ's. The search on dumpshock didnt help eather. And there i am asking for your help.

I have following situation: my new street-samurai character has ambidexterity and wants to use two machine pistols (FN 5-7Cmodified with some nice mods from arsenal). I plan to shoot with the first gun (Full long burst) with my first simple action and then shoot with the other gun with my second simple action. Now my question is: what fireing mode can i use with the second gun? Can i use only a short burst or can i shot a second long burst? And how much recoil will i take? Will i take the uncompensatet recoil from the first gun to the second gun? What recoil will i get with the shot from the second gun (is it considered as first shot (-5 recoil) or as second shot(-6 recoil))? It would be very kind if you could answer these questions. Maybe this questions and there answers could be integraded in the FAQ's for other players as well.

Thank you for your time and help.

Best wishes from Germany,
Meschler


If my reading of his answer is correct it is possible to use two long bursts with a full-auto capable weapon (i have modified a FN 5-7C in such way, including personal grip and gas vent 3 for 5 points of recoil) According Frank there is now such thing like uncompensated recoil which carries over from the first to the second gun (this only counts for fireing two weapons simultaniously) and even the long burst from the second gun is considered a first shot for calculating recoil (which means -5 recoil per gun). So my character concept is possible.

I hope this helps other players too and i play it that way as long as synner or the folks from info@shadowrun4.com send me an answer to the same question i sent them and overrule Frank.

Thank you again for your help,

Best wishes,
Meschler
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Tachi
post Nov 12 2008, 09:08 AM
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Like I said before, I'd do it just like this(^^^^), for semi-auto but I'd apply the -2 for switching targets to switching guns as well. Keep in mind that switching guns requires you to reacquire a new sight picture just as if you had switched targets, unless you are at point shooting range (call it 10 meters or less, though it's usually closer to 7 meters). But hey, that's just me. However, firing on full auto can actually push your whole body around, so I'd at least apply uncompensated recoil to the other gun if fired in the same IP.

Plus, I would never apply the recoil compensation from one gun's accessories to a different gun unless I actually pulled both triggers simultaneously. It just seems ridiculous to me.
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