Hello Folks,

as long time lurker, first time poster i have some ShadowRun 4 questions about the above topic. Maybe you can help me.

I have following situation: my new street-samurai character has ambidexterity and wants to use two automatic guns (Styr TMP modified with some nice mods from arsenal). I plan to shoot with the first gun (Full long burst) with my first simple action and then shoot with the other gun with my second simple action. Now my question is: what fireing mode can i use with the second gun? Can i use only a short burst or can i shot a second long burst? And how much recoil will i take? Will i take the uncompensatet recoil from the first gun to the second gun? What recoil will i get with the shot from the second gun (is it considered as first shot or as second shot)? Unfortunately i couldnt found any answer to these questions in the Rulebooks. The search function here as also nothing which could help me answering these questions.

Thank you for your time and help.

Best wishes from Germany,
Meschler

I'm going off the top of my head here, but if you're not firing both weapons in the same Simple Action, then you shouldn't receive the recoil penalty to the second weapon as if you were. The recoil penalty applies to any weapon fired more than once in an Action Phase, so if you shoot with two different guns you should avoid it.

You'd be able to use any Simple Action firing mode: Single Shot, Semi-Auto, or Burst Fire. You couldn't fire a second long burst, because "Long bursts only take a Simple Action, but only one long
burst can be fired in an Action Phase. An attacker could, however, fire a long burst and a short burst in the same Action Phase (or vice versa)." (Core book, p. 143)

So it looks like you'd be able to put one long burst and one short burst downrange in one Action Phase, without cumulative recoil penalties. At least according to my read of the rules. Note that if you fire the second weapon at a different target from the first, you get a -2 penalty for switching targets.

IIRC recoil always carries over to second shot no matter if your using the same or a different gun.

Actually this is a limitation on the weapon itself, because there are exceptions to this rule. The High Velocity Assault Rifles (HVAR) are able to fire two long burts...




So, i'd say you could do two long bursts, one on each weapon, but recoil would be accumulative, and carry over like first burst, second burst normally does.

Max,
Dunedin, NZ

Okay, hang on... *consults Big Black Book*

P. 142, Recoil:
"Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. [...] Burst-fire weapons receive a -2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and -3 for the second. Long bursts suffer -5 (first burst in phase) or -6 recoil (second)." Emphasis mine: weapons, not characters. I stand by my interpretation: If he doesn't fire twice in one AP, gun A fires at -5 long burst, gun B fires at -2 short burst.

Now, if he's splitting his dice pool to fire two weapons in the same Simple Action, then you're right, he gets the recoil modifiers from each weapon applied to both weapons. Which is why I would suggest not doing that.

EDIT:


Ah, you're right about the two long bursts. But I still disagree about the recoil.

I would agree with Mäx, myself. The recoil represents how the firing of the weapon affects the shooter. Using a second firearm in a different hand shouldn't be a get-out-of recoil free card! The uncompensated recoil from the first gun would apply to the other gun, and the shot from the second gun would be considered a second shot. I mean hell, using a gun in either hand, if anything, would be more awkward than using just one, even with ambidexterity. I can't see it giving the wielder such a huge benefit (effectively the equivalent of an additional 5 points of recoil compensation).

As far as firing two long bursts being a limitation on the weapon, yeah. So you can fire two long bursts - if you are firing two HVAR weapons.

Actually, I agree with you here, and it's something I would house-rule. But as far as the Rules-As-Written, it looks like it's possible.

I agree with you all for full auto and burst, but, I don't know if I'd do it that way with semi-auto though. I know most of you have more experience with this game than I do, but....

Normally it's true that "Two gun mojo can't hit shit". But if you fire the guns separately, well....

I do two gun paladin drills when I go to the range, and, while I can understand the -2 for switching targets, I was thinking the recoil modifier was just from muzzle climb. One of the drills I do is a quick draw on two randomly placed targets (moved while I'm not looking). And, I've found that with practice I can draw both pistols, put two in the x ring on the first target, then turn my head and put two in the x ring of the other target. all in less than 3 seconds. Of course, that's on semi-auto at point shooting range, I probably would apply the penalty on full auto or burst.

You may be right, I may have just learned to adjust for it.

Ok,

lets do a quick worked example to see if we are on the same mind set here.

The original post stated it was a Steye TMP, with some mods from Arsenal.

Core rules has the Steyr listed as no recoil comp, but as this is what the topic is mainly about, lets assume he somehow managed to make up 3 points of recoil comp.


Now, for a one gun, one hand example.
1st Simple action, fires long burst.
Recoil from 6 bullet long burst, first action, would be -5 to shooter. The 3 points of RC would drop the penalty to -2 dp, so first long burst would be rolled at -2 dp.

Now we know that the Steyr CAN'T fire a second long burst with the second simple action, this is a limitation of the weapon itself, only a HVAR can do that, but lets ignore that for right now as we are currently working on recoil part of the equation, so...

2nd simple action, fire 'another' long burst
Recoil carried over from first simple action of -2 is still present, and since all of the weapons RC has been used up, all of the recoil from the second long burst, -6 for six bullets, has to be added, giving a total recoil of -8 for the second long burst.

Ok, now lets assume that the shooter is going to try the same, but this time (s)he is firing with a modified Steyr (RC 3) in both hands, and has ambidexterity, so will not be suffering a penalty for firing off handed.

1st simple action, same as first example, -5 recoil, 3 of it taken by the modified RC, leaving -2 dp left over.
2nd simple action, fire a long burst with the second weapon. Now since the not being able to fire two long bursts in a action is a limitation of the weapon itself, and because the second weapon hasn't fired at all this IP, the second weapon CAN fire its long burst.
The shooter is already at -2 dp because of uncompensated recoil from the first shot. His body is shaking about due to the uncompensated recoil from the first shot. It doesn't matter how much RC the second weapon has, even if it had 20 or 30, his body has already taken uncompensated recoil from the first burst, his body is moving about and making it harder to shoot straight, and the RC of the second gun can have NO effect on this.

So, the 3 RC for the second gun CAN reduce the -6 recoil from firing a second action long burst on the second weapon, therefore the -6 will be reduced by 3, making it -3. You then add the already uncompensated recoil from the first shot (-2), for a total of -5 dp to the second shot.

Therefore he has (RAW as far as I can tell) reduced the recoil on the second shot by 3 points, the RC of our modified Steyr.

This is how I see it happening.

So 'my' summary,
1: He can fire two long bursts, because it is a limitation on most (ie non HVAR) weapons not to be able to do this, a mechanical limitation of weapons, not a limitation of the rules, and as he is firing the long bursts on different weapons, neither of the weapons are firing two long bursts on the same IP.
2: She gets the RC for each pistol, but the RC of the second pistol only reduces the recoil caused by the second weapon, it can not reduce the uncompensated recoil from the first weapon.

This second point is important, because instead of firing a long burst with A and a long burst with B, if she decided to fire a long burst with A, and only a single shot with B, even though the weapon has 3 RC, and a single shot as the second simple action only cause -1 point of recoil, the other -2 points of RC from the gun can not compensate for the -2 uncompensated recoil from the first shot, ie example 3...

Simple Action 1, long burst, -5 recoil, 3 points of recoil taken by pistol, uncompensated recoil, -2 dp to first shot,
Simple Action 2, single shot with second pistol, -1 recoil for single shot as second action, completely compensated by second pistols RC 3, but second shot still has -2 dp due to the -2 uncompensated recoil from first shot, which is now moving around the body, and the second weapons RC can do nothing about it at this stage.


Just how I see it, examples help.

Sorry it is slightly long winded, it is 3am, and I really need to go to bed now

Nite all.


Max,
Dunedin, NZ

Firstly ...



Next, from the SR4 FAQ ...



Therefore, when firing two weapons in the same Phase, even when using a Simple Action to fire one weapon and then a second Simple Action to use the other weapon, any uncompensated recoil from the first weapon would be attributed to the second action.

Thanks for finding the actual rule quotes that i was trying to remember.

Hi Folks,

thank you for your help and your answeres.

It is clear now that the uncompensated recoil from the first SMG carries over to the second gun. But do we have a perfectely clear ruling if it is possible to fire a second long burst with the second weapon?

The ruling in the Base-Rules (only 1 long burst per action phase) seems to count for one weapon use and indicates a weapon restriction. But i couldnt find a concrete ruling if it is indeed a weapn restriction or a character restriction. The existence of the highvelocity weapons indicates a weapon restriction but i am not sure about that. What do you think or do you know were i can find the ruling for this?

Thank you again for your help.

Best wishes,
Meschler

The rule stating that you can only fire one long burst in a phase is very clear. It is a limitation to the character, not the weapon. For those who would argue otherwise, I present the suppressive fire rules. For suppressive fire, you shoot 20 bullets. So obviously the gun itself is capable of firing two long bursts, but the character can only fire one a round while still keeping control of his aim. You can fire two long bursts if you are firing two HVAR weapons, because they fire more bullets, period - they fire more in full auto, more for suppressive fire, etc. But you cannot fire two long bursts with two normal full-auto-capable weapons.

It may seem like using two weapons isn't getting you that much, but actually, you are still getting recoil compensation modifiers from two different guns, so you do have an advantage over someone using only one gun.

Glyph:
Arsenal is very clear... you only need *1* HVAR weapon to fire 2 long bursts. You don't need two. It specifically says it in the section on p26 of arsenal. "Unlike normal firearms, HVARs can fire 2 long bursts in a single action phase". If you read to the end... you'll note that HVARs cannot fire short bursts... the only way they can do so legally is to fire a full burst and attack multiple targets. So it's not as if there's no penalty to their use (not including the ammo bill). To put this another way, someone using a 2 handed HVAR assault rifle, CANNOT fire a long and a short burst in a round like other weapons can. The rules specifically forbid it.

I also don't buy the suppressive fire round count argument... as the point there is you're using area suppression and not aiming like you are with controlled bursts... I think the spirit of the rules is that a normal gun can't fire more than 10 rounds in an action phase as a controlled burst. That rule is in place to stop someone from firing 2 long bursts to get 12 rounds out in a single pass. HVARs and miniguns supercede this but bring their own limitations to the table to do so.

I don't see any good reason not to allow someone to use 2 different weapons for 2 long bursts, though by a very strict reading you're correct, it could be construed to not allow it, you're correct.


Subject at hand:
Actually the only item I see in question here is how the 2nd gun's recoil comp applies...

Lets say you have 2 SMG's both with -3 RC.

Fire the left hand long... 6 bullets, 5 -3 == 2 uncompensated penalty first shot
Fire the right hand long... 6 bullets, 5 -??? == ??? uncompensated. (I'd say it'd be -5 uncompensated total on second shot -2 + -3)

I'd say that the RC on the second gun hasn't been used, and should be added. Which gives an advantage to having 2 guns, as opposed to firing one faster if you take the ambidexterity and other 2WF type stuff. You could effectively double your mag size, and double your available recoil comp w/ 2 weapons.

I think the FAQ is pretty clear that it's 1 recoil per bullet fired in IP, first one free.


Although, personally I feel SMGs should take double recoil comp penalties for 1 handed use... that's not RAW just personal experience.

How often you can fire what in a given round is always a weapon restriction, not a character restriction. So yes, if you are using two separate weapons, you can fire two long bursts without resorting to High Velocity weapons. Comparing it to Suppressive Fire does nothing Glyph, as they are different modes of fire. I can use the same logic to justify changing the rules to allow 20-round Full Auto fire instead of 9.

I also point you to read the Firearms section again. Yes, there is a line that says you can only fire one long burst in a turn, but if you bother to read everything else, it becomes quite clear it is addressing the weapons capabilities, not the characters. Context is everything.

Okay, I see where the read comes from in the quoted SR FAQ, and I agree with the interpretation here... but I note that the FAQ doesn't talk about using multiple weapons, and that's where the ambiguity comes from.

In a perfect world, the wording would be nailed down to remove that ambiguity... Dragon Magazine used to have a "Sage Advice" column for when these sort of rules questions came up in D&D. Is it possible to get the FAQ amended to specify that recoil applies regardless of whether you fire with one gun or two?

Or am I just way the hell off here, and it's intuitively obvious to everyone else? Wouldn't be the first time.

Because the rules say recoil is cumulative between two weapons while firing simultaneously, I am inclined to say that is not normally the case. Fire Weapon 1 and Weapon 2, the recoil is cumulative. Fire Weapon 1 then Weapon 2, the recoil is separate.

As far as I am concerned, firing two long bursts from two separate weapons (using a Simple Action for each) is perfectly allowable according to canon.

As for the FAQ, you always have the option of contacting Catalyst directly at info@shadowrun4.com.

Yes, but canon specifically states that Recoil is applicable for the entire Phase, which includes both Simple Actions (and a Free Action).

I am not arguing that. I am simply pointing out that it appears to be cumulative only with the weapon the recoil came from, unless the two weapons are fired simultaneously.

So if your firing pattern goes:
Weapon 1, then Weapon 1, the recoil is cumulative.
Weapon 1, then Weapon 2, the recoil is not cumulative. (Different Actions)
Weapon 1, and Weapon 2, the recoil is cumulative. (Same Action)

Musp:
I'd disagree heavily with that. The errata/FAQ gives nice clear rules about how those recoil charts were made. Quite frankly, I wish they just would have published that rather than muddling the issue unnecessarily. Without absolutely CLEAR text to the contrary, recoil is cumulative on the player per the entire phase.

Also, since each gun has seperate recoil comp. You're effectively doubling your available recoil compensation. Normally, the bigger problem on a second burst is that you've already run out or have very little recoil comp left. You've just eliminated that problem with 2.

Now toss in, that you really don't need ambidexterity if you don't mind taking an extra -2 penalty on one hand. That means anyone can do it.


On those grounds, alone I'd argue against you for balance reasons. I wouldn't want to see people getting off 2 penalty free long bursts in a round just because they happen to have 2 tricked out SMG's and ambidexterity, or only taking a -2 on the second. Not without them having to work at it, at least. (-5 RC per gun plus say some extra RC from strength).

The FAQ addresses only firing a single weapon. Because of this, it can be debated on if it is counting cumulative recoil for the weapon, or for the character.

As there are rules specifically addressing recoil for firing two weapons simultaneously, I am inclined to believe the FAQ is addressing cumulative recoil for a weapon - any other weapons the character is using are counted separately.

Hello Folks,

maybe we can get a developer to answer the questions? It would be perfect if Synner read this Topic and could answer the questions.

My group have had a long discussion about this 2 gun thing and we could found some rules to support the one way and some other rules to support the other way. Some players say it is perfectely legal to shoot 2 long burst with 2 weapons with a separate simple action each and some players disagree about that.

Its a difficult situation we have here. It would be perfect if a developer could help us out.

Best wishes and thank you again,
Meschler

As I pointed out (and so did Falconer), someone using two weapons already has the advantage of two weapons' worth of recoil compensators. Interpreting the rules to allow them to pile on even more advantages (recoil from the first weapon not carrying over to the second weapon, getting to fire two long bursts in one pass) is insane.

Yeah, I'm aware that suppressive fire is a different mode of fire. That's the whole point of saying it's a character restriction rather than a weapon restriction. Obviously, the weapon is capable of firing 20 round bursts. Characters cannot fire 20 round bursts in normal ranged combat because they are trying to fire controlled bursts. And you can only fire one long burst a pass if you are firing controlled bursts. I don't see having an automatic weapon in each hand improving your control - if anything, it would be the opposite, ambidexterity or not.

Honestly, I remember some AD&D campaigns where every fighter had two-weapon fighting and dual-wielded their double-specialized longswords. Ruling liberally on this would have the same effect in a Shadowrun game, only all of the NPCs would probably do it, too, since it's so much incredibly better than using one firearm, even without ambidexterity.

Myself I would houserule you get recoil compensation on both, could fire two long bursts (one from each weapon); however uncompensated recoil would carry over.

Related Question:

What would suppressive fire with a HV sub-mac in each hand look like? Maybe the best way to use two HV weapons is to NOT aim.

As far as I am concerned, there are no house rules in this statement.

More evidence to the cause that you can fire a long burst from each weapon is that in both the recoil description and the ranged modfiers table, it says that long bursts suffer -5 recoil first burst, and -6 for the second.

As far as the recoil carrying over... one only has to look at the ranged modifiers table. Its pretty simple. Is this the first long burst fired in the round? Ok, -5 penalty negated by RC of the weapon. Is this the second long burst fired? Add -6 to the penalty.

Though, interestingly enough, short bursts specifically state -2 for the first burst, and an additional -3 for the second, while long bursts merely state -5 for the first, and -6 for the second, not additional.

I definitely could see the dev's saying that separate weapons means separate recoil penalties.

Hrm... for now, in my games, I play as fortune does, but I can see arguements for either way.

Just like suppressive fire with 2 of any other SMG's... they'd roll twice as the area is doubly suppressed to avoid getting hit.

Ironically enough HVAR's only fire 20 rounds when used for suppressive fire just like a normal gun. Those rules remain unchanged.

Miniguns burn through 30 rounds and get an 50% increase in suppressive damage for it though.

I'm on page w/ Fortune and Tarantula here. (keep in mind it's possible to fully compensate all the recoil this way if you really trick out for this, gas3, grip, weight, high str, 2 weapons doubles your available recoil comp)

You can't suppressive fire with 2 guns, as its a complex action to do it with one.

I have to agree with the separate recoil per weapon group. It's my understanding that recoil primarily reflects barrel rise and shooting one weapon does not cause the second to rise.

Mind you, I've never fired anything with more recoil than a 20 lb pull, if that, bow in high school ... but that's my 2 nuyen in spite of, or because of, that ...

The -6 Recoil Modifier is in the case of the weapon being used with a long burst as the second simple action that round. I would be inclined to interpret the ruling in the same way as Fortune and others have mentioned.

But long bursts explicitly say that you can only fire one per pass.

Edit: Ahh, if you go short burst -2 then long burst -6. Got it.

Yes, you can. You just split your dice pool as normal for two-weapon combat.

No, you can't. That is a simple action to attack with two weapons at once by splitting your pool. It is a complex action to use suppressive fire. You can't make a simple action and a complex action in one turn, so you can't do it.

Yup letter of the RAW the only mention of splitting DP across to weapons is a using 1 simple action to make to regular attacks. Personally I'd allow a player to duplicate the mechanic for twin suppression.

I'd agree with applying the RC across each discharge of rounds over the pass. So a person firing two narrow long bursts, using two submachine guns modified with HVAR, would have a total of 4 discharges (inb4 lulz). Let's say they have RC 3.

First pool 1st gun: -2
First pool 2nd gun: -2
Second pool 2nd gun: -9
Second pool 2nd gun: -9

At least that's what I got from the reading, even if this isn't technically allowable due to rules minutate, there's not a lot of players on my end that would hit very much with those second pools, so all there doing is wasting ammo which is just fine with me.

-4 on both of the first pools; uncompensated recoil from each weapon affects both guns.
-16 on both of the second pools.

Firing two long bursts? p.143 BBB

Long Bursts
Long bursts use up 6 bullets each. Firing a long burst imposes a -5 dice pool modifier if it is the first burst fried that action phase, -6 if its the second. I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers if the recoil is -5 and you have 3 RC wouldn't it be -2. Unless you're counting the off weapon thing. Are you talking about full bursts? I'm not trying to be contrary but I don't understand.

Top of p142 BBB. "Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon apply to the other weapon."

That section refers to splitting your dice pool to fire two weapons in the same Simple Action.

And he was talking about firing two long bursts each on two HV weapons, unless I'm mistaken.

If I may direct you to pg 163 of arsenal

"It is possible, however, to fire a full-auto long burst simultaneously with another weapon, or even to fire long bursts with two weapons at the same time"

When wielding two weapons, you can fire two long-bursts a round, I don't think the rules get any cleaner then that.

I've always assumed that when firing two guns as the same time, they both suffer the same recoil penalties. If you fire them with two seperate actions, the first shot only suffers it's own penalty, while the other gun suffers from both.

Hi Folks,

first i want to thank you for all your answers.

The discussion in our gaming group goes exactely the same way. I have heared allmost the same arguments there (one part interpred the rules in this way the other part read it in an other way)

As ever, i have PM'ed FrankTrollmann and Synner and write a mail to the folks at info@shadowrun4.com for a definitiv answer. The first one who have answered me was FrankTrollman.

Here is his answer:



If my reading of his answer is correct it is possible to use two long bursts with a full-auto capable weapon (i have modified a FN 5-7C in such way, including personal grip and gas vent 3 for 5 points of recoil) According Frank there is now such thing like uncompensated recoil which carries over from the first to the second gun (this only counts for fireing two weapons simultaniously) and even the long burst from the second gun is considered a first shot for calculating recoil (which means -5 recoil per gun). So my character concept is possible.

I hope this helps other players too and i play it that way as long as synner or the folks from info@shadowrun4.com send me an answer to the same question i sent them and overrule Frank.

Thank you again for your help,

Best wishes,
Meschler

Like I said before, I'd do it just like this(^^^^), for semi-auto but I'd apply the -2 for switching targets to switching guns as well. Keep in mind that switching guns requires you to reacquire a new sight picture just as if you had switched targets, unless you are at point shooting range (call it 10 meters or less, though it's usually closer to 7 meters). But hey, that's just me. However, firing on full auto can actually push your whole body around, so I'd at least apply uncompensated recoil to the other gun if fired in the same IP.

Plus, I would never apply the recoil compensation from one gun's accessories to a different gun unless I actually pulled both triggers simultaneously. It just seems ridiculous to me.